Topic: A (Read 6204 times)

Goat doesn't appear to be banned anymore

no one. forget.

What happened here? Does anyone have an update?

Hmm Goat, I wonder what you did to get banned? 

Oh, crap. Some more of the "I was advised" and "I can't explain" rhetoric that seems to have gotten popular lately.

For now I'm in favour of waiting, by the way. If the other issuers get handed an acceptable solution and you don't, well, then it's time to sue.

I love the OP of this thread. Very informative and great details.

Goat, fucking awesome job! "PERPETUAL"...lol....

Nicely put. 

Am I not making myself clear? I'm a bit irritated because of the thread renaming and the edited original post. Don't see a reason for both. :-)

Eh?

I DO put the blame squarely on GLBSE, but when you change the thread title to "A" (which is a bit misleading and makes it really hard to find) and delete the "contract" in the OP you're not just waiting for additional info but shirking responsibility. The measures I proposed would go a long way to restore confidence, at least for me. Why don't you just publish those numbers? At least answer this: do you calculate dividends or do you think it not worth the effort as you don't intend or expect to ever pay out?

Hm. With the thread title changed to suit a, let's say, minimalist aethetic and the OP gone, I have a request: as I own a foolishly big amount of TYGRR.BOND-A shares I'd feel much better if you'd publish the dividends somewhere, preferably a website (http://tygrr.com maybe?). Gigamining's doing this as well, and it wouldn't need a lot of effort: http://gigamining.com/

You could also publish the bitcoin address where you send the dividends to, so we can be sure you've got the funds to pay.

At the moment you're in a better position than other issuers, as you've got some information at least as to who owns what. I still have my GLBSE claim code, so if no information ever comes from GLBSE I'd like to have your confirmation that you're, well, not going to "just keep the BTC and walk away."

Otherwise these changes to the thread look a bit fishy.

Thank you.

I guess bitcoin addresses are particularly suitable for this then, since GLBSE can issue new codes (addresses) to people without knowing the private keys to those codes.

-MarkM-

That's half the solution. That's still insufficient because there can still be conflicting claims by two people each of which have the same private key. Each can swear that GLBSE gave that code to them and they gave it to nobody. You also need a two-phase claim scheme that requires everyone to submit a claim before any claims are honored. (With GLBSE taking the responsibility to resolve any disputes, presumably by issuing another claim code through the GLBSE account.)

Yes but presumably not violating customer privacy by revealing a bitcoin address they use for some purpose other than as one to give to new host of assets in the event assets have to move to another venue. Especially not revealing an address they actually used for coins.

Similar with PGP: a PGP key given for this purpose, not some other key that might tie them to some other activities they might not wish owners of assets to learn they are connected with.

-MarkM-

You could do this easily through bitcon signing.

Maybe Nefario should have used user-provided "codes" to which the users have the private keys, such as, for example, bitcoin addresses or PGP pubkeys provided by the users for this kind of purpose? Then they could prove they are the holder of the privkeys to that code?

-MarkM-

But Goat is...

Psy, you're not helping.

^^^ There's your contract.


You could start by giving Nefario a BTC address where he would send the BTC you say is being kept away from you.
After you do that I'll give you more details. But you'll have to pay. This little glimpse was provided cost free, more details will need to be paid up front as you clearly can't be trusted.

Stop hiding behind others, pussy.
Take responsibility for your own actions once and for all.

Goat was delisted because of events having to do with the GLBSE scam asset and his reaction to Nefario's breach of an offer he relied on. (The full issue is complicated. Please don't read that as placing the blame on either of them.) I don't believe the PPTs, or any of Goat's listings, were part of the issue.

This was about the GLBSE scam asset? Or was Goat delisted because of Pirate involvement?

You make it sound like the delisting was part of a personal dispute. What's the official story?

Yes I agree. But that doesn't preclude a reasonable agreement between Goat and the former share holders. He could decide to honor the claim codes for continued payment or make a buy back offer, if we can work out a secure way to compile a list. Of course former share holders would need to agree to drop their original claims via GLBSE.

And the request to see the original contract is reasonable too.

Sure, but his responsibility is now only to himself. GLBSE's customers agreed to allow GLBSE to decide who holds the asset -- the other party to the contract is whoever GLBSE says it is. GLBSE has stated that they returned those assets to Goat and in exchange gave their customers claim codes. Goat has not accepted any obligation to honor these claim codes. Goat is now the holder of those assets, since GLBSE gave them back to him, and GLBSE's customers have only claim codes issued by GLBSE.

