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Topic: 2 economists just eviscerated bitcoin, saying it should be trading at $20 (Read 731 times)

hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 526
The problem with the assumption of the economist is that he creates all this mental exercise from a false premise, he says that if bitcoin was used just like any other currency it will be worth 20 dollars, and there are two flaws with that kind of thinking, the first one is since when currencies are only used as currencies and not as a source of speculation? Look at the Forex market, and second bitcoin is in no way or form an ordinary currency so all what he is talking about can be disproved with just those two points.

Well, these two points of yours don't actually disprove the authors' argument. Because it is not a false premise, it is just an assumption, basically "what if". You may accept it or you may discard it. In the first case, you could then argue what Bitcoin price would be. Though it would be hard to say since we don't know and can't correctly assess what Bitcoin adoption might be and what technologies like LN and its likes would be used by now.
From wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise
'A false premise is an incorrect proposition that forms the basis of an argument or syllogism. Since the premise (proposition, or assumption) is not correct, the conclusion drawn may be in error.'

It is a false premise that currencies are only used as such when we know that no major currency follows that pattern, every major currency is used to speculate with the strength of the economy of the country or with other factors, the scenario pictured could be correct but it does not change the fact the premise is false and as such it is never going to happen and the conclusion is mistaken.

Did you read my post, huh? You obviously don't get it. The authors don't follow false premises. They make assumptions, they don't claim these assumptions are true or false because this is not what you would expect an assumption to be anyway. For your information, assumption is "something that you accept as true without question or proof". In other words, an assumption cannot be false by definition since it is just an assumption.
full member
Activity: 448
Merit: 100
It's not them that will decide on that matter but the market itself. We did not go $20k and then down to $6k because someone just said it should be, it happened because it's the reaction of the investors affected by the news or on their own beliefs.
sr. member
Activity: 686
Merit: 320
The problem with the assumption of the economist is that he creates all this mental exercise from a false premise, he says that if bitcoin was used just like any other currency it will be worth 20 dollars, and there are two flaws with that kind of thinking, the first one is since when currencies are only used as currencies and not as a source of speculation? Look at the Forex market, and second bitcoin is in no way or form an ordinary currency so all what he is talking about can be disproved with just those two points.

Well, these two points of yours don't actually disprove the authors' argument. Because it is not a false premise, it is just an assumption, basically "what if". You may accept it or you may discard it. In the first case, you could then argue what Bitcoin price would be. Though it would be hard to say since we don't know and can't correctly assess what Bitcoin adoption might be and what technologies like LN and its likes would be used by now.
From wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise
'A false premise is an incorrect proposition that forms the basis of an argument or syllogism. Since the premise (proposition, or assumption) is not correct, the conclusion drawn may be in error.'


It is a false premise that currencies are only used as such when we know that no major currency follows that pattern, every major currency is used to speculate with the strength of the economy of the country or with other factors, the scenario pictured could be correct but it does not change the fact the premise is false and as such it is never going to happen and the conclusion is mistaken.

You've read things the way you want to in order to say it's based on a false premise. No where in the article do they say it's "only" used as a currency.

Regardless, it's just another group of people throwing their hat in the ring to try and make sense out of the experiment known as bitcoin. No one is capable of doing that as it's a completely different beast.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
Let people speculate bitcoin has never stopped or discouraged anyones opinion about its price from their predictions it is clear they just hate bitcoin for whatsoever reason or still doesnt know how blockchain or bitcoin has made a significant change in the world economy and peoples life
legendary
Activity: 2814
Merit: 2472
https://JetCash.com
Typical BBC rubbish. Don't they say that we ( the UK ) would be better off staying in the EU, and continuing the decline and asset theft that started when we joined.

They make no account of the fact that Bitcoin is undergoing a change in users' perception. It's apparent use as a payment system is in decline, and it's acceptance as a store of worth is increasing. This means it is substantially undervalued in my opinion. Economists don't seem to understand this, they probably still link Bitcoin to the use of cowrie shells. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1338
The problem with the assumption of the economist is that he creates all this mental exercise from a false premise, he says that if bitcoin was used just like any other currency it will be worth 20 dollars, and there are two flaws with that kind of thinking, the first one is since when currencies are only used as currencies and not as a source of speculation? Look at the Forex market, and second bitcoin is in no way or form an ordinary currency so all what he is talking about can be disproved with just those two points.

Well, these two points of yours don't actually disprove the authors' argument. Because it is not a false premise, it is just an assumption, basically "what if". You may accept it or you may discard it. In the first case, you could then argue what Bitcoin price would be. Though it would be hard to say since we don't know and can't correctly assess what Bitcoin adoption might be and what technologies like LN and its likes would be used by now.
From wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise
'A false premise is an incorrect proposition that forms the basis of an argument or syllogism. Since the premise (proposition, or assumption) is not correct, the conclusion drawn may be in error.'


