(0 fee transactions) does amount matter when nodes reject tx?!

LoyceV

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Quote from: TheQuin on October 11, 2017, 02:31:13 AM

Although I don't claim to have any insight to Satoshi's reasoning for doing that I'd lean towards that he probably wanted zero fees transaction to be available.

The reason was to prioritize older coins over coins that are send again instantly. If your inputs were older, you're less likely to be spamming the network, so your priority would get higher.

I think I made my last 0 fee transaction around the beginning of this year. After having several of them stuck of 14 days, I gave up.

Quote from: pooya87 on October 11, 2017, 04:06:22 AM

i also believe that when mempool is empty and mining a block gives miners nearly $61,000 (big percentage of which is pure profit) the transactions must be free.

It's a pitty how big mining rewards are detrimental to Bitcoin. Miners earn millions of dollars per day, that money is taken out of the Bitcoin ecosystem to pay for ASICs and power, and gives miners completely different interests than common Bitcoin users like you and me.

TheQuin

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Quote from: pooya87 on October 11, 2017, 04:06:22 AM

as far as i know, the purpose of fees are the following:
1. compensate miners for the work they are doing in case the block reward was small enough that it couldn't cover the cost of mining
2. prevent spam attacks sustainability as we saw multiple times.

Yes, I fully understand the purpose of fees. The priority transactions were for aged coins in single input and output of over 0.01 and only a limited part of the block was set aside for them. Obviously, the 0.01 value would make it far too expensive for anyone to spam the network and the aging prevents the same coin being sent to a from a spammer's own addresses repeatedly.
I was just pointing out the history as an alternative viewpoint on whether Satoshi intended there to be a limited number of free transactions available. I'm of the opinion that he probably did but many people dissagree, that's fine with me, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

pooya87

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Quote from: LoyceV on October 11, 2017, 02:21:55 AM

~ Is there any specific reason why you want it to be zero-fee?

Not, really. just testing stuff and i am very curious to know why that particular tx is being rejected!

i also believe that when mempool is empty and mining a block gives miners nearly $61,000 (big percentage of which is pure profit) the transactions must be free.

Quote from: TheQuin on October 11, 2017, 02:31:13 AM

The Bitcoin network, as originally implemented, specifically set aside part of the block for priority transactions with zero fees to be included. Although I don't claim to have any insight to Satoshi's reasoning for doing that I'd lean towards that he probably wanted zero fees transaction to be available.

as far as i know, the purpose of fees are the following:
1. compensate miners for the work they are doing in case the block reward was small enough that it couldn't cover the cost of mining
2. prevent spam attacks sustainability as we saw multiple times.

@buwaytress
i am still using Electrum, however i create the raw transaction myself and ask Electrum to just sign it. just a workaround to force Electrum to sign 0 fees without checking it and preventing the creation. i usually broadcast it there too, without any issues.
but that smaller one is still being rejected because of priority!

buwaytress

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Hi pooya, glad your tx went through. I too like "testing" 0 fee spends with extremely low priority txs (usually when I just want to consolidate a large number of outputs into a single input... regular spring cleaning of my wallet) and used to be able to do it with Electrum until earlier this year when it seems to enforce a min fee, though I still get away with around 1 satoshi per byte fees.

Several weeks ago, (can't find the post), someone here did show that it was possible, even if I couldn't replicate it. I can't understand why yours couldn't be pushed.

As Loyce mentions, transaction priority was removed. I started using Bitcoin towards the end of 2016 when even Blockchain.info still displayed tx priority values. This this explains how it eventually got pulled in 0.14: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9179

TheQuin

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Quote from: Thekool1s on October 11, 2017, 12:06:33 AM

Well i believe Bitcoin was never intended to be a zero fee currency. As far as i know, bitcoin transactions were called almost "Free" because of low fees, But i would like to know the technical side of aspect for this 0 fee not getting pushed. In theory we should be able to broadcast it. From which websites have you tried to push this transaction? Try a few of them and see if you get any success.

The Bitcoin network, as originally implemented, specifically set aside part of the block for priority transactions with zero fees to be included. Although I don't claim to have any insight to Satoshi's reasoning for doing that I'd lean towards that he probably wanted zero fees transaction to be available.

LoyceV

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Quote from: pooya87 on October 10, 2017, 11:19:07 PM

Quote from: LoyceV on October 10, 2017, 04:35:58 AM

~
Your best option now would be to double spend the transaction with a fee.

my issue is not with confirmation and fees!
i can not even broadcast the transaction, it is being rejected by the nodes.

Sorry I overlooked this part, I was assuming you wanted to re-broadcast an existing transaction.
Is there any specific reason why you want it to be zero-fee?

pooya87

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Quote from: Thekool1s on October 11, 2017, 12:06:33 AM

From which websites have you tried to push this transaction?

- electrum
- most of the block explorers
- directly to different nodes by connecting to them and sending them a "tx" message.

