[2021-14-08] Elliptic discovers site that checks how "clean" digital coins are

buwaytress

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Quote from: SFR10 on August 16, 2021, 05:41:58 AM

Just realized that funds from crypto ATMs are considered as "moderate risk" on Antinalysis. Personally, I haven't seen a single BTM/crypto ATM that doesn't require its users, to go through some sort of KYC process for large amounts.
^{- IMO, it should be under the "low risk" category instead.}

I'm in an EU country and until pre-Covid lockdown, which was also the time I first learnt about AMLBot (estimate), you could use sell BTC for a daily limit of 5000 and some even 10,000 euro without KYC. That's a really high amount, no? Might have been that consideration. Machines were all taken down in the places I knew, have written about them in separate threads on forum, though the shops I enquired couldn't say, the suspicion was AMLD5 tweaks that required more KYC. They're still NOT back up where I live and it's been over a year...

SFR10

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Quote from: buwaytress on August 15, 2021, 04:54:37 AM

Didn't know they were a reseller though,

Me neither ^{[prior to reading the above link]}, but here's their blog post: Partnership with Crystal Blockchain Analytics

Just realized that funds from crypto ATMs are considered as "moderate risk" on Antinalysis. Personally, I haven't seen a single BTM/crypto ATM that doesn't require its users, to go through some sort of KYC process for large amounts.
^{- IMO, it should be under the "low risk" category instead.}

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 14, 2021, 03:23:22 PM

I also don't see why anybody would use it in the first place. "Hey, I've got some coins that I think might be rejected by an exchange or other service. Should I pay 3 bucks to find out whether or not they will be rejected, or should I pay less than that to mix or coinjoin them and completely eradicate any dubious history from them?"

That's indeed correct! I'm not sure what's the philosophy behind this service. "Let's make a service that's inaccurate and not actually useful"? I mean, unless somebody is badly misinformed, there's no reason for trying to use that..

bbc.reporter

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This can be used as an argument that criminal usage of bitcoin only at 1% of all transactions is wrong. I have always been skeptical of this. It appears the truth is showing that also blockchain analytics from Chainalysis and its counterparts might be scams. They scammed the government hehehe.

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 15, 2021, 09:31:06 AM

And some unsuspecting user may end up with the "dirty" coins, which he will receive after trading in a Dex platform, or as a reward for his freelancing work.

I mean, I completely reject the notion that some coins are "dirty" at all. As soon as a "dirty" coin has made a single transaction, then that coin could have changed hands in a perfectly legal transaction, and therefore you can no longer say that it is dirty, tainted, illegal, or any other nonsense. You have no idea if the final recipient of that coin bought it fair and square.

Also, if you are concerned about receiving "dirty" coins because you use some centralized service which is anti-bitcoin and buys in to this ridiculous notion, then you can either simply stop using that service, or mix the coins.

Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 15, 2021, 09:31:06 AM

Also, what if the criminals exchange BTC with some other cryptocurrency?

Depends what altcoin they are exchanging it to and how they exchanging. Some completely centralized coin like BCash on a centralized exchange? Easily tracked. An anonymous coin like Monero in an anonymous atomic swap? Almost impossible to track.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 14, 2021, 10:18:32 AM

If anyone is interested in checking it out, the onion link is here: pdcdvggsz5vhzbtxqn2rh27qovzga4pnrygya4ossewu64dqh2tvhsyd.onion

You must first purchase "tokens" using Monero. Tokens range from $1.20 to $3.00, depending on how many you are buying. Each token provides a lookup on one address. Most interestingly, you can see a full example analysis here: http://pdcdvggsz5vhzbtxqn2rh27qovzga4pnrygya4ossewu64dqh2tvhsyd.onion/example

It seems that they simply trace back all the coins in the address you give them until they arrive at an address which is known to be linked to one of their categories - Darknet markets, scam or thefts, exchanges, gambling sites, ATMs, payment processors, etc.

Not useful when the criminals mix their coins (i.e exchange their dirty coins, with freshly mined coins). In such cases, the criminals will be having "fresh" coins in his wallet, which can't be linked to any of the above mentioned categories. And some unsuspecting user may end up with the "dirty" coins, which he will receive after trading in a Dex platform, or as a reward for his freelancing work. From what I understood, their tool is useful only in cases where the coins are not mixed. Also, what if the criminals exchange BTC with some other cryptocurrency?

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Quote from: buwaytress on August 15, 2021, 04:54:37 AM

So, old news then, just only recently discovered by these guys. They don't sit on this forum then, do they?

If the news is recycled anywhere then it is in the crypto world - because the people who mostly read it are not knowledgeable enough even in the basics to understand any complex topic. All these so-called programs that are supposed to be able to distinguish clean from dirty coins are really just attempting to make money by analyzing something that is already publicly available to everyone.

