Topic: 0% house edge, rake and comission (Read 2263 times)

Quote from: MinerHQ on March 30, 2018, 07:27:33 PM

But the thing is there are gamblers that can't stop playing even if they have won a lot already and think they can make more out of their winnings but end up losing in the end.

You are assuming that they are losing to prove that they lose.

Just because they are wagering does not mean that they are going to lose. Just because they are greedy and continue to bet does not mean that they will lose. And if you are considering only one player, then the variance is high and you will deviate from the mean of 0.

Basically, your argument boils down to this: human emotions cause greed, which means a higher wagered amount, resulting in the loss of money.

This may be true with games that have house edge, but it's not true in the case of zero-edge games. And not only that, but you are also assuming that the casino has enough bankroll to cover that of the player.

From my cursory reading of your conversations, I would agree with actmyname. The fact is that indeed there are those that will get greedy but probably there would equally be those that win and takes home the money thus resulting to probably an equal gain and losses for the casino. Mathematically speaking, this is indeed a 0 end game since we are rolling an infinite number of games and this means that the closer we reach infinity the more likely the results will be 0 in this case. Hence, indeed a casino with 0% house edge is just wasting their time and server hosting.

It's possible to obtain the hosting fees through donations from happy customers Cheesy

Probably by displaying a messege asking for a donation to people that won significant amounts of money and placed a withdrawal.

What is the point of running a site and depends on donations to maintain a site? I don't know how many winners are ready to donate their money.

I don't think any normal business person does this mistake without keeping an option to bring some profits for them for the time and risk they take to run the site.

I don't think a gambling site can just run on donations. As a gambler, I would have in the back of my head " I won this money fair and square without the casino even giving anything back to me when or if I lose on my bets. So why should I donate?" Since the casino doesn't really care about the gambler if they lose, so why would the gamblers care if the casino closes down? The gambler will only care about his deposit and the winnings, he could care less about the casino.

When we do talk about donation then it wont be a good idea and ive seen 0% house edge offerings in the past but it didn't last long and they do change it for sometime.They need to earn income because having a gambling site would really require maintenance,manpower,bankroll and profits normally. Rakeback and commission I don't see these things would be effective to last on longer runs.This would be only good for a limited duration promotions.

LuanX3

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Quote from: iluvbitcoins on March 30, 2018, 04:49:37 AM

Quote from: michkima on March 29, 2018, 04:47:54 PM

Quote from: actmyname on March 29, 2018, 03:28:05 PM

Quote from: iluvbitcoins on March 30, 2018, 04:49:37 AM

But the thing is there are gamblers that can't stop playing even if they have won a lot already and think they can make more out of their winnings but end up losing in the end.

You are assuming that they are losing to prove that they lose.

Just because they are wagering does not mean that they are going to lose. Just because they are greedy and continue to bet does not mean that they will lose. And if you are considering only one player, then the variance is high and you will deviate from the mean of 0.

Basically, your argument boils down to this: human emotions cause greed, which means a higher wagered amount, resulting in the loss of money.

This may be true with games that have house edge, but it's not true in the case of zero-edge games. And not only that, but you are also assuming that the casino has enough bankroll to cover that of the player.

From my cursory reading of your conversations, I would agree with actmyname. The fact is that indeed there are those that will get greedy but probably there would equally be those that win and takes home the money thus resulting to probably an equal gain and losses for the casino. Mathematically speaking, this is indeed a 0 end game since we are rolling an infinite number of games and this means that the closer we reach infinity the more likely the results will be 0 in this case. Hence, indeed a casino with 0% house edge is just wasting their time and server hosting.

It's possible to obtain the hosting fees through donations from happy customers Cheesy

Probably by displaying a messege asking for a donation to people that won significant amounts of money and placed a withdrawal.

What is the point of running a site and depends on donations to maintain a site? I don't know how many winners are ready to donate their money.

I don't think any normal business person does this mistake without keeping an option to bring some profits for them for the time and risk they take to run the site.

I don't think a gambling site can just run on donations. As a gambler, I would have in the back of my head " I won this money fair and square without the casino even giving anything back to me when or if I lose on my bets. So why should I donate?" Since the casino doesn't really care about the gambler if they lose, so why would the gamblers care if the casino closes down? The gambler will only care about his deposit and the winnings, he could care less about the casino.

MinerHQ

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Quote from: michkima on March 29, 2018, 04:47:54 PM

Quote from: actmyname on March 29, 2018, 03:28:05 PM

Quote from: Black_bl on March 18, 2018, 03:20:29 PM

But the thing is there are gamblers that can't stop playing even if they have won a lot already and think they can make more out of their winnings but end up losing in the end.

You are assuming that they are losing to prove that they lose.

Just because they are wagering does not mean that they are going to lose. Just because they are greedy and continue to bet does not mean that they will lose. And if you are considering only one player, then the variance is high and you will deviate from the mean of 0.

Basically, your argument boils down to this: human emotions cause greed, which means a higher wagered amount, resulting in the loss of money.

This may be true with games that have house edge, but it's not true in the case of zero-edge games. And not only that, but you are also assuming that the casino has enough bankroll to cover that of the player.

