[2019-10-23] New Bitcoin ETF Proposal Filed by Gold Fund Veteran

Kakmakr

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" However, the Trust will not purchase or sell bitcoin directly but will acquire it via shares called “baskets.” So, this is just another one of those investment options that are based on something that can be controlled by a internal (centralized) private ledger. Roll Eyes

I never get excited when companies try to push for a approval for something that are not settled in actual bitcoins, because it adds zero value to Bitcoin. These companies are trying their best to adhere to all the requirements of the SEC and they are totally missing the point on what Bitcoin investments is supposed to be. Roll Eyes

chaoscoinz

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Quote from: CryptoBry on October 23, 2019, 08:37:18 AM

Delaware-based asset manager Kryptoin Investment Advisors applied with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) to launch a Bitcoin (BTC) Exchange Traded Fund (ETF) on Oct. 15.

The company plans to hold Bitcoin and value the shares of the trust according to the Chicago Mercantile Exchange Bitcoin Reference Rate. The cryptocurrency will be held at an unspecified third-party insured custodian that is also regulated under the Investment Advisers Act of 1940.

The SEC filing also details that the Trust will hold Bitcoin “in seeking to ensure that the price of the Trust’s shares is reflective of the actual bitcoin market.” However, the Trust will not purchase or sell bitcoin directly but will acquire it via shares called “baskets.”

Read more of this news here...

Of course, winner never quits and quitter never wins. After many rounds of rejections of ETF applications suffered by different proponents, here comes another entry and this time around by the Kryptoin Investment Advisors and is going to be called Kryptoin Bitcoin ETF Trust. The strategy here has become throw all the gel you've got and soon one will eventually stick on the wall.

But are we really that excited of the prospect of this getting approved or has this become just another routine and a boring one? And in the first place, do we really need an ETF?

Hell the way that I see it is this, companies should continue to throw ETF's at the SEC in hopes of one finally being approved. As of late, the ETF proposals have been put through the ringer and they've been rejected for well over a year now. The SEC regulatory body has cited the potential for fraud and heavy market manipulation (still a problem) as its main culprit for all of the denials. The financial researches have heavy doubts about one being approved before the end of the year .

Here is an article from CNBC explaining further, just a hypotheses though

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/15/bitcoin-etf-hits-another-snag-and-approval-wont-come-anytime-soon.html

error08

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Quote from: gentlemand on October 23, 2019, 08:41:04 AM

Quote from: CryptoBry on October 23, 2019, 08:37:18 AM

But are we really that excited of the prospect of this getting approved or has this become just another routine and a boring one? And in the first place, do we really need an ETF?

The SEC have perfectly reasonable doubts about the market itself that no application can ever address. It's an objection that goes to the entire foundations of how the market rolls.

In future there should be less overtly crooked or amateurish operations. There may also be some proper decentralised exchanges which would probably turn the SEC off even more.

No one and nothing needs an ETF. It might be a neat bonus but I don't think it'll ever happen.

They will always try to submit bitcoin ETF proposals even it was and will be rejected again. Since there are many proposals now and several denials, ETF becomes a common thing in the market, no more hype unless one is accepted.
Yeah, we know bitcoin ETF has no chance of being accepted as long as the bitcoin market capitalization is still relatively small and prone to be manipulated.

magneto

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Why are we still talking about ETF approvals at all?

I don't think that any ETFs in their current form is going to get approved by the SEC. They are honestly sending a very strong signal with each time rejecting the subsequent ETF application. Nothing has changed this time round so I don't know why people are expecting a different result.

Besides, I've grown sick of saying this, but ETFs don't matter at all to actual adoption. They are all about allowing fund managers and institutions to profit more, and does not affect the fundamentals of BTC whatsoever.

1Referee

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Quote from: BitHodler on October 26, 2019, 10:13:25 AM

I doubt we'll get to see an ETF be approved until the exchanges in Asia stop being shady, which isn't going to happen so they will keep wash trading and the SEC will keep rejecting the proposals of any applicant.

