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Topic: 2013-07-01 WSJ - Winklevoss Twins File to Launch Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Product (Read 5087 times)

newbie
Activity: 52
Merit: 0
What will be the smallest number of shares one can buy?

1? Or 100?  More?

Usually 1, but if you buy less then 100 you have to pay a odd lot fee.

I never understood what's the advantage of buying shares in a trust over buying the underlying commodity itself.

Well i'm just a private individual not a VC though.

Liquidity, storage, dealing with delivery.

newbie
Activity: 52
Merit: 0
The interesting thing is the filing keeps referring to their holdings as "math-based assets."  I'm wondering if this leaves room for alt currencies.
Actually, the filing never refers to their holdings as just "math-based assets", it specifically refers to their holdings as "Bitcoins", defined as "a type of a Digital Math-Based Asset". The filing does refer to altcoins as examples of alternative Digital Math-Based Assets and Bitcoin's competion, though the Trust does not deal in anything other than bitcoins specifically.

Exactly.  Even if there was demand for a ETF for an alternative CC it wouldn't make sense for a single ETF and single trust to handle both.  I mean there are Physical Gold ETFs and Physical Silver ETFs but you don't see mixed Silver & Gold ETFs.  Ticker symbols are cheap and there are thousands of ETFs.  If the first one gets approved and there is demand no reason you couldn't have a whole family of CC based ETFs.

http://www.invescopowershares.com/products/overview.aspx?ticker=DBP

I am sure there are others.    Though most ETFs do not have an asset manager so I guess if they wanted to creat a mixed fund they would have to define a mix pegged to either value in a fiat currency,  or to one of the other currencies to maintain.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1019
As a politician, you don't wanna be the guy that torpedos an asset that's held in a bunch of people's retirement brokerage accounts.

+100,000BTC !
That is the best point in the protection of BTC from some of stupid government decisions which I have ever heard!


who cares if you flee the country with bitcoins (REAL bitcoins mind you, we're not about that paper-cert life) bought with ill-gotten gains :p
sr. member
Activity: 263
Merit: 250
As a politician, you don't wanna be the guy that torpedos an asset that's held in a bunch of people's retirement brokerage accounts.

+100,000BTC !
That is the best point in the protection of BTC from some of stupid government decisions which I have ever heard!
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
I recommend looking at the chart of gold after 2004 or silver after 2006 in order to understand the impact of ease-of-purchase and institutional money flowing into an asset that was formerly cumbersome to buy.

Basically if this thing gets approved (and I see no reason for it not to be), there will likely be another large parabolic rise.

Not to mention that I have never seen so much coverage across so many news outlets for Bitcoin as what has happened though this news.  We should all be grateful to these guys.

The more people that own BTC (even if indirectly through an ETF), the more difficult it will be for governments to attempt to pull the plug.  As a politician, you don't wanna be the guy that torpedos an asset that's held in a bunch of people's retirement brokerage accounts.
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1000
legendary
Activity: 1450
Merit: 1013
Cryptanalyst castrated by his government, 1952
legendary
Activity: 1450
Merit: 1013
Cryptanalyst castrated by his government, 1952
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1000
There is a poll today on yahoo finance about this most of the choices as well as the votes are negative tho.  Angry

link? found it
link?
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
♫ A wave came crashing like a fist to the jaw ♫
There is a poll today on yahoo finance about this most of the choices as well as the votes are negative tho.  Angry

link? found it
newbie
Activity: 53
Merit: 0
There is a poll today on yahoo finance about this most of the choices as well as the votes are negative tho.  Angry
hero member
Activity: 767
Merit: 500
the winkelvii aren't trading bitcoin here, they are just offering shares in their company that holds bitcoin.

If they have 1% of all bitcoins, that's 100,000 BTC which is approximately 100M USD - so this is the valuation of their 'company'.  They are offering stock in approximately 20M USD and so you will own part of the company whose valuation will float on the price of bitcoin.  They will keep 80% of the company and sell stock up to 20%.

There is nothing new in what they are doing here - just offering stock in a company.  All the winkelvii are doing is spreading their risk - they aren't selling bitcoins or trading bitcoins from fiat.  This doesn't seem that much of a big deal to me other than the media attention this will garner.

