Topic: [2018-08-15] Is Bitcoin A “Cult”? A Former Paypal CEO Seems To Think So (Read 471 times)
August 23, 2018, 03:17:40 AM
You won't really expect good comments/opinions coming out from the mouths of the knows competitors of cryptpcurrencies. It is like expecting a Democrat politician praising a Republican counterpart or vice versa, it would simply be bad for his image even though he is not the CEO anymore. To take it simply his words mean nothing to us because we know it is a biased comment coming from a former CEO of a payment solution, even if you try to understand it for people who has even a little knowledge about BTC they will know he knows little about it.
August 23, 2018, 01:59:40 AM
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If people use the Visa or MasterCard option it could go up to even 4% which is insane.
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If people use the Visa or MasterCard option it could go up to even 4% which is insane.
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The market power of Visa and MasterCard is simply too big. More and more people
are using credit cards and therefore you are basically forced to accept their credit cards
as a merchant even if you think their fees are usurious. In my country 4 out of the big 5
supermarket chains have been accepting Visa and MasterCard payments for years while
one chain refused to accept credit cards at all.
Even this chain was recently forced to change their policy and nowadays they also
accept Visa and MasterCard. And obviously this raises the price for the products, because
it is definitely not the merchant, who is getting hit by the fees in the end.
August 22, 2018, 04:51:56 PM
I´d bet that a huge percentage of the Paypal users even believe that the Paypal service
is completely free.
It's a psychological matter in the end. If people keep buying stuff without realizing that fees in most cases are priced in, they will not bother to care about anything else. It's with everything requiring use of central parties.is completely free.
When I use my NFC enabled debit card to near instantly pay for stuff, the fees are on the store's end but are again calculated in the items I'm buying. In other words, I'm still paying for the fees.
I did some research about the payment gateway local brick and mortar stores use, and there is a 2% fee for every debit card transaction. If people use the Visa or MasterCard option it could go up to even 4% which is insane.
Based on that I assume that every item is 4% overpriced just to cover the fees. If I use a payment option only costing stores 2% in fees it means they are gaining on me.
The problem is we, as consumers, are incentivized not to care. I know that credit card usage drives prices up, but those costs are socialized and therefore outside of my control. It's not in my interest to save merchants money, and the fact that other people use debit/credit cards already raises my prices. It's not like we get to pay a lower price with cash.
In fact, I can get 1.5-5% cash back by using my credit cards. So, the cycle continues....
It reminds me of all these "no-fee" crypto trading apps coming out like Robinhood, etc. There are definitely fees -- they're just taken from the order book spread (giving you a worse price) instead of being itemized as a trading commission.
August 22, 2018, 04:30:58 PM
I´d bet that a huge percentage of the Paypal users even believe that the Paypal service
is completely free.
It's a psychological matter in the end. If people keep buying stuff without realizing that fees in most cases are priced in, they will not bother to care about anything else. It's with everything requiring use of central parties.is completely free.
When I use my NFC enabled debit card to near instantly pay for stuff, the fees are on the store's end but are again calculated in the items I'm buying. In other words, I'm still paying for the fees.
I did some research about the payment gateway local brick and mortar stores use, and there is a 2% fee for every debit card transaction. If people use the Visa or MasterCard option it could go up to even 4% which is insane.
Based on that I assume that every item is 4% overpriced just to cover the fees. If I use a payment option only costing stores 2% in fees it means they are gaining on me.
August 22, 2018, 04:10:41 PM
If they treat us a cult then what do they call to these who defends fiat and gold so much from it?
for better or worse, gold bugs are seen as a crazy cult too. here's one example: https://www.etf.com/sections/index-investor-corner/swedroe-12-gold-bug-commandments?nopaging=1
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Recently, I wrote about the predictions of one market “guru,” Peter Schiff, who might be described as a leader of the cult of gold bugs.
gold bugs are often painted as fringe dwelling lunatics, probably because they've been preaching about the collapse of fiat money long before bitcoiners came along. as with bitcoiners, fiat money proponents are incentivized to marginalize them.
August 20, 2018, 09:47:18 PM
If they treat us a cult then what do they call to these who defends fiat and gold so much from it? Bitcoin is not a cult but a technology that is so powerful that financial intitutions are scared to be removed because of the new system.
