A hard manipulation? | Bitcointalksearch.org

pooya87

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Quote from: fabiorem on March 14, 2020, 11:42:03 AM

You know what is funny?

When Ifinex was printing tether to boost the bull market in 2017, everybody freaked out. Then you had the tether FUD, based on the view it was morally wrong to print tether when there was no dollar to cover it, even when this was fueling bitcoin's rising to all time highs and prompting adoption by merchants.

But when its Bitmex using its paper contracts to boost the bear market, nobody says a word. And when I say that paper manipulation (futures, options, derivatives, etc) is literally stealing, then people freak out and says this is "normal" market behavior, even when this might hurt adoption of bitcoin in the long term.

Its like people have been programmed to be poor and to accept failure as a default condition of existence.

it is simply because the FUD machine has not yet chosen that topic to put it under magnifying glass.
you know what is even funnier? Tether has been printing like crazy before 2017 bull market and even more during 2018 dumps. but nobody even talked about why (if the FUD were true) bitcoin price was dropping while Tether was printing more than 2017.

it is like the recently popularized thing about "whales move a lot of bitcoin" FUD where during drops you see a lot of talks about big transactions whereas nobody talks about the same big transactions during price rises or any other time and they are happening just the same during those times too. why? because the FUD machine doesn't put it under magnifying glass and sheeple don't bother using their own heads.

ukon

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Quote from: OrangeII on March 15, 2020, 10:14:58 PM

I believe what you say, it's just that the current conditions really match. actually, it's not just bitcoin, but gold and other investments are also dumping quite badly, it's just that the decline in bitcoin is too sudden. This makes me think that there is a possibility of manipulation. however, until now I have not planned to sell my assets to become fiat, I still believe that halving will bring a big increase. Well, when halving happened, I think many people who want to have bitcoin in their wallet.

It might be urgent because of the panic too, so many sell their crypto and dumping also occurs throughout the crypto market, well indeed the global economy is in accordance with crypto, but they can still prevent it and not be too bad in losses so that there are still sticking with stocks they also have security in fiat money so they are waiting for the market to stabilize again.

I do not know whether this huge dump is due to large whale manipulation or because of the effect of this virus because there is no accurate news in my opinion, but overall, all markets are down.

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I believe what you say, it's just that the current conditions really match. actually, it's not just bitcoin, but gold and other investments are also dumping quite badly, it's just that the decline in bitcoin is too sudden. This makes me think that there is a possibility of manipulation. however, until now I have not planned to sell my assets to become fiat, I still believe that halving will bring a big increase. Well, when halving happened, I think many people who want to have bitcoin in their wallet.

Sanitough

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The drop is not normal, it's cause by a panic but there is no panic going to happen if the whales would not drop the bomb, they initiated it and therefore the people followed, and you know what, even if they dump, they are still going to make more money once this covid-19 pandemic is over.

It's about playing smart here, be smart and don't follow the weak hands, they are the ones feeding why the whales getting more richer.

I learn from the past so definitely I am not gonna fall for this panic again, I still hold and accumulate if I still can.

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Quote from: adaseb on March 14, 2020, 10:37:18 PM

If they didn't go down during that time to let the market rest.... BTC would go to $0 on pretty much most exchanges... especially the index ones which algos use. Its too bad that there are no circuit breakers in BTC. I think after this event, that derivatives won't drive the markets as much as before. Its just too risky.

What do you expect to change? You think traders will stop flocking to Bitmex? Crazy liquidations tend to cool the market off for a while but the whales and high leverage gamblers always eventually come back for more.

Even if algo driven, there are limits to the downside. It becomes harder to dump as the price drops since less capital is required to absorb supply. Plus spot exchanges require real BTC on deposit yet Bitmex only processes withdrawals once per day. We were never headed to $0 no matter what Bitmex did. It just felt that way. That's how capitulation feels. Tongue

fabiorem

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Quote from: adaseb on March 14, 2020, 10:37:18 PM

If they didn't go down during that time to let the market rest.... BTC would go to $0 on pretty much most exchanges... especially the index ones which algos use. Its too bad that there are no circuit breakers in BTC. I think after this event, that derivatives won't drive the markets as much as before. Its just too risky.

