Topic: 11 countries close to bankruptcy....... (Read 5543 times)

This is true for companies however countries are not companies. Countries have special sovereign protection and generally cannot be sued unless they agree.

Since most local currencies are not stable creditors often want loans to be denominated in terms of dollars or euros (or another major currency). In the event a country cannot pay they would not be able to "print their way" out of debt. If a country cannot pay their debt they can simply not pay it, however this would make it difficult for the country to do business in the global economy and be able to borrow in the future.

what about germany in the 2WW, France before the Revolution without FIAT money? USA prevented bancruptsy in the 80es by going into FIAT. BTC a new Goldstandard? Not possible, so new concepts have to come up.

Is your question: Can a goverment prevent bancruptsy by issuing cryptos instead? I guess, they could do that, besides fiber glass and digital wallets are still more expensive infrastracture as minting and printing. So no.

I wonder how the transition from a country that is about to collapse due not being able to EVER pay fiat debt, get BTC as the official coin? how would this transition happen effectively?

In rules of court, the company is only bankrupt if they declared it or being sued for it in the event that they are not able to repay the debt.

If those countries can continue to borrow, they can keep delaying the inevitable by kicking the can down the road.

The list is incomplete. Many more countries in Europe, Africa, and even the US are close to bankruptcy.

Moreover, Argentina, Belize, Greece, and Cyprus are not only close to bankruptcy, they are bankrupt already, because they could not repay their bonds in full. Of course it is unlikely that any country will ever officially admit that it is bankrupt.

ya.ya.yo!

True, but can BTC going by its present trends revitalize these economies world wide if totally adopted.

I'll know when the world is maybe changing when USA is somewhere on lists like this people make.     Its not even feasible in peoples minds at the moment.
   I mean we could still have Lehmans trading in theory, if they had just got the same finance from their creditors it would not be a problem for them but they got caught out and it was bad luck and of course awful company operation.   USA needs that debt so badly, it can switch to a nasty situation very easily and only massive export production could counteract that kind of effect.  

Not  just USA but any country with over 100% debt vs their GDP.  Japan has a debt problem, their government would go broke but Japanese businesses still bring alot of money to the country, because of that their government siphons off value by issuing more currency.
Also Japan has 1 trillion of USA debt so maybe people should look at this list above and see how much dollars or bonds they hold, its possible they would flush out problems elsewhere as did the Lehman effect

Ecuador and Venezuela have massive oil reserves.   They arent bankrupt with such big assets per capita, more like insolvent perhaps and if it was a company it would reorganised to strip out the wasteful parts like excess bloated government which is not profitable to a country or its people

Theres nothing in EURO that prevents bankruptcy from excess spending.   The real dynamic is these are small countries so the stain they would leave behind on the remaining members is worth avoiding for relatively little cost.   If France were to trip over in a similar fashion and it does have problems, then Europe cannot save them.    Consider that Greece is unable to support others, it has not recovered and the debt it has will be there for decades.    Other nations are similarly weak. 
 If you told me the solution given was an immunity type cure, Greece could be scaled up and so France or similar large failure would supported by previous success then I could see it but nothing was resolved

If countries borrow in other currencies they can default and be bankrupt.  Argentina has done this and other nations as well.  However, usually the debt is just restructured.

Just let them go under. Make the banks and creditors take a haircut.

It is simple you cant live over your possibilities. Once country reach that they need to work half year to just pay off their old debts, they have to think what they do a lot. Their children's will have to pay interests on their easy life now. Unless they will decide to leave your in debt country and go live somewhere where today dont live over their possibilities.

They cant bankrupt. Unless they decide so by theyself. They are part of EU. Things was not set perfect 5 years ago, but soon will be. But those 2 countries always had chance to 100% avoid bankruptcy.

Countries close to bankruptcy: its simple, adopt BTC or DIE.

Corrupt politicians will just spend the money there is. You cannot dissuade them.

Adopting a decentralized currency could calm some of the political instability. If the government cannot print money at will (and spend as much money via printing additional money) then there will be less reasons for corrupt politicians to try to come into political power in the first place. 

it's banks fault, they know that it was coming, and they did nothing, hope those bank can fuck off and accept bitcoin as a universal payment.
they should come up with a alternative inflationary/deflationary system

How would that be different in BTC, where you have greed of early adopters controlling tens of thousands of BTC and effectively being able to manipulate currency acting as central banks?

A better way would be some sort of PoS crypto split equally between all countries according to their population numbers, or even better, split equally between all individuals.

But both plans are utopia anyway, not worth writing a few words about.