It is a false premise that currencies are only used as such when we know that no major currency follows that pattern, every major currency is used to speculate with the strength of the economy of the country or with other factors, the scenario pictured could be correct but it does not change the fact the premise is false and as such it is never going to happen and the conclusion is mistaken.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 526
The problem with the assumption of the economist is that he creates all this mental exercise from a false premise, he says that if bitcoin was used just like any other currency it will be worth 20 dollars, and there are two flaws with that kind of thinking, the first one is since when currencies are only used as currencies and not as a source of speculation? Look at the Forex market, and second bitcoin is in no way or form an ordinary currency so all what he is talking about can be disproved with just those two points.

Well, these two points of yours don't actually disprove the authors' argument. Because it is not a false premise, it is just an assumption, basically "what if". You may accept it or you may discard it. In the first case, you could then argue what Bitcoin price would be. Though it would be hard to say since we don't know and can't correctly assess what Bitcoin adoption might be and what technologies like LN and its likes would be used by now.
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1338
The problem with the assumption of the economist is that he creates all this mental exercise from a false premise, he says that if bitcoin was used just like any other currency it will be worth 20 dollars, and there are two flaws with that kind of thinking, the first one is since when currencies are only used as currencies and not as a source of speculation? Look at the Forex market, and second bitcoin is in no way or form an ordinary currency so all what he is talking about can be disproved with just those two points.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 526
Is it time to realize that bitcoin's high price principally came from speculative sources and not real world utilization? I know I will get a lot of negative replies by saying it, but a simple look at the market shows that it is true. With the speculatory mania gone, what does the bitcoin market really have?

Richard Jackman, an economist at the London School of Economics, and Savvas Savouri, an economist at Toscafund Asset Management, however, estimate the coin is still trading far higher than it should.

That number, according to Jackman and Savouri, is a mere $20. Here's their logic:

The supply of bitcoin increases only slowly towards its famous fixed limit and is now around 15m. The use of bitcoin as a means of payment is currently around $100m per month, or $1,200m a year. Were bitcoin just like ordinary money each bitcoin would be used around four times a year in making transactions. So we have 60m bitcoin payments supporting $1,200m worth of bitcoin transactions, which requires that each bitcoin is worth $20.

There's always a "but" with such analysis. And the "but" in this case is that bitcoin could be worth its current value, but it would have to see a 1000-fold increase in its use as a form of payment.


There is nothing new in this. The speculative nature of Bitcoin has been known for ages. Anyway, speculation is also an important part of it whether someone likes it or not. And as the "but" part suggests, if we remove speculation, Bitcoin's use as a form of payment could actually expand. Speculations add dramatically to volatility, but volatility is the major roadblock to wider Bitcoin adoption as a means of payment.
full member
Activity: 141
Merit: 100
They are a bit out of the era I think, because according to their logic, obscure fiat currencies from countries with high population should have a big value, since there are many exchanges... Also how could fiat money devaluation work with such an idea ? They are stupid from A to Z, like most of the time with specialists...
hero member
Activity: 2352
Merit: 905
Metawin.com - Truly the best casino ever
Do really anyone believes what these economists announce or say? 20$ - price of bitcoin? Lol, people they just lie you, their aim is this.
Just imagine if bitcoin is 20$, how will miners profit? No way, so this will destroy bitcoin. Also if we forget miners and this fact of destroy, one very reach man can easily buy all bitcoin.
It's a shame to say something very shit for money, especially when you are famous.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1265
Is it time to realize that bitcoin's high price principally came from speculative sources and not real world utilization? I know I will get a lot of negative replies by saying it, but a simple look at the market shows that it is true. With the speculatory mania gone, what does the bitcoin market really have?



Richard Jackman, an economist at the London School of Economics, and Savvas Savouri, an economist at Toscafund Asset Management, however, estimate the coin is still trading far higher than it should.

That number, according to Jackman and Savouri, is a mere $20. Here's their logic:

The supply of bitcoin increases only slowly towards its famous fixed limit and is now around 15m. The use of bitcoin as a means of payment is currently around $100m per month, or $1,200m a year. Were bitcoin just like ordinary money each bitcoin would be used around four times a year in making transactions. So we have 60m bitcoin payments supporting $1,200m worth of bitcoin transactions, which requires that each bitcoin is worth $20.

There's always a "but" with such analysis. And the "but" in this case is that bitcoin could be worth its current value, but it would have to see a 1000-fold increase in its use as a form of payment.


Read the full article http://www.businessinsider.com/2-economists-just-eviscerated-bitcoin-saying-it-should-be-trading-at-20-2018-2

What a load of crap ....