I agree that not much will change on overseas exchanges, but with more regulated entities in the US generating more volume, it will provide the SEC enough confidence to get an ETF to go through.

People pooped on Bakkt and there Bakkt was yesterday generating over 1160BTC volume. I don't expect them to keep pushing such volumes every single day at this stage, but they will grow their volumes gradually where price discovery within the US becomes 'honest' enough for the SEC to let an ETF go through.

Nowhere in the world have that many large institutions devoted research and development to offering these financial products as those within the US. They wouldn't do that if this space was rubbish or if the odds of an ETF to be approved were close to zero.

BitHodler

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Quote from: dunfida on October 25, 2019, 06:41:54 PM

ETF isnt reallythat needed though but why people do still keep pushing? SEC doesnt have any plans on approving them since in the beginning.

People are pushing for an ETF because they think it will pump the price in the run-up to the launch, where they then use the launch as a sell the news event. It's just the profiteering aspect that people care about.

I doubt we'll get to see an ETF be approved until the exchanges in Asia stop being shady, which isn't going to happen so they will keep wash trading and the SEC will keep rejecting the proposals of any applicant.

Carlton Banks

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My prediction:

A decentralized Bitcoin denominated trading platform will make a joke out of Wall Street, City of London, Frankfurt & Paris Bourse and Hong Kong & Singapore long before any of these clowns get with the program. It will trade shares in crypto-based businesses, currencies against each other (using independent proxy/stable coins based in multiple offshore finance centers to handle fiat trading), all the various contracts for difference, and then will begin trading commodities against BTC too.

This sort of news isn't the loss to the crypto-asset realm it's made out to be. All the incumbent system is doing is sowing the seeds of it's own irrelevance, I mean are they even performing any meaningful price discovery any more, y'know, the supposed purpose they were created for?

dunfida

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Quote from: squatter on October 24, 2019, 03:37:10 PM

Quote

Kryptoin Investment Advisors

These guys sound really legitimate. Roll Eyes

Let's have a look:
https://kryptoin.io/company/
https://kryptoin.io/our-team/

Quote

Kryptoin is a global company registered in the Cayman Islands with employees and members in Canada, US, Singapore, India and the Ukraine

Kryptoin Investment Advisors LLC is a Delaware based subsidiary and is the sponsor to the Kryptoin Bitcoin ETF Trust.

Kryptoin began in Toronto, Canada late in 2016 with the anticipation that Bitcoin and digital assets would become a bigger part of everyone’s financial future.

So VanEck, the Wall Street giant, gets shot down by the SEC -- but these clowns are getting approved? Not bloody likely. Cheesy

If this thing would happen then it would really be like "joke of century". No brainer that another ETF proposal would be next on the rejected list.

ETF isnt reallythat needed though but why people do still keep pushing? SEC doesnt have any plans on approving them since in the beginning.

chaoscoinz

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All the ETF proposals up to now have been either delayed or outright rejected. I think the manipulation within the market plays a huge role on the outlook of how the regulators respond to such requests. Maybe one will pass by next year some time.
I think the next step needed for cryptocurrencies to move forward is the institutional investors and governmental bodies support and guidance. I'm not sure but it these failed proposals and Libra being put through the ringer could be the reason why the market is crashing.

Slow death

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How do these guys have the courage to submit this Filed when for years all ETFs are rejected? and it was promising ETFs that were rejected. I think what these guys want is to gain more exposure on the news channels, as the SEC has its weird habit of postponing its decision for a long time, it will ensure that for a long time news channels keep talking about this ETF and this company. they know they will be rejected

hatshepsut93

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There won't be any ETF until the SEC deems that Bitcoin market as a whole is regulated enough and doesn't have any large scale manipulation. This means that we can safely ignore any ETF news for now, and the market seems to have been doing it for quite some time already, as the price shows very little correlation with ETF news, especially compared to what we had in the last year.