August 20, 2018, 11:32:36 AM
It makes sense for PayPal to be threatened by Bitcoin because it has the potential to kill their business, and when people are threatened they'll lash out.
PayPal pretty much started with the Bitcoin ideology of low regulated accounts, but it could be hammered into becoming an establishment player. Decentralisation takes away the power of the government to do that. I would take the cult status comment as a compliment.
Yes anytime something is centralized we can expect it to follow the same path as PayPal, of eventually becoming like the rest of the establishment. But he clearly meant the cult status comment as a dig on the people who believe in Bitcoin, he's just trying to deter usage of Bitcoin by saying that Bitcoin users are crazy.
August 20, 2018, 10:38:51 AM
there is nothing wrong with worshipping crypto 
if there is a pastafarian church ,why can't there be a bitcoin church?
oh wait there is one already,haha https://churchofbitcoin.org/
or even more than one: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Church
if there is a pastafarian church ,why can't there be a bitcoin church?
oh wait there is one already,haha https://churchofbitcoin.org/
or even more than one: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Church
August 20, 2018, 07:28:33 AM
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Not a good argument. Bitcoin's astronomical growth comes from the fact that it has grown from nothing to something. PayPal is an already established business and for that reason can't book similar growth rates.
Paypal was founded in 1998, So what stopped it to gain the "astronomical growth" bitcoin has experienced? wasn't Paypal a revolution back then?
Quote
Again not a good argument. Bitcoin's net dollar transaction volume is largely coming from its speculative nature, while PayPal's volumes are nearly for 100% economical transactions used to either buy or sell goods or services.
Not bitcoin's fault. One could argue What stopped these "speculators" from investing in this "revolutionary" product?
August 19, 2018, 03:29:07 PM
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I actually expected a decline a year or two ago, but they keep growing and growing, which for them as business is a healthy way to move forward. The question is how long will they be able to keep it up.
I actually expected a decline a year or two ago, but they keep growing and growing, which for them as business is a healthy way to move forward. The question is how long will they be able to keep it up.
I guess that Paypal is simply capitalizing on the increase in online shopping in general.
More and more people order stuff online instead of buying in Brick and mortar stores
and Paypal is often one of the most convenient payment options.
Indeed. I also think it's partly because consumers are becoming more aware of fraud risk. By linking their credit cards to Paypal, they can avoid exposing their credit card numbers to online retailers. In fact, I've had a couple card issuers recommend doing just that.
Also, I think they've expanded their credit issuing business -- which is probably significant in a time when consumer spending is up. I see more and more merchants offering Paypal Credit (previously Bill Me Later), and they drastically increased my limits over the past year or two even though I hardly use them.
August 19, 2018, 03:11:43 PM
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I actually expected a decline a year or two ago, but they keep growing and growing, which for them as business is a healthy way to move forward. The question is how long will they be able to keep it up.
I actually expected a decline a year or two ago, but they keep growing and growing, which for them as business is a healthy way to move forward. The question is how long will they be able to keep it up.
I guess that Paypal is simply capitalizing on the increase in online shopping in general.
More and more people order stuff online instead of buying in Brick and mortar stores
and Paypal is often one of the most convenient payment options.
Besides, most end users are not even aware how big the Paypal fees actually are, because
the merchant has to pay the fee. Obviously in the end the consumers pay the fee indirectly.
I´d bet that a huge percentage of the Paypal users even believe that the Paypal service
is completely free.
August 19, 2018, 02:00:45 PM
This "growth" is nothing compared to "growth" bitcoin has seen.
Not a good argument. Bitcoin's astronomical growth comes from the fact that it has grown from nothing to something. PayPal is an already established business and for that reason can't book similar growth rates.Compare the amount of volume transacted on the bitcoin network to Paypal's you will have your answer of who did the "real growth" here 
.
Again not a good argument. Bitcoin's net dollar transaction volume is largely coming from its speculative nature, while PayPal's volumes are nearly for 100% economical transactions used to either buy or sell goods or services. . Bitcoin is already killing them.
I still haven't seen you explain how Bitcoin is already killing them. August 19, 2018, 10:16:37 AM
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I think I have to correct you here.
