[2017-12-28] Bitcoin 'doesn't pass the smell test,' says Massachusetts regulator

greeklogos

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Quote from: Rahar02 on December 28, 2017, 06:19:23 AM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on December 28, 2017, 05:16:50 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on December 27, 2017, 11:12:21 PM

The truth is no one can classify what bitcoin really is.

Yes they can.

At least a few million people classify it as money.

I treat Bitcoin as money. Others don't. Not everyone accepts Euros either.

The problem is; they (or a man) classified bitcoin or cryptocurrency as speculation tool or subject to manipulation.
Whatever they said, it's not so important as most people consider bitcoin as an alternative currency, but currently being used as the speculative object of investment.
IRS has stated virtual currency as property for the US Federal tax itsoses, fortunately, they didn't ban it and people are free to use or trade it as long as they pay the taxes.
I consider bitcoin as money as well, but there is no any merchants accept bitcoin payment nearby to spend it.
So, I will just keep my bitcoin and use fiat currency as means of payment Cheesy

For how long will you be able to hold your coins? The next year is going to be a year of regulation and crypto taxation.
Bitcoin is actually the manipulation tool, but who cares?! It is bringing a real profit to those who can handle it and while it is so it will be in demand.

Wekkel

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yes

Quote from: Carlton Banks on December 30, 2017, 03:26:58 PM

Bitcoin is the beginning of the post-tax world, it's that simple. Bittorrent destroyed copyright (which was dying already), and Bitcoin will eventually destroy the concept of taxes altogether. This isn't such a great problem: we'll just have to pay for services directly instead of how it works now.

Essential wisdom. Governments better take heed.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 29, 2017, 05:37:31 PM

tax evasion is still tax evasion. regardless of how the IRS classifies it, there are surely taxable events taking place (merchant transactions, trading). exchanges and large payment processors like bitpay and coinbase are surely keeping extensive databases on us should the time come where their balls are squeezed into giving it up. the IRS coming after coinbase was the first taste.

i hear it, but when i see bills like SB 1241 (which would make it illegal to misrepresent your identity to virtually any business interfacing with BTC, which many of us presently do), i'm not sure how to feel. on one hand, the IRS is surely overstretched and behind on the learning curve with cryptocurrencies. on the other hand, i'm scared of how sophisticated the blockchain analysis companies are now. bitcoin's lack of privacy protocols doesn't help.

That sounds scary.

But the reality is less so. The IRS can't collect taxes from more than 50% of taxable transactions now. Once Bitcoin becomes more dominant in business, that figure will go down not up, the simple fact is that Bitcoin still makes the IRS's job so much harder.

Bitcoin is the beginning of the post-tax world, it's that simple. Bittorrent destroyed copyright (which was dying already), and Bitcoin will eventually destroy the concept of taxes altogether. This isn't such a great problem: we'll just have to pay for services directly instead of how it works now.

AK47-

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Money is anything we assign value to in hope that it will fetch us something else in return. And BTC easily fulfills this criteria. But since it's meteoric rise it is being used more as a 'digital asset' than a universally accepted currency. And this being the first statement on BTC from a state advisory, it isn't very good news for BTC's quest of wider acceptance.

J. Cooper

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on December 29, 2017, 09:34:18 AM

Quote from: J. Cooper on December 29, 2017, 08:58:41 AM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on December 28, 2017, 05:16:50 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on December 27, 2017, 11:12:21 PM

The truth is no one can classify what bitcoin really is.

Yes they can.

Of course they can. They can classify it whatever they want really, but that doesn't neccesarily imply they've got it right. For the majority of people bitcoin is a currency and if that's how they want to classify bitcoin then so be it.

You still don't understand

There is no "getting it right" when it comes to money.

Some ancient civilizations used salt as money
A small group of Pacific islanders once used small boulders as money
Caribbeans once used dolphins teeth as money
American natives in the north east once used crustacean shells as money

Money is a token of value. And there's no such thing as a real token of value, therefore anything can be used. There is no right and wrong, all that's needed is a minimum of 2 people agreeing on what the token is.

