Topic: [2022-10-19] Europe to ban crypto mining this winter (Read 500 times)

The thing is that in general, states do not need cryptocurrency. In difficult periods that their economy is going through, they cannot fully regulate financial flows within their country due to the spread of cryptocurrency, because cryptocurrency knows no borders and is difficult to regulate. In Europe, there are now problems with energy due to Russia's military aggression against Ukraine and the sanctions imposed in response to Russia. Therefore, it is not a problem for states to choose whether to restrict cryptocurrency mining, or any other activity of their citizens, when deciding whether to take measures to reduce energy consumption. The choice will always fall on cryptocurrency.

We have had smart meters here for years.

I guess a lot depends on how much you electric really use vs other people.

Around here, you have some people [That would be me and Julie] in a small condo using more power then 4 people in a midsize house.
Admittedly we are energy hogs. But, our gas use is very very low. So overall it kind of balances out.

Taking away the converted S9 space heaters I was using, I still have a bunch of PCs, a file server, enough wireless equipment to talk to aliens from another galaxy, use the electric kettle and coffee maker a lot, still have not gotten around to replacing the old non efficient refrigerator and so on.

The family of 4 has 2 kids in school all day who then have after school activities and 2 parents that work. So they don't use a lot of power during the day and are using gas to heat the whole house when they get home. Once again, I was using an S9 to heat the back room and another one in the front room. So no gas there. We eat out a lot / get takeout so no cooking gas use, but microwave those leftovers......

If you are declaring the BTC mining income then it's another story.

Also, if you are running 3 S19 Pro units it's going to be a different then 1 underclocked miner pulling 2000w
At 2000W it's impossible to say you are running a miner vs. leaving on the TV all day with a 750 watt space heater and have not replaced old bulbs with LEDs At 10kW yeah, something is up.

At least around here, most home miners are small 1 possibly 2 miner setups. So could probably fly well under the view of most utilities.

-Dave

This is impossible and it goes against the laws of thermodynamics.

A 300W GPU will produce the same heat as a 300W ASIC.
That electricity you feed both of them has to either go somewhere or transform into a different form of energy, in this case, heat. Asics and GPU are not different from each other when it comes to the principle of working, both have chips, both have transistors, and both have electricity running through them.

So, 4 Gpus rated 250W running at full throttle will create as much heat as 1 1KW Asic, and just as much as 1KW heater, with a tiny fraction of those in under the 1% going to be other kinds of energy, like light for example, as light bulbs did.


They produced less heat because you underlock them so they would also draw in less energy.
You can do the same for Asics, they all have this feature, but if you do in order to limit consumption you will also limit the heat released by the same percentage.
There is no way you can have two GPUs with different power consumption produce the same heat or the other way around, one producing more heat but with the same power draw.

As a competitive gamer ^[somewhat] and a former miner, I do know for a fact that "sometimes" my GPU produces more heat in comparison with what I was getting back in the day for mining... It's also worth noting that I was using MSI Afterburner to slightly underclock my GPUs for the latter ^{[I'm doing exactly the opposite of it for gaming (to get the most out of it)]}. To answer your main question, I've never played continuously ^[24/7] and I'm pretty sure that's also the case with most gamers out there and that's the main reason why they can easily distinguish one from the other.

Update:
You're right... I should've been clearer that I was referring to my case only and not to everything in general ^{[my bad]}.

One of the by products of Bitcoin and Crypto mining is heat...

One of my friends in Europe are mining Alt coins with his GPU mining rig and the excess heat is used to heat his house. I know ASICS are not generating as much heat, but GPUs are running quite hot.... when you have a bunch of them.

What is the difference between a gamer that are running a massive gaming rig and a smaller Crypto miner running a GPU rig to mine Alt coins? (At least the heat from the mining rig are being used for something and it's paying for other expenses) 

Will they ban Gamers too, because they are using the same GPU's.

our mine has over 1000 panels of solar feeding it.

btc is how it got built.

For a lot of us in Europe, they can. See my post earlier.

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Looking to see if there is any news about this directive, I have observed at least a few people who are very enthusiastic, the environmentalists!
They even want to extend this limitation to the summer months, so forever.

Bad news for bitcoiners, apparently, it is not only a matter of trying to reduce the energy problem we are experiencing in Europe either, but it is also part of the process to reach the 1.5C Paris climate goal
Reminder, when Europe wanted to totally ban PoW cryptocurrency mining and allow PoS only? Look like, it's not their first attempt to stop the mining industry...

It was under the Markets in Crypto Assets (MiCA) framework (and the EU Parliament voted against it) but there is nowadays another opportunity under the energy crisis and the 1.5C Paris climate goal.

