That's a refreshing read. No hysteria, good analysis and interesting speculation.
"Based on how nonplussed Gox and their staff have been, as well as the resilience of the market following announcement of the seizure, I don’t think the sum value of seized funds was significant with respect to Gox’s cash flow." I hadn't thought of that, but it seems to make sense. The scale of this event may be much smaller than we might have been assuming.
"the seizure order doesn’t indicate that DHS will try to throw Karpeles in jail. Rather, they want compliance with, or less blatant disregard for, money services businesses registration requirements." Perhaps it really is this mundane and the State just likes to remind everyone of its muscle by using a "seizure" instead of a letter requesting compliance. Maybe they like the extra revenue they get from a "seizure" too - they certainly need revenue these days.
Topic: 2013-05-14 Department of Homeland Security Shuts Down Dwolla Payments to/frm Gox (Read 3588 times)
May 16, 2013, 07:57:05 AM
May 15, 2013, 11:16:47 PM
This is worth reading - analysis of the bust, with an informative graph:
http://numismatics.pwnz.org/?p=222
Summary - it could've been much worse, Gox will have a chance to get their crap together.
http://numismatics.pwnz.org/?p=222
Summary - it could've been much worse, Gox will have a chance to get their crap together.
It depends, if Gox is forced to comply with legislation that has to disclose the sender and recipients of all USD transactions that they handle, the could be tricky for invalidated accounts. The may feel that they would loose too much business to do so.
May 15, 2013, 10:46:23 PM
This is worth reading - analysis of the bust, with an informative graph:
http://numismatics.pwnz.org/?p=222
Summary - it could've been much worse, Gox will have a chance to get their crap together.
http://numismatics.pwnz.org/?p=222
Summary - it could've been much worse, Gox will have a chance to get their crap together.
May 15, 2013, 09:28:35 PM
Maybe the most surprising in all of this is the resilience bitcoin has shown to this event. The market reacted only briefly with a ~20% drop, but has already mostly recovered.
Wasn't even that much, went from $119.80 to $103.2 on Gox, that's a drop of about 13.8% and it was back up to $116 a couple of hours later.
May 15, 2013, 09:25:50 PM
For all the complete lack of planning we have witnessed with Gox, Karpeles should be given credit for his foresight of setting up the exchange in Japan. So far the authority there still doesn't seem to know what's going on and why should they care.
Karpeles didn't setup mtgox in japan, he just bought it. As for Japan not knowing what is going on or why they should care, that's naive. If US says jump, Japan will say how high.
You're right with Gox, though Karpeles chose to go to Japan to find a job and keep the exchange there, so he played a role. As for japanese authority, I think it's actually naive to believe U.S can just have its way with Japan, or other sovereign nations, things are not as simple as on a high school playground, your alliance complies with your request when it suits their interest, while turns a deaf ear if it doesn't.
Thank christ that Gox isn't located in the UK.
Nah, there are times when even the UK Gov will be hesitant, otherwise they can just storm Ecuador's embassy, rather than spending millions of pounds to station policemen at its entrance.
The UK just might be the answer to a lot of the bitcoin/fiat transfer drama. London has the single greatest concentration of FX services. Once they realize crypotocurrency is the future of money they will be desperate to be a hub for it as well. They will want to host it and cleverly apply financial regulation so weak that a kitten could walk through it.
May 15, 2013, 09:10:47 PM
For all the complete lack of planning we have witnessed with Gox, Karpeles should be given credit for his foresight of setting up the exchange in Japan. So far the authority there still doesn't seem to know what's going on and why should they care.
Karpeles didn't setup mtgox in japan, he just bought it. As for Japan not knowing what is going on or why they should care, that's naive. If US says jump, Japan will say how high.
You're right with Gox, though Karpeles chose to go to Japan to find a job and keep the exchange there, so he played a role. As for japanese authority, I think it's actually naive to believe U.S can just have its way with Japan, or other sovereign nations, things are not as simple as on a high school playground, your alliance complies with your request when it suits their interest, while turns a deaf ear if it doesn't.
Thank christ that Gox isn't located in the UK.
