Topic: [2020-05-16] Pine64 Drops BitPay Before First Bitcoin Payment (Read 392 times)

Thanks for sharing! I may use this in the future, but really would love to have an "easy" option. Perhaps we can simply rebrand this as "BTCPay by me" and leave the additional details for me to worry about when discussing with merchants.

As for AML/KYC, you shouldn't have to do that for buying a coffee... unless it's a thousand dollar coffee. I agree what you're describing is onerous and stupid, but following the laws shouldn't be that burdensome which is the point I was making.

This thing is given especially Bitpay is offering up similar services as Coinbase Commerce as well as them being situated in the USA they are automatically a service that is heavily regulated with AML compliances that's why they are recommending BTCpay as an alternative I guess since they become more anonymous when paying as well as get out of centralized control as much as possible that's one of the things crypto users are worrying about and BTCpay can eliminate these.

Ahh my apologies, I misread that as "Why do folks not recommend Bitpay".

The most commonly recommended alternative is BTCPay, which if you pair with a payment forwarding service, can be configured to auto-convert to fiat. There is a good medium post explaining one way of setting this up here: https://medium.com/@prayankgahlot/instant-fiat-conversion-with-btcpay-1d2f3dd57352. In-built crypto to fiat conversion is also on BTCPay's roadmap for the future. BTCPay is self hosted and does not rely on any third parties.

There are other custodial/hosted payment processors which have in-built conversion, but without the privacy invading and anti-bitcoin stance of BitPay. CoinPayments and CoinGate are both quite common. They obviously require KYC from the merchant, but do not require KYC from the customers as BitPay does.

Here is a list of some other alternatives: https://github.com/alexk111/awesome-bitcoin-payment-processors

We shouldn't need it for any bitcoin transaction. The whole point of bitcoin is to be peer to peer, and not require approval from some third party who needs all your documents and to perform a full background check on you before deciding whether or not you are allowed to spend your own money. That's what fiat is for.

I would argue the opposite. If every time you want to spend bitcoin you are forced to perform KYC and send a photocopy of your passport to a payment processor, then bitcoin is going nowhere. There are already 20+ different payment processors, not to mention all the merchants who accept bitcoin directly, meaning you are more-or-less going to have to complete KYC for every new merchant you want to spend bitcoin at. Not only is that a massive inconvenience, but it's also a massive risk to your own security.

Thanks for the quick response! But allow me to be more specific in my question. BTCPay doesn't appear to have a convert to USD/fiat option.

Which payment processor do we recommend merchants to use to convert crypto to fiat/USD? Does one exist anymore?

Also, I briefly caught some of the AML/KYC discussion, and agree that we shouldn't need this for every BTC transaction; hopefully, only those above the $10k mark, or at least above $1k as a starting point (similar to casino's starting at $3k/$5k).

However, AML/KYC seems a small price to pay for getting bitcoin adoption growing. Privacy doesn't concern me (although I understand others it does affect them)... I think the average user is used to their phone tracking them and their credit card being linked, etc. so fighting the privacy fight is lesser for me compared to KYC bitcoin use.

We can fight the KYC down the road hopefully if we see it as stupid/inefficient.  I do understand setting it up from the beginning may be easier, but I would appreciate if folks don't worry too much about that if the merchants or consumers can get involved with bitcoin rather than being sidelined if that's a concession needed for prudence in certain jurisdictions at this time.

See the first reply in this thread and the link within it I posted.

https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=9888

I've reached out to see if they need any help setting up a payment processor...

Who do folks recommend if not Bitpay???

Completely agree with you, but it is possible to make payments to BitPay without installing their wallet by decoding their payment links and paying the address contained in the normal way. There are a variety of open source programs out there that will do this for you, such as https://github.com/alexk111/DeBitpay. As of this recent blog post (https://support.bitpay.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005701523), apparently BitPay invoices will now also display an amount and an address in the normal way, although I can't confirm this since I do not use any company which uses BitPay.

Wikipedia need to do better. Compare that with the Bitcoin donation page for the Human Rights Foundation - https://hrf.org/donate-bitcoin/. Accepting payments via BTCPay, absolutely zero personal details asked for, and even has PayJoin support enabled.

BitPay charges a "Network fee" to the user paying the invoice, which is variable depending on the mempool at the time, and also charges a "Processing fee" to the merchant, which is a fixed 1%.

They're collecting information, the more the merrier I guess. They don't require any dox when sending such paltry amounts of money, though, so you can write whatever you want in those fields.

The fee, however, is almost 16%! It's seems like it's a fixed fee ~$1.50 so not as bad when sending more but still, I thought the common practice was to charge the merchant (I complained in the past about a high fee for being unwilling to use BCH so I shouldn't be surprised...).