OK so a store of value is based on transactions ?!?!?!?
Following that logic I can say that a Picasso painting isn't worth anything because no paintings are being sold  Huh Huh Huh

Maybe I'm not an "economist" but a store of value should be based on work. But since money is printed at will those "economists" probably forgot the basic principals.
If you can create a bitcoin for $20 I'm buying your product Smiley
hero member
Activity: 735
Merit: 1765
I reckon you are making up the term same fool, I had to do a google search but I found nothing about it hehehe.

I'm defining it.  I have the right to define a notion in an argument, right ?  The notion of same fool is like the notion of greater fool, except that the coefficient of foolishness in same-fool systems has an expectation value of near 1, while the expectation value of the coefficient of foolishness is a large number in greater-fool systems.  (and I suppose that you won't be able to find "coefficient of foolishness" either).

The point is that you can have a finite set of fools, and they can maintain indefinitely a system of same-fool belief ; however a finite set of fools can never sustain a greater-fool system: they run out of greater fools at a given moment.

Here, the definition of coefficient of foolishness A in such kind of games is the following:

 "an entity is willing to buy the asset at price X, on the condition of expecting to find buyers at A.X."

I have the right to define notions.  I thought it was obvious, and it didn't need explanation.

If we have a finite set of entities, the above game can be played only successfully for a long time if the expectation value of A over that set is near 1.  That's what I call a "same fool" system.  For instance, I know that a $100 bill is intrinsically worth nothing.  I can at best light my stove with it, physically, I cannot eat it, it is not beautiful.  So this quite useless piece of paper isn't worth anything intrinsically.   Wanting to work a few hours to obtain such a piece of paper is foolishness.  Except that I'm willing to do so, because I believe that I will find another fool, accepting it against similar value.  And the very next day, that fool (who also accepted a piece of paper he can do nothing with) will find a third fool that ALSO is EQUALLY foolish.  And in the end, that third fool will propose that bill to me for a few hours of work, and lo and behold, I am again as foolish as he is to accept to do work for a silly piece of paper. That game can  continue indefinitely, because each time each of us is satisfied in our expectations.

However, if there's an asset X within a finite set of people, of which the people only want to acquire it for price X, if on average, they expect to sell it for 100 X to another player (bitcoin and co must be of that kind), then you end up ALWAYS having a large portion of the players totally frustrated in their expectations.

In as much an asset can continue to go around with people expecting more or less the SAME value when they sell it, than when they buy it, an asset cannot continue to go around with people expecting more or less a much higher value when they sell it, than when they buy it.  This always ends up frustrating a large majority of the players, unless the set of players is infinite.

You can classify speculative assets (that is, assets which are intrinsically worthless, such as a piece of paper that is a $100 dollar bill) in two sets: the set of assets where most of its users are in the "same fool" game ; and the set of assets where most of its users are in the "greater fool" game.  Crypto users are in the last kind.

By far most crypto buyers are ONLY buying crypto, because they want to sell their crypto for MUCH more than they acquired it. There is only a very, very small fraction of crypto buyers that are NOT buying crypto with the idea of selling it higher.  So the average A in this game is much higher than 1.  I don't know how much it is, but ask yourself: if someone buys bitcoin at $10 000, do you really think that his motivation is to sell that coin at about $10 000, 5 years from now and that was the real motivation ?


And 5 years from now will you be doing the same amount of work for that $100.00 (piece of paper you can do nothing with) ?

You can not compare your example above, to someone buying BTC and wanting to sell it higher in 5 years time.

In fact, I would expect to be able to pay someone less BTC to mow my lawns in five years from now.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
I reckon you are making up the term same fool, I had to do a google search but I found nothing about it hehehe.

I'm defining it.  I have the right to define a notion in an argument, right ?  The notion of same fool is like the notion of greater fool, except that the coefficient of foolishness in same-fool systems has an expectation value of near 1, while the expectation value of the coefficient of foolishness is a large number in greater-fool systems.  (and I suppose that you won't be able to find "coefficient of foolishness" either).

The point is that you can have a finite set of fools, and they can maintain indefinitely a system of same-fool belief ; however a finite set of fools can never sustain a greater-fool system: they run out of greater fools at a given moment.

Here, the definition of coefficient of foolishness A in such kind of games is the following:

 "an entity is willing to buy the asset at price X, on the condition of expecting to find buyers at A.X."

I have the right to define notions.  I thought it was obvious, and it didn't need explanation.

If we have a finite set of entities, the above game can be played only successfully for a long time if the expectation value of A over that set is near 1.  That's what I call a "same fool" system.  For instance, I know that a $100 bill is intrinsically worth nothing.  I can at best light my stove with it, physically, I cannot eat it, it is not beautiful.  So this quite useless piece of paper isn't worth anything intrinsically.   Wanting to work a few hours to obtain such a piece of paper is foolishness.  Except that I'm willing to do so, because I believe that I will find another fool, accepting it against similar value.  And the very next day, that fool (who also accepted a piece of paper he can do nothing with) will find a third fool that ALSO is EQUALLY foolish.  And in the end, that third fool will propose that bill to me for a few hours of work, and lo and behold, I am again as foolish as he is to accept to do work for a silly piece of paper. That game can  continue indefinitely, because each time each of us is satisfied in our expectations.