From my cursory reading of your conversations, I would agree with actmyname. The fact is that indeed there are those that will get greedy but probably there would equally be those that win and takes home the money thus resulting to probably an equal gain and losses for the casino. Mathematically speaking, this is indeed a 0 end game since we are rolling an infinite number of games and this means that the closer we reach infinity the more likely the results will be 0 in this case. Hence, indeed a casino with 0% house edge is just wasting their time and server hosting.

It's possible to obtain the hosting fees through donations from happy customers Cheesy

Probably by displaying a messege asking for a donation to people that won significant amounts of money and placed a withdrawal.

What is the point of running a site and depends on donations to maintain a site? I don't know how many winners are ready to donate their money.

I don't think any normal business person does this mistake without keeping an option to bring some profits for them for the time and risk they take to run the site.

wxa7115

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Bitcoin is GOD

Hey players,
I was looking for opportunity between casinos and found two crypto project which claim that have 0% fees on games, named zeroedge and edgeless. Do you have any experience with them? I asked in their telegram groups, how their concept works, they answered me that their concept is based on their own cryptocurrency, that will grow with number of players and also that not every game will be with 0% fees. I still don't know if it's enough, maybe blockchain will spare some money, on the other hand, they should have big reserve to be able to run. What do you think, will these project successful?

It is simply not possible to run a casino like that, remember everything you see at the casino from the webpage, to the servers, to the customer service and to the games themselves are not free for the owner of the casino and I'm pretty sure they are not making available all those games just to lose money, so when I see a casino claiming they don't have a house edge that makes me suspicious.

actmyname

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Spear the bees

Quote from: iluvbitcoins on March 30, 2018, 04:49:37 AM

It's possible to obtain the hosting fees through donations from happy customers Cheesy

Probably by displaying a messege asking for a donation to people that won significant amounts of money and placed a withdrawal.

Surviving off donations is not a good business idea. Maybe if you're trying to be non-profit like Wikipedia, but then you still have to have a large enough bankroll for a seemingly pointless investment. Would you seriously think about having millions of dollars in a casino where you don't even have any idea if you'll profit in the future?

iluvbitcoins

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Freedom&Honor

Quote from: michkima on March 29, 2018, 04:47:54 PM

Quote from: actmyname on March 29, 2018, 03:28:05 PM

Quote from: adaseb on March 30, 2018, 01:21:39 AM

But the thing is there are gamblers that can't stop playing even if they have won a lot already and think they can make more out of their winnings but end up losing in the end.

You are assuming that they are losing to prove that they lose.

Just because they are wagering does not mean that they are going to lose. Just because they are greedy and continue to bet does not mean that they will lose. And if you are considering only one player, then the variance is high and you will deviate from the mean of 0.

Basically, your argument boils down to this: human emotions cause greed, which means a higher wagered amount, resulting in the loss of money.

This may be true with games that have house edge, but it's not true in the case of zero-edge games. And not only that, but you are also assuming that the casino has enough bankroll to cover that of the player.

From my cursory reading of your conversations, I would agree with actmyname. The fact is that indeed there are those that will get greedy but probably there would equally be those that win and takes home the money thus resulting to probably an equal gain and losses for the casino. Mathematically speaking, this is indeed a 0 end game since we are rolling an infinite number of games and this means that the closer we reach infinity the more likely the results will be 0 in this case. Hence, indeed a casino with 0% house edge is just wasting their time and server hosting.

It's possible to obtain the hosting fees through donations from happy customers Cheesy

Probably by displaying a messege asking for a donation to people that won significant amounts of money and placed a withdrawal.

actmyname

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Spear the bees

Well consider a different and yet similiar scenario.

Consider the stock market or even the Bitcoin markets in the last 2 years.

We had crazy bull markets but yet people are complaining about not making any money.

The stock market has a house edge that's actually edged towards them since with inflation stocks usually increase in value.

Yet people still struggle and can't make any money.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Stock market exchanges have fees, which mean the players are losing (together). If you disregard the fees, then it becomes a zero-sum game which would explain why people complain about not making money. At the root of it, this is just like playing poker.

But what does anything with an edge have to do with our argument about zero-edge games?

adaseb

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Quote from: michkima on March 29, 2018, 04:47:54 PM

Quote from: actmyname on March 29, 2018, 03:28:05 PM

Quote from: actmyname on March 29, 2018, 03:28:05 PM

But the thing is there are gamblers that can't stop playing even if they have won a lot already and think they can make more out of their winnings but end up losing in the end.

You are assuming that they are losing to prove that they lose.

Just because they are wagering does not mean that they are going to lose. Just because they are greedy and continue to bet does not mean that they will lose. And if you are considering only one player, then the variance is high and you will deviate from the mean of 0.

Basically, your argument boils down to this: human emotions cause greed, which means a higher wagered amount, resulting in the loss of money.

This may be true with games that have house edge, but it's not true in the case of zero-edge games. And not only that, but you are also assuming that the casino has enough bankroll to cover that of the player.

From my cursory reading of your conversations, I would agree with actmyname. The fact is that indeed there are those that will get greedy but probably there would equally be those that win and takes home the money thus resulting to probably an equal gain and losses for the casino. Mathematically speaking, this is indeed a 0 end game since we are rolling an infinite number of games and this means that the closer we reach infinity the more likely the results will be 0 in this case. Hence, indeed a casino with 0% house edge is just wasting their time and server hosting.

