Topic: 21 million is it just a pointless number and nothing to do with scarcity? (Read 401 times)

True with a mention: we also have no bitcoins as coins in our wallet even when we see fancy numbers on the GUI or the command line if you like it best.
We control the private keys via our wallet software, notwithstanding that we could use them in many other forms, and the only thing that matters are these keys that give us access to our UTXOs which are basically staying in the last block of appearance until we decide to move them along by using our private keys and move our coins to another public key which will then control new UTXOs....
etc. etc. etc.
How ingenious is all this?

Oh, one can only hope.

Apparently you missed this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFK9tHzV6WA

In it, your version of "division" is explained rather well.

bitcoins code. and the value in bytes on the blockchain is in satoshis.
yep the blockchain data does not store bitcoins.

its the GUI(graphic user interface) that converts the satoshi data into bucket buzzwords called bitcoin just for simple human visual.
yep a bitcoin is just a bucket term for humans to understand numbers in less significant figures than quadrillion
its also a psychological game where everyone would love to own a 1tonne block of gold even when a 1 tonne single block doesnt exist as a singe block. but only does in words and thoughts

its the simple game
which SOUNDS more scarce. 190k tonnes of gold or 6billion ounces
190000
6000000000

yep well no one has a single tonne block of gold. its always a pile of smaller pieces
so while 190k does sound scarce the reality is that everyone has a supply of gold
yep the device you are viewing this post on has gold in it. its not scarce

the limited supply is not about scarcity. its about a fixed amount to not be inflatable.
think of bitcoin as the asset that will never create more beyond its limit to cause an inflation. then realise this asset has better value store than fiat.

when i think the word bitcoin. i dont think currency unit of measure. i think protocol/codebase/brand. as for the units of measure i think bits(100sat) and sats
it makes no difference to me if its 100000000sats or 1btc. btc is meaningless term as a unit of measure even if i do own many many btc. i prefer to say i own mullions of bits or billions of sats

I see your perspective, but it is not quite accurate. You see satoshis are a subdecimal part of a Bitcoin. It is mathematic rule that a whole can be divided in more parts. 21 million Bitcoin is very scarce for a raising global population of over 7bn.

Satoshi is a good measurement unit for when Bitcoin will get to very big numbers.

Thanks like saying I do not feel as rich holding a single $100 bill vs holding 100 $1 bills.

Applause!
In fact it could be represented like this:
Bitcoin - limited cap, with a possible valuation that can go up to infinity
Dollars - no cap, infinite supply, valuation goes to zero as it moves forward.

How is this so difficult to get?

What sort of scarcity are you talking about? As of now, 1.864 quadrillion Satoshis are in existence and more are being mined every day. For comparison, the M1 supply of US Dollar is estimated at 6.75 trillion USD. Obviously the rate of increase can't be compared. M1 supply for USD increased by almost 50% during 2020, but since BTC is protected against inflation you can't expect a similar increase.

Most people don't understand how division can increase supply.
Here it is.

if Bitcoin can only be divided by 1,
then
21 million BTC / 1= 21 Million BTC  tradable supply, which you could claim scarce
but the problem is the division is not limited

21 million BTC / .5 = 42 Million BTC tradable supply
21 million BTC / .25 = 84 Million BTC  tradable supply
Now lets look at a satoshi 8 places to the right of the decimal
21 million BTC / .00000001 = 2.1 Quadrillion BTC  tradable supply

Now while the number on the left did not change, the total Tradable Supply increases dramatically.
Exchanges have 9 places to the right of the decimal for some trading pairs.
Lightning Network has proposed 12 places to the right of the decimal.

They can inflate the tradable supply units to an unlimited number all the while claiming bitcoin is scarce because the number on the left won't change, but their division number is changing so it is increasing the tradable supply, but they think you are all too stupid to figure it out.

And for the few that brought into the nonsense that division can't increase supply, I suggest you get out an old biology book,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_division


FYI:
Price increasing is not scarcity, in the crypto world it is nothing more than manipulation or market speculation.
Because for Bitcoin to be scarce would mean it performs a function only it can do,
every altcoin out there outperforms bitcoin on transaction capacity and price per fee affordability.
So without some underlying distinctive characteristics Bitcoin can never be scarce as any altcoins can replace it's characteristics.
 