However, if there's an asset X within a finite set of people, of which the people only want to acquire it for price X, if on average, they expect to sell it for 100 X to another player (bitcoin and co must be of that kind), then you end up ALWAYS having a large portion of the players totally frustrated in their expectations.

In as much an asset can continue to go around with people expecting more or less the SAME value when they sell it, than when they buy it, an asset cannot continue to go around with people expecting more or less a much higher value when they sell it, than when they buy it.  This always ends up frustrating a large majority of the players, unless the set of players is infinite.

You can classify speculative assets (that is, assets which are intrinsically worthless, such as a piece of paper that is a $100 dollar bill) in two sets: the set of assets where most of its users are in the "same fool" game ; and the set of assets where most of its users are in the "greater fool" game.  Crypto users are in the last kind.

By far most crypto buyers are ONLY buying crypto, because they want to sell their crypto for MUCH more than they acquired it. There is only a very, very small fraction of crypto buyers that are NOT buying crypto with the idea of selling it higher.  So the average A in this game is much higher than 1.  I don't know how much it is, but ask yourself: if someone buys bitcoin at $10 000, do you really think that his motivation is to sell that coin at about $10 000, 5 years from now and that was the real motivation ?
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 3014
Bitcoin is not something you learn in school and I don’t believe these economists are predicting such low prices for bitcoin all in the name of causing panic and AFAIK bitcoin will never be worth anywhere near the $20 margin.

The fact that Bitcoin got it's foot in the wall-street door with futures bodes extremely well for it's future.  No pun.  Economists should be running countries ..not reality TV stars.  I love economist, freakonomics may be the best book I've ever read.  But they are NOT financial analysts.  Many simply don't know how financial products work like say an advisor/CFA/CFP etc would.  Speaking of advisors, I've seen the likes of Buffett speaking poorly of BTC.  Dude is likely the best investor we've seen..but that only means so much.  He knows everything there is about traditional products but I HIGHLY doubt he even has the time to study Bitcoin well enough.  He's old school.  An advisor myself, I can't count how many old traditionalists (and great advisors often) will simply balk at new products without even giving it the time of day or even when they're game changing products (see Equity Linked Notes).  It's just how it is.  Let's not forget the baby boomers whom still think Marijuana is a drug equal to LSD and Alcohol are often the biggest pundits.  They resist change no matter how much sense it makes.

My point-don't read too much in to that.  Also, a lot of people like to say things for press or ulterior motives (Jamie Dimon).  To be fair Jamie made a walk of shame for the ages backing up on his highly pointed and emotional hate for BTC (even as he continues to see millions fly out of his bank every day to purchase crytpo).

Live in the past die in the past. Let's not forget people once thought it crazy gold money was turned in for "worthless pieces of paper". 
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1027
Dump it!!!
Bitcoin is not something you learn in school and I don’t believe these economists are predicting such low prices for bitcoin all in the name of causing panic and AFAIK bitcoin will never be worth anywhere near the $20 margin.
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 3014
Many of the worlds smartest humans have touted Bitcoin and vice versa.  However more often than not the pundits are always missing key factors.  First off BTC is the newest hedge asset.  Volatile hedge, but what financial anything isn't in it's infancy?

Two important reads my buddy wrote that I will share that everyone and anyone can read and make sense of yet very informing and written extremely well.  

BTC as a payment system ..the day is near again with the Lightning Network-  https://medium.com/@melik_87377/lightning-network-enables-unicast-transactions-in-bitcoin-lightning-is-bitcoins-tcp-ip-stack-8ec1d42c14f5



Let's not forget many of us here live in 1st world countries and very lucky because of it.  World Bank Group’s Douglas Pearce says he’s most intrigued by the number 2 billion. That staggering sum represents the "unbanked”; people without access to transaction accounts. That lack of access is especially a problem for the poor, for women, and for people in rural areas.  Bitcoin to many of these people and many more to come..is their bank!
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 501
No miner wold give away his coins for 20$.
I think they would rather let it stay in a wallet for all eternity. The investments that are necessary to create a bitcoin these day are so high, it does not make a difference to give it away for free or sell it for 20 dollars.
In both cases they would go bankrupt in days. And without miners, we have no new blocks, and without new blocks.. well, you know the game...
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1252
Bitcoin is death threads coming up, good sign.

Indeed. Anyone remembers the PhD economist Nobel Prize super expert calling an under $10 bitcoin back in 2013?



He failed so much that he became a meme, now know as "professor bitcorn."