Well consider a different and yet similiar scenario.

Consider the stock market or even the Bitcoin markets in the last 2 years.

We had crazy bull markets but yet people are complaining about not making any money.

The stock market has a house edge that's actually edged towards them since with inflation stocks usually increase in value.

Yet people still struggle and can't make any money.

michkima

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But the thing is there are gamblers that can't stop playing even if they have won a lot already and think they can make more out of their winnings but end up losing in the end.

You are assuming that they are losing to prove that they lose.

Just because they are wagering does not mean that they are going to lose. Just because they are greedy and continue to bet does not mean that they will lose. And if you are considering only one player, then the variance is high and you will deviate from the mean of 0.

Basically, your argument boils down to this: human emotions cause greed, which means a higher wagered amount, resulting in the loss of money.

This may be true with games that have house edge, but it's not true in the case of zero-edge games. And not only that, but you are also assuming that the casino has enough bankroll to cover that of the player.

From my cursory reading of your conversations, I would agree with actmyname. The fact is that indeed there are those that will get greedy but probably there would equally be those that win and takes home the money thus resulting to probably an equal gain and losses for the casino. Mathematically speaking, this is indeed a 0 end game since we are rolling an infinite number of games and this means that the closer we reach infinity the more likely the results will be 0 in this case. Hence, indeed a casino with 0% house edge is just wasting their time and server hosting.

actmyname

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Spear the bees

Quote from: actmyname on March 28, 2018, 03:28:59 AM

But the thing is there are gamblers that can't stop playing even if they have won a lot already and think they can make more out of their winnings but end up losing in the end.

You are assuming that they are losing to prove that they lose.

Just because they are wagering does not mean that they are going to lose. Just because they are greedy and continue to bet does not mean that they will lose. And if you are considering only one player, then the variance is high and you will deviate from the mean of 0.

Basically, your argument boils down to this: human emotions cause greed, which means a higher wagered amount, resulting in the loss of money.

This may be true with games that have house edge, but it's not true in the case of zero-edge games. And not only that, but you are also assuming that the casino has enough bankroll to cover that of the player.

LuanX3

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Quote from: LuanX3 on March 27, 2018, 07:06:40 AM

It does change it. Theory is different from actual. Again, the equation does not factor in human emotions since it is an outside factor. In a perfect world, if the gambler and the casino play an infinite number of games without any other factor then yes both will get 1.00. But the fact is that you still have to factor in human greed and the limits. Well, I guess this is just going in circles and we both agree to disagree.

No, you are going in circles by begging the question and you do not understand the extent of my argument.

Greed does not matter. Individual profit does not matter. It is the total profit of all the players vs. the casino that does matter which is expected to be 0.

So a player gets greedy. There are two outcomes: they win the bet or they lose the bet. The expected profit is 0 from both sides. Thus, as a long-term investment, nothing happens and the casino wastes money from server hosting.

And again, I go back to my argument that it still does not incorporate human emotions. Math is math, yes. In a perfect scenario the game will end in 0. But the thing is there are gamblers that can't stop playing even if they have won a lot already and think they can make more out of their winnings but end up losing in the end.

BTCevo

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Quote from: veleten on March 26, 2018, 01:16:48 PM

Quote from: adaseb on March 28, 2018, 03:41:51 AM

We can even see negative house edge websites !
These are the faucet. I'm thinking in particular of http://www.freebitco.in

Their business model relies on advertising, so the games are just giving BTC away.
It's very hard to get some decent amount of money. You can win more on a dice site.

If some organization find a right balance between income, profits and expenses, we can have very interesting free games.

oh that is one bad example for a negative house edge
freebitcoin is a faucet+gambling site,their dice game has one of the highest HE out of all the dice sites
it is 5% and it is there to cover the faucet expenses
also they do not have advertisment as of lately as in banner or text ads
don't think you visted their site lately
in any case, 0% house edge is sustainable in some cases (PVP,for example) but I don't trust websites like that

Yes this is indeed true, I believe there are no site that offer this huge on their house edge. Only freebitco.in that can offer this huge and top of that, they also give very huge amount of lottery every single week so I think it is worth for them. I ever ask one dice admin why they can't provide such a huge lottery on their site and what do they say? If you want me to increase the house edge then I will give you even more lotttery prizes

And btw let me clear this thing, they purely do not get income from banners or any ads, only from their hi-lo games which is the highest among all

actmyname

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Spear the bees

If someone buys some scratch tickets and loses, they lost their money. If someone buys some scratch tickets and wins, they buy more scratch tickets and lose their money anyways.

You are not taking the sample size of the entire field.

Let P(X) = probability of X result, E(X) = expected value, L = loss, W = win

You're outlining the following two cases: someone buys scratch tickets and loses, someone buys scratch tickets and wins (and then buys more scratch tickets).

Thus, we have (assuming 50-50 with 0% house edge)
Case 1: P(L) = 0.5
Case 2: P(W->L) = 0.5

That's not the case.

In reality, there is an infinite number of cases from your proposal of "greed."

