A case to exclude Hungary from the EU

paxmao

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Quote from: darkangel11 on December 28, 2023, 06:30:37 PM

Quote from: kentrolla on December 22, 2023, 11:33:47 AM

It's a smear campaign to start targeting whoever has been either neutral or with Russia, there should be proper discussions held in regards and to ensure how Hungary can fix things instead of burning the bridges. France and Germany cannot bully Hungary and it should be a collective call because two nations cannot patronize the decisions like who should be in and who should be out of the EU.

This should be sorted out in the tables instead of dirty politics because everyone is entitled to share their thoughts but not to force their thoughts on others.

That's a great post because that's exactly what is happening. Like in Orwell's book there are some who despite propagating equality are better than the rest and are bullying other countries. A great example of that is that Germany and France are imposing their own eco rules on other countries, making them pay higher taxes if they can't stay below certain limits, which in itself is ridiculous. It's like if you had a house with a coal furnace and your friend had an electric one and he told you to meet him in the middle. Since you're producing 100 units of emissions and he's producing 0, you have to lower yours by 50%, or you'll pay a fine. Cheesy

France was selling rifle optics to Russia despite the sanctions in 2022 and it was fine, all according to the rules. Hungary doesn't want to support Ukraine financially, it's against the rules.

Look, Hungary is absolutely free to follow their own path or Hugxit themselves out of the EU. UK did it, anyone can. And they are free to decide on different sets of environmental rules, finances, ... They are a free sovereign country. Nobody is telling them what they can and cannot do.

Now, a different thing is that you want to be in to get the European funding - which comes in great part from Germany and France - but do not accept to negotiate on a common diplomatic approach or follow the essential rules. Hungary wants to get paid while boycotting the EU common interests. It just cannot be.

It is like if you want to join a club in which you know you have to wear a suit to enter and then complaint because they are not letting you through the door on your Iron Maiden sweatshirt and pink shorts.

covfefe_

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It may sound a good idea removing some party that is against the interest of almost a full majority. That way decision making could be easier.
But restricting and suppressing conflicting voices could lead to much more severe consequences in the future. Specially when you yourself are a party of fueling a war.

Ucy

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It was meant to be so. Hungarian leader was not elected to fight Russia or Ukraine even though his voters were fairly on Russian side. If you exclude the country another will replace her because couple of EU nations are meant to be on Russian side who is currently the acting Head of the World.
By the way, part of the reason Hungary acts that way is due to the fact the leader is a patriot who cares more about the interest of his people before others. That is the right thing to do until his people no longer have more serious needs that deserve more attention. Besides that, the leader is more on the traditional side which Russia is also fighting to protect. It's natural for leaders who share similar value to support each other... And by value, I don't mean communism or anti-capitalist values.
Another possible reason is the historic issue between Hungary and Ukraine on minority rights in Ukraine, just as there were historic issues between Poland and Ukraine, which sometimes make the countries react negatively towards Ukraine

The Hungarian leader had made important points and predictions about the Ukraine issues that are quite reasonable. I think EU should be listening to him more rather than excluding Hungary.

darkangel11

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Quote from: kentrolla on December 22, 2023, 11:33:47 AM

It's a smear campaign to start targeting whoever has been either neutral or with Russia, there should be proper discussions held in regards and to ensure how Hungary can fix things instead of burning the bridges. France and Germany cannot bully Hungary and it should be a collective call because two nations cannot patronize the decisions like who should be in and who should be out of the EU.

This should be sorted out in the tables instead of dirty politics because everyone is entitled to share their thoughts but not to force their thoughts on others.

That's a great post because that's exactly what is happening. Like in Orwell's book there are some who despite propagating equality are better than the rest and are bullying other countries. A great example of that is that Germany and France are imposing their own eco rules on other countries, making them pay higher taxes if they can't stay below certain limits, which in itself is ridiculous. It's like if you had a house with a coal furnace and your friend had an electric one and he told you to meet him in the middle. Since you're producing 100 units of emissions and he's producing 0, you have to lower yours by 50%, or you'll pay a fine. Cheesy

France was selling rifle optics to Russia despite the sanctions in 2022 and it was fine, all according to the rules. Hungary doesn't want to support Ukraine financially, it's against the rules.

BADecker

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Didn't the UK (or most of it) just recently get out of the EU? Wasn't that what Brexit was?

Pretty soon all of the EU will be kicking each other out, or will be exiting on their own.

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paxmao

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Quote from: kentrolla on December 22, 2023, 11:33:47 AM

It's a smear campaign to start targeting whoever has been either neutral or with Russia, there should be proper discussions held in regards and to ensure how Hungary can fix things instead of burning the bridges. France and Germany cannot bully Hungary and it should be a collective call because two nations cannot patronize the decisions like who should be in and who should be out of the EU.