This is what happens when you call bottoms, you can be wrong and then miss having a position for the next bull run. If the bottom was $7500, the people expecting way cheaper prices will be left out for the next bull run which could peak anywhere from $50k to $100k as people realize that the bottom was a long time ago and they FOMO back in. This is how bitcoin grows, I've been seeing it since day 1.
hero member
Activity: 735
Merit: 1765
It is currently costing approx. $2400-$3000 to generate 1BTC.
Do you really think any miners will sell their coin for $20 each?

There is no fixed cost for generating a coin.
If the price will drop below 1000$ people will just start turning off their miners, difficulty will go down, and the ones that still have dirty cheap power will be the only ones mining.

Look what happened with oil. It's quite the same from a miner's perspective.

Also, there are 16,841,875BTC. Let's just say there are "1million active accounts".
that is 16.841875BTC per account or $336.83... Pay 1 week rent and you have 0BTC left!

Yeah, and years ago you've had 10k BTC, you were hungry, pizza, and puff....0 BTC.
Your arguments are "One is worth now 10k how can it be worth 10?"

Well, it can happen, there is the possibility, and not the cost of mining or the price of rent will stop it but exactly what those two "economist" completely missed. The real usage and the trust users have in BTC


100% agree there is no fixed cost for generating a coin.

However there is a cost, a variable cost, at the time of production. Someone has to pay for all that electricity. The depreciation of hardware etc etc..

Hence, It is currently costing approx. $2400-$3000 to generate 1BTC.

During 2013-2014 the difficulty just keep rising, people were not turning off their mining equipment, but rather adding to the network. We went from 23TH to 290,000TH (290PH).

Also, I was merely giving an example of what would happen if 1BTC was worth $20.00 at this current time. It just wouldn't function as a payment method, due to the limiting supply.
hero member
Activity: 1218
Merit: 557
It is currently costing approx. $2400-$3000 to generate 1BTC.

Do you really think any miners will sell their coin for $20 each?

Also, there are 16,841,875BTC. Let's just say there are "1million active accounts".

that is 16.841875BTC per account or $336.83... Pay 1 week rent and you have 0BTC left!



Saying is easy than done. Just imagine do you think that bitcoin provides the endless opportunities to the people with its benefit and such benefit in the world will be available at 20$? In that case the homes, mansions, travelling etc all should be in 2 figure as well in the whole world which is not the case. So do not think much about statement and to those people the btc will give them the answer when the price will start rising again.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 6403
Blackjack.fun
It is currently costing approx. $2400-$3000 to generate 1BTC.
Do you really think any miners will sell their coin for $20 each?

There is no fixed cost for generating a coin.
If the price will drop below 1000$ people will just start turning off their miners, difficulty will go down, and the ones that still have dirty cheap power will be the only ones mining.

Look what happened with oil. It's quite the same from a miner's perspective.

Also, there are 16,841,875BTC. Let's just say there are "1million active accounts".
that is 16.841875BTC per account or $336.83... Pay 1 week rent and you have 0BTC left!

Yeah, and years ago you've had 10k BTC, you were hungry, pizza, and puff....0 BTC.
Your arguments are "One is worth now 10k how can it be worth 10?"

Well, it can happen, there is the possibility, and not the cost of mining or the price of rent will stop it but exactly what those two "economist" completely missed. The real usage and the trust users have in BTC
legendary
Activity: 3122
Merit: 1492
What about gold minus speculation? That's probably around $20-$50 of actual usage too.

There can be two types: one type is "same fool".  You know perfectly well that the asset is worthless in itself, but you firmly believe that others believe, and will continue to believe, in the SAME value (more or less) than you are going to spend it on.  Gold is of this type.  Famous old paintings are of this type.   It is a "store of value".  This is a belief that can last for a very, very long time.

The other type is "greater fool".  A pyramid game. You know that the asset is worthless, but you expect to be amongst the early birds in a mode phenomenon, where you'll find a greater fool to sell your asset for MUCH MORE than you paid for it.  In order to stimulate this even more, there needs to be a megalomaniac story that it is ACTUALLY a very useful asset of some future important capital with strong fundamentals, but that only visionaries can see it.  Say, the "monetary system of the future".  This kind of stuff always ends in a bang.

Now, go and think: most people buying bitcoin, do they do this because there are obvious fundamentals (which are not a megalomaniac story that won't work if you think about it 5 minutes) ; do you think that most people do it to put their savings safe, without an expectation of a lot of return, just a safety against loss ; or do you think that most people bought it to sell it to much higher bidders ?  What is YOUR motivation ?

Well, then you know in what category we're playing...


I reckon you are making up the term same fool, I had to do a google search but I found nothing about it hehehe.