Case 1: P(W) = 0.5 (Player wins 1 unit)
Case 2: P(L) = 0.5 (Player loses 1 unit)
E(X) = 0

Case 1.1: P(WL) = 0.25 (Player wins 0 units)
Case 1.2: P(WW) = 0.25 (Player wins 1 unit)
Case 2.1: P(LW) = 0.25 (Player wins 0 units)
Case 2.2: P(LL) = 0.25 (Player loses 1 unit)
E(X) = 0

We can continue infinitely but when you look at it, no matter how many bets the player does (i.e. total amount wagered) there is an expected profit of 0.

You keep assuming that the players lose. That's the problem in your argument. It's like trying to say that 1 = 2 by assuming that 1 = 2. That's begging the question.

adaseb

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Quote from: actmyname on March 28, 2018, 03:28:59 AM

Quote from: LuanX3 on March 27, 2018, 07:06:40 AM

It does change it. Theory is different from actual. Again, the equation does not factor in human emotions since it is an outside factor. In a perfect world, if the gambler and the casino play an infinite number of games without any other factor then yes both will get 1.00. But the fact is that you still have to factor in human greed and the limits. Well, I guess this is just going in circles and we both agree to disagree.

No, you are going in circles by begging the question and you do not understand the extent of my argument.

Greed does not matter. Individual profit does not matter. It is the total profit of all the players vs. the casino that does matter which is expected to be 0.

So a player gets greedy. There are two outcomes: they win the bet or they lose the bet. The expected profit is 0 from both sides. Thus, as a long-term investment, nothing happens and the casino wastes money from server hosting.

I get what you are saying however you are forgetting this.

If someone buys some scratch tickets and loses, they lost their money.
If someone buys some scratch tickets and wins, they buy more scratch tickets and lose their money anyways.

So fear and greed do play a type of roll.

With 0% house edge however can be overcome by greed and fear by just making an autobot which doesn't feel emotions .

actmyname

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Spear the bees

Quote from: LuanX3 on March 27, 2018, 07:06:40 AM

It does change it. Theory is different from actual. Again, the equation does not factor in human emotions since it is an outside factor. In a perfect world, if the gambler and the casino play an infinite number of games without any other factor then yes both will get 1.00. But the fact is that you still have to factor in human greed and the limits. Well, I guess this is just going in circles and we both agree to disagree.

No, you are going in circles by begging the question and you do not understand the extent of my argument.

Greed does not matter. Individual profit does not matter. It is the total profit of all the players vs. the casino that does matter which is expected to be 0.

So a player gets greedy. There are two outcomes: they win the bet or they lose the bet. The expected profit is 0 from both sides. Thus, as a long-term investment, nothing happens and the casino wastes money from server hosting.

LuanX3

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Quote from: actmyname on March 24, 2018, 10:37:17 PM

Quote from: LuanX3 on March 24, 2018, 06:36:34 PM

there is still a chance these kinds of casinos can exist and make a profit.

I'm not denying that they can make a profit. Just that they are not profitable. There's a difference between winning at gambling and having a gambling game be winning for the player.

There is no argument to be had here since you're simply saying that casinos can get 'lucky' to deviate from the mean and make some profit. Again, begging the question.

Human emotions/other factors don't change the outcome of the wager. If the edge is 0%, the ev for both the casino and player are 1.00. That's it.

It does change it. Theory is different from actual. Again, the equation does not factor in human emotions since it is an outside factor. In a perfect world, if the gambler and the casino play an infinite number of games without any other factor then yes both will get 1.00. But the fact is that you still have to factor in human greed and the limits. Well, I guess this is just going in circles and we both agree to disagree.

veleten

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Quote from: mOgliE on March 22, 2018, 08:38:45 AM

We can even see negative house edge websites !
These are the faucet. I'm thinking in particular of http://www.freebitco.in

Their business model relies on advertising, so the games are just giving BTC away.
It's very hard to get some decent amount of money. You can win more on a dice site.

If some organization find a right balance between income, profits and expenses, we can have very interesting free games.

oh that is one bad example for a negative house edge
freebitcoin is a faucet+gambling site,their dice game has one of the highest HE out of all the dice sites
it is 5% and it is there to cover the faucet expenses
also they do not have advertisment as of lately as in banner or text ads
don't think you visted their site lately
in any case, 0% house edge is sustainable in some cases (PVP,for example) but I don't trust websites like that

Black_bl

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Quote from: Black_bl on March 18, 2018, 03:20:29 PM

Hey players,
I was looking for opportunity between casinos and found two crypto project which claim that have 0% fees on games, named zeroedge and edgeless. Do you have any experience with them? I asked in their telegram groups, how their concept works, they answered me that their concept is based on their own cryptocurrency, that will grow with number of players and also that not every game will be with 0% fees. I still don't know if it's enough, maybe blockchain will spare some money, on the other hand, they should have big reserve to be able to run. What do you think, will these project successful?

There is no need to experiment such projects.

Let's be clear a casino is made to make money. No one creates a casino just for the fun.
So if they "claim" they have 0% fee, means 0% house edge... How do they earn money?
Of course tons of casinos sporadically drop their house edge to 0 for like 1 hour just to bring more players, but that's like the faucets it's just a marketing operation.

