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Topic: [2019-10-10] How the U.S. Government Tried – and Failed – to Shut Down Bitcoin (Read 338 times)

legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1427
Don't get me wrong on this one but their operation hasn't stop yet that even their local governments like New York has issued what they call "BitLicenses" just to make the industry less desirable to enter.

NY has always been extremely over-regulated. It affects pretty much every non crypto part of the industry severely. In crypto's case it doesn't really hurt the ecosystem with how most services would definitely apply for such a license if the demand within NY would justify it, but since it's lacking, they rather avoid it, which is a good thing.

In the end, the license itself isn't a bad thing per se if it was easy to obtain. It's the bureaucracy that makes it take a year at the very least when things move 'smoothly', which further bumps the cost a service need to spend.

Coinbase a few days ago announced that they are granted an e-money license by the Central Bank of Ireland. This is pretty big news for the space as it once again proves that not all governments are against Bitcoin and the broader crypto market.
hero member
Activity: 1806
Merit: 672
This is just one of the many instances the US government had tried to shutdown Bitcoin even the whole crypto industry but even if they tried to do it several times already the industry still prevails. Don't get me wrong on this one but their operation hasn't stop yet that even their local governments like New York has issued what they call "BitLicenses" just to make the industry less desirable to enter. With this ongoing crackdown the only way to stop this and defeat them is to have the industry to be successful and I think we all know this is an inevitable thing to happen.
newbie
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legendary
Activity: 3430
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legendary
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let's put it another way then


is arguing about whether the sky is azure or indigo more important than stopping corrupt people using pychological tactics to lie to millions of people? you seem to be in favor of arguing about a coin toss

I give up, you win! your ego is more important than millions of innocent people murdered, and millions more to come, all because pointing out who did it is a conspiracy theory. My bad Roll Eyes

Hey! I apologized and wanted to stop, so I find it extremely unfair to say it was about my ego.
I stated that people already took over that specific meaning (and I happen to have done the same thing) and it's next to impossible to revert that.
And I stated that it can be easier to use any of the meanings and clear up what meaning it is (so go forward) than try to revert.
So I see it different: both of us lost.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
let's put it another way then


is arguing about whether the sky is azure or indigo more important than stopping corrupt people using pychological tactics to lie to millions of people? you seem to be in favor of arguing about a coin toss

I give up, you win! your ego is more important than millions of innocent people murdered, and millions more to come, all because pointing out who did it is a conspiracy theory. My bad Roll Eyes
legendary
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you sound a lot like the sort of abusive person who popularized "conspiracy theory" to mean "crazy story": you'll do and say anything to hold onto what you've got, even when you know why it's wrong

I just happen to disagree with you. I just use the expression in the way many use and, while I understood your point, I tried to show you that there can be another point of view too.
What would be the point of an argument if I would have continued with "yes, sir" on every statement of yours? Is that what you expected? I surely hope not.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
you sound a lot like the sort of abusive person who popularized "conspiracy theory" to mean "crazy story": you'll do and say anything to hold onto what you've got, even when you know why it's wrong
legendary
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I do want to continue this argument, because actual dictionaries are getting it wrong too.

OK, but be warned, my following answer will come based on (logic based on) how I understand the things in the language I know better than English, so it can be wrong.
Also, it may get long and it's already way off-topic.

These dictionary publishers would have the same problem as you in a court case where you are charged with a conspiracy: saying "Oh come on, that's only a conspiracy you're saying I did!!!" would be a confession, it wouldn't even get to court if you said that in a police interview.

In theory, in the court, they should talk about the facts, not about a way of saying. And if needed, they can ask for clear up and avoid confusion.
Also, in court, it's no uncommon that people hand write confession of something being white (the color is chosen for being something pretty clear), and after some time retract it and maybe write it was red.
Also, the dictionaries are pretty clear about what conspiracy / conspiring means. While you also know that an expression of multiple words, "a saying", can alter pretty badly the initial meaning of those words.
So imho your explanation doesn't stand.

So, I put it to you again, who should change their position here? You, and people who write dictionaries? Or the multiple institutions that would have you captured and locked in concrete room with murderers and child rapists for neighbors?

