51% attack problem, are there any solutions to it?

pand70

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Quote from: taltamir on December 16, 2013, 11:47:00 PM

Quote from: pand70 on December 16, 2013, 10:51:07 PM

A government has many tools to attack bitcoin if they want. A 51% attack isn't one of those Roll Eyes

I am well aware that it is not the first recourse. But most of those other methods will not completely eliminate it, especially if facing hyper inflation. It would be illegal but it would thrive just like alcohol or drug under various prohibitions.
If such a situation occurs where the currency has already been deemed illegal and is purely an underground thing in a "communist utopia" the a 51% attack might be resorted to simply because there is no defense against it.

One thing that's for sure if they try to pull of such a stunt is that they 'll realize how annoying pre orders are Tongue

taltamir

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Quote from: pand70 on December 16, 2013, 10:51:07 PM

A government has many tools to attack bitcoin if they want. A 51% attack isn't one of those Roll Eyes

I am well aware that it is not the first recourse. But most of those other methods will not completely eliminate it, especially if facing hyper inflation. It would be illegal but it would thrive just like alcohol or drug under various prohibitions.
If such a situation occurs where the currency has already been deemed illegal and is purely an underground thing in a "communist utopia" the a 51% attack might be resorted to simply because there is no defense against it.

Quote from: CoinGeneral on December 16, 2013, 10:58:44 PM

I think the only reason no one has done that is because there are laws against it. If for example it was perfectly legal to do that, then it would have already been done numerous times.

There aren't any laws protecting Bitcoin however and there's a large number of tech savvy users.

a 51% Attack was successfully executed against feathercoin.

CoinGeneral

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The General

Quote from: TheoryOfBitcoin on December 16, 2013, 08:54:15 PM

There is no solution to the 51% attack problem.

However, don't worry as it is difficult to pull off a 51% attack. Like hacking the Federal Reserve.

I think the only reason no one has done that is because there are laws against it. If for example it was perfectly legal to do that, then it would have already been done numerous times.

There aren't any laws protecting Bitcoin however and there's a large number of tech savvy users.

Soros Shorts

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Quote from: TheoryOfBitcoin on December 16, 2013, 09:51:47 PM

E-Gold is different, it was pseudonymous and was used by cyber crminials, DDoSers, pay to hack servers, drugs..

0h

I had an e-Gold account with funds in it that was seized. I filed a claim and the govt. eventually agreed that all my e-gold was legit and figured out an amount in USD that should be refunded to me based on the price of gold at a certain point in time. In fact, in a report released by Rust Consulting (the claims administrator appointed by the government) they conceded that most of the money stored in e-Gold turned out to be legitimate funds.

A couple of months ago they asked for a bank account to which they can wire the money back to me. I have not yet received the money but hopefully I will get it soon.

pand70

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A government has many tools to attack bitcoin if they want. A 51% attack isn't one of those Roll Eyes

taltamir

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Quote from: descarte on December 16, 2013, 10:21:40 PM

Quote from: TheoryOfBitcoin on December 16, 2013, 09:19:25 PM

Ghash and BTCGUILD has a total of more than 51% hashpower.

The government just need to hack these two pools.

They can hack it with a 0day (a vulnerability that is only known to them and not fixed)

this theory is the same as government having the ability to hack any server they want. if they can hack ghash and btcguid, they can hack other pools as well. NSA can already decrypt SSL, they could have cause massive chaos if they want. they could even hack bitcointalk.org and all asic miner's website.

Snowden described a formative experience the situation where they setup an elaborate situation to make a swiss banker drive drunk and be caught, so they could recruit him as an informant that he could deliver secret banking information (which is a big deal in switzerland) to the US government.

The leaked documents show that they have infiltrated a plethora of corporations to introduce bugs into common security standards as well as ensure that weak encryption standards are chosen by international panels (ex, they helped ensure that the weakest of the 3 finalist competing standards was chosen for AES).

I can definitely see them doing something hamfisted or sneaky to the people who own BTCGuild and Ghash. Unlike P2Pool those are centralized guilds

descarte

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Quote from: TheoryOfBitcoin on December 16, 2013, 09:19:25 PM

Ghash and BTCGUILD has a total of more than 51% hashpower.

The government just need to hack these two pools.