If a project claims to have 0% house edge you can be sure that they'll either run with your money or simply cheat on the house edge xD

I'm not sure friend if there isn't a need. From the beginning, people in crypto try to achieve widespread adoption. I personally think that this could be the right way, almost everyone from us bet in lotteries, is has involved in poker or sports betting and gambling. If you provide people a way how they can using crypto in simplified way, there will use it if they think that this approach will have advantage them (spare money). There a few projects dealing with zero transaction fees, these projects based on DAG have a problem with centralization their nodes in early stage, this could be solution for them, how obtain enough people to their ecosystem.
How do they earn money?
1) advertisement as we mentioned in this thread
2) casino will own tokens, they future earnings will flow from their tokens (bankroll can be created initial capital or venture capital or ICO)
3) you definitely don't have to have ALL games with 0% house edge, commissions, rakes
There could be plenty settings how set this system to be profitable

Casino_Guide

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In general, it sounds too good to be true. What is the business idea it the house edge is zero? Even if you don't pay any fees to them (how do they make money?)
There are a lot of questions that need to be answered before you could go into a project like that...

actmyname

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Spear the bees

Quote from: LuanX3 on March 24, 2018, 06:36:34 PM

there is still a chance these kinds of casinos can exist and make a profit.

I'm not denying that they can make a profit. Just that they are not profitable. There's a difference between winning at gambling and having a gambling game be winning for the player.

There is no argument to be had here since you're simply saying that casinos can get 'lucky' to deviate from the mean and make some profit. Again, begging the question.

Human emotions/other factors don't change the outcome of the wager. If the edge is 0%, the ev for both the casino and player are 1.00. That's it.

LuanX3

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Quote from: actmyname on March 22, 2018, 11:04:12 PM

Quote from: LuanX3 on March 22, 2018, 10:41:52 PM

But let's assume 10% of the players do get greedy and try to win back everything and fail, then that means the casino will be in profits from those 10%. Of course we can assume as well that there would be players the profit from the casino, but theoretically it would still be hard to defeat the casino with the limits in place.

Then, in this case, you are assuming that the variance is in the casino's favor. Expected value changes not based on the bet limits, nor the strategy. You are assuming that the casino has profited off players to prove that the casino is profitable. That is begging the question and is invalid.

Expected value is absolute.

Mathematically it is absolute and in a perfect scenario it will happen. But the fact is that it does not put into equation human emotions and other factors that greatly will change the outcome of the bets in the whole scenario. Indeed that 0% house edge will not be as profitable as the ones with house edge, but I am just disputing the argument that there is still a chance these kinds of casinos can exist and make a profit.

actmyname

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Spear the bees

Quote from: LuanX3 on March 22, 2018, 10:41:52 PM

But let's assume 10% of the players do get greedy and try to win back everything and fail, then that means the casino will be in profits from those 10%. Of course we can assume as well that there would be players the profit from the casino, but theoretically it would still be hard to defeat the casino with the limits in place.

Then, in this case, you are assuming that the variance is in the casino's favor. Expected value changes not based on the bet limits, nor the strategy. You are assuming that the casino has profited off players to prove that the casino is profitable. That is begging the question and is invalid.

Expected value is absolute.

LuanX3

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Quote from: actmyname on March 22, 2018, 09:27:29 AM

Quote from: LuanX3 on March 22, 2018, 04:07:00 AM

Theoretically, it is possible for a gambling site to profit from a 0% house edge gambling game. There are two reasons why, first is bet size limits and the house having more money than the player.

False. The rest of your post with the scenario does not matter.

It doesn't matter whether there are bet limits or if the house has more money than any given player (or heck, even all the players). If they bet some amount, they have an equal chance of winning and losing. That's it.

Greed doesn't matter. They could still very well win all their bets or lose all their bets. Once you get past this, it's easy to understand that with variance, martingale can end up with a player busting but when you consider the entire space of players (we'll call this S), it's different.

The expected value of the amount that S is returned is going to be 1. And this value is equivalent to the amount that the house gets: 1.

If statistically the house makes no money on each bet, how can you expect to profit regularly?
Hoping that individual players get greedy doesn't help because of the very question: what if they win? There isn't a house edge to make the chance of them losing more likely.

But the fact is that they cannot go over the bet limit. So in cases of martin gale they cannot perfectly use it.

It is correct that we cannot assume that every player will be greedy and they will gamble every penny they have until they lose, but the fact is that there will be players that will get greedy and try and chase their losses.

Assuming we get 1:1 losses and wins for the casinos and the players. With an expected value of 0, as you say. But let's assume 10% of the players do get greedy and try to win back everything and fail, then that means the casino will be in profits from those 10%. Of course we can assume as well that there would be players the profit from the casino, but theoretically it would still be hard to defeat the casino with the limits in place.

Vitolife

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Quote from: LuanX3 on March 22, 2018, 04:07:00 AM

Quote from: adaseb on March 22, 2018, 12:14:37 AM

Basically if a site has permantely zero house edge, I would steer clear. How are they making a profit?

It's acceptable for a site to have a promo where they have 0% house edge for a short while. However having it permantely it makes no sense.

Hence it might be a scam of some sort.

Theoretically, it is possible for a gambling site to profit from a 0% house edge gambling game. There are two reasons why, first is bet size limits and the house having more money than the player.

Imagine a situation, where a gambling does a martin gale system bets and the casino has a max bet of 1 BTC and lastly the gambler bets at 50% with 0.01BTC per bet. The scenario is that he cannot win against the house since there is still that chance that he will have a losing streak long enough to deplete his bankroll or reach the bet limit.