No they are no going to be completely bankrupted just a fluctuation on their economy on regards to their countries political ecosystem

Right. If the country can not manage their own currency, converting it to bitcoin will not magically solve their problems.

The county needs live within its mean and pay off their external and internal debt. Produce something the rest of the world want.

Exactly,a country's falling economy has certain conditions,say political instability or due to ongoing conflicts.Adoption of decentralized currency wouldn't do any good

Argentina is in default but they still have tax revenue and foreign country reserves. The only real difference between pre and post default argentina is the fact that they no longer have access to the capital markets, but they already really did not have access because of their known unwillingness to honor their debt.

Spain is also raking up debt at rampant speeds. Surprised is not even mentioned on there.

Maybe they weren't even good enough to get international debt issued, forget defaulting on it. 

Their only hope = adopting BTC or death.

It's true that it does seem that fiat is collapsing and at some point it may but the way things are now I do not see bitcoin as of yet getting us out of any kind of mess if fiat did collapse.

I would add all the Euro zone to this list.

When they unified their coin, they gave up their monetary decisions to a supra-national entity, so pretty much if one falls, the other will follow.


And there are not few countries in the zone with problems, bigger or smaller(Greece, Portugal, France, Italy, Spain, etc...)

Zimbabwe  not in the list?

They recovered from that inflation, or they are in the already in bankruptcy list?

Argentina just defaulted (so 100% chance) and Ukraine was already fucked before the civil war started. I'm not too sure about the odds of the others.

French revolution is probably the most brutal event that ever happen to the ruling class for the west.

Other culture (ie China) revolution is more used to having the whole emperor family getting slaughtered by warlords.

yes..occasionally it is reversed..French revolution..Oliver Cromwell..chairman Mao but human nature is what it is and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future

Big guy can get away with much more than small guy. It is so and it's been so for last few thousands of years.

Yes..regretfully the system is "cooked' and openly so

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-04/another-settlement-%E2%80%93-jp-morgan-receives-slap-wrist-despite-years-fraudulent-cftc-dat


the most stunning controversy occurred back in 2010 when a retiring judge accused the other remaining judge of being a total bought and paid for Wall Street crony.

The retiring judge was George Painter, who accused fellow judge Bruce Levine of not once ever ruling in favor of an investor in his 20 years on the bench.

and so no one thinks I am just picking on poor old JP  here ared 2 other rap sheets that read similarly

WHY do these twits still have a banking license..if you break traffic laws they take your license away !!!

http://www.corp-research.org/goldman-sachs

http://www.corp-research.org/citigroup

Thanks for that article. Besides all the connections JPM has, these comments are the ones I found most interesting.


"JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon is on Capitol Hill again today, this time to talk to the House Financial Services committee about the bank's recent multibillion-dollar trading loss. ...His Senate hearing was hardly a grilling; senators mostly praised him for his "emphasis on continuous quality improvement," in the words of Senator Jim DeMint, R-S.C. " -- Basically, we called you here to investigate why these losses took place, but instead....lets just complement you on your work ethic.

"Jamie Dimon sits on the board of the New York Federal Reserve — something that's prompted a proposed bill from Democratic senators that would ban officials of banks that can receive loans from the Fed from serving on any of its boards. JPMorgan and 17 other banks whose execs served on regional Fed boards got emergency loans from the Fed between 2007 and 2009. A government report found no evidence of conflict of interest from the arrangement, but did raise the concern of "reputational risks" from the appearance of one. " --JPM CEO sits on NY Federal reserve board and received emergency loans from the Fed back during the subprime crisis. I wonder if the fed gave these loans out to many corporations or if there was any JPM favoritism (not that it really matters after the bailouts).

I don't know much about Jamaica, Ukraine or Belize, but 40% annual chance of going bankrupt seems like it would make the top 10. Unless this article is basing it off of Debt % of GDP.

JP Morgan knows lots and lots and lots and lots we dont know about

and what we do know about they knew long before we did ( most probably LOL)

http://www.propublica.org/article/jpmorgans-connections-to-the-house-finance-committee

and their rap sheet shows ..no prison sentences  multi billion $ issues    when you can just buy your way out of trouble  at a percentage  of what you made is the Philosophy.. cost of doing bizniz  I wonder?

http://www.corp-research.org/jpmorganchase

Because 11 is a really low number. Isn't this a list of the 11 most likely?

