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sr. member
Activity: 351
Merit: 250
I'm always grumpy in the morning.
.
December 19, 2013, 03:09:17 PM
#7
Which, even though you know it is not the case, market size is taken to mean that $Billion has been invested in Bitcoin, or $Trillion, etc... That is not how money works.

True. The same is also true for valuations of companies, some tech companies are now worth more than the GDP of small countries. But that doesn't mean they could ever be sold for that much - as soon as you start selling the price goes down on the rest of the shares.

"Market cap" is just a mental shortcut, a hypothetical estimate used to compare investments.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1010
Borsche
December 19, 2013, 03:07:49 PM
#6
That is some interesting calculation, thanks guys. Works out to about $600 price, which is actually where the price index stabilized after the correction. I fail to see the logical connection between these values, but it's something to look at nevertheless.

I would really be careful to take it as a fixed ratio. As a rough "overbought"/"oversold" indicator... perhaps. But as a fine grained price target? Hell no.

Of course, I'm saying it worked as a gravity spot for the swings this time, which tells something. Would be interesting to calc this metric for prior corrections, although I don't know where to find the historic volume data...
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
December 19, 2013, 02:49:47 PM
#5
That is some interesting calculation, thanks guys. Works out to about $600 price, which is actually where the price index stabilized after the correction. I fail to see the logical connection between these values, but it's something to look at nevertheless.

I would really be careful to take it as a fixed ratio. As a rough "overbought"/"oversold" indicator... perhaps. But as a fine grained price target? Hell no.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1010
Borsche
December 19, 2013, 02:40:29 PM
#4
That is some interesting calculation, thanks guys. Works out to about $600 price, which is actually where the price index stabilized after the correction. I fail to see the logical connection between these values, but it's something to look at nevertheless.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
December 19, 2013, 02:18:37 PM
#3
Nice find, Adrian-x.

Too bad, it looks like chodpaba is on hiatus again. I get the impression he (she) is most active during relatively uneventful periods, experimenting with new indicators to see which way the situation resolves. I guess from a theoretical point of view, "exciting" moments like the one now aren't that interesting -- plus, there's plenty of trading to do :D Anyway, consider posting more often again, chodpaba.

Re: (global) trade volume vs. market cap.

Total USD trading volume on the big 3 exchanges for the past 365 days (bitcoincharts data) (converted to USD for btcchina, assuming fixed rate of 0.15): 2.7B mtgox, 1.4B bitstamp, 2.4B btcchina. Note that some people dislike taking the trading volume at btcchina at face value because of the 0 trading fees, and perhaps they're right to a degree and btcchina's volume has to be slightly discounted, but probably not by much, so let's just add it all up for simplicity to: 6.5B USD.

Calculating market cap based on the slow 1d SMA100 across the big 3 = 414 USD, so ~5B market cap.

Taking the faster 1d SMA30 = 895 USD, we get a ~11B market cap.

Considering that we peaked at 1200 USD for a market cap of 14B USD, twice as much as the (approximate) global trading volume, a correction was perhaps no surprise.

* * *

[long-ish rant]

Chodpaba is right of course in ridiculing the (naive) idea that market cap (current unit price * total no. of units) somehow needs to correspond to the total amount (of USD) that had to be deposited at the exchanges and used for paying for BTC. It's a recurring theme on crackpot economy shows: "Why, if there's 1000 stocks, and you pay me 10 Dollar for one, then suddenly they're worth 10k USD, CREATED OUT OF THIN AIR. So obviously the stock market is a sham."

So he's right of course, but not entirely so: he's leaving out the part that there is in fact some subtle relation between the market cap and trading volume, and perhaps even between different types of trading volume (the point is simply that this relation doesn't need to be a 1:1 ratio). Example: In terms of trading volume, it makes no difference whether the same N participants keep trading the same USD and BTC back and forth, altering the price and the distribution of USD and BTC in the process, or whether a constant influx of new participants brings in new money. This is a somewhat artificial example of course: a constant influx of new investors will almost certainly yield a higher price and a higher volume, but at least in principle the same volume number could be based on a smaller "insular" group or growing group of investors. I think it is self-evident however that the two scenarios are not the same at all for the long-term price development...

Which is why indicators like CMF, PVT and OBV exist in the first place: the market cap cannot be taken at face volume, we don't have complete information on all market participants (on an individual level), so people have been struggling to come with ways to gauge how money enters (or leaves) the market for a long time. Those measures are somewhat crude (they all essentially say: if price rises, the volume is good, add it. if price falls, subtract it. minor differences apply, e.g. adding volume proportional to price change, but in principle that's what they do), but they probably have to be that way, too much information is missing.

I've been toying around with ideas how to do something with a similar goal in mind, gauging what I call 'money at stake'. One very preliminary idea takes into account not just the executed trades, but the order book as well. The obvious objections to the order book apply of course: incomplete picture of available funds, and no guarantee of sincerity. It still seems like a promising approach: an attempt that tries to determine "how much money is actually there", and "at which price it is willing to enter the market" cannot completely ignore the order book I believe.

[/long-ish rant]
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
December 18, 2013, 06:43:54 PM
#2

In the last year the total trade volume on Gox alone has been about $1,287,000,000. And the current Total_Bitcoin*Exchange_Rate is about $1,171,000,000. Is there some kind of connection between these two numbers? You bet there is.

How is this ratio looking about now?
jr. member
Activity: 57
Merit: 10
August 08, 2013, 06:50:15 PM
#1
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