What could help us? The commercial competition with the USA started, to be as attractive as possible, knowing that the Americans are already one step ahead regarding mining since Biden signed a landmark executive order to ‘develop and use’ cryptocurrencies

Now adding a truth from someone


Interesting data from the Bitcoin Mining Council:
- BTC mining consumes 3.2% of the electrical system energy wasted in the USA.
- Bitcoin mining energy use is 0.142% compared to the world's total energy.
- 59% of miners use sustainable power (Brazil uses just over 2% renewable electricity).

CMIIW, but by saying "small home", I think you were referring to those who live in apartments and the answer to your question depends on a few things... If you happen to be living in one, you shouldn't underestimate the power of your neighbors ^{[nothing stops them from reporting you, especially in apartments that have both thin walls and bad flooring (apart from the noise issues, there are also vibration issues and the one who lives beneath your mining room, might feel some of it)]}!

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^{You might want to also refer to what @LeGaulois and @stompix posted with regard to overconsumption and continuous activities!}

Small home miner they don't know and probably can't find out.
Larger home miner, they probably will not know what you are doing but if everyone else in your area uses X power and you use 2X power they know you are doing something.
If they care it's another matter.

It's the big data centers that are using megawatts of power, those are the targets, but as I said it's just because for the most part it's a easy target.
Can't go after Netflix / Amazon / Apple and so on for running older more power hungry equipment. Miners well they are simple to go after.

-Dave

but how the government now if I mining cryptocurrency, I mean if i small home maybe they probably don't know what i am doing and if i am large player maybe they registered their company as data center right?

Or miner manufacturers go back to making miners that don't look like miners:



Looks like a normal 2U server to me :-)

But on a serious note, it's easy to target miners. But looking at what I see in data centers here in the US, you could probably make more of an electrical impact by forcing all business over a certain size or or with more then a certain amount of server / router equipment to upgrade to newer more efficient servers / routers / whatever.

But, since that would cost mainstream businesses money we all know that is not going to happen. At least not in our lifetime.
Lets just pick on these newfangled miner people with their oddball internet money stuff.

-Dave

Yes, but that's the exact reason I mentioned the numbers.
Of course, nobody can force every citizen in the EU to stop stealing electricity for any kind of activity, nobody can ban everyone running an Appolo miner that draws just 200w, and there will be people who will still avoid this ban even with ASIC miners.

For example, in my case, it would be easy to hide one or two ASICs in the farm run by a family just as I run a few now completely legally and paying my bill, but in all these cases where somebody can hide a few miners, the overall number won't matter compared to the actual hashrate. It's like you sharing movies with your friends would kill netflix, and we know how that went.

@stompix. However, our point of view should not be to consider this ability as something very much similar to a scandal even if the government appears to declare this as a scandal. This ability to take and provide for the bitcoin hashrate is in reality a representation of the unenforceability of their auhtority. If my speculation that there are miners in China who remain to participate in mining bitcoin through stolen electricity, this would be the highest representation of my argument.

The whole hash rate that you might feed with staling electricity, just for the sake of numbers, let's say 5%, 15 Exashah, the best gear on the market, S19XP, 100k machines needed, 300MW or a nuclear reactor worth of electricity staling before anything else will not help is a bit when compared to the scandals and the negative representation in the media about the thieves getting caught.

Again, this can't be done by small individuals, with larger it's becoming way risky and if we talk about huge farms that have some shady deals with governments, well, how is that helping decentralization at all when they are killing small legit home miners with their free electricity?

Saving electricity this winter by European countries is another of the consequences of the war unleashed by Russia on the territory of Ukraine and the refusal of Russian oil and gas supplies. However, this is a temporary measure. But for Russia, the negative effect will be much stronger, and most importantly, for a very long term. Therefore, it is quite possible that cryptocurrency mining in Europe will be banned for some time. The situation will return to normal and restrictions on cryptocurrencies will be lifted.

It appears my argument has been misunderstood. Let me change my statement to the potential that any person can facilitate something to steal electricity and use this to mine a proof of work cryptocoin is good for the coin's network security and decentralization. This causes their laws to be unenforceable inside their own jurisdictions and without depending on more friendlier politicians.

I always told people that mining operations at home can't be stealthy, not in western countries and not in a lot of Asian countries also.
The average consumption per household in EU is 3700 KWh a year, a 3kw miner, will use 26,280 a year, that's twice the consumption in US who is on another level, and that's just one.

Plus, the smart meter thing, the problem with a miner is that it goes on 24/7, there is no household anywhere on this planet that night after night after night will have this flat consumption, even with air conditioning you still have fluctuations, they top they go faster to keep temperature they shut down, but with a miner, you will have this 3kw (at least) extra all the time.


I seriously doubt right now that EU has more than 2-3% of the global hashrate, and a quick reminder for others, Norway and Iceland are not in the EU.

@bbc.reporter

Stealing electricity is when you use the energy of someone else, or do not pay your. But using your electricity while you're not allowed is something else. I'm not sure if it could be considered stealing.