Goat only listed securities and never issued bearer bonds. GLBSE had no authority to issue bearer bonds redeemable by Goat. So it cannot be that the holder of those assets is whoever possesses the claim codes.

Goat, as GLBSE has even rendered the contract inaccessible, can you please repost it here?

Let's not forget GLBSE has also removed my (a customer's) access to the contract provided solely through GLBSE facilities so far. Further it has not given me anything but a code -- and no communication channel to use it. That leaves customers totally lacking of secure and verifyable information, apart from a 3rd party forum inhabited by the asset issuer (no verification), who already declared this channel insecure.

Clearly GLBSE has harmed customers holding any of the delisted shares, for a personal spat with an asset issuer.
And customers are used as leverage in this fight. That's not just highly unprofessional, it is downright offensive.

Maybe it is illegal too, I see a case of causing intentional harm by abandoning paying (fees) customers. I have only 10 BTC in limbo, but I feel pissed enough to maybe talk it over with a lawyerly friend.

While it is true Goat is still responsible to hold to the asset contract, GLBSE by common sense is responsible to provide the trading platform, and facilitate a reasonably communication channel and orderly delisting process, if any should be necessary at all.

Also, while I do take responsibility for how I spend my BTC I still find it ironic that the only GLBSE-investment that ever made me any money was my short time in a Pirate-passthrough. That's my fault, but getting a big portion of my investment locked out of GLBSE without any warning is not.

I have to say, I'm pretty pissed about this. While Goat obviously doesn't care very much about his investors (or he would at least TRY to reassure us that he won't just keep our BTC and pout), I think the blame lands clearly on GLBSE.

I bought these bonds under the assumption that I would be able to trade them with other market participants, even if there was so little of a market to begin with. Now I can't even try to sell them back to Goat as there is no market price.


How? When? To whom? I don't read EVERYTHING, how was I supposed to know about your personal feuds? And how come this mining bond is a "liability" while others aren't? How come HYIP assets aren't? How come frickin' OBSI.HRPT isn't?

What other assets are about to be delisted? Do I need to sell all GIGAMINING shares or risk them becoming worthless overnight? There needs to be more transparency here or I don't feel informed enough to trade on this platform.

So this means that if someone gives Goat a claim code that has already been used, he must honor it anyway, otherwise he will be branded a scammer. There's no way he can prove he actually issued the stock already based on the same claim code. And there's no way he can hold all the claims and issue at the same time because he has no way to contact claim code holders to arrange such a schedule.

How long should he wait? He has no way to contact claim code holders to work out a schedule. Do you see how ridiculous this is?

And the mechanism for resolving those is ...? What?

In other words, GLBSE has abandoned their customers and unilaterally imposed a fundamentally broken and insecure claim code scheme on them. Yet they assume no liability whatsoever for the damages that will result from its obvious flaws and expect Goat to do so at his own risk. GLBSE had no right to convert a listed security into a bearer bond with no permission from either the issuer of that security or the holders of that security. In effect, GLBSE issued bearer bonds it now expects Goat to redeem in the absence of any agreement to that issue such bonds, any agreed upon scheme for redeeming them, or even any imaginable redemption scheme!

Congratulations, GLBSE. You are now on my list of companies that will make up new rules any time they feel like regardless of the consequences to their customers. On the bright side, you have lots of company.

He is of course... he should have crossed out the code with a #2 pencil to avoid double-crediting. And, he should work quickly to get as many people linked up to their claim codes as possible, as the longer he drags this out, the worse it gets.He verifies it by comparing against the list. His trust issues, aren't relevant. He is manufacturing this controversy. As long as the codes and quantities people submit, match up with the list, I don't see what the problem is. As asset-holders, as this typical-goat thing drags on, he would be better off worrying about his own trust, instead of this attempt to cause Nefario and GLBSE harm the way he's doing.GLBSE hasn't abandoned their customers. Goat and his issues have been evicted. This is a mess of Goat's creation. When he dragged their dispute out into the public to drag it through the mud, for the sole purpose of hurting Nefario and GLBSE, he earned the eviction.

If he refuses to honor the claim codes, then he deserves to be branded a scammer, for abandoning his fiduciary duty to his shareholders.

If he honors them, and he starts getting competing claims, which I don't see happening unless he let his computer get compromised, or someone's account on GLBSE got hacked, then if he was smart (which I am no longer sure about), he would hold onto those until the issue is resolved.

At this point, the only thing he should be doing, is be taking people's claim codes, along with their contact information, and building up his asset-holder list. Then, if duplicate claims are submitted, then those shares are put on hold until the dispute has been resolved... preferably privately, and not dragged through the forum...