Maybe this time the exchanges start to implement circuit breakers on their own. They are very necessary for a healthy market. In my opinion, exchanges should build a consensus where they compromise on having circuit breakers.

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Sure it's a manipulation, but it couldn't have happened without the external factors, the magnitude would simply not be as great. Stock market crash triggered this panic, investors across all markets are cashing out, Bitcoin just got hit hard because it's so volatile and lacks liquidity. But I doubt such manipulations can be easily repeated, the market becomes cautious after some time. Everyone want to buy the dip now, after they saw how it bounced from $3,900 to $5,700 in less than an hour.

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Quote from: Pffrt on March 12, 2020, 07:28:50 AM

Last week was full goods news in favor BTC. In the past, we have seen significant growth of price for such kind of news. But this time, with more good news and halving knocking the door, the price is decreased massively. Some concluded it as dump from Plustoken. Now one of the oldest address moving fund (not confirmed if the coins are on sale.
I have bolded halving because it seems a heavy manipulation done by whales before halving. The recent dump has something to do with the halving I think.
Don't hand over your BTC to the whales, they are the one looking for that.

Of course why ned to hand over to the whales when we can just Hold it on our own wallets?the problem now is those people who’re very
afraid of losing when market is dipping but they don’t realize that it is the target of these whales on how they can bag our bitcoin.
Keep the holding and just let market do its way,if this will heading to more dumping so be it even if $3k value hits again anyway we are the one
who will benefits from this when halving comes.

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Quote from: Yaunfitda on March 13, 2020, 04:42:46 AM

Quote from: pooya87 on March 13, 2020, 03:12:53 AM

Quote from: Artemis3 on March 12, 2020, 11:25:52 AM

What a great opportunity to buy bitcoin cheap, for those that survive the virus...

~snip~

Sure covid-19 is highly contagious, but its far life threatening than Sars or Ebola. Yes, the numbers of death are high, but the number of cases are much higher. So, obviously we're talking about the mortality rate here and covid-19 with only 2% mortality rate is far lower than SARS 10%. Most of these deaths are elderly, people who has weak immune system, or people who are afraid to be quarantined and be healed, thus admitting to the hospital was too late.

Quote from: Yaunfitda on March 13, 2020, 04:42:46 AM

Manipulation or not, the market is already suffering from the COVID-19 scare, it's really up to us, if you are an intelligent investors and looking for a good returns in the future.

Agree. There's panic in the market as well as manipulation in cryptocurrency.

Quote from: Yaunfitda on March 13, 2020, 04:42:46 AM

then maybe this is the right time to buy.

Not maybe, but definitely the right time to buy. The panic from the pandemic just destroyed the global market, imagine the millions or billions of dollars the whales could earn when the market recovers.

adaseb

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Quote from: fabiorem on March 14, 2020, 11:59:28 AM

Quote from: gentlemand on March 14, 2020, 11:46:01 AM

I find it kind of strange how rarely Bitmex is mentioned here and in many other places as any type of factor. It's a market monster in the way Bitfinex was in the past even if it isn't 'real' bitcoins.

There's no getting away from paper. It would be nice if it were run by competent and compliant people rather than folks who openly trade against their customers.

If the guy from Bitmex had not hit the kill switch, the dropping would continue until sub-$1000. Probably Peter Brandt knew what was happening and made that prediction based on this.

Going sideways is no sign we are out of the bear market, quite the contrary. The price would need to recover at least 2/3 of the ATH before calling for a bull market. This is the Fibonacci 0.618 retracement after the ATH. Notice that nobody talks about the retracement anymore, the subject died with the bull market. Now its only a matter of "faith", of "believing" that bitcoin will go up. That's why I think the bear market might be permanent, or at least will last for more than five years.

Only collusion through force could remove the paper speculation from cryptospace. Since I dont believe the exchanges will band together to do this, we will need to learn to live with it, and to accept a ATH is no longer possible.

The dropping wouldn't stop at sub-$1000, it would basically stop at $0. Did you trade during that time? There was literally....literally no buy liquidity and there was massive $10M liquidations that kept popping up and nobody wanted to take the trade. It kept going lower and lower. And as it went lower. More and more liquidations were added and pretty soon it was over a billion.