0.01
0.02
0.04
0.08
0.16
0.32
0.64
1.00

The gambler only needs to lose 8 times to reach the max. Even if you simulate this in a computer game with a lower starting bet or higher limits, it will result to a time that the gambler will have a long losing streak that would empty his bankroll.

The only problem is that the casino will not earn as much as the other casinos with house edge.

Yes, agree with this analysis. Even if the casino will not earn as much per player as casinos with house edge / rake, they will definitely attract more players - du to the fact their games will be viewed as fair play and there is no entry barrier with the rake/comission. It corresponds with their whitepaper where they expect to increase the token value with growing number of users. I expect, they will be able to raise quite substantial ammount during the ICO

actmyname

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Spear the bees

Quote from: LuanX3 on March 22, 2018, 04:07:00 AM

Theoretically, it is possible for a gambling site to profit from a 0% house edge gambling game. There are two reasons why, first is bet size limits and the house having more money than the player.

False. The rest of your post with the scenario does not matter.

It doesn't matter whether there are bet limits or if the house has more money than any given player (or heck, even all the players). If they bet some amount, they have an equal chance of winning and losing. That's it.

Greed doesn't matter. They could still very well win all their bets or lose all their bets. Once you get past this, it's easy to understand that with variance, martingale can end up with a player busting but when you consider the entire space of players (we'll call this S), it's different.

The expected value of the amount that S is returned is going to be 1. And this value is equivalent to the amount that the house gets: 1.

If statistically the house makes no money on each bet, how can you expect to profit regularly?
Hoping that individual players get greedy doesn't help because of the very question: what if they win? There isn't a house edge to make the chance of them losing more likely.

mOgliE

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Quote from: Black_bl on March 18, 2018, 03:20:29 PM

Hey players,
I was looking for opportunity between casinos and found two crypto project which claim that have 0% fees on games, named zeroedge and edgeless. Do you have any experience with them? I asked in their telegram groups, how their concept works, they answered me that their concept is based on their own cryptocurrency, that will grow with number of players and also that not every game will be with 0% fees. I still don't know if it's enough, maybe blockchain will spare some money, on the other hand, they should have big reserve to be able to run. What do you think, will these project successful?

There is no need to experiment such projects.

Let's be clear a casino is made to make money. No one creates a casino just for the fun.
So if they "claim" they have 0% fee, means 0% house edge... How do they earn money?
Of course tons of casinos sporadically drop their house edge to 0 for like 1 hour just to bring more players, but that's like the faucets it's just a marketing operation.

If a project claims to have 0% house edge you can be sure that they'll either run with your money or simply cheat on the house edge xD

Black_bl

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Quote from: Real14Hero on March 21, 2018, 02:12:45 PM

Through forum auctions of ad slots or some other way? Will people be actually interested in buying slots? And will it really be profitable as compared to keeping a minor house edge of something like 0.5%?

I'm not an expert on advertisement, but that's true Google is the biggest source and according their claim in June they will stop dealing with cryptos, on the other hand I can imagine, if you offer your place for banners to casinos and big betting sites, your revenue would be great. According to some research there are something around 300 millions (only over 5 millions related to crypto gambling) gamblers (sport betting, casinos, poker etc.) and 90% of them lose averagelly $350 per year...it's a huge sum of money, we of course don't know if these numbers are exact, and still this is only legal part...maybe only 15, 20 or 25% whole market. If some project would offer 50% own games with %0 and the rest with 0-1% fees, then the project can attract huge part of whole cake and be profitable (my opinion)

piloder

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Don't know much about others but edgeless have their own token on top of ethereum smart contract https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/edgeless/
They have collected good amount of ETH during their ICO which serves as bankroll for the casino and they are sharing their profit with all ICO investors.

Zero edge always don't mean that casino will be in loss and you will win, low to nil house edge will only increase your winning % when you will win. If you will loss you will loss your full bet so it depends on your luck. Also as they have said not all of their games have zero edge.

LuanX3

hero member

Activity: 756

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Quote from: adaseb on March 22, 2018, 12:14:37 AM

Basically if a site has permantely zero house edge, I would steer clear. How are they making a profit?

It's acceptable for a site to have a promo where they have 0% house edge for a short while. However having it permantely it makes no sense.

Hence it might be a scam of some sort.

Theoretically, it is possible for a gambling site to profit from a 0% house edge gambling game. There are two reasons why, first is bet size limits and the house having more money than the player.

Imagine a situation, where a gambling does a martin gale system bets and the casino has a max bet of 1 BTC and lastly the gambler bets at 50% with 0.01BTC per bet. The scenario is that he cannot win against the house since there is still that chance that he will have a losing streak long enough to deplete his bankroll or reach the bet limit.

0.01
0.02
0.04
0.08
0.16
0.32
0.64
1.00

The gambler only needs to lose 8 times to reach the max. Even if you simulate this in a computer game with a lower starting bet or higher limits, it will result to a time that the gambler will have a long losing streak that would empty his bankroll.

The only problem is that the casino will not earn as much as the other casinos with house edge.

adaseb

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Activity: 3808

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Basically if a site has permantely zero house edge, I would steer clear. How are they making a profit?

It's acceptable for a site to have a promo where they have 0% house edge for a short while. However having it permantely it makes no sense.