Nobody has any right to expect any further cooperation from GLBSE, as they are no longer involved in managing Goat's issues. Goat has the share breakdowns with the claim codes, and all of the asset-holders can obtain their claim codes through the portfolio page. Nefario has met his duty at this point, and is no longer involved.

-- Smoov

What does Goat do if he someone presents him one of those codes and then he receives a later claim using the same code that is accompanied by massive evidence documenting that that particular person held the security? Who is assuming this liability?

How can Goat verify that? He is essentially being compelled to accept a representation from a party he has little reason to trust.

In other words, GLBSE has abandoned their customers.

How does Goat verify this? Or does he have to take your word for it?

In other words, GLBSE has abandoned their customers. Goat is in a no win situation. If he refuses to honor the claim codes, he will be branded a scammer. If he agrees to honor the claim codes, he may encounter impossible situations with competing claims. Meanwhile, the customers who relied on GLBSE are in the cold as there appears to be little sign of cooperation -- frankly, from either side.

Oh, he understands, but is being deliberately obtuse, so he can continue trying to fan up this 'controversy' to try and damage Nefario and GLBSE over the fake shares he wanted Nefario to buy from him, at the price he wanted.

Now he's in tantrum-mode.

-- Smoov

This. He just needs to setup an asset on cryptostocks that has the same number of shares as the asset on glbse and then redeem peoples codes by transferring shares. I dont get why he cant understand or is refusing to look after his shit.

Ok, since you haven't been paying attention I'll walk you through it.

Goat was sent a list of claim codes, and the # of shares associated with those codes. That alone, is all he needs, to know the breakdown of the shares.

On your portfolio page, the TYGRR assets now show "Delisted", with a "Click here for info." link.

On the info page, you will find the # of shares you had at the time of the delisting, your claim code, which will match the entry on the list Goat now has.

You are also supplied with the username of the asset issuer, as well as the contact email address that was on file.

Any further dealings with the issue, are no longer being facilitated by GLBSE, and you now have to deal with Goat directly, when trading your shares, and collecting dividends.

Any dividends earned by shares that haven't been claimed yet, should be set aside, preferably with an escrow, so when those shares are claimed, the dividends they have earned, can be distributed to the proper owner of those shares.

Everyone has a unique claim code.

GLBSE continues to keep the info available about how many shares you had at the time trading of those issues stopped, for your benefit, but GLBSE no longer handles the accounting for Goat.

Goat now administers his issues personally, unless he gets the issues re-listed at another exchange, at which point the claim codes will allow him to get the shares allocated to the proper asset-holder's account at the new exchange, if the asset-holder has an account there.

-- Smoov

*sigh
Thats beside the point I made.

You mean GLBSE's customers, right? Goat doesn't even have any idea who they are.

Hardly...Then you would be abandoning your duty to your asset-holders.No, it wouldn't be like that at all, and why would people take it to GLBSE to collect BTC? Your issue isn't listed there anymore.

GLBSE has nothing else to do with your issues, other than to give the asset-holders the claim codes linked to the asset counts on your list, at the time of delisting.

-- Smoov

The fact is Goat wants to remain an anonymous entity because he doesnt want to be held personally responsible for his securities if they fail.

The days of anonymous entities listing shares on glbse is effectively over, you have been told this quite clearly.

Why do you not want your asset holders knowing who you are? Do you have something to hide or are you worried that ll the people who have lost money investing in you will hold you responsible ?

Oh, nice, now you pretend that I go around hiding my posts and deleting them.

I haven't deleted a single post in my life, and everything I said, I stand behind.

I'll say it all again in other venues if you wish, just to get it all well distributed if you like.

In fact, how about I make up some hardcopy for you while I'm at it?

What kind of font do you like?

Get a grip, Goat...

-- Smoov

I'll post where I please, tyvm, and since this is where the conversation I'm replying to is happening, this is where I'm replying.

There is nothing wrong with the system, and I understand it perfectly, as do you.

The only difference is, I'm not pretending that I don't understand it.

You brought this situation on yourself, and now you have to manage your own asset-holder lists and dividends, manually. When things go wrong, who will we blame? You of course. You lost your scapegoat. You no longer have someone else managing it for you.

You and I already tossed this around in IRC and you're still perpetuating this fiction that Nefario is  holding your remaining BTC balance hostage, and that all of the assets are still on GLBSE, which are untrue.

You won't supply an address to have your remaining BTC balance sent to, so the only person preventing you from reclaiming your remaining BTC, is you.