Nah, there are times when even the UK Gov will be hesitant, otherwise they can just storm Ecuador's embassy, rather than spending millions of pounds to station policemen at its entrance.
May 15, 2013, 12:05:51 PM
Anyone else who hasn't soiled their pants but reads this as "Bitcoin just got a bit harder to buy"?
Maybe the most surprising in all of this is the resilience bitcoin has shown to this event. The market reacted only briefly with a ~20% drop, but has already mostly recovered.
May 15, 2013, 11:41:00 AM
Anyone else who hasn't soiled their pants but reads this as "Bitcoin just got a bit harder to buy"?
May 15, 2013, 10:00:58 AM
Does anyone know, with a good degree of certainty (not guesses), if this has anything to do with Vesseness and their lawsuit?
There may be more to this story. Remember, MtGox supposedly agreed to move/transfer all US client accounts to US-based Coinlab - but for some reason they chose not to - even when facing a $75M lawsuit.
Why? Would things have played out differently if they had? Possibly.
(just a guess)
May 15, 2013, 09:45:30 AM
For all the complete lack of planning we have witnessed with Gox, Karpeles should be given credit for his foresight of setting up the exchange in Japan. So far the authority there still doesn't seem to know what's going on and why should they care.
Karpeles didn't setup mtgox in japan, he just bought it. As for Japan not knowing what is going on or why they should care, that's naive. If US says jump, Japan will say how high.
You're right with Gox, though Karpeles chose to go to Japan to find a job and keep the exchange there, so he played a role. As for japanese authority, I think it's actually naive to believe U.S can just have its way with Japan, or other sovereign nations, things are not as simple as on a high school playground, your alliance complies with your request when it suits their interest, while turns a deaf ear if it doesn't.
Thank christ that Gox isn't located in the UK.
May 15, 2013, 08:57:51 AM
For all the complete lack of planning we have witnessed with Gox, Karpeles should be given credit for his foresight of setting up the exchange in Japan. So far the authority there still doesn't seem to know what's going on and why should they care.
Karpeles didn't setup mtgox in japan, he just bought it. As for Japan not knowing what is going on or why they should care, that's naive. If US says jump, Japan will say how high.
You're right with Gox, though Karpeles chose to go to Japan to find a job and keep the exchange there, so he played a role. As for japanese authority, I think it's actually naive to believe U.S can just have its way with Japan, or other sovereign nations, things are not as simple as on a high school playground, your alliance complies with your request when it suits their interest, while turns a deaf ear if it doesn't.
May 15, 2013, 03:32:15 AM
Does anyone know, with a good degree of certainty (not guesses), if this has anything to do with Vesseness and their lawsuit?
I'm increasingly suspicious about this individual. He seems to be a man of "contacts". (VC support, opening TBF on Washington D.C. etc).
I'm increasingly suspicious about this individual. He seems to be a man of "contacts". (VC support, opening TBF on Washington D.C. etc).
May 15, 2013, 03:00:29 AM
all USD funds going into Mt. Gox go through ONE Dwolla account it seems
Huh?! No. A lot of people do direct wire transfers with mtgox, no dwolla involved at all. Mtgox supports a good half dozen transfer mechanisms.Oops, I meant to say "... all USD Dwolla funds going into Gox goes through one Dwolla account ... " ... good catch hawk-eye. And it actually should be USD Dwolla funds coming/going to Mt. Gox on further reading.
May 15, 2013, 02:24:19 AM
Ugh, I verified with Gox so I could do Dwolla transfers. I hadn't even used it yet. Now I can't, but my name might be going on a "list" if DHS seizes Gox's documents.
I have never transferred fiat too or from Gox only BTC.
May 15, 2013, 02:23:24 AM
all USD funds going into Mt. Gox go through ONE Dwolla account it seems
Huh?! No. A lot of people do direct wire transfers with mtgox, no dwolla involved at all. Mtgox supports a good half dozen transfer mechanisms. May 15, 2013, 02:21:08 AM
Ugh, I verified with Gox so I could do Dwolla transfers. I hadn't even used it yet. Now I can't, but my name might be going on a "list" if DHS seizes Gox's documents.