Will
No, that's not what they're doing at all. It is not a company and in no way resembles a company. It is a trust that holds bitcoins and issues shares that represent a claim of ownership on those bitcoins and can be redeemed for those bitcoins by any trustor at any time

Thanks for the info. I stand corrected.

Will
legendary
Activity: 1795
Merit: 1208
This is not OK.
This story is spreading, now on bloomberg tv headlines.





More importantly, those teeth look ridiculous.
hero member
Activity: 520
Merit: 500
I didn't read the filing, but I hope they publish the public key where the holdings will be stored. Instant audit.
newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 0
I never understood what's the advantage of buying shares in a trust over buying the underlying commodity itself.

Well i'm just a private individual not a VC though.
I'm also just a private individual. That's why I don't have a massive, impenetrable vault in my basement for storing my gold, instead I just buy gold ETFs. Similarly, although I have the technical experience to safely store my bitcoins, most people do not. These people will certainly not buy actual bitcoins, but they may be willing to invest in a bitcoin ETF where they don't have to worry about that. That's the advantage.

However this advantage comes with the added risk of not directly controlling the commodity and having to trust the ETF entity so I doubt it is a true advantage.
Neither gold or bitcoins need much storage space. And in case you own considerable amounts you can also afford extra security.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
♫ A wave came crashing like a fist to the jaw ♫
This story is spreading, now on bloomberg tv headlines.



legendary
Activity: 4551
Merit: 3445
Vile Vixen and Miss Bitcointalk 2021-2023
I never understood what's the advantage of buying shares in a trust over buying the underlying commodity itself.

Well i'm just a private individual not a VC though.
I'm also just a private individual. That's why I don't have a massive, impenetrable vault in my basement for storing my gold, instead I just buy gold ETFs. Similarly, although I have the technical experience to safely store my bitcoins, most people do not. These people will certainly not buy actual bitcoins, but they may be willing to invest in a bitcoin ETF where they don't have to worry about that. That's the advantage.
sr. member
Activity: 453
Merit: 250
Some twitter snark picked up from the comments at Hacker News:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5973971

Quote
Favorite snarky tweets in my feed...

"Bitcoin ETF" is an anagram of "Fiction Bet" which seems pretty apt.. https://twitter.com/LorcanRK/status/351840221773578241
Bitcoin ETF ticker ideas: $DCHE $LOSS $ZERO $SCAM (via @jamesvonsimson - his idea: $SCKR) https://twitter.com/finansakrobat/status/351837836724551682
Well, at least the Winkelvii Bitcoin trust is consistent with their practice of being parasitic on new innovation… https://twitter.com/EpicureanDeal/status/351834917593817088
The Winkelvoss Bitcoin ETF is the first of many wonderful deals brought to you by the JOBS Act (Just Open Bucket Shops). https://twitter.com/ReformedBroker/status/351830441646489601
Imagine the call "if you got burned on the Facebook IPO, why don't you take the Winklevoss Bitcoin Trust for a spin?" https://twitter.com/BarbarianCap/status/351825104147189760
newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 0
I never understood what's the advantage of buying shares in a trust over buying the underlying commodity itself.

Well i'm just a private individual not a VC though.
legendary
Activity: 4551
Merit: 3445
Vile Vixen and Miss Bitcointalk 2021-2023
the winkelvii aren't trading bitcoin here, they are just offering shares in their company that holds bitcoin.

If they have 1% of all bitcoins, that's 100,000 BTC which is approximately 100M USD - so this is the valuation of their 'company'.  They are offering stock in approximately 20M USD and so you will own part of the company whose valuation will float on the price of bitcoin.  They will keep 80% of the company and sell stock up to 20%.

There is nothing new in what they are doing here - just offering stock in a company.  All the winkelvii are doing is spreading their risk - they aren't selling bitcoins or trading bitcoins from fiat.  This doesn't seem that much of a big deal to me other than the media attention this will garner.