Neither.
Although some online dictionaries may ho a lousy job, the reputable ones are good, no matter what you think.
A dictionary has to reflect all the possible meanings, including the ones you don't agree with. Languages are not as fixed as math.

saying "not english" is no excuse here, most foreign languages had the word "conspiracy" exported directly into their language from English, with the spelling slightly changed, because it's a legal expression, pertaining to criminality, and only loosely connected to crazy stories if at all.

I find this particularly surprising because you are a non-native English speaker, as your own language almost certainly makes correct use of the word, in it's proper context.

You continue to insist on one word and link it to legal stuff.

Well, I'll tell about this single word too: some definitions tell that a conspiracy is a secret agreement for carrying out an illegal, immoral or overall negative activity.
As you can see, while it's about something bad, it's not necessarily about something illegal.
But this is irrelevant, since the two word should be taken together for the meaning. This happens in all languages.


I'm sorry if this seems obnoxious, but the word "conspiracy" is being used in a thoroughly Orwellian double-speak manner since the 2000's (and really the 1960's), and in a rather insidious and unpalatable way.

I'm not sure I've understood this right.
The term "conspiracy theory" is used a lot of times for stories about "bad things" various "parts" of the "state" do or cover up.
And of course I expect most of them be made up, only to sell certain types of newspapers or make some people famous. (Hence my first post in this topic).

When someone powerful is accused of doing something heinously immoral, their instant response these days is to use their influence to have the accusation dismissed as a "conspiracy theory".
Every time you or a dictionary, or anyone else misuses the word, it reinforces the the social pressure not to take an interest in powerful people committing unethical or immoral acts, because the "conspiracy theory" label will be (mis-)used to make you appear crazy or paranoid. This is very clever (yet simple) psychological manipulation, not least because me saying that can be believably dismissed as crazy or paranoid, it's a beautiful concept to abuse if you're powerful and want to sweep something you did under the rug.

I consider it our responsibility towards everyone else, including the unborn, not to let this happen unchallenged.

This is the equivalent of asking nicely the avalanche slow down, really.
The language changes, we like it or not.


And we should never forget, that Bitcoin itself is a direct consequence of solid facts that are..... dismissed as a conspiracy theory. If you relay the facts about financial markets, institutions and central banks, the powerful people with an interest to prop up their bullshit dog-ate-my-homework stories about themselves will call you a conspiracy theorist, and the facts a conspiracy theory, because you're telling the truth and exposing their lies.

Those things you (and me in this case) call facts, if taken into court, could not make a case, because we may not be able to prove them.
And since with no proof there's no crime, so indeed we have a conspiracy theory. Life is cruel, what can I say? There's not only black and white, there are also plenty of shades of grey.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Or, maybe you could just, I dunno, learn what words mean before you use them?


conspiracy theory
NOUN
A belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for an unexplained event.

So "crazy story" can fit well in the description.

I do want to continue this argument, because actual dictionaries are getting it wrong too.


These dictionary publishers would have the same problem as you in a court case where you are charged with a conspiracy: saying "Oh come on, that's only a conspiracy you're saying I did!!!" would be a confession, it wouldn't even get to court if you said that in a police interview.


So, I put it to you again, who should change their position here? You, and people who write dictionaries? Or the multiple institutions that would have you captured and locked in concrete room with murderers and child rapists for neighbors?

saying "not english" is no excuse here, most foreign languages had the word "conspiracy" exported directly into their language from English, with the spelling slightly changed, because it's a legal expression, pertaining to criminality, and only loosely connected to crazy stories if at all.

I find this particularly surprising because you are a non-native English speaker, as your own language almost certainly makes correct use of the word, in it's proper context.




I'm sorry if this seems obnoxious, but the word "conspiracy" is being used in a thoroughly Orwellian double-speak manner since the 2000's (and really the 1960's), and in a rather insidious and upalatable way.