I personally think that all this software is not nearly as effective as the tools that Snowden showed in the documents, which one or three letters agency was developed during 2013 or earlier. We all know that most cryptocurrencies are fairly transparent, regardless of coin mixers and all the other ways that can make them more private. Most people have nothing to hide anyway, and we have concluded many times that criminals still prefer cash.

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Quote from: SFR10 on August 14, 2021, 10:44:38 AM

By the look of things, Antinalysis is using the "AMLBot's API" and they're actually a reseller for "Crystal Blockchain".

Still am not at a device and connection I would like to be to try looking but if it's AMLBot, then I've definitely tried it out and it was so-so (2020 I think was when I did). Didn't know they were a reseller though, they were in the forums and seemed to be able to tweak some of the settings on request.

So, old news then, just only recently discovered by these guys. They don't sit on this forum then, do they?

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on August 14, 2021, 12:57:45 PM

I tend to believe that one of the reasons the analysis cannot find well the "tainted" money simply because the percentage of it falls under the test precision error

All this site seems to do is track the history of the coins to any known addresses. So if your coins have come from an exchange (for example) but from a new address which is not known to be associated with that exchange (which frequently occurs), then it won't pick that up and will keep looking further and further back. It's easy to see how that could lead to very inaccurate results. I also don't see why anybody would use it in the first place. "Hey, I've got some coins that I think might be rejected by an exchange or other service. Should I pay 3 bucks to find out whether or not they will be rejected, or should I pay less than that to mix or coinjoin them and completely eradicate any dubious history from them?"

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Quote from: buwaytress on August 14, 2021, 04:29:53 AM

Quote

"It actually wasn't very good at identifying links to criminal sites. However, it will inevitably improve over time. So I think this is going to be a significant capability for criminals and money launderers in the future."

I tend to believe that one of the reasons the analysis cannot find well the "tainted" money simply because the percentage of it falls under the test precision error, i.e. there's not enough volume of bitcoin that went to known "criminal" sites. And since most criminals don't know about bitcoin and probably those who know do hold too.. I don't see the percentages improve too fast.

Quote from: buwaytress on August 14, 2021, 04:29:53 AM

A whistleblower at Chainalytics also claimed their software was actually pretty shite. One suspects they're really not very good at detecting obfuscations.

I expect they (also) use AI for detection. And in order to train that AI... you do need huge quantity of valid data (tainted transactions). And they just don't have that.

SFR10

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 14, 2021, 10:18:32 AM

If anyone is interested in checking it out, the onion link is here: pdcdvggsz5vhzbtxqn2rh27qovzga4pnrygya4ossewu64dqh2tvhsyd.onion

Thank you for providing that link ^{[for some reason I couldn't find it earlier]}.

Found a "link" with a bit more information:

By the look of things, Antinalysis is using the "AMLBot's API" and they're actually a reseller for "Crystal Blockchain".
^{- Fun fact: AMLBot is cheaper than Antinalysis.}

o_e_l_e_o

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If anyone is interested in checking it out, the onion link is here: pdcdvggsz5vhzbtxqn2rh27qovzga4pnrygya4ossewu64dqh2tvhsyd.onion

You must first purchase "tokens" using Monero. Tokens range from $1.20 to $3.00, depending on how many you are buying. Each token provides a lookup on one address. Most interestingly, you can see a full example analysis here: http://pdcdvggsz5vhzbtxqn2rh27qovzga4pnrygya4ossewu64dqh2tvhsyd.onion/example

It seems that they simply trace back all the coins in the address you give them until they arrive at an address which is known to be linked to one of their categories - Darknet markets, scam or thefts, exchanges, gambling sites, ATMs, payment processors, etc.

cr1776

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The concept of "clean" coins itself is nonsense. Who decides what is "criminal" and where?

It is a tool of authoritarian control freaks who hate liberty.

buwaytress

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Original story on BBC has such a clickbait title it's laughable so I put that instead, paraphrasing: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58176113

There's been a number of bots and software coming up over the past 2 years. I suppose once the guys like Elliptic (who is the source of the story) and Chainalysis all started working for regulators, there are others also now trying to come up with competing software. So this is definitely NOT the first service as claimed by Elliptic -- perhaps just one that's come to light, though until I try it myself, it could be, judging from the screenshots, the most advanced.

Quote

"It actually wasn't very good at identifying links to criminal sites. However, it will inevitably improve over time. So I think this is going to be a significant capability for criminals and money launderers in the future."

A whistleblower at Chainalytics also claimed their software was actually pretty shite. One suspects they're really not very good at detecting obfuscations.

At least one I've personally tried from users advertising on this forum, also not very good at all, but I've seen more on Telegram being advertised. Think they'll ever catch up?

Topic: [2021-14-08] Elliptic discovers site that checks how "clean" digital coins are (Read 158 times)