rodel caling

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Yeah that is true to get win do not quite and surrender until have an option to fight the right and believe the importance of bitcoin ETF.
Hoping this new proposal become successful to convince the official of the United States security exchange commission according to guidelines subbed.

squatter

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STOP SNITCHIN'

Quote

Kryptoin Investment Advisors

These guys sound really legitimate. Roll Eyes

Let's have a look:
https://kryptoin.io/company/
https://kryptoin.io/our-team/

Quote

Kryptoin is a global company registered in the Cayman Islands with employees and members in Canada, US, Singapore, India and the Ukraine

Kryptoin Investment Advisors LLC is a Delaware based subsidiary and is the sponsor to the Kryptoin Bitcoin ETF Trust.

Kryptoin began in Toronto, Canada late in 2016 with the anticipation that Bitcoin and digital assets would become a bigger part of everyone’s financial future.

So VanEck, the Wall Street giant, gets shot down by the SEC -- but these clowns are getting approved? Not bloody likely. Cheesy

Harlot

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A new entity enters the Bitcoin ETF race yet what will be their difference compared to the past applications they have denied? The SEC has been doing this for years and they have denied a lot of BTC ETF proposals already one of the recent ones of course is Bitwise for the reason of "lack of requirements". I tell you all what they are doing now is just dodging and evading all proposals and if they can't handle it they will just ask another extension and move the "final" deadline on a later date.

hv_

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Quote from: gentlemand on October 23, 2019, 08:41:04 AM

Quote from: CryptoBry on October 23, 2019, 08:37:18 AM

But are we really that excited of the prospect of this getting approved or has this become just another routine and a boring one? And in the first place, do we really need an ETF?

The SEC have perfectly reasonable doubts about the market itself that no application can ever address. It's an objection that goes to the entire foundations of how the market rolls.

In future there should be less overtly crooked or amateurish operations. There may also be some proper decentralised exchanges which would probably turn the SEC off even more.

No one and nothing needs an ETF. It might be a neat bonus but I don't think it'll ever happen.

Are you speaking for more industrialized and regulated, transparent Bitcoin ?

You are welcome

I agree, ETF is not needed

1Referee

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Same name. Same plan. Same outcome.

One can measure institutional demand by following how many Bitcoins are locked up in Vaneck's "limited etf" trust. For those not willing to click on links, currently they hold ~64BTC.

I expect the number of coins in the fund to significantly increase once institutional players have confidence in a bottom being near, so definitely keep checking back there.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on October 23, 2019, 01:27:26 PM

This volatility smells of manipulation.

It smells of lack of liquidity. It also smells of stops being triggered, longs getting liquidated, etc. Perfectly normal market activity.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: gentlemand on October 23, 2019, 01:13:56 PM

It's the eternal market policing/ 'manipulation' thing.

This volatility smells of manipulation. But you're right, I guess I linked these two too tight.
I'll correct the other post.

Quote from: gentlemand on October 23, 2019, 01:13:56 PM

I don't think they'll ever be able to get that nailed enough to satisfy them. That's probably for the best.

Nah. Bitcoin already taught me to never say never. You (and me) don't know what will happen in the future. At some point the exchanges may get more regulated and the levels of manipulation (and maybe volatility too) could decrease greatly.
But yeah.. "maybe", and "could", and "maybe in the future" are not useful now.

gentlemand

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on October 23, 2019, 01:10:45 PM

Today Bitcoin has fallen some 500$ in some 5 minutes. While we are (more or less) used to this, SEC pretty clearly stated that they don't like it (or at least that's what I remember).

I don't recall them ever saying the volatility itself was an issue. There are ETFs out there custom built to be as volatile as possible - https://etfdb.com/etfdb-category/volatility/ and since they exist the SEC were clearly happy with them.

It's the eternal market policing/ 'manipulation' thing. I don't think they'll ever be able to get that nailed enough to satisfy them. That's probably for the best.