Unless it is a big amount to donate, maybe something >$5k, to suspect a money laundering?, I don't see honesty why should anyone give his full identity for 10 bucks! This is ridiculous.

I'm not too surprised, people are vocal because they got burned or had other negative experiences with them. I looked into donating to Wikipedia the other day, not only is the donation page buried pretty deeply, deeply enough for many people to miss it, but BitPay also requires an email address, a full name, and a full address.

BitBay uses outdated protocols to make BTC payments and forces users to install insecure/proprietary wallet software. It's not good for bitcoin.
Tech-savy companies like pine64 can do better and I'm almost glad they're looking for a better alternative. I hope they'll find one.

I'm surprised that a lot of users are already recommending PINE64 BTCPay as an altnernative for Bitpay. This says a lot on how the users are expressing their anger against Bitpay since they are recommending a complete opposite of it with BTCpay they have no KYCs, no fees, and the bad thing is the business will receive the payment as BTC which PINE64 may not like that's why they are trying to introduce Bitpay in their product. It might be a relief for consumers that PINE64 let their voices be heard but I doubt BTCpay will be their second option.

Believe it or not but services like those that BitPay provides are going to be needed in the cryptospace in the merchandise industry.
I once used BitPay, I wasn't very happy about the fees but my purchase happened smoothly without any problem. The only reason that pressure needs to be put is to increase competition and achieve better terms for the customers.

wholeheartedly agree, sounds like a good business move by Pine computing (I've been considering getting a Pine64 board, and was hoping they would be accepting Bitcoin for them)


Pine64 boards look to me like a good hardware platform for a Bitcoin node, as well as lightweight personal server of any kind (the top models have 6 cores, 4GB RAM and a x4 PCI express expansion slot, Pine can also supply a M.2 NVMe board and a SATA slot board that function using said PCI express slot)

Really good to see good vibes from people about BTCPay, and a reminder that people don't forget and campaigns do work. Remember when Bitpay was problematic during the Aussie forest fires when it failed to faciliatate donations too -- that caused a few people to work out BTCPay and ditch BP. So it's not just about the politics (though for me it is partially too). It's just they can be a pain in the ass for doing the very thing they're supposed to do (make a payment in bitcoin).

What kind of messed up logic is that? Requiring everyone in the world to "prove you aren't a thief"? Everyone is automatically guilty unless they give up their privacy?

How can BitPay linking your real name to your bitcoin addresses and tracking where your coins come from, where they go, and what you spend them on have "enough privacy", as you claim? If you truly believed that, then you'll have no problem sharing your real name and address and a list of all your bitcoin addresses.

aahh yes, and you always mixing up ano and privacy.

tracing can have enough privacy, but still you need to prove its all correct, or you are the thief, cause you cannot disprove that


and sure, we do not talk about micro-pay, cause this is actually what Bitcoin solves - funny idiots here wanna make btc more 'priv' ..

Ahh yes, you and your "only criminals need privacy" nonsense. I'll ask you yet again to post your real name, address, email and social media logins. If you've got nothing to hide, then you've got nothing to fear, right?

... it is only your own money if you can prove where you got it from, that's where tracing and transparency kicks in. Kyc / aml checks are not just a dumb thing, they are here to protect good ppl. Seeking to break this can only come from evil ppl, cause they need such

I'm sure there's a point at which being overzealous in trying to please their overlords is going to result in the opposite of the intended effect when enough users turn their backs on them due to all the negative experiences.

BitPay (and several other companies) literally go out of their way to inconvenience their users. If it's their home country causing them to act like this maybe they'd have been better off keeping two or more legal entities, one for the USA market with all the bells and whistles KYC the enjoy so much, and another for the rest of the world (some sort of KYC would still be necessary, especially for merchants, but it wouldn't have to be as intrusive).

Wall of text coming.
Some random thoughts and comments. Not 100% what you are looking for in terms of why BitPay does what they do, but some possible ideas.

But:

Because a lot don't care. Or they don't know. Or they think the rules apply to other people. Or are fast and loose with the rules because they think they can get away with it. You said membership. Do they think an email address is enough? That is *their* call. The law might say different if push comes to shove. Or...they are not US based.

Also, keep in mind with "direct" sales it's a different story.
You said you booked a hotel.

Did you book it direct with BTC or did you get a hotels.com giftcard?

I did an entire Black Hat / DefCon trip to LasVegas paid all with BTC but it was all converted though different people to giftcards.
Why gift cards? Because almost no hotels in Vegas take BTC (and none on the strip near the convention), And NO airline takes BTC direct.
(Once again here in the USA) And if you are in a hotel they have your ID so even if I bought and paid anonymously the minute I hit the check in counter @ Ceasars it's all over in terms of privacy. Same with flights. Want to fly somewhere in the USA try getting past TSA without ID.