This should be sorted out in the tables instead of dirty politics because everyone is entitled to share their thoughts but not to force their thoughts on others.

I think the EU collectively has decided to provide help to Ukraine. It is only Hungary rejecting it on the ground of them not receiving aid. The reason they are not receiving aid is because the EU requires independent judiciary, free press, human rights and democracy. The official view is that Hungary is not sufficiently compliant as to receive funds.

To be honest, if Hungary is so away from the rest of the EU... well, there is no reason to be in. I would not say is bullying, is just being coherent with what Orban says and does.

btc78

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EU will not purposely kick Hungary out of the EU it is up to Hungary if they want to exclude themselves from EU it seems like Hungary will be much more of a problem outside of EU than inside it is most likely that the EU will try to impose some kind of “punishment” in retaliation to Hungary’s constant rule-breaking ways but will not push them out and will keep them for as long as they can

LTU_btc

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Hungary might be not only problem, Slovakia with new pro-Russian government is another one who is going to support to Ukraine. Not clear with Netherlands, they elected pro-Russian Geert Wilders, but looks that he is truggling to form a coalition. You'r reight about Hungary, they don't contribute much to EU, butthey're taking lot of money from EU and don't see any problem there.
I doubt it's possible exclude Hungary from EU somehow. But I think problem lies in different place. It's veto right. And it's not just EU, but all international organizations in general, especially UN who turned into complete joke. Decisions should be made by majority of votes, not with consensus of all members. It's not just about this war, but in genral about everything. Veto right makes taking decision so complicated, it can paralyze work of institutions and probably this issue is going to rise in future.

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Though, I am not sure how much of the European Union would be willing to completely exclude Hungary from the Union, a temporary suspension sounds more like a more moderate and realistic measure to be taken to deal with such country and its leader.
I think in such way because after the exit of the United Kingdom out the European Union, there has been an impression the EU has become weaker and weaker with the passing of time, the United Kingdom was a very valuable member of the Union.
Also, during the past french elections there have been candidate who have been willing to quit the block as well, taking advantage of the Brexit to further push their political ideas or agendas.
Even if Hungary does doe politically align with the ideas of the block and the rest of the members, continuing to make the Union smaller may harden that perception some politicians have on a weak Europe and further push for the separation of all States, it would be a pretty devastating to certain countries, no doubt about it.

I am not even sure how a strongman wanna be dictator end up climbing onto power in an EU republic.

BADecker

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Orbán is a hypocrite. He wears a standard business suit and tie. If he were his own person, he would wear traditional Hungarian garb. However, what he is doing is a step in the right direction.

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kentrolla

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It's a smear campaign to start targeting whoever has been either neutral or with Russia, there should be proper discussions held in regards and to ensure how Hungary can fix things instead of burning the bridges. France and Germany cannot bully Hungary and it should be a collective call because two nations cannot patronize the decisions like who should be in and who should be out of the EU.

This should be sorted out in the tables instead of dirty politics because everyone is entitled to share their thoughts but not to force their thoughts on others.

bluebit25

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With the common interests and individual interests of countries, they will have many reasons to eliminate Hungary if they really want that, imo the rumors will soon come true. It can be understood that the increasing disagreements in views on action among EU members in general, and between Budapest and Brussels in particular, show that cracks are spreading and threatening the goal of unification, which has been the belief of the EU pride of the union for many decades. In the context of the Russia-Ukraine conflict causing turmoil in international relations, countries with interests attached to both sides like Hungary will find it very difficult to maintain a balance in relations with both Russia and the EU. I have heard about the problem of Hungary being very dependent on Russian oil and gas, and it seems that if the removal happens it will not be except for a slap in the face of the EU for supporting Russia more, even though Hungary has so far promoted efforts to obstruct the bloc's sanctions against Moscow.

paxmao

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It is clear that Hungary has, at least with Viktor Orbán, an agenda that is completely opposite to the rest of the European Union. It is not the usual and continuous bargaining, trading and adjustments that happen on a daily basis in the EU for nearly any agreement - that is healthy and by design, it is a completely different strategic agenda. Personally, I suspect Viktor is simply getting paid, but I have no proof.

I wonder how can a process of expulsion be implemented. After all, the contribution of Hungary is nearly nil, but the trouble their government is causing is massive.

There is a process for "suspension", I wonder if it is the time to suspend.

Quote

How can a country be kicked out of the EU?
Expulsion. While a state can be suspended, there is no provision to expel a member state outright. The idea appeared in the drafting of the European Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty but failed to be included.

https://dailynewshungary.com/this-is-how-hungary-could-be-kicked-out-of-the-eu/

Quote

The French and German governments have presented a joint agenda for EU reform. This includes the exclusion of Member States that do not respect the rule of law and the introduction of a semi-membership.
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Topic: A case to exclude Hungary from the EU (Read 107 times)