No, let me correct you here again
This "growth" is nothing compared to "growth" bitcoin has seen. Compare the amount of volume transacted on the bitcoin network to Paypal's you will have your answer of who did the "real growth" here . Do Keep in mind The economies are growing, Paypal's revenue is expected to rise but notice how the "Growth" has slowed down? August 19, 2018, 09:02:55 AM
Please allow me to correct you there. Bitcoin is already is killing them.
I think I have to correct you here. PayPal's volumes have only increased throughout the last couple of years, and that to me doesn't seem like they are losing their dominant position as financial institution.See for yourself how PayPal's volumes have been growing.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/277841/paypals-total-payment-volume/
Despite all the complaints from people that PayPal is allowing scammers to charge back on innocent people and merchants, and that the fees are too high (which they are), it's still one of the more popular services.
I actually expected a decline a year or two ago, but they keep growing and growing, which for them as business is a healthy way to move forward. The question is how long will they be able to keep it up.
August 19, 2018, 06:36:34 AM
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It makes sense for PayPal to be threatened by Bitcoin because it has the potential to kill their business,
Please allow me to correct you there. Bitcoin is already killing them. I have been Paypal-free for the last 2 years. I have never felt the need to use my PayPal. I have bought domains/hostings with BTCs. Have bought advertisements on facebook via my BTC Visa card. Done Online shopping and was never forced to use my Paypal. I usually get triggered by statements like these which imply that "BTC only has the potential". BTC is already killing many businesses. I used to use Payza back in the day, Now I don't even remember the Email I used to register there. I don't care if you call me a member of a cult or a devil worshipper but I would gladly pay a 5% fee to a Raj in India to mine my transaction over a 2.5% fee to a "Rich" corporation to process my payment. As I believe Bitcoin is and will be a tool for redistributing wealth from these "Elites" to the masses.
August 19, 2018, 04:37:57 AM
So, if someone likes Cristiano Ronaldo and he believes that Juventus will win the Champions Leagues this year because Cristiano Ronaldo is there, would it be considered as a cult? Like really? Then explain why the USD is not a cult. I just do not get it. Why you just do not leave bitcoin alone. These people keep on spreading negative and false things about bitcoin as if they are to cease to exist if bitcoin is still alive. And they are driving people to their madness. I really hope they stop this already.
August 19, 2018, 04:20:18 AM
It makes sense for PayPal to be threatened by Bitcoin because it has the potential to kill their business, and when people are threatened they'll lash out.
PayPal pretty much started with the Bitcoin ideology of low regulated accounts, but it could be hammered into becoming an establishment player. Decentralisation takes away the power of the government to do that. I would take the cult status comment as a compliment.
August 19, 2018, 02:36:41 AM
Gold bugs are the oldest cult on the planet. Bitcoin could become next, but just depends how open and inclusive it is to any mostly controversial oriented newbies and industries.
August 17, 2018, 10:50:55 AM
Our fellow bitcoiners, especially newbies, need to spend less time watching and discussing the price and learn more about the technology instead.
Yeah this is exactly it. I wish it wasn't always "price is up! price is down! HODL! Moon! Lambo!" and people would actually take a step back and look at the technology that's behind it all and its original intention of being used as a digital currency, but even on this forum you can't get away from the hype stuff.
August 17, 2018, 10:34:08 AM
Fine, I'm a member of the cult of Bitcoin. It doesn't sound that bad, or maybe I'm so brainwashed that I can no longer see it?
This guy is a former CEO for a reason. Calling a competing financial instrument worthless doesn't do wonders for PR, right?
So true. We have the cult of money that so many people take part in, does that make them care in any way? Tell a rich man that he's a cultist and see if he cares.
This guy is a former CEO for a reason. Calling a competing financial instrument worthless doesn't do wonders for PR, right?
"Cult" is just a perjorative way of labelling a culture (it's essentially the same word). Typically, anything labeled a cult has obviously unhealthy social/systemic dynamics to those observing from the outside.
Satoshi made that same observation, but about the culture of mainstream banking and finance. Time will tell how accurate these mutually biased observations are, but it's very tempting to state here and now: Bitcoin has been a gradually improving success since it's existed, while the mainstream financial system has at best been treading water.
Satoshi made that same observation, but about the culture of mainstream banking and finance. Time will tell how accurate these mutually biased observations are, but it's very tempting to state here and now: Bitcoin has been a gradually improving success since it's existed, while the mainstream financial system has at best been treading water.