Thekool1s

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Well i believe Bitcoin was never intended to be a zero fee currency. As far as i know, bitcoin transactions were called almost "Free" because of low fees, But i would like to know the technical side of aspect for this 0 fee not getting pushed. In theory we should be able to broadcast it. From which websites have you tried to push this transaction? Try a few of them and see if you get any success.

pooya87

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Quote from: LoyceV on October 10, 2017, 04:35:58 AM

~
Your best option now would be to double spend the transaction with a fee.

my issue is not with confirmation and fees!
i can not even broadcast the transaction, it is being rejected by the nodes.

LoyceV

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Quote from: pooya87 on October 10, 2017, 01:07:55 AM

A transaction was safe to send without fees if these conditions were met:

It is smaller than 1,000 bytes.
All outputs are 0.01 BTC or larger.
Its priority is large enough (see link below)

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Priority_transactions

"Coin days destroyed" is no longer used as a priority mechanism since fees went up and miners started ignoring it. As far as I know, it has officially been removed recently. Too bad, because I loved sending free transactions once Bitcoin Core labeled it as "medium priority". To get "medium high" priority would need 1000 times more coin days, but indeed: higher amounts used to get higher priority.

Your best option now would be to double spend the transaction with a fee.

Bitfort

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Quote from: pooya87 on October 10, 2017, 01:07:55 AM

...
meh, i am a beginner and need help Wink

...

legendary beginner ... sounds hillarious Cheesy

( no offense, I'm aware the rank is not about the tech. knowledge but about how long you are here )

Quote from: pooya87 on October 10, 2017, 01:07:55 AM

...
i was thinking there is more to it that the wiki and these other links say since sometimes the wiki is not exactly updated according to latest versions. specially since this is about rejecting the transaction not mining it. i believe it has something to do with the settings you put for "relaying transactions"

That's why I would be asking in technical section as there is much more tech savvy members and will give you answer based on most recent data.
I understand the beginner&help section to be for beginners "dumb" questions but yours is pretty technical.

pooya87

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Quote from: Bitfort on October 10, 2017, 12:47:28 AM

AFAIK the fee size is determined by number of inputs and outputs only.

yes, i am well aware of that Wink

Quote

But there is also thing called priority (where the tx amount is indeed involved ... might be this case).

that limit is 0.01 BTC or larger. which is why i mentioned my transaction amount in OP.

A transaction was safe to send without fees if these conditions were met:

It is smaller than 1,000 bytes.
All outputs are 0.01 BTC or larger.
Its priority is large enough (see link below)

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Priority_transactions

Quote

BTW I thing you should be asking in other section ( maybe Technical Support ?? )

meh, i am a beginner and need help Wink

Quote

EDIT: seems to me it is about the amount. See:

Quote

...
If the coins you're spending are too small or too new then your transaction won't qualify as free. Each transaction is assigned a priority, determined by the age, size, and number of its input
...
the single large input that was included with them was big enough to bring its priority up enough to make it free.
...

source: bitcoinfees.com

what the site says is a better explanation of what the Wiki says. but it is the same. those conditions should be met for it to be free. and this is an old thing by the way. some miners have not been honoring this for a while (like F2Pool for example) but some others have been and still do.
also as i said the latest version of bitcoin core removed this completely!

i was thinking there is more to it that the wiki and these other links say since sometimes the wiki is not exactly updated according to latest versions. specially since this is about rejecting the transaction not mining it. i believe it has something to do with the settings you put for "relaying transactions"

Bitfort

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AFAIK the fee size is determined by number of inputs and outputs only. But there is also thing called priority (where the tx amount is indeed involved ... might be this case).

BTW I thing you should be asking in other section ( maybe Technical Support ?? )

EDIT: seems to me it is about the amount. See:

Quote

...
If the coins you're spending are too small or too new then your transaction won't qualify as free. Each transaction is assigned a priority, determined by the age, size, and number of its input
...
the single large input that was included with them was big enough to bring its priority up enough to make it free.
...

source: bitcoinfees.com

pooya87

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for the past 10 days i have been trying to broadcast a tx with 0 fees and it is being rejected.
i can't share it for privacy reasons but it is a normal transaction has 1 input and 1 output.
the coin age is ~1000 blocks
amount is >0.01 & <0.1BTC
fee 0
* this is being rejected by all nodes that i have tried. at first i thought it is the new change in Core v 0.15.0.1 regarding minrelaytxfee and removing priority,... but even core v 0.14 rejected me
also tried blockchain.info and other explorer's push option and didn't work (all rejected me).
hence the question: does amount matter?

p.s.
https://blockchain.info/tx/8f85f5b941d02c0c249dd6445f73557d4c1838c16b9f9220d63ec84af983ce90
went through like a charm! amount is 0.157BTC pushed using https://blockchain.info/pushtx but pushing the above tx gives me the following error:

Code:

Validation Error: Insufficient fee. Minimum fee is 1 sat/B.

no node rejected it either!

Topic: (0 fee transactions) does amount matter when nodes reject tx?! (Read 707 times)