Will
No, that's not what they're doing at all. It is not a company and in no way resembles a company. It is a trust that holds bitcoins and issues shares that represent a claim of ownership on those bitcoins and can be redeemed for those bitcoins by any trustor at any time (conversely, the trust will "buy" bitcoins from trustors by issuing new shares in exchange). The basic idea is that investors will buy the shares from the trustors and then trade them on a public exchange such as NASDAQ, but no bitcoins will actually change hands until the shares are redeemed or new shares are issued (which will happen due to arbitrage if the share price deviates too far from the price of actual bitcoins). This is pretty much exactly the same way commodity ETFs are issued and traded.

EDIT: Typo
hero member
Activity: 767
Merit: 500
the winkelvii aren't trading bitcoin here, they are just offering shares in their company that holds bitcoin.

If they have 1% of all bitcoins, that's 100,000 BTC which is approximately 100M USD - so this is the valuation of their 'company'.  They are offering stock in approximately 20M USD and so you will own part of the company whose valuation will float on the price of bitcoin.  They will keep 80% of the company and sell stock up to 20%.

There is nothing new in what they are doing here - just offering stock in a company.  All the winkelvii are doing is spreading their risk - they aren't selling bitcoins or trading bitcoins from fiat.  This doesn't seem that much of a big deal to me other than the media attention this will garner.

Will
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
Exactly.  Even if there was demand for a ETF for an alternative CC it wouldn't make sense for a single ETF and single trust to handle both.  I mean there are Physical Gold ETFs and Physical Silver ETFs but you don't see mixed Silver & Gold ETFs.  Ticker symbols are cheap and there are thousands of ETFs.  If the first one gets approved and there is demand no reason you couldn't have a whole family of CC based ETFs.

There is the Central Fund of Canada. It is not actually ETF iirc though, but a company whose idea is to act as ETF before they existed.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1019
I'd like to know their model for trading the underlying asset. Where will the balance be held and who by? The Winkelvii?

I hope they do it right. The last thing we need is a crash caused by a bucket shop operation.

Apparently they're hiding the private key for the underlying asset in a US bank vault.
donator
Activity: 848
Merit: 1078
I'd like to know their model for trading the underlying asset. Where will the balance be held and who by? The Winkelvii?

I hope they do it right. The last thing we need is a crash caused by a bucket shop operation.
legendary
Activity: 2128
Merit: 1031
What will be the smallest number of shares one can buy?

1? Or 100?  More?
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1080
Gerald Davis
The interesting thing is the filing keeps referring to their holdings as "math-based assets."  I'm wondering if this leaves room for alt currencies.
Actually, the filing never refers to their holdings as just "math-based assets", it specifically refers to their holdings as "Bitcoins", defined as "a type of a Digital Math-Based Asset". The filing does refer to altcoins as examples of alternative Digital Math-Based Assets and Bitcoin's competion, though the Trust does not deal in anything other than bitcoins specifically.

Exactly.  Even if there was demand for a ETF for an alternative CC it wouldn't make sense for a single ETF and single trust to handle both.  I mean there are Physical Gold ETFs and Physical Silver ETFs but you don't see mixed Silver & Gold ETFs.  Ticker symbols are cheap and there are thousands of ETFs.  If the first one gets approved and there is demand no reason you couldn't have a whole family of CC based ETFs.
legendary
Activity: 4551
Merit: 3445
Vile Vixen and Miss Bitcointalk 2021-2023
The interesting thing is the filing keeps referring to their holdings as "math-based assets."  I'm wondering if this leaves room for alt currencies.
Actually, the filing never refers to their holdings as just "math-based assets", it specifically refers to their holdings as "Bitcoins", defined as "a type of a Digital Math-Based Asset". The filing does refer to altcoins as examples of alternative Digital Math-Based Assets and Bitcoin's competion, though the Trust does not deal in anything other than bitcoins specifically.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
Watching this. Looks interesting.

Smoothie, wanna start a Litecoin ETP now?  Grin

The interesting thing is the filing keeps referring to their holdings as "math-based assets."  I'm wondering if this leaves room for alt currencies.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1019
Watching this. Looks interesting.