That's not what I'm saying. I agree that money and value is something fictional but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying it's wrong that people solely classifiy bitcoin as a currency. I'm not trying to say bitcoin's value is real or not. I'm just saying that it isn't really useful to do so. Of course it's useful in the context of regulating and what not but even then they will have to cut edges because it's impossible to accurately classify bitcoin.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on December 28, 2017, 08:03:03 AM

Quote from: Rahar02 on December 28, 2017, 06:19:23 AM

Whatever they said, it's not so important as most people consider bitcoin as an alternative currency, but currently being used as the speculative object of investment.
IRS has stated virtual currency as property for the US Federal tax itsoses

What the IRS or any other government agency do or say isn't relevant any more. If someone chooses not to cooperate with them, there's nothing any so-called authority can do.

tax evasion is still tax evasion. regardless of how the IRS classifies it, there are surely taxable events taking place (merchant transactions, trading). exchanges and large payment processors like bitpay and coinbase are surely keeping extensive databases on us should the time come where their balls are squeezed into giving it up. the IRS coming after coinbase was the first taste.

Quote from: Carlton Banks on December 29, 2017, 08:18:42 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on December 28, 2017, 08:24:41 PM

Why not make new laws and classify bitcoin as a new class of asset?

Shall we make a law that forces water to be wet? Those disobedient drops of H2O better get their act together, the law is coming for them!

i hear it, but when i see bills like SB 1241 (which would make it illegal to misrepresent your identity to virtually any business interfacing with BTC, which many of us presently do), i'm not sure how to feel. on one hand, the IRS is surely overstretched and behind on the learning curve with cryptocurrencies. on the other hand, i'm scared of how sophisticated the blockchain analysis companies are now. bitcoin's lack of privacy protocols doesn't help.

Wekkel

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yes

’there is no right and wrong’

Exactly. The rise of cryptocurrency and the existence of 1,000+ coins/tokens prove that humans easily adapt and agree to using a token for coordination of their actions. A ledger and method of transferring value.

Solely that fact and the fact that this power to coordinate actions is now free to initiate and use by any person on Earth, globally, is what frightens regulators to the bone.

‘But...but....’

Honey Badger is not listening and he ain’t going back in the hole.

Qartersa

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For me, I think these legislators should accept the fact that the present laws, rules and regulations are not at par with times. In fact, they have for most become obsolete. Hence, instead of outright banning the entrance of cryptocurrencies in the market, these legislators should enact or amend laws to address the going concerns that have something to do with cryptocurrencies. They have to look into both the civil and criminal aspect of the case so as to fully quantify and qualify what best suits and serves the public in general. It is high time to face the issue squarely, and not just avoid it by proclaiming total banning.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: J. Cooper on December 29, 2017, 08:58:41 AM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on December 28, 2017, 05:16:50 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on December 27, 2017, 11:12:21 PM

The truth is no one can classify what bitcoin really is.

Yes they can.

Of course they can. They can classify it whatever they want really, but that doesn't neccesarily imply they've got it right. For the majority of people bitcoin is a currency and if that's how they want to classify bitcoin then so be it.

You still don't understand

There is no "getting it right" when it comes to money.

Some ancient civilizations used salt as money
A small group of Pacific islanders once used small boulders as money
Caribbeans once used dolphins teeth as money
American natives in the north east once used crustacean shells as money

Money is a token of value. And there's no such thing as a real token of value, therefore anything can be used. There is no right and wrong, all that's needed is a minimum of 2 people agreeing on what the token is.

J. Cooper

full member

Activity: 294

Merit: 125

Alea iacta est

Quote from: Carlton Banks on December 28, 2017, 05:16:50 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on December 27, 2017, 11:12:21 PM

The truth is no one can classify what bitcoin really is.

Yes they can.

Of course they can. They can classify it whatever they want really, but that doesn't neccesarily imply they've got it right. For the majority of people bitcoin is a currency and if that's how they want to classify bitcoin then so be it.

Carlton Banks

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Activity: 3430

Merit: 3083

Quote from: bbc.reporter on December 28, 2017, 08:24:41 PM

Why not make new laws and classify bitcoin as a new class of asset?

Shall we make a law that forces water to be wet? Those disobedient drops of H2O better get their act together, the law is coming for them!

iamTom123

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Activity: 490

Merit: 501

Quote from: Carlton Banks on December 28, 2017, 05:16:50 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on December 27, 2017, 11:12:21 PM

The truth is no one can classify what bitcoin really is.

Yes they can. At least a few million people classify it as money. You're labouring under the misunderstanding that all questions have a single answer, and yet simultaneously accept that this is only one man's opinion. Bitcoin, like all money, is merely a token of value. That means that opinion matters a great deal when determining it's definition or acceptance, because the value is notional. Although people's opinions are, of course, subject to change. I treat Bitcoin as money. Others don't. Not everyone accepts Euros either.