Remember that is part of the issue here. Order from Merchant "X" who uses BitPay the they know who you are. BitPay does not. All BitPay has is an API call for an invoice.

So at a *guess* it's location & lawyers. They are a US corporation so their legal department is probably a bit more paranoid then others. They are also trying to be a big player so dot every i cross every t and make sure nobody can come after them for anything.

I don't know what you have bought from whom and where they and you are located so there is that.
And, also if they are not doing a direct conversion to fiat they can probably get away with a bit more.

Which might also be part of the issue we as a group have to think about.

Picking on NewEgg.com they probably are having all or at least a large chunk of their incoming BTC converted to USD.
Because, they have to pay their employees, suppliers, rent, insurance, utilities, etc in USD fiat not BTC.
So we complain that BitPay is following the KYC / AML law but what are we doing to make PSEG (electric), JLL (property manager), HP, etc. accept BTC?
If they could just give out the BTC that comes in then BitPay goes away because the BTC to fiat need dwindles to almost nothing and you can do it in house at that point and they can make their own decision to KYC / AML

Now if you will excuse me I am off to order dinner from The Cheesecake Factory with a giftcard I bought on bitrefill paid for with a lightning payment that ran through my own node . But...they still know who I am because they know what IP my node is on and you bet your ass the cable company knows what IP was on what modem and when so privacy fail again. So it is somewhat simple to trace if needed.

Stay safe.

-Dave
One more thing....

<--Full disclosure I have not checked the below since I posted it on reddit months ago, things might have changed but we were having the same discussion back then and I was being a bit snippy-->

Lets take a look at giftcards. Off the top of my head you can convert BTC & other cryptos to GCs through
bitrefill.com who does their own conversion and is based out of Sweden
coinsbee.com not sure where they are based but 100% sure it's not USA and they convert through coingate who is in Lithuania
egifter.com who is based about 5 miles from my house in NY and processes through either bitpay OR net-cents.com (Canada?)
And ..... BitPay through their app.

Guess who has the best rates by far this Christmas...BitPay direct, although "by far is still only 2% less" it's still a non trivial amount on larger purchases.

Thanks for the comprehensive answer.

I'm well aware of the regulations surrounding fiat payments, and the fact that you can and are tracked via your credit card purchases. It's part of the reason I am so interested in bitcoin - the freedom to spend my money on what I want to spend it on without some faceless company tracking all my purchases and sharing that information with the government. The government has no need to know how often I go grocery shopping or how much money I spent on x, y, or z.

So talking specifically about bitcoin, again BitPay is the only entity who have ever asked for my KYC as a customer making a purchase. I've bought groceries, clothes, entertainment, games, music, computer hardware, electronics, appliances, building materials, booked hotels, dined out, paid some subscriptions and memberships, etc., all with bitcoin. I've made purchases of more than $3000 (the limit BitPay set for KYC) in one go, and I've spent more than $3000 spread across several transactions with the same merchant. In not a single one of these places was KYC even mentioned, let alone demanded like BitPay does. If BitPay want to demand KYC, then as a private entity that is their right to do so, just as it is our right to refuse to use them, but I don't think the government are forcing them to do so at this point. If they were, why is not every merchant and service which accepts bitcoin doing so? Why are other payment processors not doing so?

If this is where we are heading, then we need to do better. If we are heading in the direction of every bitcoin merchant demanding full KYC from every customer before accepting a transaction, then bitcoin becomes little better than fiat. This needs to be resisted.

BitPay invades your privacy, takes control of your coins, decides whether or not you are allowed to spend your own money, and charges a fee for the privilege. It is the very definition of having to trust a third party which bitcoin was created to avoid.

If you paid with a credit card, then yes. The merchant processor if necessary can go back to the bank that issued your credit card and get whatever they need.
Cash is a bit more funky.
Here in the US there are a lot of regulations once you hit $10000 for one transaction in cash or CASH LIKE transaction. Or if they think you are trying to go around the $10k per transaction limit.

There is (was?) an appliance dealer in NYC that sold La Cornue stoves. They stopped taking cash years ago because of the reporting requirements. Credit card only.

Casinos, which most people think are the last bastion of cash have the following requirements:
From here: https://www.americangaming.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Best-Practice-2017.pdf

A lot of casinos start at $3000 not even $5000 just to cover their ass.

Around here car dealers are kind of funny. Many of them will not take more then $2500 in cash towards the purchase of a new car. But you can drop whatever amount of cash you want to pay your service bill.

Anyway back to BitPay, they are kind of in a tough spot. Since BTC is somewhat anonymous they are probably being a bit strict, but remember they don't know if you bought one thing from one merchant for $820. Or 15 things through 15 merchants for $925 each. But since they did the conversion it's on them to have accountability to the government if you are laundering or even worse not paying your taxes.