May 15, 2013, 02:18:24 AM
For all the complete lack of planning we have witnessed with Gox, Karpeles should be given credit for his foresight of setting up the exchange in Japan. So far the authority there still doesn't seem to know what's going on and why should they care.
Karpeles didn't setup mtgox in japan, he just bought it. As for Japan not knowing what is going on or why they should care, that's naive. If US says jump, Japan will say how high.
So how does that fit with the US often complaining about countries that are "currency manipulators", when Japan is the worst offender and never gets mentioned.
US is the biggest currency manipulator ever, that's one of the main reasons Bitcoin came it exist in defiance of that manipulation. The US just point the finger at others to deflect attention.
http://www.policymic.com/articles/17742/ron-paul-warned-us-united-states-not-china-is-biggest-currency-manipulator
May 15, 2013, 02:12:46 AM
For all the complete lack of planning we have witnessed with Gox, Karpeles should be given credit for his foresight of setting up the exchange in Japan. So far the authority there still doesn't seem to know what's going on and why should they care.
Karpeles didn't setup mtgox in japan, he just bought it. As for Japan not knowing what is going on or why they should care, that's naive. If US says jump, Japan will say how high.
So how does that fit with the US often complaining about countries that are "currency manipulators", when Japan is the worst offender and never gets mentioned.
May 15, 2013, 02:00:30 AM
the DHS has been gearing up for civil unrest for some time and just might know when the plug will be pulled on the US dollar.. possible buy indicator.
May 15, 2013, 01:50:48 AM
Trouble is this kind of thing drives the markets, Gox went from $119 to $103 in no time when it hit the news.
May 15, 2013, 12:00:55 AM
For all the complete lack of planning we have witnessed with Gox, Karpeles should be given credit for his foresight of setting up the exchange in Japan. So far the authority there still doesn't seem to know what's going on and why should they care.
Karpeles didn't setup mtgox in japan, he just bought it. As for Japan not knowing what is going on or why they should care, that's naive. If US says jump, Japan will say how high.
May 14, 2013, 11:25:23 PM
For all the complete lack of planning we have witnessed with Gox, Karpeles should be given credit for his foresight of setting up the exchange in Japan. So far the authority there still doesn't seem to know what's going on and why should they care.
May 14, 2013, 10:53:00 PM
for every action there is a reaction.
i wonder what role the Chinese will play in this. there have been hints that they might actually support the Bitcoin concept. is DHS sending a message?
if so, i'm sure a response will be forthcoming in some form or manner.
i wonder what role the Chinese will play in this. there have been hints that they might actually support the Bitcoin concept. is DHS sending a message?
if so, i'm sure a response will be forthcoming in some form or manner.
May 14, 2013, 09:05:30 PM
I knew this was coming, but I didn't see the bastards acting so soon. Its depressing, frankly. While I do know there are other exchanges and local trades won't be impeded - it bothers me that these overstepping bastards have the gall to take their blue-gloved groping into an area they barely comprehend.
There's a small chance this is a hoax, and another chance its just the first shot in the campaign to attack bitcoin.
I'm not giving up, but godammit - this really pisses me off.
There's a small chance this is a hoax, and another chance its just the first shot in the campaign to attack bitcoin.
I'm not giving up, but godammit - this really pisses me off.
It is an obvious soft target ... all USD funds going into Mt. Gox go through ONE Dwolla account it seems. Pretty easy to apply pressure there with a sealed seizure warrant so they don't have to tell anybody anything anytime and just do it ... tie it up in courts for years. This is how LE operates these days since they got everything they wanted with the "anti-terrorism" overreach legislation and woeful judiciary rulings ... basically above the law. Suppose just be glad you aren't rotting in Gitmo for a decade waiting for a hearing. Symptomatic of the sick system ... ask anyone from former communist states how this is all playing out, they've seen it all before.
May 14, 2013, 08:47:23 PM
I knew this was coming, but I didn't see the bastards acting so soon. Its depressing, frankly. While I do know there are other exchanges and local trades won't be impeded - it bothers me that these overstepping bastards have the gall to take their blue-gloved groping into an area they barely comprehend.
There's a small chance this is a hoax, and another chance its just the first shot in the campaign to attack bitcoin.
I'm not giving up, but godammit - this really pisses me off.