NeuroticFish

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Today Bitcoin has fallen some 500$ in some 5 minutes. While we are (more or less) used to this, SEC pretty clearly stated that they don't like ~~it (or at least that's what I remember).~~ the market manipulation which I suspect it causes many such events.
So I agree with @gentlemand and I'll say it: SEC will most probably reject it. And most probably nobody will be surprised (well, maybe some newspapers will fake a surprise though)

Edit: added the italic text to correct the initial statement based on this.

audaciousbeing

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on October 23, 2019, 09:18:28 AM

*yawn*

anyone heard any good jokes lately? oh no, here's one gift-wrapped: a new ETF story, what a fascinating turn of events that is

This is the summary of every ETF related story. What I seem not to understand is why people would be doing something the same way and be expecting a different result. The ETF story for approvals and counter approvals is something that have been said since sometimes 2018 as far as a I can remember and in between then and now, nothing less than 10 that I have read about and none have been given the sought after approval. It seems crypto entrepreneur and in a rat race of being the first person to launch their own ETF approvals as that is the only explanations for all of these. The regulatory agencies are not ready, nothing significant is ready to tilt their opinion, then its better to leave it and focus on something else.

Carlton Banks

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*yawn*

anyone heard any good jokes lately? oh no, here's one gift-wrapped: a new ETF story, what a fascinating turn of events that is

cr1776

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Quote from: CryptoBry on October 23, 2019, 08:37:18 AM

...,
But are we really that excited of the prospect of this getting approved or has this become just another routine and a boring one? And in the first place, do we really need an ETF?

"Need"? No. Something beneficial to the entire ecosystem, yes.

Will it be approved? Something will eventually, sometime soon? That is anyone's guess.

The good thing is that there are a fair number of groups who have attempted this and each time more of the (supposed) issues are dealt with. Some of those issues won't be dealt with until the market is more mature. The somewhat ironic thing is that adding an ETF to the mix would tend to stabilize the global bitcoin market and make it less prone to manipulation on some of the sketchy exchanges because it would add a lot of volume and a lot of ballast in the form of people buying for protection which is something that would be beneficial to everyone.

Not to mention an ETF would allow more people to take part safely in future appreciation. While it certainly is doable to purchase it on your own, if people can purchase an ETF from their brokerage account, it makes things much simpler.

gentlemand

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Quote from: CryptoBry on October 23, 2019, 08:37:18 AM

But are we really that excited of the prospect of this getting approved or has this become just another routine and a boring one? And in the first place, do we really need an ETF?

The SEC have perfectly reasonable doubts about the market itself that no application can ever address. It's an objection that goes to the entire foundations of how the market rolls.

In future there should be less overtly crooked or amateurish operations. There may also be some proper decentralised exchanges which would probably turn the SEC off even more.

No one and nothing needs an ETF. It might be a neat bonus but I don't think it'll ever happen.

CryptoBry

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Delaware-based asset manager Kryptoin Investment Advisors applied with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) to launch a Bitcoin (BTC) Exchange Traded Fund (ETF) on Oct. 15.

The company plans to hold Bitcoin and value the shares of the trust according to the Chicago Mercantile Exchange Bitcoin Reference Rate. The cryptocurrency will be held at an unspecified third-party insured custodian that is also regulated under the Investment Advisers Act of 1940.

The SEC filing also details that the Trust will hold Bitcoin “in seeking to ensure that the price of the Trust’s shares is reflective of the actual bitcoin market.” However, the Trust will not purchase or sell bitcoin directly but will acquire it via shares called “baskets.”

Read more of this news here...

Of course, winner never quits and quitter never wins. After many rounds of rejections of ETF applications suffered by different proponents, here comes another entry and this time around by the Kryptoin Investment Advisors and is going to be called Kryptoin Bitcoin ETF Trust. The strategy here has become throw all the gel you've got and soon one will eventually stick on the wall.

But are we really that excited of the prospect of this getting approved or has this become just another routine and a boring one? And in the first place, do we really need an ETF?

Topic: [2019-10-23] New Bitcoin ETF Proposal Filed by Gold Fund Veteran (Read 293 times)