Hence it might be a scam of some sort.

Vitolife

newbie

Activity: 64

Merit: 0

Quote from: Aleister Crowley on March 21, 2018, 01:15:57 PM

Quote from: Black_bl on March 18, 2018, 03:20:29 PM

Hey players,
I was looking for opportunity between casinos and found two crypto project which claim that have 0% fees on games, named zeroedge and edgeless. Do you have any experience with them? I asked in their telegram groups, how their concept works, they answered me that their concept is based on their own cryptocurrency, that will grow with number of players and also that not every game will be with 0% fees. I still don't know if it's enough, maybe blockchain will spare some money, on the other hand, they should have big reserve to be able to run. What do you think, will these project successful?

LOL, I do not believe in a project that says that owns a 0% edge house, that's the way they lure enthusiasts. and in the end they will only do a big scam, here I feel I have never seen the history of zeroedge and edgeless game slots, though I hope that this is true and the project is a success

Well, they do not plan only the zero edge/commission but to use the blockchain to change the way the industry operates - using smart contracts distributed over the blockchain to remove the house edge as the casinos cannot skew the smart contracts - this could attract lot of new users, also the zero edge would attract new players - also from the poorer countries so the token value growth as more users join would work with growing user base. If you look at the Bitcoin growth with growth of users, even if they grow slower would generate enough funds to run at zero edge.

actmyname

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Activity: 2562

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Spear the bees

Quote from: kmxl45 on March 21, 2018, 03:44:35 AM

[Zero] House edge/rakes makes incredible money for casinos, huge income. If the developers of ZeroEdge aren't greedy, the model can work based on tokens price.

Wrong. Wrong, wrong wrong. You statistically make no profit. And you have no reason to—there's no house edge—nothing is in your favor. There are no business prospects here because you don't have any reasonable means to gain a steady/sustainable stream of revenue.

Sure, 0% edge promotions for limited periods of time can bring in players. However, if you always have ≤0% edge then there's nothing to be had (unless you're scamming).

The proposal of having advertisements is stupid for a variety of reasons. Remember that with 0% edge, players can take more money from you than you gain from ads; you're not running a faucet so they can wager larger amounts.

Real14Hero

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Quote from: MatrixMining on March 21, 2018, 01:22:52 PM

Quote from: Black_bl on March 21, 2018, 08:09:50 AM

Quote from: Real14Hero on March 21, 2018, 05:38:55 AM

Quote from: Beroximos on March 19, 2018, 05:55:29 AM

Their concept looks very well. I think this could have a success and attract a lot of players and investors as well.

I like this concept too. 0% edge is possible if they will have a stabile income of new players and tokens price will increase. The first problem will be that people need to understand this is possible, after it they will be one of the best. Nobody wants to pay extra fees and everybody wants to fair chance beat the casino.

Ofc the players will say that this model suits them, but who in the world operator will be willing to operate such a casino on a large scale?

Now the next level of so called "attracting people" and new members will be having house edge in "negative". That might gain a lot of traction, but again, who will run this? You ? Me?

If someone can manage to build this is a large scale, there will be one additional source of earnings - advertising. If you reach dozens of thousands stable players / visitors your earnings will be from advertising huge, but you're right, there is a need to have a lot of money to be able to build this large scale casino

That's true, advertising can bring serious additional income when they'll be running on a large scale. As for the second part, I think they should have enough reserve from the ICO to live of in the first months and build a large scale casino.

Well advertisement money sounds something very awesome, but from where to get advertisements? Its almost impossible to publish google ads on your site (you need to have a license to publish google ads on your gambling website), so how do you plan on brining advertisements?

Through forum auctions of ad slots or some other way? Will people be actually interested in buying slots? And will it really be profitable as compared to keeping a minor house edge of something like 0.5%?

MatrixMining

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Activity: 169

Merit: 100

Quote from: Black_bl on March 21, 2018, 08:09:50 AM

Quote from: Real14Hero on March 21, 2018, 05:38:55 AM

Quote from: Beroximos on March 19, 2018, 05:55:29 AM

Their concept looks very well. I think this could have a success and attract a lot of players and investors as well.

I like this concept too. 0% edge is possible if they will have a stabile income of new players and tokens price will increase. The first problem will be that people need to understand this is possible, after it they will be one of the best. Nobody wants to pay extra fees and everybody wants to fair chance beat the casino.

Ofc the players will say that this model suits them, but who in the world operator will be willing to operate such a casino on a large scale?

Now the next level of so called "attracting people" and new members will be having house edge in "negative". That might gain a lot of traction, but again, who will run this? You ? Me?

If someone can manage to build this is a large scale, there will be one additional source of earnings - advertising. If you reach dozens of thousands stable players / visitors your earnings will be from advertising huge, but you're right, there is a need to have a lot of money to be able to build this large scale casino

That's true, advertising can bring serious additional income when they'll be running on a large scale. As for the second part, I think they should have enough reserve from the ICO to live of in the first months and build a large scale casino.

Aleister Crowley

hero member

Activity: 966

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Quote from: Black_bl on March 18, 2018, 03:20:29 PM

Hey players,
I was looking for opportunity between casinos and found two crypto project which claim that have 0% fees on games, named zeroedge and edgeless. Do you have any experience with them? I asked in their telegram groups, how their concept works, they answered me that their concept is based on their own cryptocurrency, that will grow with number of players and also that not every game will be with 0% fees. I still don't know if it's enough, maybe blockchain will spare some money, on the other hand, they should have big reserve to be able to run. What do you think, will these project successful?