Smoothie, wanna start a Litecoin ETP now?  Grin
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1491
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
Watching this. Looks interesting.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1080
Gerald Davis
And after all that people will not be buying an actual bitcoin (or possessing private keys) just a promise from Winklevi that they hold bitcoin in equal amounts somewhere to back their deposits ... what are the rules on taking delivery of btc? They probably couldn't do that without becoming a "money transmitter"

Issuance of new shares and redemption of existing shares is only in baskets of 50,000 shares (10,000 BTC).  The process outlined in the  S-1 is very similar to physical gold ETFs.  To be issued new shares (as opposed to buying shares on market) one needs to deliver 10,000 BTC to the trustee.  The trustee will then issue a new basket of 50,000 shares and transfer them to the depositor.  To redeem shares the same thing applies, one must have 50,000 shares and can then take delivery of 10,000 BTC.  

Like in other similar ETFs the overwhelming majority of investors will never make a deposit or redeem shares, and will just trade existing shares on the market.

As for MT regs.  There are various exemptions for MT regulations including registered broker dealers and deposit institutions.  I would imagine the fund would use an exempt entity or become an agent of an existing MT rather than try to become licensed as a MT in all jurisdictions.
legendary
Activity: 2128
Merit: 1031
If this is approved, anyone cares to predict when all this will come to market?

They'll want to as fast as they can without compromising their investment

It needs to be approved by regulators and then accepted by exchange underwriters.  The process moves at the speed of government with a healthy dose of beucracy and side order of legal teams.  We are talking a timeframe in months if not the better part of a year.  There isn't much they can do to make it go faster. 

Is there any money in trying to have another one?
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
What doesn't kill you only makes you sicker!
If ever there were news to drive price speculation, this surely is it.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
The increase in liquidity and legitimacy should be a boost ... but if it gets big it will become a centralised point for price ... with all the possibilities of manipulation and control that opens up.

And after all that people will not be buying an actual bitcoin (or possessing private keys) just a promise from Winklevi that they hold bitcoin in equal amounts somewhere to back their deposits ... what are the rules on taking delivery of btc? They probably couldn't do that without becoming a "money transmitter" ... what a thicket of laws and regulations surrounding some simple private keys ... lol, absurd when seen from a distance. Imagine if they did the same thing with PKI and GPG keys?
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1080
Gerald Davis
If this is approved, anyone cares to predict when all this will come to market?

They'll want to as fast as they can without compromising their investment

It needs to be approved by regulators and then accepted by exchange underwriters.  The process moves at the speed of government with a healthy dose of beucracy and side order of legal teams.  We are talking a timeframe in months if not the better part of a year.  There isn't much they can do to make it go faster. 
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1019
If this is approved, anyone cares to predict when all this will come to market?

They'll want to as fast as they can without compromising their investment
member
Activity: 64
Merit: 10
If this is approved, anyone cares to predict when all this will come to market?
sr. member
Activity: 408
Merit: 261
Thank you Winklevii, this is probably the biggest step to financial legitimacy in Bitcoin's brief lifetime.

A listed Bitcoin ETF was an "obvious" idea that someone had to put together sooner or later, but coming from them rather than a random "some guy" is priceless in free press and legitimacy.

If they manage to pull this off, I agree that the listed Bitcoin ETF liquidity could quickly dwarf all existing bitcoin exchanges and become the new standard for pricing.  In other words: a new era in trading bitcoins.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1080
Gerald Davis
It will also open up the ability to hedge using shorts against the ETF.

Take a company which needs working capital in BTC but doesn't want to be exposed to losses due to exchange rate decline.  The company could open a margin account and short the ETF while holding physical BTC thus being hedge out against the exchange rate.

A person with BTC in cold storage and a brokerage account with sufficient margin could quickly liquidate/trim a BTC position by using a short against the ETF very quickly without keeping BTC on exchange or having to wait for the transfer.

Lastly it would be possible to buy sell options against the ETF.  By selling "naked" calls against the ETF and holding physical BTC it would be possible to secure a call revenue stream at the expense of capped upside potential.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 501
Please bear with me
Doesn't this open up all of the existing trading tools and options without any new software or websites to trade on to every single trader out there?