*This will be my last post in btctalk, if people can't recognize the truth, then the consequence of ignoring the truth will be overpowering.*

 

It would be a pointless number if each satoshi is equivalent to 1 USD and it isn't so your point is invalid. A supply cap like the 21 million bitcoin has something to do with scarcity, because if they can't add more into the supply, the lowering of it will only make the price increase which is scarcity.

This one is more accurate, Greg.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BZoKH-hX_o
Why Blockstream Destroyed Bitcoin

For Million$ in fiat of course    
https://blockstream.com/2016/02/02/en-blockstream-new-investors-55-million-series-a/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFK9tHzV6WA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtLEWVu815o

I think the scarcity simply depends on its demand, and how much coins are available to take care of demand ... You know it's scarce when the price goes up due to high demand

Add my sats too then. I will PM you the amount I have :-D
/s

Oh yeah, I will be giving 20% commission of the total sell, so you are going to make more.

In my opinion, in the bitcoin blockchain, Satoshi had a computation of the limit block to reach, which provided enough support for both holders and miners without narrowing the creation space and the scarcity that will greatly affect future universality.  Excessive scarcity will cause bitcoin to lose its usefulness and the miner consumes a lot of resources but the value of the benefit is not guaranteed.  So 21 million seems to have been well thought out.

I mean, what's the problem with that? i'm sure when satoshi first created bitcoin he didn't intend the 21 mln hard cap to increase that sense of scarcity. bitcoin is fractional and everyone knows that but it's still right to say that bitcoin still amounts to 21 mln despite all the smaller units. It's not like the scarcity affects the market so much anyway.

No 21m !

BTC 58k ?

At the end of the day, there is no way we can sufficiently satisfy close-minded Bitcoin critics. They're coming from all sides and they are all too willing to betray their very own criticisms in order to criticize some more.

Bitcoin's supply is only 21 million. It is very limited. Critics say it cannot be a viable currency exactly because of that. Whether Bitcoin adoption has spread all over the world, whether the world's population has reached a hundred billion, and so on, Bitcoin will remain to be 21 million in supply. It cannot, therefore, be used as a global currency.

Now, Bitcoin supporters are patiently explaining that in every BTC there are a hundred million Satoshis just like there are unlimited cents in every dollar, so there must still be enough to cater the rising adoption. And now they are saying that Bitcoin's supply is, therefore, pointless because of that.

Wait a minute, I cannot anymore see a point in their criticism. They're criticizing solely for the sake of criticizing.

When you can buy a pizza and a beer with a Satoshi, Bitcoin has arrived to the general masses.

It is to ask if there will be a time when it will be scarce and that is simply a no. What happens to this question of op is about demand and supply. According to economic terms, a seller will be ready to sell at a particular time and price. The time is operational and capable to further push price up. So you see the worst that can happen is that bitcoin price will keep increase because of the value that will land on it as more demand for it will be made. Bitcoin is broken down into smaller units as satoshi, mbtcs and not just a coin.

While the value is limitless, the number is limited. In contrast, the number of dollars is limitless.

There isn't a limit. 21M is the cap for BTC. In the past people used to buy things like pizza with thousands of BTC but now you can buy the same pizza with 2 mBTC and in the upcoming years we will buy it with 2 Satoshi then 2 mSatoshi and so on.

"Scarce" doesn't mean "rare". It is a term in economics that means that demand always has the potential to exceed supply.

The supply of air on the earth is finite but it is not scarce because there is always more available than is needed. You need some air? Take a breath. And while fresh water is certainly not rare (it falls out of the sky), it is scarce because the supply is exceeded by the potential demand.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/scarcity.asp

One characteristic of a scarce resource is that the supply and demand curves are guaranteed to cross. That is not true for resources that are not scarce.

....But its a limit.
Consider that supply is deflationary and demand is rising,
Try buying some in the near future and you will know about scarcity.