Kind of a funny aviation story, there is a small local airport near me. Summer 2018 another local airport with only 1 FBO ran out of Jet-A. So the owner of the FBO at the other airport hopped in his gas truck with a pile of cash and drove to the other airport to buy *at retail* Jet-A so his customers could be taken care of. He then did the loop again and again. And then they both had the government crawl up their asses because of the amount of cash that changed hands w/o paperwork.
The question did come up as how and why the other person had tens of thousands of dollars in cash. (I think it's the $4.50 he charges for a water but...)

Face to face personal cash transactions are one thing, once you get businesses and banks involved it's another world.
Do you know why in some states here in the US (cough Florida / Texas) there is a massive permitting process to do even small construction things? It's not just to generate fees, it prevents contractors from doing cash jobs. They know that there was work done, so they can follow the paper trail as to the cost / payments / taxes paid.

Who got paid, by who and where did the $ come from.

In this massive bureaucratic hell that is NY, it's actually easier to get a lot of things done then in areas where there might be some types of people that may or may not be moving large amounts of cash for distributing a certain product that may come from Central & South America. We just have criminal bankers :-)

Back to BitPay, same thing. If it ever comes back that they were sending out fiat that was converted from a BTC address that was directly attached to ransomware do you really think they want to be the ones holding the bag?

Once again, I'm not saying it's fair or good or anything like that, just that they as a business have to cover their ass.

Stay safe.

-Dave

Of course companies exchanging bitcoin to fiat at centralized exchanges will have to undergo KYC, but I have paid with bitcoin at dozens of different places with different companies, and BitPay is the only service/business/company/provider who has asked me for my KYC details. Perhaps I'm just very naive here? Are there other merchants asking for people buying goods to complete KYC first?

I don't see why it would matter if BitPay are converting to fiat automatically or the merchant is manually selling for fiat at a later date. If what you say is true, then every business should require KYC from every customer.

Without getting into the BCash / anti-bitcoin side, the entire KYC / Privacy argument that people have against BitPay is bogus.

If you want to process payments that come back to fiat in the USA you have to abide by certain regulations. Credit card companies do it, banks do it, credit card processors do it, heck even casinos on Native American Tribal Land (who are not even subject to some other US laws) do it. Yes, they have to file CTRs just like other casinos.

So dump on BitPay all you want for all the other things but the privacy / KYC stuff is them following the law. Yeah, even on the consumer side, it falls under AML. Not saying it's a good law, not saying it's a fair law, but it is the law here in the US and they are based here and have to follow it.

If you are not converting to fiat then it does not matter. If you are converting then even if you use something like BTCPay (which I do) then when you convert to fiat, depending on what country you are in the exchange will have to go through the AML / KYC for you or your business.

Stay safe.

-Dave

Ouep i agree. I prefer to see more companies functioning like BitPay but without its negative aspects, like the one you cited. It is kind of centralised + BCH support over BTC is ridiculous...
What makes me a little bit annoyed is the title of the article. I thought that the company is dropping the idea of bitcoin as a way of payment which isn't the case.
I prefer something like "Pine64 Drops BitPay And Is On Search Of A New Bitcoin Payment Method Over Twitter ‘Outcry’"...

Here's the original thread: https://twitter.com/thepine64/status/1261275844913348610

Pleasantly surprised at twitter here. Lots of people saying they would flat out refuse to use BitPay, and lots of people recommending to use BTCPay instead.

BitPay are anti-bitcoin, anti-privacy, pro-KYC (for both sellers and buyers), pro-tracking, pro-BCash, charge excessive fees, and defeat the very point of bitcoin as they are a third party which you have to trust. You can read more details here: https://debitpay.directory/anti-bitcoin/. Most companies use them because they auto-convert to fiat, and many consumers will use them because there aren't any alternative merchants which don't use it. You can set up auto-conversion with BTCPay, however, so there is no good reason to use BitPay at all.

Good that BitPay have lost another company. Hopefully the community can continue to put pressure on companies which use BitPay, and ideally not give them our custom at all. The fewer people that use BitPay, the better for the individuals and the better for bitcoin as a whole.

Pine64 Drops BitPay Before First Bitcoin Payment Over Twitter ‘Outcry’

Cryptocurrency payment processor BitPay has lost a major customer before it even began accepting any payments after a social media backlash.
In a Twitter debate on May 15, computer manufacturer Pine64 said that it had planned to use BitPay to accept cryptocurrency, but would now halt the plans while it searched for an alternative partner...
https://cointelegraph.com/news/pine64-drops-bitpay-before-first-bitcoin-payment-over-twitter-outcry

Sometimes there is good news, other times there is bad news and some bloggers or journalists are creating an art about how to write a shitty title about a good event!

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Edit: nice and constructive discussion pals (although it is slightly off topic but it is still dealing with the same context)