There's a small chance this is a hoax, and another chance its just the first shot in the campaign to attack bitcoin.
I'm not giving up, but godammit - this really pisses me off.
May 14, 2013, 07:43:00 PM
Quote
Dwolla cutting off bitcoin transfers to Mt. Gox.
of course Dwolla can't cut off bitcoin transactions to Gox ... only dollar transactions. But hey never let facts get into a news story shall we?
May 14, 2013, 07:27:03 PM
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57584511-38/homeland-security-cuts-off-dwolla-bitcoin-transfers/
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/05/feds-seize-money-from-top-bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox/
Nothing new.
http://gigaom.com/2013/05/14/homeland-security-seizes-funds-at-main-bitcoin-exchange-report/
Quote
Immigration and Customs Enforcement confirms an "ongoing investigation" that led to Dwolla cutting off bitcoin transfers to Mt. Gox.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/05/feds-seize-money-from-top-bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox/
Nothing new.
http://gigaom.com/2013/05/14/homeland-security-seizes-funds-at-main-bitcoin-exchange-report/
Quote
Homeland Security typically executes seizure warrants in connection with criminal investigations and Coyne’s screenshot refers to actions in the US District Court of Maryland. A search of court records, however, comes up empty — which could mean the records are under seal.
May 14, 2013, 07:12:46 PM
Really... by now I just wish BTC to crash and all the VC vultures to lose all the money they invested. THEY ARE THE REAL PROBLEM. Them and the bitcoin foundation, which was turned into a commercial enterprise without you guys even noticing lol
The dude from coinlab and his (bitcoinica) lawyer are... you can fill the gap by yourself if you think a little
The dude from coinlab and his (bitcoinica) lawyer are... you can fill the gap by yourself if you think a little
Venture capitalists building businesses around bitcoin is a good thing...
Dude, VC's don't get it right 99% of the time.
Yeah, they have a lot of money, but principles...
May 14, 2013, 06:53:18 PM
Really... by now I just wish BTC to crash and all the VC vultures to lose all the money they invested. THEY ARE THE REAL PROBLEM. Them and the bitcoin foundation, which was turned into a commercial enterprise without you guys even noticing lol
The dude from coinlab and his (bitcoinica) lawyer are... you can fill the gap by yourself if you think a little
The dude from coinlab and his (bitcoinica) lawyer are... you can fill the gap by yourself if you think a little
I always thought of bitcoin as a commercial adventure.
May 14, 2013, 06:50:52 PM
DHS agents might be looking to buy in to BitCoins at a lower price? 
If they were smart.
May 14, 2013, 06:47:44 PM
Really... by now I just wish BTC to crash and all the VC vultures to lose all the money they invested. THEY ARE THE REAL PROBLEM. Them and the bitcoin foundation, which was turned into a commercial enterprise without you guys even noticing lol
The dude from coinlab and his (bitcoinica) lawyer are... you can fill the gap by yourself if you think a little
The dude from coinlab and his (bitcoinica) lawyer are... you can fill the gap by yourself if you think a little
Yeah ... I'm in two minds here. If the VC's finally get a taste of how authoritarian the govt. has become they may turn in valuable allies. Question for me is whether the more 'compliant' amongst them can weild sufficient influence to turn bitcoin into the whipped pup the govt. might want (if they actually understood it) ... I'm betting they can't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDWJGslOf70
May 14, 2013, 06:41:38 PM
Really... by now I just wish BTC to crash and all the VC vultures to lose all the money they invested. THEY ARE THE REAL PROBLEM. Them and the bitcoin foundation, which was turned into a commercial enterprise without you guys even noticing lol
The dude from coinlab and his (bitcoinica) lawyer are... you can fill the gap by yourself if you think a little
The dude from coinlab and his (bitcoinica) lawyer are... you can fill the gap by yourself if you think a little
Yeah ... I'm in two minds here. If the VC's finally get a taste of how authoritarian the govt. has become they may turn into valuable allies. Question for me is whether the more 'compliant' amongst them can wield sufficient influence to turn bitcoin into the whipped pup the govt. might want (if they actually understood it) ... I'm betting they can't.