Bitcoin can mean many things to different people. Others treat Bitcoin as money in digital form while others treat it as a store of value akin to the physical gold. Well, the beauty with Bitcoin is that it can be multi-faceted and not just limited to one's person idea or opinion. What those in the authority can be saying will not matter at all, in the first place, as these people will never fully grasp Bitcoin because from the very beginning they look at it with tainted eyes. Plus, we don't need that definition coming from the government side as they did not created this phenomenon in the first place...we should rather listen to what Satoshi Nakamoto had already said. One thing I noticed is that these days government officials have that thick-faced attitude to say anything outlandish on Bitcoin as if they have become suddenly the source of knowledge for cryptocurrency.

bbc.reporter

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on December 28, 2017, 05:16:50 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on December 27, 2017, 11:12:21 PM

The truth is no one can classify what bitcoin really is.

Yes they can.

At least a few million people classify it as money. You're labouring under the misunderstanding that all questions have a single answer, and yet simultaneously accept that this is only one man's opinion.

Bitcoin, like all money, is merely a token of value. That means that opinion matters a great deal when determining it's definition or acceptance, because the value is notional. Although people's opinions are, of course, subject to change.

I treat Bitcoin as money. Others don't. Not everyone accepts Euros either.

I was talking about bitcoin's classification under the present state of financial laws and regulations each country has today. As you mentioned, their opinions are subject to change, and they are only opinions after all. But how should a judge classify bitcoin if he were ready to make a sentence? Will his sentence depend on what his opinion of bitcoin is?

Why not make new laws and classify bitcoin as a new class of asset?

Carlton Banks

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Activity: 3430

Merit: 3083

Quote from: Rahar02 on December 28, 2017, 06:19:23 AM

Whatever they said, it's not so important as most people consider bitcoin as an alternative currency, but currently being used as the speculative object of investment.
IRS has stated virtual currency as property for the US Federal tax itsoses

What the IRS or any other government agency do or say isn't relevant any more. If someone chooses not to cooperate with them, there's nothing any so-called authority can do.

That's what's so incredible about Bitcoin, and hence why the deposed authorities (like these Massachussetts regulators for example) are trying so desperately to fight it:
the power that was taken from the people has been returned to the people. We are all monetary authorities now.

Rahar02

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on December 28, 2017, 05:16:50 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on December 27, 2017, 11:12:21 PM

The truth is no one can classify what bitcoin really is.

Yes they can.

At least a few million people classify it as money.

I treat Bitcoin as money. Others don't. Not everyone accepts Euros either.

The problem is; they (or a man) classified bitcoin or cryptocurrency as speculation tool or subject to manipulation.
Whatever they said, it's not so important as most people consider bitcoin as an alternative currency, but currently being used as the speculative object of investment.
IRS has stated virtual currency as property for the US Federal tax itsoses, fortunately, they didn't ban it and people are free to use or trade it as long as they pay the taxes.
I consider bitcoin as money as well, but there is no any merchants accept bitcoin payment nearby to spend it.
So, I will just keep my bitcoin and use fiat currency as means of payment Cheesy

Carlton Banks

legendary

Activity: 3430

Merit: 3083

Quote from: bbc.reporter on December 27, 2017, 11:12:21 PM

The truth is no one can classify what bitcoin really is.

Yes they can.

At least a few million people classify it as money. You're labouring under the misunderstanding that all questions have a single answer, and yet simultaneously accept that this is only one man's opinion.

Bitcoin, like all money, is merely a token of value. That means that opinion matters a great deal when determining it's definition or acceptance, because the value is notional. Although people's opinions are, of course, subject to change.

I treat Bitcoin as money. Others don't. Not everyone accepts Euros either.

bbc.reporter

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I reckon this is only the Massachusetts' top securities regulator's opinion. When he said that he is not working with other regulators, it is a giveaway that his statement is from his own personal view.

The truth is no one can classify what bitcoin really is. Maybe it is time to smell the coffee and accept that the regulations and laws should start catching up with decentralized financial technologies like bitcoin and altcoins. They cannot stop its development, whatever they do.

On Dec. 13, Galvin issued a statement listing seven reasons why bitcoin may be a "worthless product." The document is likely the first investor advisory on bitcoin from a state.

Federal regulators have also stepped up their warnings on cryptocurrencies and related investments this month.

We "don't always agree, but we all seem to agree that this is a problem," Galvin said. He said he is not working with other regulators at this time.

Read the article in full https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/27/bitcoin-doesnt-pass-the-smell-test-says-massachusetts-securities-regulator.html

Topic: [2017-12-28] Bitcoin 'doesn't pass the smell test,' says Massachusetts regulator (Read 206 times)