In any case, I disagree with your assessment of gold as compared to bitcoin. Look at this chart, https://www.bullionvault.com/gold-price-chart.do then zoom it out to 20 years. It also shows that there are also greater fools in the gold market but with lower volatility.

That is because gold's lower volatility is caused by higher volume and higher liquidity. Gold's daily volume is an estimated  $125.3 billion per day. It is clear that if bitcoin reaches that level of liquidity, its volatility would also go down, for reasons you already know.

sr. member
Activity: 1400
Merit: 347
Nobody trusts and listen to economists here.

Economists are like tamed dogs, whereas we hodlers are the wolves. We dont speak the same language.
hero member
Activity: 735
Merit: 1765
It is currently costing approx. $2400-$3000 to generate 1BTC.

Do you really think any miners will sell their coin for $20 each?

Also, there are 16,841,875BTC. Let's just say there are "1million active accounts".

that is 16.841875BTC per account or $336.83... Pay 1 week rent and you have 0BTC left!

full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 103
Is it time to realize that bitcoin's high price principally came from speculative sources and not real world utilization?
If an asset is growing so fast like Bitcoin did then it is 100% clear that the nature of this growth if truly speculative. But if the guy is just trying to remove all current "speculative" transactions and claimint that it is a "real price" then he is just retarded, sorry. There is nothing bad in healthy speculationm and they will always exist. On the other hand even if you remove all speculative transactions BTC will become more suitable for buying stuff and fees will decrease. This "economist" is trying to get a full picture just by changing 1 detail.
copper member
Activity: 2940
Merit: 4101
Top Crypto Casino
Most economists don't have a deep knowledge about bitcoin, they speculate only using the "traditional methods", analytics, stats.... And most just repeat what they got in their daily news.
They don't consider the bitcoin's evolution, before, now, later. If you think about all the predictions we see, maybe 75% are wrong. Nostradamus would do a better job.
As for the $20 number it doesn't make sense to me, as i said a lot of things aren't considered.

Buy high sell low, if you listen to them, you can become homeless Roll Eyes

Lesson 1:: Advice from an "experienced" economist


jr. member
Activity: 32
Merit: 5
Why did this make the news?

There are economists who predict 1,000,000usd per coin.
There are economists who predict 0 usd per coin.

Who cares? I assume no one makes their decisions based on what two economists say.....or three economists.
hero member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 753
Lol. $20 per bitcoin would be around 0.1% of the all time high for bitcoin. That's way too low of a price for bitcoin to ever sit at.

If the way that their analysis works actually works irl, then silver should probably be rendered worthless, because virtually nobody uses silver as a payment method anymore. They could times silver's supply by 4, and get the amount of transactions silver is facilitating, which is virtually 0 right now, and you'll get probably at max, $1-2 per ounce of silver.

Yes, right now we are seeing bitcoin rise exponentially. Speculation is involved. The growth isn't kicked off by entirely the actual usage in facilitating transactions, but instead people looking at bitcoin's potential in the future and buying & holding their coins.

Bitcoin can be worth its current value and not facilitate 1000x the current amount of transactions. Because people hold it as a store of value.
sr. member
Activity: 882
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I disagree with the comments made by this men and I think one need to actually review the value of blockchain to our contemporary economic as you can actually see that bitcoin has do very well in the area of decentralization and fast transactions which many people value. Bitcoin has also served as  investment angle that has helped a lot of investors and the investors should determined how bitcoin should be valued and not some analog economist.
sr. member
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Funny you are!  I have just pictured these guys smoking weeds and talking about $20 BTC. Suppose in reality Bitcoin will gain again.
full member
Activity: 312
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Just curious about the weed that this two "economist" have been using.
full member
Activity: 560
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Do the bitcoin really need anything more than the believers? No, I don’t think speculative groups are the one maintaining its higher price for past few years. It is us who understand and doesn’t leave the bitcoin behind even with this kind or relentless attack from so called “expert”. Let them talk and give negative comments we don’t have to listen to them or even ignoring those kind of selfish individuals who doesn’t deserve any attention. Maybe they’re dignity been sold and it’s worth 20$, for sure.
hero member
Activity: 770
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What about gold minus speculation? That's probably around $20-$50 of actual usage too.

You're right, concerning gold.  Gold is THE speculative asset over history.  However, exactly its very, very long history has more or less "frozen in" the speculative value of gold.

There are two sources of value: utility and belief.  One usually takes it that "rational" value is only related to utility.  That's called the "fundamental".  Utility has to do with human joy, or absence of human suffering, in the largest sense possible.  If some good or service G provides joy, or helps avoiding suffering of another human being (or something that that human being likes, like his cat), it has economic utility: that human, in need of G, is, in his turn, ready to provide utility (joy) to another human being, if that's the only way to obtain good or service G.  The negociation/power game/.... of all humans concerning the goods and services that bring them utility vs. what they need to sacrifice for it, sets the market price, normally, of things.   The market price is nothing else but the relative ratio's of G one can obtain for other good or service H.