Exactly, no need to reinvent the wheel. All the data feeds will carry BTC price, and all the trading software in the world will 'just work' with it. Trading lag no more, and no need to wire your money to shadow dealers in Russia, Slovenia or Japan. Pure bliss.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 100
'Once it is exchange-traded, this instrument will effectively become a primary market for BTC due to superior liquidity and current "BTC exchanges" will just take its price and follow it.'


This is my feeling on this news as well.  If approved and begins to work, its potential liquidity could be huge.  

Doesn't this open up all of the existing trading tools and options without any new software or websites to trade on to every single trader out there?

hero member
Activity: 1302
Merit: 502
what a pipedream

What exactly? It may be challenging to get the filing approved, but far from impossible. Once it is exchange-traded, this instrument will effectively become a primary market for BTC due to superior liquidity and current "BTC exchanges" will just take its price and follow it.

Moistcoin, brought to you by humanitee.  Cheesy

The more I read into it, the happier I become. Good luck, Winklefriends.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 501
Please bear with me
what a pipedream

What exactly? It may be challenging to get the filing approved, but far from impossible. Once it is exchange-traded, this instrument will effectively become a primary market for BTC due to superior liquidity and current "BTC exchanges" will just take its price and follow it.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1019
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
♫ A wave came crashing like a fist to the jaw ♫
If I'm reading the filing correctly, this is essentially an ETF with BTC as a base asset. So, if this gets approved and listed, everyone will be able to buy bitcoins in any amount through their favorite broker. Institutional investors into BTC, anyone?

Trust investors will be also able to convert this instrument into underlying BTC in 10K increments. Again, this gives a clean and easy access to BTC for institutional investors.

And for every additional 50K units the trust issues, it has to buy 10K BTC on the open market. Once this works, resulting demand for BTC will be absolutely unimaginable for anyone involved in BTC trading right now. 260 usd/btc bubble top? We haven't seen nothing yet, mark my words.

Agreed, this makes the trust a net buyer of bitcoin for as long as the trust is alive, $1000.00 here we come?Huh
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 501
Please bear with me
If I'm reading the filing correctly, this is essentially an ETF with BTC as a base asset. So, if this gets approved and listed, everyone will be able to buy bitcoins in any amount through their favorite broker. Institutional investors into BTC, anyone?

Trust investors will be also able to convert this instrument into underlying BTC in 10K increments. Again, this gives a clean and easy access to BTC for institutional investors.

And for every additional 50K units the trust issues, it has to buy 10K BTC on the open market. Once this works, resulting demand for BTC will be absolutely unimaginable for anyone involved in BTC trading right now. 260 usd/btc bubble top? We haven't seen nothing yet, mark my words.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
♫ A wave came crashing like a fist to the jaw ♫
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1019
Someone's bullish  Grin

Here’s one of the more interesting S-1 filings of the year.

In a filing with the SEC 5304.OK +1.25%, the Winklevoss Bitcoin Trust, headed by Cameron and Tyler Winklevoss, said it will sell around $20 million worth of shares, which will each represent a fraction of a single bitcoin, the digital currency the twins have invested in.

Bitcoin has become the best known virtual currencies since its release in 2009. The currency was created by a person or group known as Satoshi Nakamoto (whose true identity is unknown) and is primarily used by online merchants, though some mostly smaller brick-and-mortar retailers have recently begun to accept bitcoins for payment. People can “mine” bitcoins using complex algorithms that require intensive computing power, though they can also buy the currency on exchanges and through services like BitInstant and Coinbase. The total number of bitcoins that can be created is capped at 21 million, and currently more than 11 million have been mined, according to various websites. Bitcoin has attracted attention from companies like Western Union, MoneyGram and eBay’s Paypal, which have said they are evaluating whether it makes sense to allow their customers to use the currency on their platforms.

Here's the filing: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1579346/000119312513279830/d562329ds1.htm

And by the way, creating these paper markets is how they control the price of alternative commodity currencies like gold. Nobody bothers actually buying or selling the actual metal when they can just go to the paper market... which puts the paper market in control of the underlying commodity! And it's not like it's difficult to naked short a paper market to drive prices anywhere you want.
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