When someone powerful is accused of doing something heinously immoral, their instant response these days is to use their influence to have the accusation dismissed as a "conspiracy theory". Every time you or a dictionary, or anyone else misuses the word, it reinforces the the social pressure not to take an interest in powerful people committing unethical or immoral acts, because the "conspiracy theory" label will be (mis-)used to make you appear crazy or paranoid. This is very clever (yet simple) psychological manipulation, not least because me saying that can be believably dismissed as crazy or paranoid, it's a beautiful concept to abuse if you're powerful and want to sweep something you did under the rug.

I consider it our responsibility towards everyone else, including the unborn, not to let this happen unchallenged.

And we should never forget, that Bitcoin itself is a direct consequence of solid facts that are..... dismissed as a conspiracy theory. If you relay the facts about financial markets, institutions and central banks, the powerful people with an interest to prop up their bullshit dog-ate-my-homework stories about themselves will call you a conspiracy theorist, and the facts a conspiracy theory, because you're telling the truth and exposing their lies.
legendary
Activity: 3668
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Or, maybe you could just, I dunno, learn what words mean before you use them?


conspiracy theory
NOUN
A belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for an unexplained event.

So "crazy story" can fit well in the description.



However, I don't want to argue more on this, I can accept that since English is not my mother tongue I do make mistakes.
If it makes you feel better @Carlton Banks, I apologize for creating confusion by not using the expression in its strict meaning. Lesson learned, I'll be more careful with this.
hero member
Activity: 1008
Merit: 531
what crime was committed? you seem to think there was, what was it?

No! What I saidmeant is that some can imply that.

Edit: and my long post was exactly to make you understand what I meant.
More edit: the beauty of a conspiracy theory is into making people believe that something happened (or could have happened), even if nothing did happen.
No. There wasn't an "implyed crime", there was just no crime at all. It was simply just a blurring of lines by the US goverment, and they made regular transactions seem like illegal, money laundering transactions and attempted to act on that.

Pretty shit for the goverment to do, it's actually really sad they would go to such lengths to shut this down.
full member
Activity: 952
Merit: 104
I believe total banned to all US territory is possible, but not bitcoin shutting down world wide, because until people and a lot of countries supporting bitcoin as legal and allowing it to use and treat as new form of money nobody can stop it being decentralized currency. And people are have an owndecision either he/she a US citizen have an rights to get envolve as bitcoin holder anonymously.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
the beauty of a conspiracy theory is into making people believe that something happened (or could have happened), even if nothing did happen.

a conspiracy means "plan a criminal act", not "crazy story"


if it means "crazy story", it would be a brilliant legal defense in a court case.

Judge: "Mr. Neurotic Fish, you are charged with conspiracy to commit murder, how do you plead?"
NeuroticFish: "Oh please, you're prosecuting me with a theory, about a conspiracy? You can't be serious!"

Presumably you also think you'd win such a court case like that? Roll Eyes


if "conspiracy" means "fake bullshit" all of a sudden, the court system and the legal system need to change what their definition of that word is, and they need to do it quickly.


Or, maybe you could just, I dunno, learn what words mean before you use them?
legendary
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what crime was committed? you seem to think there was, what was it?

No! What I saidmeant is that some can imply that.

Edit: and my long post was exactly to make you understand what I meant.
More edit: the beauty of a conspiracy theory is into making people believe that something happened (or could have happened), even if nothing did happen.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Like in many conspiracy theories, everything is written in a shady manner.
The title tells "has revealed that her boss at the U.S. Attorney’s office asked her to look into shutting down Bitcoin"(*)
The "there’s this thing called Bitcoin and we need to investigate it"(*) part can be seen as a something normal or, if your head is conspiracy-oriented, can mean the introduction to anything bad you can imagine.
The article continues in a "conspirationistic" manner "While the U.S. Department of Justice’s (DOJ) goal may have been to shut it down"(*)

As people that understand (better or worse) Bitcoin, we know that Bitcoin cannot be "taken down" like this. Hence no crime. Still, it has all the ingredients for a conspiracy theory.
(Just as a clearer analogy: everybody who knows a tiny bit of physics understands that Earth is not flat and cannot be flat, still this doesn't stop the growing club of flat-earthers.)

I don't understand where the confusion was/is.

do you understand how to answer a simple, 1 dimensional question? you're so confused, you don't even know what you're confused about Cheesy


what crime was committed? you seem to think there was, what was it?
legendary
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what
crime
did
Katie Haun
and
the
US Attorney's office
plan
to
commit?