They can hack it with a 0day (a vulnerability that is only known to them and not fixed)

this theory is the same as government having the ability to hack any server they want. if they can hack ghash and btcguid, they can hack other pools as well. NSA can already decrypt SSL, they could have cause massive chaos if they want. they could even hack bitcointalk.org and all asic miner's website.

taltamir

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Quote from: TheoryOfBitcoin on December 16, 2013, 09:51:47 PM

E-Gold is different, it was pseudonymous and was used by cyber crminials, DDoSers, pay to hack servers, drugs..

0h

Thank you, I laughed.

TheoryOfBitcoin

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E-Gold is different, it was pseudonymous and was used by cyber crminials, DDoSers, pay to hack servers, drugs..

0h

taltamir

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Quote from: pand70 on December 16, 2013, 09:40:13 PM

Quote from: taltamir on December 16, 2013, 08:52:32 PM

Are there any solutions which prevent a 51% attack from working?

I searched for it and only found old threads where nobody was able to say there is a technical reason why it would be prevented. I am hoping that in the years that passed since those threads were made that the problem was solved...

I think common sense is the biggest protection against a 51% attack. Someone must extremely eccentric to invest that much into bitcoin for a 51% attack and then kill it instead of gaining massive profits Tongue

As I stated before, I do not worry about any individual doing so, I worry about governments. Inflation (aka printing of trash paper money) and their desire for power are the motive.

There are many examples of them doing it before, a recent one being egold but it is certainly not the only one

Also, as I explicitly stated, they don't even have to attempt to destroy it. They could merely be attempting to centralize it and control it and that will destroy what it stands for.

Imagine the any world government had the power print more bitcoins to cover their national debt

pand70

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Quote from: taltamir on December 16, 2013, 08:52:32 PM

Are there any solutions which prevent a 51% attack from working?

I searched for it and only found old threads where nobody was able to say there is a technical reason why it would be prevented. I am hoping that in the years that passed since those threads were made that the problem was solved...

I think common sense is the biggest protection against a 51% attack. Someone must extremely eccentric to invest that much into bitcoin for a 51% attack and then kill it instead of gaining massive profits Tongue

taltamir

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oh, I see now, thank you.

I was just giving examples of some of the obvious methods via which it is possible for the US government to do so if they so desire, not a comprehensive list of every way they can.

At the moment they haven't decided to shut us down, yet. But their history of doing so worries me. Hence my question about the 51% issue

TheoryOfBitcoin

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Ghash and BTCGUILD has a total of more than 51% hashpower.

The government just need to hack these two pools.

They can hack it with a 0day (a vulnerability that is only known to them and not fixed)

taltamir

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Activity: 196

Merit: 100

Quote from: TheoryOfBitcoin on December 16, 2013, 09:09:09 PM

They won't need to they just need to use a 0day on Ghash.io and Btcguild and instant 51% attack.

Can someone explain this to me?

TheoryOfBitcoin

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They won't need to they just need to use a 0day on Ghash.io and Btcguild and instant 51% attack.

taltamir

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Quote from: TheoryOfBitcoin on December 16, 2013, 08:54:15 PM

There is no solution to the 51% attack problem.

However, don't worry as it is difficult to pull off a 51% attack. Like hacking the Federal Reserve.

The fed is the one I am worried about. The US federal government destroyed several alt currencies in the recent past. Such as egold. They even went after companies located outside of the USA in weaker countries which they bullied. And are printing toilet paper, excuse me, dollars like there is no tomorrow.

If the fed sends cops to BFL to seize all the hypothetical next gen ASICs when they are about to ship them... or puts in billions of dollars towards designing their own ASIC and building a massive farm of them, then bitcoin will be ruined.

Not to even mention multiple nations cooperating about it. China, Russia, the USA and European union nations pooling their resources to seize bitcoin. Heck they don't even have to intentionally destroy it, they can just seize it and centralize and use a 51% attack to do so, then it is no different then any other fiat currency

TheoryOfBitcoin

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There is no solution to the 51% attack problem.

However, don't worry as it is difficult to pull off a 51% attack. Like hacking the Federal Reserve.

taltamir

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 100

Are there any solutions which prevent a 51% attack from working?

I searched for it and only found old threads where nobody was able to say there is a technical reason why it would be prevented. I am hoping that in the years that passed since those threads were made that the problem was solved...

Topic: 51% attack problem, are there any solutions to it? (Read 1163 times)