[2018-05-27] 331 High-Income Traders Declared Crypto Profits in Japan

BitHodler

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on May 28, 2018, 07:09:40 AM

I agree with all of that, except "They will make you pay what's due in every possible way". If you keep your crypto in your own custody as much as you can, there's literally nothing any government can do to ~~steal~~collect.

It's not crypto related, but there have been cases where the authorities terrorized people by cutting them off from every possible service that requires an initial background check.

It means no bank accounts can be opened, no loans, no house that you can rent, nothing. And everything of value that you have gets seized and auctioned off. That's quite shocking actually.

To make it even worse, jail time is a potential outcome as well. How far are you willing to go in these cases? Most people will admit defeat and then still do what the tax department wants them to do.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: 1Referee on May 28, 2018, 04:55:01 AM

Quote from: BitHodler on May 27, 2018, 06:25:17 PM

I wonder if there will ever be a point where they rework their crypto tax rates. If you can't tempt to make people declare their profits at current rates, you have to lower them in order to take away the main obstacle.

It's not very likely. The thing with governments lowering tax rates is that they aren't actually being lowered. If they lower the highest tax bracket from 55% to 40% (which is still crazy high), they will make sure that the tax rates elsewhere will be increased to make up for it. In the end it's still the people paying for it, but just through an alternative way.

It's not as simple as that.

Charging more than 50% tax on any taxable event drives up the non-compliance rate. What rate of compliance do you think governments get if they charge 101% tax rates? (clue: it's not 101%)

Quote from: 1Referee on May 28, 2018, 04:55:01 AM

You just have to ask yourself whether or not it's worth paying such insane rates. What did the government do for you that they 'deserve' a 55% cut of your profits? They haven't done shit. They are only making life difficult for you and they are being rewarded for it to keep doing so for plenty of more years. Tax evasion happens for a reason, governments know that but they don't care. They will make you pay what's due in every possible way.

I agree with all of that, except "They will make you pay what's due in every possible way". If you keep your crypto in your own custody as much as you can, there's literally nothing any government can do to ~~steal~~collect.

This puts everyone on the same level as the government cronies, who don't pay any taxes at all.

Harlot

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With that kind of potential tax rate difference I think that those high income traders would be less by that time (fake their income report), with a 40% difference from the other level I think that a lot of traders will simply fake their reports due to trading but I doubt they can do it as even their exchanges are highly moderated by the government. The Japanese government needs to make the tax adjustment more appealing to them, simply adding more tax brackets with little differences is the way to go in this kind of situation.

gentlemand

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Quote from: BitHodler on May 27, 2018, 06:25:17 PM

I wonder if there will ever be a point where they rework their crypto tax rates. If you can't tempt to make people declare their profits at current rates, you have to lower them in order to take away the main obstacle.

A few countries have changed how they tax crypto such as Australia, but it wasn't a lowering of a specific rate rather it was a reclassification. They tried to glue VAT on it and that was never going to work.

It looks like this is in line with their other tax rates so the odds of them singling out crypto for a reduction are nil.

1Referee

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Quote from: BitHodler on May 27, 2018, 06:25:17 PM

I wonder if there will ever be a point where they rework their crypto tax rates. If you can't tempt to make people declare their profits at current rates, you have to lower them in order to take away the main obstacle.

It's not very likely. The thing with governments lowering tax rates is that they aren't actually being lowered. If they lower the highest tax bracket from 55% to 40% (which is still crazy high), they will make sure that the tax rates elsewhere will be increased to make up for it. In the end it's still the people paying for it, but just through an alternative way. Governments have to keep up their reputation of being a tax biatch.

You just have to ask yourself whether or not it's worth paying such insane rates. What did the government do for you that they 'deserve' a 55% cut of your profits? They haven't done shit. They are only making life difficult for you and they are being rewarded for it to keep doing so for plenty of more years. Tax evasion happens for a reason, governments know that but they don't care. They will make you pay what's due in every possible way.

BitHodler

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Current figures are meaningless since they represent last year only. I expect a very strong increase in tax declarations from the so called high income traders over the current year.

With how tax regulations can't really be avoided and ignored anymore, I would aim to see at least 5000 traders declare their profits. Anything below that would be quite a disappointment with how popular Bitcoin there is.

I wonder if there will ever be a point where they rework their crypto tax rates. If you can't tempt to make people declare their profits at current rates, you have to lower them in order to take away the main obstacle.

gentlemand

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Quote from: aso118 on May 27, 2018, 05:17:11 PM

The percentage of people with cryptocurrency income amongst those with high levels of miscellaneous income, seems to be rather high. If 60% have some crypto income, it means that cryptocurrency investments are a way of life.

It's 331 people. Not a great deal out of 120 million. I would guess that miscellaneous income is a very obscure classification, or more likely the ever diligent crypto press has totally gotten the wrong end of the stick.

aso118

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The percentage of people with cryptocurrency income amongst those with high levels of miscellaneous income, seems to be rather high. If 60% have some crypto income, it means that cryptocurrency investments are a way of life.

milewilda

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Based on the article:

There are seven tax brackets based on taxable income. Those earning 1.95 million yen (~$17,823) or less are taxed at 5 percent, the news outlet described, adding that the highest tax rate is 45 percent for taxpayers who earn more than 40 million yen (~$365,600). However, the publication pointed out that “your income is also subject to a residential tax of 10 percent. Together, the maximum tax rate is 55 percent.”

5% is considerable but when we do talk already with 45%-55%. Where in the world they do get this basis when it comes to tax implementations when it comes to crypto-trading.This is too much!

richardsNY

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Quote from: gentlemand on May 27, 2018, 03:06:14 PM

Bizarre that the Japanese would go to all the effort involved to fully legitimise crypto and then slap 55 goddamn per cent tax on it. If ever there was a disincentive to have a play it's that. Income tax only goes up to 45% so I don't know what they're up to.

Everything has a price. If tax income wasn't their main incentive to allow this industry to develop, then what is? Governments can choose to prohibit crypto and then push usage to the underground, or they can legalize it, maintain control, and get a thick fat paycheck as result. 55% admittedly is hardcore, but what else is there for you to do? You can choose not to trade and thus don't pay tax (which means you make no profits), or choose to trade and pay tax according to the category you fit in. Considering that the volumes in Japan keep increasing, it's more the outside world being shocked about this than Japanese traders themselves. I don't know how things work in Japan in this regard, but I can spend my profits and legally not pay tax. It would be a massive economical stimulator if people there end up buying real estate instead of cashing out profits to fiat.

gentlemand

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Bizarre that the Japanese would go to all the effort involved to fully legitimise crypto and then slap 55 goddamn per cent tax on it. If ever there was a disincentive to have a play it's that. Income tax only goes up to 45% so I don't know what they're up to.

sncc

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The Japanese tax authority has for the first time revealed the number of high-income taxpayers who declared cryptocurrency profits in the year 2017. Out of the total number of taxpayers with miscellaneous income of 100 million yen or more, excluding public pension, 60% of them reported income from crypto transactions.

Source: https://news.bitcoin.com/331-high-income-traders-declared-crypto-profits-japan/

Topic: [2018-05-27] 331 High-Income Traders Declared Crypto Profits in Japan (Read 130 times)