If we consider a miner as an individual, yes sure he could continue to mine bitcoin at home and stay unnoticed but if a government really wants to stop mining, it could be quite easy to do so.
For example, there are plenty of people who have been caught growing cannabis in their homes.
And it's easy to find out. If you have two people in your household and you consume as much as a household of six people, then you are doing something wrong at home.
And it's easier nowadays for countries (like mine) where we now have smart electricity meters (even for the water)

If we consider a miner a company, it's even easier. Since the company is supposed to be closed (no activity so you close the company). A bit like during the lockdowns with covid.
If a company declares its monthly income to pay taxes, then it has had an activity. How can it carry out its activity as it is not supposed to use electricity?

Anyway, if you think twice about this European directive, it will depend on the willingness of European countries to really limit energy consumption. I mean, there will certainly be several countries that will say well fuck, there are more important things to worry about and mining is insignificant

In the long term, nothing illegal can be good for Bitcoin, and this includes electricity theft, which sooner or later will be discovered, at least in countries that can detect such things very quickly and effectively. The security of Bitcoin will not be threatened if the EU passes such a law, but the bigger problem will be that it will send a message to some other countries that may be thinking of doing the same.

Agreed. In America, the problem caused by their government is they limited the drilling of oil and production of fossil fuel based sources of fuel. If the government was serious about solving this problem they should lift the limit and allow their oil producers to drill more. There are some articles that mentioned that the oil reserves of America is decreasing and more reduction might force them to ration fuel.

@cr1776. They can ban but they cannot enforce the ban. Miners can steal electricity and mine illegally. This will be very good for the decentralization and security of bitcoin.

Good luck banning it for many people, but with the projected cost of power, that alone may solve the issue.  This is, however, the camel's nose under the tent.

Regarding this:


And yet it still doesn't match the format in the sticky - brackets are not included:

POST FORMAT: YYYY-MM-DD SITE - HEADLINE

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/post-format-yyyy-mm-dd-site-headline-246823

Government created problems, government created solutions.

If the free market could just do it's thing for energy, it would all get sorted. If the free market could determine who is willing to pay what for electricity, it would be allocated most efficiently this way.

Such an insane concept in today's world.

Agreed. I have bookmarked your post as a reference on where I have heard this speculation first hehehe. In any case, creating a department where they can standardise an industry is giving them the power to control a whole industry. They will certainly make it sure that bitcoin will not pass their energy efficiency label.

This will be dangerous for users because the proof of work cryptcoins that might pass will be having the risk of 51% attacks. I will be with the maximalists for this argument hehe.

I don't know how it is in other EU countries, but I know that in my country some cities introduce such reductions in principle that every other light fixture is turned off, which again led to some complaining that the streets have become too dark. It's hard to please people, because they will always find a reason to complain - like some people in my neighborhood who never turn off the lights, and then complain that they have high electricity bills.

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Are there any mining rigs that are quiet or relatively quiet? I live in the belief that BTC mining is very noisy, so it is not suitable to be located in the premises where we live. Perhaps the solution is a sound-insulated room from which warm air would then be brought to the rooms we want to heat. A few years ago someone invented something similar in Russia, I remember we discussed it on the forum.

Judging by how they used load shedding in the sentence, I believe it's just a temporary precaution against the situation in question and not something that'd completely halt mining operations, so perhaps it's not as bad as it looks ^{[having said that, there'll be collateral damages for sure]}.

Here you go

@bittraffic. What some of the more venturous miners will certainly do is mine illegally using stolen electricity hehe. I agree that this is a crime, however, I would argue that for those miners who are prepared to do this is good for bitcoin and the decentralization of bitcoin.

I speculate that it might have started in China already after their ban on cryptomining.

Yes. Can't say renewable energy will be cheap because if it's the only source, it will not be cheap. It must be mandatory also for people who have turbines and solar panels to join the grid. Fight climax change all the way!

This is quite certain to become a reality everywhere including those countries where miners go for cheap electrcity. I have argued about a European ban on mining before and the reaction towards me was not very good as usual hehe. I am also quite certain that much of those people would also say that they expected this news development and it did not need to be said hehehehe.

As you know, as far as we as Europeans are concerned, we are in the middle of an energy crisis, and winter has not even started yet.
Between rising gas, electricity, wood, and other prices, coupled with less electricity production than we need, gas shortage...
Not even sure about having heat at home for the whole winter... or for a very very high price

The European Commission has published a paper on energy policy for the Member States.
And guess what. Crypto mining is on its roadmap among the many electricity restrictions to come.

The document is not exclusively about cryptos. It's about "the plan on digitalising the energy system". But notice point #3 "Does the Action Plan tackle cryptocurrencies."

the Commission strongly requests to lower the electricity consumption of crypto players,... up to stop crypto mining... In another word, shut down your ASICS immediately. (they also want to stop the fiscal measures benefitting miners but that's another matter)


On the other hand, lighting up the streets in the middle of the night when no one is around is not a problem

[moderator's note: fixed date format]