So true. We have the cult of money that so many people take part in, does that make them care in any way? Tell a rich man that he's a cultist and see if he cares.
August 17, 2018, 09:27:20 AM
It's not a cult, it just has a lot of believers behind it who can see its divine potential. Wait, that does sound like a cult .
I think the trouble with bitcoin is it just attracts both the crazy and desperate. The people who never shut up about it are usually those that have got significant money invested in it so it's in their best interests to scream it from the rooftops with a passion.
.I think the trouble with bitcoin is it just attracts both the crazy and desperate. The people who never shut up about it are usually those that have got significant money invested in it so it's in their best interests to scream it from the rooftops with a passion.
We have way too many people in our community who honestly believe that one day Bitcoin will replace banks and fiat. To me such optimism always sounded unhealthy, unrealistic expectations lead to a painful disappointment. It's better to have a realistic view of Bitcoin as an alternative money for people who value freedom and privacy over convenience and perceivable safety. Our fellow bitcoiners, especially newbies, need to spend less time watching and discussing the price and learn more about the technology instead.
August 17, 2018, 05:17:09 AM
"Cult" is just a perjorative way of labelling a culture (it's essentially the same word). Typically, anything labeled a cult has obviously unhealthy social/systemic dynamics to those observing from the outside.
Satoshi made that same observation, but about the culture of mainstream banking and finance. Time will tell how accurate these mutually biased observations are, but it's very tempting to state here and now: Bitcoin has been a gradually improving success since it's existed, while the mainstream financial system has at best been treading water.
Satoshi made that same observation, but about the culture of mainstream banking and finance. Time will tell how accurate these mutually biased observations are, but it's very tempting to state here and now: Bitcoin has been a gradually improving success since it's existed, while the mainstream financial system has at best been treading water.
August 16, 2018, 12:41:16 PM
It's not a cult, it just has a lot of believers behind it who can see its divine potential. Wait, that does sound like a cult .
I think the trouble with bitcoin is it just attracts both the crazy and desperate. The people who never shut up about it are usually those that have got significant money invested in it so it's in their best interests to scream it from the rooftops with a passion.
.I think the trouble with bitcoin is it just attracts both the crazy and desperate. The people who never shut up about it are usually those that have got significant money invested in it so it's in their best interests to scream it from the rooftops with a passion.
It’s definitely not a cult in any conventional sense, but plenty of vocal proponents come off sort of cultish with their intensity and fandom.
Bitcoin is great, and it works. I’ve been a user and proponent for several years. But I don’t shout it from the rooftops, because of the image. It’s definitely getting more mainstream now, though.
It's obviously not literally a cult, but it has a devout cult-like following who believe in it at all costs, much like a cult. Some people ignore facts or are fueled by their own desire to see it succeed with a passion so strong which can put a lot of others off I think.
August 16, 2018, 10:31:34 AM
Dude I just gave an example here in my post on how free transactions still work, I didn't even say that people are praising that BTC has free transfers. Network fee free transactions are still a thing on some 3rd party wallets and there is no minimum/maximum required the only requirement is you have to be using the same wallet as the recipient, transactions happen off-chain which means you won't see the transfer happening in the blockchain website. This free service is useful for everyone and it does not need to be praised by all of us in order to get notice.
Harris referred to on-chain transaction fees, and not shitty centralized services allowing people transact with each other instantly and for free. You bring up a point that's completely irrelevant to what Harris was talking about.It's not Bitcoin you're transacting with through centralized services, but worthless numbers somewhere in their database. The only thing happening is that balances change and that's it.
If we all start transacting through centralized services we can just as easily stop using crypto as payment form and use fiat based services, because there is no difference. We need to move away from centralization, not stimulate it.
August 16, 2018, 09:25:58 AM
It's not a cult, it just has a lot of believers behind it who can see its divine potential. Wait, that does sound like a cult .
I think the trouble with bitcoin is it just attracts both the crazy and desperate. The people who never shut up about it are usually those that have got significant money invested in it so it's in their best interests to scream it from the rooftops with a passion.
.I think the trouble with bitcoin is it just attracts both the crazy and desperate. The people who never shut up about it are usually those that have got significant money invested in it so it's in their best interests to scream it from the rooftops with a passion.