GLBSE never had possession of the assets of your listings. All it did, was keep track of who owned what, and facilitated trading the shares between the people who wanted to buy or sell them, but the exchange never owned or had possession of them.

You have enough information to match up asset-holders to the quantities on the list you were sent, and just because you aren't happy with the way the list was sent to you, is immaterial.

Now quit being a whiney bitch, man up, and handle your business, and knock it off with this stupid-act you're playing, trying to start a public brawl.

If you had kept your dispute with Nefario private, in PM, maybe with a 3rd party acting as a mediator, you may have ended up with a better result, but this isn't your M.O.

You are your own worst enemy in this, and brought this all upon yourself.

Sorry, Goat, but you over-played your hand this time.

-- Smoov

You have been provided with all you need to migrate to a new exchange. You cant blame glbse for your laziness in failing to do so.

All he has to do is setup a google contact form and people can paste their code in and some contact details,including dividend address. Not that hard really.

Yep... could end up in disaster, certainly...

However, since GLBSE doesn't manage your asset-holder lists for you anymore, there is no longer someone else to blame and use as a scapegoat, so any disaster from this point forward will be your own fault, and yours alone.

-- Smoov

I agree that it could have been handled better -- more securely. But that post simply suggests that there could be problems. Anyway, it seems pretty simple to me, though it is a big hassle for Goat and his shareholders.

This is misinformation. Goat is trying to confuse his customers, hoping they get angry at GLBSE. The fact is that Goat holds your shares. The claim code is used by Goat to verify that you are the owner of the shares.

GLBSE has given shareholders a claim code that they are suppose to give to Goat so that he can track shareholders himself. Goat has a list of claim codes and the number of shares associated with each code. Shareholders should contact Goat with the claim code and contact information. The result of this is that shareholders can only trade shares with Goat until he lists the shares on another exchange. Once he has moved to another exchange, shareholders can trade with others again.

Holy crap, I have no idea what's going on here. 

So, Goat, should I contact you with my claim code? Is there a plan?

That's between you and Goat, and I withold I final judgement, but communication with GLBSE customers has been sadly lacking. If the asset violated some code of conduct I expected this would have been noted on the share listing, together with a deadline for remedy. But now asset holders were left in the dark with no information. This is not just Goat's problem, it reflects negatively on GLBSE too.

Also the delisting transaction (removal of my shares from my account) is not found in the history. I regard the CSV history as a major feature of GLBSE, but this and an earlier retcon seriously devalue it, and trust in GLBSE in general.

Nefario, running a business, you need more focus on your customers needs and wants.

The asset has not been voided. It has been delisted from GLBSE.

Goat is still under obligation to fulfill his contract with the asset holder

To claim your asset, contact Goat and give him your claim code, he has a list of all codes and how many of the asset they hold.

I have explained in numerous threads why this has been delisted.

What's up with this, it is marked as delisted on GLBSE and I see a strange claims code in my portfolio?

If the current blockexplorer average interval between blocks is to be believed, then difficulty changes every 12.6 days:
http://blockexplorer.com/q/interval

So, stochastically.com puts the Div Yield at 4.52%. That's 2.64% for 7 days. By comparison, Gigamining currently has 1.67%, Bitbond 1.81%. Right? I really like this asset, but the ROI calculation is a PITA. Math is hard. I shouldn't do investing. :-)

http://www.stochastically.com

So, am I the only one buying these?

0.008 BTC dividend per share (and shares went for 0.15 BTC) isn't too shabby. Even when the "payout  after difficulty change"-system is taken into account.

Is my math completely off on this? 

Looks like the guy overreacted a bit. Is it written somewhere that the share issuer has to buy back bonds ? I don't think so.

Note: A complaint that Goat isn't buying back bonds upon request has been moved here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/re-glbse-tygrrbond-a-1mhs-pps-perpetual-bonds-83722

Please consider reading the above thread before investing.
Sorry Goat, but it wouldn't be fair to the investors if I didn't add this disclaimer

Divs?

Been quiet in here.  Are you planning on releasing the rest of the shares?  Preferably before the next difficulty change?

What's the exact starting time + date for these shares? Will you only issue more shares in the future at difficulty changes or how else will you handle selling more shares during a 2016 blocks period?

What's the buyback price if the asset was not traded in the prior 168 hours?

Do you actually HAVE this hash rate or is this a purely virtual asset (paying out as if it was mined)?

Why are there 500k bonds? Are you going to run 500Gh?

Will this be listed on the GLBSE?

Cool. I'll buy some.

A