What can we compare it to?
FIAT = unlimited
GOLD = unknown

100 pennies is a dollar, so 100 Satoshis could have been 1 bitcoin. Why did they choose 21 million? To sound scarcer than 21 trillion?

$48,500 for 1 bitcoin or $48,500 for 100 million Satoshis.

They make it sound like it was scarce because it will be during halving season and also when the total 21 million is mine.


No, your calculation is wrong cause a single Satoshi is one hundred millionth of a single bitcoin that's (0.00000001 BTC), so it would be 210,000,000,000,000.00 Satoshi not even Bitcoin dollar cause Satoshi is the unit of Bitcoin just like cent is unit of dollar.

You are talking about the Future of the Future.
It is estimated that the last block will be mined probably at 2140. so it will take more than 120 years to mine the next 3 million Bitcoin.
within the next 10 years, the price will go skyrocket, so it is too early to attempt to make us scared.


A lot can change in the next 100 years, as example:
A big change can happen within this time, we don't know maybe satoshi programmed it.
or
The alternative to electricity may come, or electricity can be obtained at a so-called price,
As a result, miners would be satisfied only with the mining fee.
or
self mining hardware wallet may come
or
something new things [like Lightning network] may come to handle this.

So, it is too early to be scared, before 2140 we all are going to heaven with our profit.

Satoshi decides to give 8 ceros after the point to bitcoin because he has a vision of the future where people can move big amounts of money with satoshis.

But what we have to see now is the fees going down to 100 satoshis. That way bitcoin will go back to normal transactions without having to paying those enormous fees that we have nowadays.

I'll cut it short:
You can see that Bitcoin became quite expensive at 60k USD a piece and we haven't even managed to overtaken some of the biggest private companies in the world. At a total of 2.1 million Bitcoins, how would you be able to afford it? How would you be able to transact? I feel like the lucky 21 is just right.

Satoshi is literally a lower unit of Bitcoin. $1 is equal 100 cents, this does not increase the value of a dollar in any way, it's just a way of representing it in lower units.
If you have a single room to house 10 people, demarcating it into little corners does not solve the the housing problem; little corners does not make a room, 1 Satoshi does not make a Bitcoin.

This doesn't make any sense.

---

This scarcity argument is a tired one and anyone who brings it up doesn't understand how Bitcoin or measurements work.

People or majority do think about 1:1 ratio but we do know that 1 bitcoin is equal to million which would really be that enough and scarcity thing is just on the mindset of those

people who do think off that 1 bitcoin should be the standard on getting rich or owning one will be relevant or significant.Its too early to think about scarcity

because we aren't into that level where we should mind off on how bitcoin to be diversified globally.

I think the scarcity part is only related to owing 1BTC and not the sat, btc only have 21 million aside from the little particles that make it whole and not many people have 1 btc, and if btc where to be shared among 21 million people that makes it scarce since only 21 million people out of the world population will have it, in this scenario, sat does not matter.

I don't get the comparison of one whole bitcoin to sats or mbtcs. It's like you're getting a hundred dollar and denominates it in centavos, ones, and tens. That seems to be the likely of your explanation or question about its limit.

Bitcoin has limited supply and scarce.

 I wont complain if he wants to pay me a buck a sat now.

Not sure if you are complaining or compliment. The best feature that bitcoin has is its decentralization and limited supply.


But right now 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satosh = $48,000 which means you are asking too much. Maybe after a few decades OP will gladly accept it :-D

 Not at all and I will sell you as many as I can for a buck a piece.  Deal?

I watch videos and read websites about Bitcoin and they mention the 21 million limit to make it sound very scarce. But since there are 100 million Satoshi in a Bitcoin it doesn't seem scarce to me.

I mean if it was 2.1 million Bitcoin and 1000 million Satoshi or 210 million Bitcoin and 10 million Satoshi it changes the scarcity push.

There are 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshi, so if 100 Satoshi (or in tradition money standards 100 pennies), that would mean 21,000,000,000,000.00 Bitcoin. 21 Trillion Bitcoin doesn't sound so scarce now does it...