Author

Topic: 51% w/o 51% ?? (Read 1396 times)

sr. member
Activity: 399
Merit: 257
July 23, 2014, 12:07:21 AM
#15
You're not stating anything new or unknown. That's the whole point of Bitcoin -- decentralization. The fact that mining is now gradually converging into a centralized state is not a flaw in the mining process, but rather a direct consequence of miners becoming greedy. This trend will continue until all pool operators decide to limit their hashing capacity. Ghash and everyone who insists on mining there with only profit in their minds are the problem, not Bitcoin or mining.

Sorry but I think I disagree.
Quite on the contrary, I think that the problem with mining centralization can be effectively considered a flaw of the protocol and it has to be resolved somehow.

The greed is something inherent the human being, the man, the miner, the pool operator. Bitcoin must be superior to that.
We cannot just hope that these actors will change their minds and won't be greedy anymore, because it will not happen.
Sometime there is someone with good intentions, like the recent GHash.IO statement, but at all times it could appear a player greedier than the previous one. Also, we should consider that even if greed was totally absent, the problem would still be here because anyone with enought resources could be able to destroy bitcoin for whatever reason.

No, I really think that it should be the protocol itself able to auto-defends and to defeat any threat.


The protocol is open source though, which makes any attempt to completely thwart the effects of human greed simply a delaying deterrent at best. Also, any theoretical principle will always play out differently when applied in the real world, which means that even a perfect protocol will eventually find itself abused and exploited. So the mining process is adequately functional as it is now, in my opinion.

If you want to keep the blockchain as decentralized as possible independent of people's behaviours, then you would need to rewrite a large part of, if not the whole, protocol and make it closed source. That's obviously out of the question. Ergo, it's the miners themselves who have to change.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
July 22, 2014, 10:03:46 PM
#14
If say pool X has 40% of hashing power, then 51% of the remaining 60% is (rounded) 31%

So could 31% of hashing power combined with a successful DoS on pool X pull off a 51% attack?

Depends on how the attack against the 40% pool works.

Are you blocking miners from connecting to the pool to get work?  Ar you blocking the pool from the network so it can't broadcast solved blocks?

If the miners can get work, but the pool can't get transactions or broadcast blocks, the pool will just create empty blocks.  It will build up it's own chain of empty blocks, and since it has 29% more hashing power it will create a longer chain than the attacker.  Once the attack is done and the attacker stops, the pool's chain will get broadcast and will replace the attacker's chain.

If the miners can't get work, then they will switch to some other pool that provides work.  Therefore, the 31% won't be a majority.

legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
July 22, 2014, 01:30:31 PM
#13
This is always a possibility. You could say the same thing if 5 pools with 11% each were to work together to attack the network. This is a non-issue.

Is it a non-issue or is it an issue that people ignore, thus it won't be addressed until it happens, causing a loss of confidence and thus crash of value first?

It would likely be a government that does it, and as bitcoin increases in value and governments lose their control over the flow of money, I think it becomes more likely that it will happen. Especially with the trend towards centralized mining.

It's a huge issue but the community has accepted the fact that we rely on trusting the miners. I've posted about this issue before, about how Bitcoin is not a 'trustless' currency at all. And I'm not saying that it won't function perfectly fine for the foreseeable future, but it's more convenient for people to ignore the issue in general. There is no easy answer really unless the devs could implement a forced p2pool mining system into the the protocol. Which I assume is not possible since it's such an easy answer, is it not?
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
July 22, 2014, 01:11:59 PM
#12
This is always a possibility. You could say the same thing if 5 pools with 11% each were to work together to attack the network. This is a non-issue.

Is it a non-issue or is it an issue that people ignore, thus it won't be addressed until it happens, causing a loss of confidence and thus crash of value first?