Humans can make plans, and some plan to make a lot of G, in order to sell it to those desiring G, and to obtain a lot of H in place.  The execution of those plans also create needs in an indirect way: production capital.  Production capital derives its value from the amount of G you can make with it, even though nobody is directly in need of that production capital.  As such, the utility of G is what is the "fundamental" of the derived utility of that production capital.  You can now promise production capital, promise plans and all that, and package this in investment assets.  Investment assets are, in principle, things that have to do with ownership and/or exploitation of future or present plans and production capital.  Of course, if it concerns plans for future production of future goods and services, it is hard to predict the future.  So people can have different value estimations of the real fundamental utility of plans and production capital.  This is the stock market.  Even though uncertainties concerning the future are what drives trading in the stock market, normally, the game is to try to be as close as possible to the "true fundamental future value" of stock.  This is "rational speculation".

Of course, at a certain point, things can become very opaque, and there can be assets of which the future estimation of actual fundamentals is extremely uncertain.  Then it is a gamble.  You can't really know.  But even in that case, that gamble is still based upon a rational expectation of, ultimately, some fundamental utility (human joy).

But there's an entirely different way in which assets can acquire value: recursive belief !  These assets can be totally devoid of any relationship to anything of economic utility, it can be that people there is a lock-in of a common belief that others will believe that this asset has value ; if it does, then it HAS value.  The ONLY reason to acquire this asset, is to be able to sell it to someone else.  At no point, we think that it is remotely related to anything of utility. We only think that the belief in its value will not wane.  

There can be two types: one type is "same fool".  You know perfectly well that the asset is worthless in itself, but you firmly believe that others believe, and will continue to believe, in the SAME value (more or less) than you are going to spend it on.  Gold is of this type.  Famous old paintings are of this type.   It is a "store of value".  This is a belief that can last for a very, very long time.

The other type is "greater fool".  A pyramid game.  You know that the asset is worthless, but you expect to be amongst the early birds in a mode phenomenon, where you'll find a greater fool to sell your asset for MUCH MORE than you paid for it.  In order to stimulate this even more, there needs to be a megalomaniac story that it is ACTUALLY a very useful asset of some future important capital with strong fundamentals, but that only visionaries can see it.  Say, the "monetary system of the future".  This kind of stuff always ends in a bang.

Now, go and think: most people buying bitcoin, do they do this because there are obvious fundamentals (which are not a megalomaniac story that won't work if you think about it 5 minutes) ; do you think that most people do it to put their savings safe, without an expectation of a lot of return, just a safety against loss ; or do you think that most people bought it to sell it to much higher bidders ?  What is YOUR motivation ?

Well, then you know in what category we're playing...
legendary
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Life, Love and Laughter...
$20 does not seem unreasonable IMO. I could see it trading around there or even significantly lower. Bitcoin has too many large fundamental problems and external threats for it to really warrant a price over like $5 or so.

Are you from the year 2011?  Welcome to the present (or the future?)!  Grin

Where's your Delorean doc?

There it is!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psxktpxkc6o
legendary
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CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
Nouriel Roubini has popped up to say that bitcoin will plummet “all the way down to zero”.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/feb/02/bitcoin-biggest-bubble-in-history-says-economist-who-predicted-2008-crash

Of course the rules of bull markets still apply - it only really turns when the last bear has capitulated and given up hope of the market going down - and as we can see that hasn't happened yet, there are plenty of bears predicting crashes.
full member
Activity: 266
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$20 does not seem unreasonable IMO. I could see it trading around there or even significantly lower. Bitcoin has too many large fundamental problems and external threats for it to really warrant a price over like $5 or so.
full member
Activity: 518
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Very way absurd! Sure, you are going to be getting a lot of negative comments just because there is no sense in what those paid economist have said. Sure, Bitcoin may be a speculative asset and it was way overbought at some point, but the value is what it is and what you and I have decided to sell what we are holding as long as someone is ready to accept the price for it. We should not also forget the limited supply as well. However, if they both feel it should be trading at $20, no one is definitely stopping anyone from hitting the exchange to go sell at $20, at least they won't even have to bid at all.
hero member
Activity: 1414
Merit: 516
I'm tired of this economists and of all governments who don't want people to evolve. This who are against bitcoin want that people from their country to work a lot so they can get huge profit and give back only a low % share.

Don't sell your bitcoin for so low price.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
Is it time to realize that bitcoin's high price principally came from speculative sources and not real world utilization?

In fact, in 2015 I came to that kind of number too.  You find it by having a rough estimation of the actual volume of bitcoin used to buy "goods and services" and assume a velocity similar to fiat, like the dollar.   Using Fisher's formula, you can then estimate the "currency value" of the monetary asset at hand. I looked at volumes like bitpay, added a good factor to it (dark markets etc...) and I also arrived in the few $ to a few tens of $.
I have the impression that real currency usage of bitcoin hasn't increased (maybe rather decreased since).