It’s definitely not a cult in any conventional sense, but plenty of vocal proponents come off sort of cultish with their intensity and fandom.
Bitcoin is great, and it works. I’ve been a user and proponent for several years. But I don’t shout it from the rooftops, because of the image. It’s definitely getting more mainstream now, though.
It's obviously not literally a cult, but it has a devout cult-like following who believe in it at all costs, much like a cult. Some people ignore facts or are fueled by their own desire to see it succeed with a passion so strong which can put a lot of others off I think.
August 16, 2018, 07:47:56 AM
~snip~
Are you living under a rock? No one in the last 2 years has praised Bitcoin for its low or near free transactions. Free transactions were a thing back in 2011/2012/2013 but it's over. Harris is an idiot.
August 15, 2018, 09:06:37 PM
@everyone. Bill Harris is no one in the cryptospace and in the internet payments industry. He is also known be the person who quit Paypal 2 months later after the merger with an online bank because he did not see a bright future ahead of internet payments.
He knows nothing.
He knows nothing.
August 15, 2018, 05:48:35 PM
From the belief that Satoshi is Craig Wright, to some considering that Bitcoin is going zero, this nascent industry has had its fair share of unpopular and contrasting opinions. A former Paypal CEO’s appearance on CNBC has only cemented this theme, with this legacy market proponent likening crypto to a cult.
Full article on NewBTC
Full article on NewBTC
Sigh... Does he even know what a cult is?
I'd like him to demonstrate in what way is bitcoin anything remotely close to religious. There are no deities that are worshiped, no system of merit based on your actions, or anything of that sort. All there is is a group of people who know the dangers and downfalls of fiat currencies, and want an alternative way of transacting.
If he's saying that bitcoin, as a payment network, is a cult, then perhaps so is Paypal.
It's completely absurd. Again though, since Paypal's problems have been increasingly exposed in recent years, and bitcoin has drastically been taking over paypal's customers, it's no surprise that the former CEOs of a centralized payment processor is saying this to bitcoin.
They'll say anything to put down Bitcoin because they know it will disrupt their profit margins. PayPal has a lot to lose with Bitcoin's success.
August 15, 2018, 05:18:57 PM
It's not a cult, it just has a lot of believers behind it who can see its divine potential. Wait, that does sound like a cult .
I think the trouble with bitcoin is it just attracts both the crazy and desperate. The people who never shut up about it are usually those that have got significant money invested in it so it's in their best interests to scream it from the rooftops with a passion.
.I think the trouble with bitcoin is it just attracts both the crazy and desperate. The people who never shut up about it are usually those that have got significant money invested in it so it's in their best interests to scream it from the rooftops with a passion.
It’s definitely not a cult in any conventional sense, but plenty of vocal proponents come off sort of cultish with their intensity and fandom.
Bitcoin is great, and it works. I’ve been a user and proponent for several years. But I don’t shout it from the rooftops, because of the image. It’s definitely getting more mainstream now, though.
August 15, 2018, 04:54:20 PM
The harder these parasites supported by the legacy industries trash talk Bitcoin, the more they fear for their position. It's admittedly scary to see decentralized networks take over and eat up their market share.
They are trying to protect what's left of their elitist empire before crypto finds out a way to properly scale without compromising on its decentralized nature. It's going to happen eventually, the only question is when.
They are trying to protect what's left of their elitist empire before crypto finds out a way to properly scale without compromising on its decentralized nature. It's going to happen eventually, the only question is when.
The only thing I can say that Harris is correct is when he said that BTC transactions are not "free" as we have to pay network fees but even that is debatable as some wallet providers provide free transfers when you are sending to the same wallet user (e.g. Coinbase to Coinbase transfers don't have network fees which means you are basically sending money for free)
Are you living under a rock? No one in the last 2 years has praised Bitcoin for its low or near free transactions. Free transactions were a thing back in 2011/2012/2013 but it's over. Harris is an idiot. August 15, 2018, 04:44:09 PM
From the belief that Satoshi is Craig Wright, to some considering that Bitcoin is going zero, this nascent industry has had its fair share of unpopular and contrasting opinions. A former Paypal CEO’s appearance on CNBC has only cemented this theme, with this legacy market proponent likening crypto to a cult.
Full article on NewBTC
Full article on NewBTC
Sigh... Does he even know what a cult is?