Like in many conspiracy theories, everything is written in a shady manner.
The title tells "has revealed that her boss at the U.S. Attorney’s office asked her to look into shutting down Bitcoin"(*)
The "there’s this thing called Bitcoin and we need to investigate it"(*) part can be seen as a something normal or, if your head is conspiracy-oriented, can mean the introduction to anything bad you can imagine.
The article continues in a "conspirationistic" manner "While the U.S. Department of Justice’s (DOJ) goal may have been to shut it down"(*)

As people that understand (better or worse) Bitcoin, we know that Bitcoin cannot be "taken down" like this. Hence no crime. Still, it has all the ingredients for a conspiracy theory.
(Just as a clearer analogy: everybody who knows a tiny bit of physics understands that Earth is not flat and cannot be flat, still this doesn't stop the growing club of flat-earthers.)

I don't understand where the confusion was/is.
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 3015
Welt Am Draht
The title makes it sound like the US government attacked Bitcoin, but Bitcoin withstood and they had to give up on their attempt, but in reality it's just one person in the government asked another person to investigate Bitcoin to "shut it down". So, the US government hasn't failed or even actually tried to shut down Bitcoin.

The first thing most people would do when looking at something new and potentially powerful is to investigate whether it has any glaring weaknesses. This article doesn't mention that. Or any 'shut down'. My ring piece could eject something more rigourous and readable.
legendary
Activity: 3024
Merit: 2148
The title makes it sound like the US government attacked Bitcoin, but Bitcoin withstood and they had to give up on their attempt, but in reality it's just one person in the government asked another person to investigate Bitcoin to "shut it down". So, the US government hasn't failed or even actually tried to shut down Bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 952
Merit: 513
I won't be very surprised if this is true. Back in 2011, Wikileaks started accepting donations in BTC to stay online (the FBI tad taken down all the other methods of funding). The Americans tried really hard to block BTC donations to Wikileaks, but they failed. That was when they realized that Bitcoin can pose a real challenge to their authority. They might have tried 51% attack or some other method, but in the end they failed to destroy Bitcoin. And now Bitcoin has grown too big and I really doubt whether the FBI can do anything about it.
Exactly what I thought off. This doesn't feel that far-fetched to some of the other stuff we know the US government has done and the wikileaks incident was the one I thought of as well, they tried so hard to block them from getting donations but it never worked out.

Katie Huan seems like a real piece of work, going after people for basically nothing... She should be arrested for sure.
legendary
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I won't be very surprised if this is true. Back in 2011, Wikileaks started accepting donations in BTC to stay online (the FBI tad taken down all the other methods of funding). The Americans tried really hard to block BTC donations to Wikileaks, but they failed. That was when they realized that Bitcoin can pose a real challenge to their authority. They might have tried 51% attack or some other method, but in the end they failed to destroy Bitcoin. And now Bitcoin has grown too big and I really doubt whether the FBI can do anything about it.
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1427
She wasn't the first person who wanted to go after Bitcoin, a year earlier two US senators tried to do the same thing around the time Gawker published an article about SR:

Not the first not the last. In some cases I doubt it's pure ignorance on their side, because these types have advisors and whatnot doing research for them. Most of them know damn well that Bitcoin can't be shut down. It's more likely an attempt to discourage the common joe from getting started.

What's the first that comes up to most people's mind when they hear/read about Bitcoin for the first time? "Governments, aren't they going to shut it down, etc?"

These are scare attempts in my opinion. I legit had a family member of mine send me a similar article last year because he was worried about the status of Bitcoin. The price was going down as well, which he thought was the main reason. Look at the current timing of this article. It's no longer coincidence. Lips sealed
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
It's in the article, it seems she wised up.

you're equally confused.

Neurotic Fish was suggesting this US Attorney made a plan to commit a crime, I'm saying that wasn't in the article. Despite how prevalent corruption is in US government departments, US Attorneys are usually prosecuting crimes, not planning them


legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 1724
what

crime

did

Katie Haun

and

the

US Attorney's office

plan

to

commit?