May 14, 2013, 06:31:10 PM
Really... by now I just wish BTC to crash and all the VC vultures to lose all the money they invested. THEY ARE THE REAL PROBLEM. Them and the bitcoin foundation, which was turned into a commercial enterprise without you guys even noticing lol
The dude from coinlab and his (bitcoinica) lawyer are... you can fill the gap by yourself if you think a little
The dude from coinlab and his (bitcoinica) lawyer are... you can fill the gap by yourself if you think a little
May 14, 2013, 06:30:33 PM
DHS agents might be looking to buy in to BitCoins at a lower price?
May 14, 2013, 06:20:03 PM
Well, this would suggest that bitcoin isn't just another tentacle of a larger surveillance project like trapwire ... or then again this could just be for plausible deniability.
May 14, 2013, 06:12:21 PM
Not a lot more detail, but plenty of speculation as more press take note:
http://www.businessinsider.com/dwolla-mt-gox-2013-5
Speculation, plus interesting guidance from a VC on what the community ought to do to prevent death-dealing regulation.
http://pandodaily.com/2013/05/14/dept-of-homeland-security-freezes-accounts-between-dwolla-and-bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox/
http://www.businessinsider.com/dwolla-mt-gox-2013-5
Speculation, plus interesting guidance from a VC on what the community ought to do to prevent death-dealing regulation.
http://pandodaily.com/2013/05/14/dept-of-homeland-security-freezes-accounts-between-dwolla-and-bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox/
Quote
We are prompted to wonder whether this is this the first of a series of governmental assaults on the exchanges? That’s what they’d target if they want to put the kibosh on bitcoin. Or, is this a case where DHS is investigating some individual or organization who may have used bitcoins, via Dwolla, for some potentially nefarious or terroristic reasons?
Members of the PandoDaily team have spoken to sources close to the bitcoin ecosystem and have been hearing that it’s likely the former.
Members of the PandoDaily team have spoken to sources close to the bitcoin ecosystem and have been hearing that it’s likely the former.
May 14, 2013, 05:37:49 PM
If this is even true at all, the original email said that it requires a "seizure warrant" to take funds, not the way betanews worded it. If not totally bogus, it's being used to trash BTC by someone. And why was the email only posted at HackerNews of all places?
May 14, 2013, 05:19:57 PM
I don't know. What could he do? What would you tell him?
Tell him to smoke a bowl.
But seriously, this is most likely related to Gox failing to lrn 2 bizness and the resulting suit with Coinlab.
Not it is Dept. of Homeland Security ... so not a commercially driven action (officially) but done under of guise of "protecting the citizens" .... from what exactly is left to your imagination mostly.
May 14, 2013, 05:07:12 PM
But seriously, this is most likely related to Gox failing to lrn 2 bizness and the resulting suit with Coinlab.
Failing to lrn 2 bizness? What? Speak ENGLISH!
May 14, 2013, 04:24:18 PM
I don't know. What could he do? What would you tell him?
Tell him to smoke a bowl.
But seriously, this is most likely related to Gox failing to lrn 2 bizness and the resulting suit with Coinlab.
May 14, 2013, 04:20:25 PM
If you saw Atlas, the giant who holds the world on his shoulders, if you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater the effort the heavier the world bore down upon his shoulders -- what would you tell him to do?
I don't know. What could he do? What would you tell him?
To shrug.
I don't know. What could he do? What would you tell him?
To shrug.
May 14, 2013, 03:43:52 PM
http://betabeat.com/2013/05/department-of-homeland-security-shuts-down-dwolla-payments-to-and-from-mt-gox/
Quote
A representative for Dwolla told Betabeat that the company is “not party” to this matter and encourages those with questions to reach out to Mt. Gox or the DHS. “The Department of Homeland Security and U.S. District Court for the District of Maryland issued a ‘Seizure Warrant’ for the funds associated with Mutum Sigillium’s Dwolla account (a.k.a. Mt. Gox),” he said. “In light of the court order, procured by the Department of Homeland Security, Dwolla has ceased all account activities associated with Dwolla services for Mutum Sigillum while Dwolla’s holding partner transferred Mutum Sigillium’s balance, per the warrant.”
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