I'd like him to demonstrate in what way is bitcoin anything remotely close to religious. There are no deities that are worshiped, no system of merit based on your actions, or anything of that sort. All there is is a group of people who know the dangers and downfalls of fiat currencies, and want an alternative way of transacting.
If he's saying that bitcoin, as a payment network, is a cult, then perhaps so is Paypal.
It's completely absurd. Again though, since Paypal's problems have been increasingly exposed in recent years, and bitcoin has drastically been taking over paypal's customers, it's no surprise that the former CEOs of a centralized payment processor is saying this to bitcoin.
August 15, 2018, 03:35:21 PM
Quoted from the article provided :
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“The ‘cult’ of Bitcoin make many claims — that it’s instant, free, scalable, efficient, secure, globally accepted and useful. It is none of those things.”
Good thing that the article itself have debated Harris from his beliefs as like what the article said he clearly didn't do his research right. We all know what this rival industries will say to a threat and obviously you won't hear a fair opinion about it. The only thing I can say that Harris is correct is when he said that BTC transactions are not "free" as we have to pay network fees but even that is debatable as some wallet providers provide free transfers when you are sending to the same wallet user (e.g. Coinbase to Coinbase transfers don't have network fees which means you are basically sending money for free) August 15, 2018, 02:39:16 PM
The people who never shut up about it are usually those that have got significant money invested in it so it's in their best interests to scream it from the rooftops with a passion.
That definitely applies to Tim Draper. In a way we all have an incentive to hype Bitcoin up the best we can, but I do feel how passioned Tim Draper is. Bitcoin is the only ever option for people to obtain financial freedom in the most convenient way. It's in our best interest to make sure we do everything we can to have Bitcoin succeed, because if it doesn't, we're back to square one, which is that we are yet again an easy to exploit slave of the system.
For the first ever time we can store a large part of our wealth (which I actually have) in Bitcoin to hedge haircuts (the Cyprus haircut is still an open wound) and failing fiat currencies. I feel sorry for people in Turkey with how much their currency lost value in such a short period of time. This is a good but expensive lesson for people is to lower their fiat exposure and jump into Bitcoin, which they seem to be doing in a mild way.
August 15, 2018, 02:37:27 PM
The people who never shut up about it are usually those that have got significant money invested in it so it's in their best interests to scream it from the rooftops with a passion.
Yeah it's mostly people that got in after it was over $15k and are desperate to recoup their losses so they want to pump it up as much as possible every chance they get.
August 15, 2018, 02:33:34 PM
Yes. There's something very cultish about it. Someone compared crypto obsessives to vegans which does add up. That same piousness and sense that they've realised something everyone else has not yet.
However you want to look at it, it's not a coldly logical thing to throw money into at present. Everyone's betting on a future that may not arrive. Most have barely acknowledged any possibility of failure.
But everything needs that obsessiveness and passion for it to eventually leave cult status behind and be embraced by everyone else.
However you want to look at it, it's not a coldly logical thing to throw money into at present. Everyone's betting on a future that may not arrive. Most have barely acknowledged any possibility of failure.
But everything needs that obsessiveness and passion for it to eventually leave cult status behind and be embraced by everyone else.
August 15, 2018, 01:01:40 PM
It's not a cult, it just has a lot of believers behind it who can see its divine potential. Wait, that does sound like a cult .
I think the trouble with bitcoin is it just attracts both the crazy and desperate. The people who never shut up about it are usually those that have got significant money invested in it so it's in their best interests to scream it from the rooftops with a passion.
.I think the trouble with bitcoin is it just attracts both the crazy and desperate. The people who never shut up about it are usually those that have got significant money invested in it so it's in their best interests to scream it from the rooftops with a passion.
August 15, 2018, 12:26:47 PM
It makes sense for PayPal to be threatened by Bitcoin because it has the potential to kill their business, and when people are threatened they'll lash out.
August 15, 2018, 12:17:09 PM
From the belief that Satoshi is Craig Wright, to some considering that Bitcoin is going zero, this nascent industry has had its fair share of unpopular and contrasting opinions. A former Paypal CEO’s appearance on CNBC has only cemented this theme, with this legacy market proponent likening crypto to a cult.
Full article on NewBTC
Full article on NewBTC
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