It's in the article, it seems she wised up. But it also says she prosecuted people for 'money laundering', and that can mean a lot.

She wasn't the first person who wanted to go after Bitcoin, a year earlier two US senators tried to do the same thing around the time Gawker published an article about SR:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-financial-bitcoins/senators-seek-crackdown-on-bitcoin-currency-idUSTRE7573T320110608
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
It's the perfect conspiracy theory, because it cannot be checked.

what

crime

did

Katie Haun

and

the

US Attorney's office

plan

to

commit?

hero member
Activity: 1036
Merit: 514
Satoshi Nakamoto being anonymous helped a lot. Maybe bitcoin developers already knew that a crackdown is coming. Being decentralized in nature, there is nothing governments can do to shut down on bitcoin. Not even banning miners and considering it illegal since there are many forms and ways miners can do, the world is big.

Yeah, Satoshi suddenly disappeared after Gavin Andresen said he was going to talk at the CIA, see it's coming? Satoshi know the right thing to do to avoid any attempt to crack down bitcoin.

Quote
Now the US is trying to regulate it to assert control on stake holders. The autocratic Chinese government knowing it cannot control bitcoin did massive bans. Binance for example left China, stood still and now its one of the biggest crypto exchange in the world.

Even if many countries tried to hold bitcoin development, it's unstoppable and there are some bitcoin-friendly countries such as Malta and Liechtenstein. Cryptocurrency will thrives there.
legendary
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It's the perfect conspiracy theory, because it cannot be checked. Also can make somebody rather famous. A few shows here and there, a few articles here and there and the person becomes known and may even become influencer or whatever.

Although such scenarios are possible, I would not jump into believing them right away. As said, probably Satoshi is anonymous exactly to avoid this kind of scenarios.. or worse.
sr. member
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Satoshi Nakamoto being anonymous helped a lot. Maybe bitcoin developers already knew that a crackdown is coming. Being decentralized in nature, there is nothing governments can do to shut down on bitcoin. Not even banning miners and considering it illegal since there are many forms and ways miners can do, the world is big.

Now the US is trying to regulate it to assert control on stake holders. The autocratic Chinese government knowing it cannot control bitcoin did massive bans. Binance for example left China, stood still and now its one of the biggest crypto exchange in the world.
sr. member
Activity: 1008
Merit: 355


I would be tickled thinking the three but the last one is really amazing and quite interesting. It is easy to assume, using this narrative, that the government (or rather some personalities working for the government) found out that it is impossible to shut down a decentralized network like Bitcoin but still thanks to the government anyway that unlike China it did not ban the many cryptocurrency exchanges and other crypto-related businesses based in the USA though it is getting stricter everyday and regulatory measures are getting burdensome...the many prices to pay in doing business with the top economy.

No government can ever do against Bitcoin but they can make trading, ownership and doing business with cryptocurrency so difficult if not impossible. As a disruption with the traditional financial and economic system, Bitcoin will naturally attract enemies specially with the regulators and politicians (old guards of the palace). This where the role of the government can be so critical relative to goal of a more widespread use and adoption of Bitcoin.

sr. member
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I'm not sure what tickles me more - that the U.S. government thought that it could "take out" Bitcoin, that Ms. Haun
sidestepped its agenda and had the foresight to learn about and understand crypto rather than just knee-jerk reacting,
or the massive contributions she has made to the space since then.



A former federal prosecutor turned Bitcoin proponent has revealed that her boss at the U.S. Attorney’s office asked her
to look into shutting down Bitcoin.

The year was 2012 and Katie Haun, then a federal prosecutor with the U.S. Attorney’s office, didn’t know anything about
Satoshi Nakamoto’s Bitcoin – until she was asked to investigate and “take down” the world’s flagship cryptocurrency.

“They said ‘we have this perfect assignment for you’ – there’s this thing called Bitcoin and we need to investigate it,” Haun
recounted in a recent interview with CNBC.

“That was the first time I’d ever heard of Bitcoin,” she added.


Read in full: https://micky.com.au/how-the-u-s-government-tried-and-failed-to-shut-down-bitcoin/
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