[2015-03-07] CCN: Asset Forfeiture as an Attack Against Bitcoin

okthen

hero member

Activity: 490

Merit: 500

Quote from: Evil Steve on March 10, 2015, 03:34:11 PM

I hope people realize that bitcoin isn't some magical way to avoid paying taxes. Hope they don't learn the hard way on that.

Well people can evade taxes just as much with fiat.
The big fish always find a nicer country to live in which allows them to pay much less.

Evil Steve

newbie

Activity: 25

Merit: 0

I hope people realize that bitcoin isn't some magical way to avoid paying taxes. Hope they don't learn the hard way on that.

Armis

hero member

Activity: 588

Merit: 501

The following occurred to an actual long standing member of the BCT community and is currently still active:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10676775

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10685410

Skinnyman

member

Activity: 61

Merit: 10

Quote from: ?? on ??

A perfect example of the government stealing from people. Why the hell is it called private property if they can come and take it from you?
Let's call things what they are, without euphemisms and lawyers jargon, seize and forfeit here both mean the same thing - steal.

Well because they believe it to be their property if you haven't paid what they think you owe them, such is the way of taxes. They'll get their paycheck one way or another.

hayek

sr. member

Activity: 370

Merit: 250

Quote from: Kprawn on March 10, 2015, 04:31:40 AM

I think the message is clear .... " Since the burden is on you proving your assets are lawful it makes it almost impossible to recover cash from the police. "

If I have $1000 in my pocket and people ask me where I got it, I would be in a position to tell them. { I have a job....., I have a business...., I sold a car.... }

So if they stop a person and they find $10 000 on him, and he cannot explain, where he got the money from.... it would be suspect to say the least. { Uhm.. officer, yes I am unemployed, but I have loads of cash.. I just cannot tell you where I got it}

When you walk on the right side of the law, the explanation is simple. Grin

This just isn't how it works.

If you are stopped with $10k cash in your car the cop will say "No reasonable person drives with $10k cash. You must be breaking the law. Prove you aren't breaking the law." Even with a bank receipt you cannot prove it and that still takes place in court after they seize it and you still have to pay to go through court to get it back.

Everything is illegal is the point.

1Referee

legendary

Activity: 2170

Merit: 1427

Quote from: justusranvier on March 09, 2015, 10:04:02 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

If you secure your coins properly, no one can access them without your permission. Bitcoin is very different from traditional assets (they just take it without your permission) in this regard.

Obviously an authority could threaten you with all kinds of stuff from imprisonment to torture in order to obtain your permission.

Bitcoin is a step in the right direction.

Actually, with the right precautions, you can secure your coins so well that that can't be extracted from you even via torture.

Here's an example of one way to do it:

Create an offline Armory wallet
Print an m-of-n paper backup of that wallet (including verifying, double-, and triple-checking that the wallet can be restored from the fragments!)
Securely erase the digital copy of the wallet (except for the watching-only copy)
Disperse the fragments among people you trust, ideally who live in diverse countries/continents
Put your longest-term savings in that wallet

If you don't have a widely-dispersed network of friends who you'd trust with your life (savings), this strategy won't work and you'll need to use a different one.

You know the saying friends are your worst enemy?

I would never trust anyone with my life savings, even not my family.

Money makes people do weird things, no matter if they are friends or family.

Best is to keep every detail regarding backup-security-access only for yourself.

Mudd

member

Activity: 78

Merit: 10

This is just legalized theft. Those items they stole will then be sold off themselves and the police keep the money.

Quote from: gjgjg on March 07, 2015, 12:33:05 PM

It would be a shame if the government decided to classify Bitcoin as illegal tender to take advantage of the asset forfeiture strategy, seize A ish load of coins just to have most of the assets then to turn it around and decide to legalize it just like they did Or do with gambling laws. Difference but jus saying hw the "law" can quickly change for whatever reason. That would be a *itch move on their part because they can easily operate their own mining farms and what not.

They probably wont make it illegal but if you try hide your finances in bitcoin they'll likely just confiscate your physical wealth instead.

Kprawn

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1074

I think the message is clear .... " Since the burden is on you proving your assets are lawful it makes it almost impossible to recover cash from the police. "

If I have $1000 in my pocket and people ask me where I got it, I would be in a position to tell them. { I have a job....., I have a business...., I sold a car.... }

So if they stop a person and they find $10 000 on him, and he cannot explain, where he got the money from.... it would be suspect to say the least. { Uhm.. officer, yes I am unemployed, but I have loads of cash.. I just cannot tell you where I got it}

When you walk on the right side of the law, the explanation is simple. Grin

justusranvier

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1013

Quote from: ?? on ??

If you secure your coins properly, no one can access them without your permission. Bitcoin is very different from traditional assets (they just take it without your permission) in this regard.

Obviously an authority could threaten you with all kinds of stuff from imprisonment to torture in order to obtain your permission.

Bitcoin is a step in the right direction.

Actually, with the right precautions, you can secure your coins so well that that can't be extracted from you even via torture.

Here's an example of one way to do it:

Create an offline Armory wallet
Print an m-of-n paper backup of that wallet (including verifying, double-, and triple-checking that the wallet can be restored from the fragments!)
Securely erase the digital copy of the wallet (except for the watching-only copy)
Disperse the fragments among people you trust, ideally who live in diverse countries/continents
Put your longest-term savings in that wallet

If you don't have a widely-dispersed network of friends who you'd trust with your life (savings), this strategy won't work and you'll need to use a different one.

ajareselde

legendary

Activity: 1722

Merit: 1000

Satoshi is rolling in his grave. #bitcoin

It seams that this is alot like civil forfeiture (if not -is the same?), and you should definetly watch this Jon Oliver show where he shows what that really is, shocking!
Anyways heres the link, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks , i am only surprised there are no people on the streets protesting about this,
they can practicaly take your house if they think you are doing something illegal there.
Land of the free..

cheers

gjgjg

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

It would be a shame if the government decided to classify Bitcoin as illegal tender to take advantage of the asset forfeiture strategy, seize A ish load of coins just to have most of the assets then to turn it around and decide to legalize it just like they did Or do with gambling laws. Difference but jus saying hw the "law" can quickly change for whatever reason. That would be a *itch move on their part because they can easily operate their own mining farms and what not.

hayek

sr. member

Activity: 370

Merit: 250

That’s the Asset Forfeiture Bitcoin attack – seize your enemies property and use it against them.

“If the Department is to continue to be effective, it must think strategically. The stakes are high. The national security and lives of Americans are at risk. The government cannot and will not fail in this important endeavor.”- United States Department of Justice Asset Forfeiture Program, Strategic Plan

Since the burden is on you proving your assets are lawful it makes it almost impossible to recover cash from the police. In Philadelphia, over 8,000 forfeiture cases were filed by the city against African American and Hispanic residents. The average take amounted to $550. In Washington D.C., victims of asset forfeitures may be charged up to $2,500 to challenge a police seizure in court.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/asset-forfeiture-next-attack-bitcoin

Topic: [2015-03-07] CCN: Asset Forfeiture as an Attack Against Bitcoin (Read 1890 times)