LOL, I do not believe in a project that says that owns a 0% edge house, that's the way they lure enthusiasts. and in the end they will only do a big scam, here I feel I have never seen the history of zeroedge and edgeless game slots, though I hope that this is true and the project is a success

TonnyMontana

newbie

Activity: 4

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Interesting I just had a phone call with a friend. He said:I puts some money in it.I feel potencial😀

paparadis

newbie

Activity: 97

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This is a really good project. It will join many many people in the very near future.

Black_bl

full member

Activity: 503

Merit: 102

Quote from: Real14Hero on March 21, 2018, 05:38:55 AM

Quote from: Beroximos on March 19, 2018, 05:55:29 AM

Their concept looks very well. I think this could have a success and attract a lot of players and investors as well.

I like this concept too. 0% edge is possible if they will have a stabile income of new players and tokens price will increase. The first problem will be that people need to understand this is possible, after it they will be one of the best. Nobody wants to pay extra fees and everybody wants to fair chance beat the casino.

Ofc the players will say that this model suits them, but who in the world operator will be willing to operate such a casino on a large scale?

Now the next level of so called "attracting people" and new members will be having house edge in "negative". That might gain a lot of traction, but again, who will run this? You ? Me?

If someone can manage to build this is a large scale, there will be one additional source of earnings - advertising. If you reach dozens of thousands stable players / visitors your earnings will be from advertising huge, but you're right, there is a need to have a lot of money to be able to build this large scale casino

Beroximos

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The time will show us if it is a good project or not. I believe it will be good. Just my opinion.

Real14Hero

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Quote from: Beroximos on March 19, 2018, 05:55:29 AM

Their concept looks very well. I think this could have a success and attract a lot of players and investors as well.

I like this concept too. 0% edge is possible if they will have a stabile income of new players and tokens price will increase. The first problem will be that people need to understand this is possible, after it they will be one of the best. Nobody wants to pay extra fees and everybody wants to fair chance beat the casino.

Ofc the players will say that this model suits them, but who in the world operator will be willing to operate such a casino on a large scale?

Now the next level of so called "attracting people" and new members will be having house edge in "negative". That might gain a lot of traction, but again, who will run this? You ? Me?

BlueRedDot

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Guy of course its about a good marketing tactics. They promote most of the games as 0 % edge but as still be having some with 5-10% edge. I see there opportunity to make some bucks.

kmxl45

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

House edge/rakes makes incredible money for casinos, huge income. If the developers of ZeroEdge aren't greedy, the model can work based on tokens price. If this revolutionary idea brings stable supply of new players, it will be ok....for the token price dump they need big pillow as a reserve...

BTCevo

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Quote from: Koadharber on March 20, 2018, 04:21:38 PM

Quote from: BTCevo on March 20, 2018, 12:18:55 AM

Is there any site will offer this? 0% on everything which that is suppose to support their site and they make it 0%? How do you think that site get the income to maintain their site? There is no way any site will do this for sure. Gambling site is business too so what do you expect is they are giving 0% on house edge, rakeback and commision? What do you think about it? To good to be true right? Which is I can say it will turn out to be a scam site

Sooner or later they would really change their minds when they find out that they arent making any money after how many months they do operate.They will realize it and choose up to put HE or rather stop into their operation and ended up on a scam site.Just like on what most people are saying here 0% will not give you any income and rakebacks and commissions isnt really enough.

I believe they already know this, yet they still saying or even trying to scam people by 0% house edge, rake back and commision. There is no way they will let player to make some withdrawal after deposit decent amount. 0% might do if it is only for promotion or event but to use 0% everytime will broke the site as well and turn out to be a scam site

chris200x9

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Quote from: Black_bl on March 18, 2018, 03:20:29 PM

We can even see negative house edge websites !
These are the faucet. I'm thinking in particular of http://www.freebitco.in

Their business model relies on advertising, so the games are just giving BTC away.
It's very hard to get some decent amount of money. You can win more on a dice site.

If some organization find a right balance between income, profits and expenses, we can have very interesting free games.

Did you check their site recently? Because for a quite some time their site does not have any kind of advertisements. It looks like their Google Adsense account banned and other advertisements may not be so much worth so they do not have any advertisements now. If I'm correct, one-time admin mentioned in their thread that now their site main income coming from their hi-low game.

SyGambler

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guess who's back

Hey players,
I was looking for opportunity between casinos and found two crypto project which claim that have 0% fees on games, named zeroedge and edgeless. Do you have any experience with them? I asked in their telegram groups, how their concept works, they answered me that their concept is based on their own cryptocurrency, that will grow with number of players and also that not every game will be with 0% fees. I still don't know if it's enough, maybe blockchain will spare some money, on the other hand, they should have big reserve to be able to run. What do you think, will these project successful?

such concept may exist since they are giving an incentive for gamblers to buy their token , but I will take the 1% for btc sites rather than buying a token that will fluctuate a lot
so yes the edge may be 0 for some games , but you will be gambling with the price and for me most alts are -EV when it comes to price