There is still plenty to lose

reduction in pensions..spending power of pensions thru inflation (ffod inflation currently 20% + for 2014)..investments in the stock market lose 30%.. another house price crash  etc



http://go.bloomberg.com/market-now/2014/03/06/household-wealth-hits-record-savings-still-lo/

https://www.google.com.ph/search?q=value+of+savings+of+middle+class+usa&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gfe_rd=cr&ei=KcTgU9kf5onxB-SDgZAM#q=stockmarket+overvalued+by+40%25+2014&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

It will hurt the middle classes most as always because

a) the poor have almost no savings to lose (76% of usa  survive paycheck to paycheck)
http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/24/pf/emergency-savings/

b) the mega rich are mostly hedged against downturns and some actively bet on them so they make money when they happen .

Its the people not on welfare with some savings that will bear the brunt

Oh ..I forgot..when crisis hits (selected)  Banks get free money from the Fed

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/02/03/1274755/-Free-Money-for-the-Rich-The-Scandal-of-Quantitative-Easing-and-the-Undemocratic-Federal-Reserve#

and this is what they do with it

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-10/guest-post-note-fed-giving-banks-free-money-wont-make-us-hire-more-workers

Could JP Morgan have a very large derivative sheet in order to combat a predicted high inflation rate? Maybe they know something we don't?

What I meant is how does it hurt the working or middle class people.  A lot of people still haven't recovered to pre-2008 as sub prime literally wiped out construction and supporting industries.  So there's nothing to wipe out this second time around.   If I am wrong and it's bad bad well that comes down to the expression break a few eggs to make an omellete.  I don't think anyone thinks capitalism on a society basis has worked since the 1960s.



Sounds like you are concerned about a potential economic crisis that would actually hurt the banking class for a change.  Though using hurt is a bit of an understatement.  I wish I knew that feeling to downgrade from a Lamborghini to a Mustang.

How did they forget places like Ireland, Portugal and Spain? Ireland is predicted to have about a 40% year over year chance of becoming bankrupt.

BTC or mad max

I agree with this viewpoint.
Also, Bitcoin itself can't help any national economy to get rid of debts.
Economy (and specially World finance industry) is still based on USD, and most countries asking for loan in USA, and this will not change soon.
If bitcoin will be regulated and have its own bank this story may be different but because this will never happen we can't think that Bitcoin can directly help any of this 11 countries close to  bankruptcy...

Sub prime cost between 14 - 22 trillion dollars according to which estimate is closer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis

http://www.businessinsider.com/fed-study-financial-crisis-costs-incalculable-2013-7


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/financial-crisis-cost-gao_n_2687553.html

The next one  could be worse due to monetary expansion used to "fix" the sub prime..

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2014/02/11/why-the-next-financial-crisis-could-be-worse-than-2008/

What could be worse that that?

Derivatives meltdown...or 20 - 25% of $710 trillion ..even if its only 5% that's twice the size of the last one

Buffet says its coming
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2014/04/30/seking-shelter-warren-buffett-limits-receivables-from-major-banks/

This shows the size..growing every day

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-12/kohler-controlling-derivatives/5515666

We don't know when as all Govts are doing everything they can to delay/avoid/ lessen the impact..including cooking the books

We dont know how big

We do know it will come eventually as it always does

Who would loan money to a geographical location?  lol 

Because they can always inflate and tax until they can pay. The debt is in USD.

How can it be worse than sub prime?  Sub prime wiped out the construction industry (which hasn't come anywhere close to recovering in terms of jobs).

There's nothing left to wipe out anymore unless it's oil jobs, government jobs or office jobs..

I don't think it'll be long before it does hit. Economists are already warning it will be worse than the sub prime crisis.

Bitcoin will never be used as the USA National currency  as someone will want/need to control ...either Banks or Govt. but would probably co exist with a new National crypto currency.

The USA ( and a few others) Govt did not used to be the Borg Queen  a long time ago..but now it is. Govt is motivated by individual ( personal ..get rich or re-elected) goals in the 1st instance and good work in the second intance ( based on the   If I'm not elected ( which needs financing and money in MY bank) I cant do any good..doctrine)


While the Fed is outwardly private owned..the influence Govt has is in fact strong, if not effectively absolute..they will threaten to change the system and kick the bankers out if ever a major request to them is denied...Congress actually has power to do that if ever they want to...It is just convenient for Govt. to have a scape goat to blame if things go seriously wrong

a balanced view is here ( without the stated recognition that Govt has them over a barrel IF ever they want to remove their power)

http://www.monetary.org/is-the-federal-reserve-system-a-governmental-or-a-privately-controlled-organization/2008/02

Another disturbing thing about the British news report is its reflection of the naive belief that more regulation means a safer, less risky financial system and economy. Big Government here and in Europe has perpetrated the astonishing myth that the recent financial crisis was caused by reckless and greedy private-sector bankers. No wonder the public howls for bankers’ heads. The real villains here were governments, particularly central banks.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2013/07/24/big-government-and-central-banks-the-real-criminals/

I disagree.  The Government isn't the Borg Queen, it's a collection of individuals & agencies who are motivated by their individual goals and wishes.  The Federal Reserve for instance is distinct from the other arms of the government.