This is why, in 2015, I waited in vain for a bottom of a few $10.  But it never came, because bitcoin is not a currency.  That's a parasitic side effect of it.  Bitcoin is pure speculation.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 6403
Blackjack.fun

An "economist" opinion means nowadays zero, or 0.000001 if he has a twitter account. We all know what happened in 2007 and how economists were able to estimate s***. And the ones that did manage to get things right screwed up 20 times after.

Lets's start:
Quote
The supply of bitcoin increases only slowly towards its famous fixed limit and is now around 15m.
If you're an economist and you play with numbers like that then...you're not an economist, it's 16.8 you moron.

Quote
The use of bitcoin as a means of payment is currently around $100m per month, or $1,200m a year.
Where the hell did he get those numbers from?
https://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume

And at this point...arguing about it useless.
But let's do the math with his own method but real numbers.

Since the value of transactions is 2 billion a day (based on the same damn newspaper the guys write for link

We would have to increase the price once 20 times and again 30 times.
Leading to a value of ...surprise  12 000$

PS.
bbc.reporter I'm sure you understand I'm not arguing with you but with Mister Richard Jackoff
 
legendary
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Bitcoin is death threads coming up, good sign.
legendary
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@gentlemand. But they did not discount speculation. It is the precise reason why they are under the impression that bitcoin is still trading up above its true fundamental value of, according to their calculations, $20.

This is their reasoning.

The supply of bitcoin increases only slowly towards its famous fixed limit and is now around 15m. The use of bitcoin as a means of payment is currently around $100m per month, or $1,200m a year. Were bitcoin just like ordinary money each bitcoin would be used around four times a year in making transactions. So we have 60m bitcoin payments supporting $1,200m worth of bitcoin transactions, which requires that each bitcoin is worth $20.

They also said that for bitcoin to give grounds on its present value, utilization must increase by 1000 fold.
legendary
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Welt Am Draht
@alyssa85. They are economists, and for that reason they always look for an investments' fundamental value. I reckon something like bitcoin is defying what they have studied about their whole lives. Also if bitcoin proves them wrong, they now would have to question their PHDs and their beliefs.

But I do agree that what took bitcoin to $20,000 was speculative mania.



How can a professional economist discount speculation? That's a cornerstone of all economies. This was definitely mania but if someone I was employing came out with statements of such stunning naivety I'd fire their arses off.
legendary
Activity: 3122
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@alyssa85. They are economists, and for that reason they always look for an investments' fundamental value. I reckon something like bitcoin is defying what they have studied about their whole lives. Also if bitcoin proves them wrong, they now would have to question their PHDs and their beliefs.

But I do agree that what took bitcoin to $20,000 was speculative mania.

legendary
Activity: 2590
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Welt Am Draht
If they're paid economists who write stuff like this... this is sub kindergarten shit.

What about gold minus speculation? That's probably around $20-$50 of actual usage too. What about Tesla? What about almost everything else on this Earth at present?

If they can magically excise speculation from Bitcoin then go right ahead. I'll look forward to Bitcoin NoSpeculationOrYou'reCanned.
legendary
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It hasn't been $20 for at least 7 years.

I think they're just trying to score headlines with their "shock" prediction. The fact is, bitcoin's worth is what people are willing to pay for it. And there are plenty of folk that think it's a store of value that will protect them from the vagaries of the normal economy and investments. And that includes a bunch of well-heeled hedge fund guys...
legendary
Activity: 3122
Merit: 1492
Is it time to realize that bitcoin's high price principally came from speculative sources and not real world utilization? I know I will get a lot of negative replies by saying it, but a simple look at the market shows that it is true. With the speculatory mania gone, what does the bitcoin market really have?



Richard Jackman, an economist at the London School of Economics, and Savvas Savouri, an economist at Toscafund Asset Management, however, estimate the coin is still trading far higher than it should.

That number, according to Jackman and Savouri, is a mere $20. Here's their logic:

The supply of bitcoin increases only slowly towards its famous fixed limit and is now around 15m. The use of bitcoin as a means of payment is currently around $100m per month, or $1,200m a year. Were bitcoin just like ordinary money each bitcoin would be used around four times a year in making transactions. So we have 60m bitcoin payments supporting $1,200m worth of bitcoin transactions, which requires that each bitcoin is worth $20.

There's always a "but" with such analysis. And the "but" in this case is that bitcoin could be worth its current value, but it would have to see a 1000-fold increase in its use as a form of payment.


Read the full article http://www.businessinsider.com/2-economists-just-eviscerated-bitcoin-saying-it-should-be-trading-at-20-2018-2
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