It would likely be a government that does it, and as bitcoin increases in value and governments lose their control over the flow of money, I think it becomes more likely that it will happen. Especially with the trend towards centralized mining.
member
Activity: 88
Merit: 10
July 22, 2014, 12:17:21 PM
#11
This is always a possibility. You could say the same thing if 5 pools with 11% each were to work together to attack the network. This is a non-issue.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
July 22, 2014, 12:05:46 PM
#10
Nope, if it was this easy, everyone would do it. Do you think that the miners with large hashrates only mine on a certain pool?
This is why there are options for pool switching, mostly automatic.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
July 22, 2014, 12:04:52 PM
#9
Some time ago, when I read about it, I liked the idea of P2Pool and I thought that soon it would have become the norm.
That never happened and looking at the stats on blockchain.info it's currently just the 1% of total hash rate.

Why a so huge fail?  Huh

Same question here.

Why did P2Pool never become widely used?

It seems like the solution to all these pool hashrate centralization problems. So why is it barely being used?

Because humans are lazy.
hero member
Activity: 907
Merit: 1003
July 22, 2014, 11:55:34 AM
#8
Some time ago, when I read about it, I liked the idea of P2Pool and I thought that soon it would have become the norm.
That never happened and looking at the stats on blockchain.info it's currently just the 1% of total hash rate.

Why a so huge fail?  Huh

Same question here.

Why did P2Pool never become widely used?

It seems like the solution to all these pool hashrate centralization problems. So why is it barely being used?
hero member
Activity: 618
Merit: 500
a clockwork miner
July 22, 2014, 05:19:44 AM
#7
You're not stating anything new or unknown. That's the whole point of Bitcoin -- decentralization. The fact that mining is now gradually converging into a centralized state is not a flaw in the mining process, but rather a direct consequence of miners becoming greedy. This trend will continue until all pool operators decide to limit their hashing capacity. Ghash and everyone who insists on mining there with only profit in their minds are the problem, not Bitcoin or mining.

Sorry but I think I disagree.
Quite on the contrary, I think that the problem with mining centralization can be effectively considered a flaw of the protocol and it has to be resolved somehow.

The greed is something inherent the human being, the man, the miner, the pool operator. Bitcoin must be superior to that.
We cannot just hope that these actors will change their minds and won't be greedy anymore, because it will not happen.
Sometime there is someone with good intentions, like the recent GHash.IO statement, but at all times it could appear a player greedier than the previous one. Also, we should consider that even if greed was totally absent, the problem would still be here because anyone with enought resources could be able to destroy bitcoin for whatever reason.

No, I really think that it should be the protocol itself able to auto-defends and to defeat any threat.
sr. member
Activity: 399
Merit: 257
July 22, 2014, 04:07:33 AM
#6
I'm thinking PoW really needs decentralized mining to truly be safe.

You're not stating anything new or unknown. That's the whole point of Bitcoin -- decentralization. The fact that mining is now gradually converging into a centralized state is not a flaw in the mining process, but rather a direct consequence of miners becoming greedy. This trend will continue until all pool operators decide to limit their hashing capacity. Ghash and everyone who insists on mining there with only profit in their minds are the problem, not Bitcoin or mining.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1029
July 22, 2014, 03:22:47 AM
#5
I'm thinking PoW really needs decentralized mining to truly be safe.

You know, that's like saying: "We need to stop all the wars in the world and cure all diseases". Easier said than done.
hero member
Activity: 618
Merit: 500
a clockwork miner
July 22, 2014, 01:32:49 AM
#4
I'm thinking PoW really needs decentralized mining to truly be safe.

Decentralization is the key, but I think I'm stating the obvious here.

Some time ago, when I read about it, I liked the idea of P2Pool and I thought that soon it would have become the norm.
That never happened and looking at the stats on blockchain.info it's currently just the 1% of total hash rate.

Why a so huge fail?  Huh
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
July 22, 2014, 12:31:11 AM
#3
I'm thinking PoW really needs decentralized mining to truly be safe.
hero member
Activity: 743
Merit: 502
July 21, 2014, 11:56:06 PM
#2
so, then another pool can take down the 31% pool with 34.5 % hashing power of the 31% of the original 100% hashrate.

huh
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
July 21, 2014, 11:37:10 PM
#1
If say pool X has 40% of hashing power, then 51% of the remaining 60% is (rounded) 31%

So could 31% of hashing power combined with a successful DoS on pool X pull off a 51% attack?

Granted the block time would be increased during the attack but this seems like a danger of the ASIC pools that have taken over bitcoin mining.
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