Bitcoin can be used as a national currency, no reason why it couldn't.  Governments can collect their revenue from taxation and then spend the funds accordingly.

When the next debt crisis hits it is gonna be a masterpiece!  Blah Blah Blah.. wait and see

It was interesting watching what Argentina did to the markets in one day.  I think we are nearing a interesting time where new superpowers will step forward and maybe even a transition from the petro dollar. But then again we could keep slugging away the same way we always have.

I agree that its better, but unless there is some massive revolution with a government overhaul, they will still be in charge

Because US debt is denominated in USD. Can always print more to pay back the creditors.

Wow! I think you're a bit optimistic. I'd say BTC can help, but some people won't understand how BTC can help them, or they might not want to be helped.

while i agree the financial system is close to collapse, i highly doubt it will happen overnight. no repeat of the great depression. more like slowly rising prices and unemployment as people get laid off and jobs get harder to find.

The current fascist/authoritarian/statist system is doomed.

FTFY.

The current capitalistic system is doomed and bound to fail at some point.

yes..It is a total myth that fiats last a long time..or are a safe/good place to store wealth...All fiats die ..all fiats die ..ALL fiats die


https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.7692168

and here is a list of "bankrupt" nations over the last 200 yrs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_defaults#List_of_sovereign_defaults

Bitcoin will not save countries.

It will save people.

Lol thanks

 Usa is not there as a) most of the debt is in dollars and they can just print enough any time they want to pay it off...This will of course have serious effects on inflation and make everyone holding dollars poorer as they would need to pay 2 or 10 or 100 times more for anything that they buy..and b) USA or any other country is never really bankrupt as they still have land , buildings roads/ resources and lots of other stuff that they can sell or lease to pay debt..

When most people call a country bankrupt or close to bankruptcy what the really mean is they are in or close to a sovereign default.. i.e they cannot  or will not( under existing terms of their debt, which will ALWAYS eventually be renegotiated) pay obligations when they fall due..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default

Some countries can deal with the renegotiation better than others.

Normally the effect is that everybody gets poorer and often they introduce currency controls and or bank raids high taxes etc  by the State like in Cyprus so the rich have a big share of the burden of solving the mess the politicians have handed the Country.

Where bitcoin comes in is to avoid / evade effects like that you can change your local currency deposited in banks or under your mattress to bitcoin..send it to places like the caymen Islands and reconvert to fiat to safely deposit it in a bank out of reach of your (naughty) Govt .

Before the advent or bitcoin this process was done by buying $,s on the black market at 10 to 50% extra. Putting them in suitcases and travelling abroad hoping not to get caught.. Bitcoin makes the process sooooo much easier and cheaper.

I think there will be something worse coming with econmic collapse almost certain eventually.


What is the FRS?

This debt is for FRS but not for some country. That is why America is not at this list.

Because Yahoo is the biggest Racist fish out their 

Not all countries. Most countries have a national debt, but a most of them don't have a debt bigger than they can pay off.

Arent most countries close to bankruptcy? Isn't America in debt where it is unable to pay?

A currency that's actually useable & trusted by the people is better than the debasement of banks & greed of government officials.

Yeah thanks, just woke up so this helps.

It's a nice thought, but economically speaking, even if massively adopted, BTC couldn't save a country from bankruptcy. A currency that they cannot control wouldn't become the primary currency of a failing economy

Here is the list if someone want is reluctant to check the article...

1. Ecuador
2. Egypt
3. Pakistan
4. Venezuela
5. Argentina
6. Belize
7. Cuba
8. Cyprus
9. Greece
10. Jamaica
11. Ukraine

Greece doesn't belong on the list, it's a deception.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl9N9GdraQ

true since december 2013 for me ... since law are adopted to freeze and steal money from personal account in a week-end (cyprus schematic) to bail-out the banks to avoid bank run (bulgaria schematic).

all in place ... bitcoin will win at the end (like all performante and isolate tool)

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/11-countries-near-bankruptcy-223350842.html?soc_src=mediacontentstory

And they call Bitcoin unstable...