If they didn't go down during that time to let the market rest.... BTC would go to $0 on pretty much most exchanges... especially the index ones which algos use. Its too bad that there are no circuit breakers in BTC. I think after this event, that derivatives won't drive the markets as much as before. Its just too risky.

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Quote from: Pffrt on March 12, 2020, 07:28:50 AM

Last week was full goods news in favor BTC. In the past, we have seen significant growth of price for such kind of news. But this time, with more good news and halving knocking the door, the price is decreased massively. Some concluded it as dump from Plustoken. Now one of the oldest address moving fund (not confirmed if the coins are on sale.
I have bolded halving because it seems a heavy manipulation done by whales before halving. The recent dump has something to do with the halving I think.
Don't hand over your BTC to the whales, they are the one looking for that.

Yeah. Recently we got a lot of good news for Bitcoin and Bitcoin was on the Golden Cross which was giving everyone the signal of the next bull market. The market crashed when most people were waiting for Bitcoin's next insane run. It manipulates by whales and leverage trading exchanges for liquidation of long positions and shakeout weak hands . Retail traders didn't think the market would crash like this.

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Quote from: fabiorem on March 14, 2020, 11:59:28 AM

Only collusion through force could remove the paper speculation from cryptospace. Since I dont believe the exchanges will band together to do this, we will need to learn to live with it, and to accept a ATH is no longer possible.

Ach. We'll see what happens. I expected nothing of this year anyway and it's certainly over delivered so far. I'll start to wonder by the end of next year if nothing positive has occurred by that point.

fabiorem

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Quote from: gentlemand on March 14, 2020, 11:46:01 AM

I find it kind of strange how rarely Bitmex is mentioned here and in many other places as any type of factor. It's a market monster in the way Bitfinex was in the past even if it isn't 'real' bitcoins.

There's no getting away from paper. It would be nice if it were run by competent and compliant people rather than folks who openly trade against their customers.

If the guy from Bitmex had not hit the kill switch, the dropping would continue until sub-$1000. Probably Peter Brandt knew what was happening and made that prediction based on this.

Going sideways is no sign we are out of the bear market, quite the contrary. The price would need to recover at least 2/3 of the ATH before calling for a bull market. This is the Fibonacci 0.618 retracement after the ATH. Notice that nobody talks about the retracement anymore, the subject died with the bull market. Now its only a matter of "faith", of "believing" that bitcoin will go up. That's why I think the bear market might be permanent, or at least will last for more than five years.

Only collusion through force could remove the paper speculation from cryptospace. Since I dont believe the exchanges will band together to do this, we will need to learn to live with it, and to accept a ATH is no longer possible.

gentlemand

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Quote from: fabiorem on March 14, 2020, 11:42:03 AM

But when its Bitmex using its paper contracts to boost the bear market, nobody says a word. And when I say that paper manipulation (futures, options, derivatives, etc) is literally stealing, then people freak out and says this is "normal" market behavior, even when this might hurt adoption of bitcoin in the long term.

Its like people have been programmed to be poor and to accept failure as a default condition of existence.

I find it kind of strange how rarely Bitmex is mentioned here and in many other places as any type of factor. It's a market monster in the way Bitfinex was in the past even if it isn't 'real' bitcoins.

There's no getting away from paper. It would be nice if it were run by competent and compliant people rather than folks who openly trade against their customers.

fabiorem

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You know what is funny?

When Ifinex was printing tether to boost the bull market in 2017, everybody freaked out. Then you had the tether FUD, based on the view it was morally wrong to print tether when there was no dollar to cover it, even when this was fueling bitcoin's rising to all time highs and prompting adoption by merchants.

But when its Bitmex using its paper contracts to boost the bear market, nobody says a word. And when I say that paper manipulation (futures, options, derivatives, etc) is literally stealing, then people freak out and says this is "normal" market behavior, even when this might hurt adoption of bitcoin in the long term.

Its like people have been programmed to be poor and to accept failure as a default condition of existence.

gentlemand

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An interesting thread here on a theory about Bitmex's role in this - https://twitter.com/lowstrife/status/1238818943147507713

He reckons Bitmex basically stopped working properly for quite a period of time and the market bounced as soon as they halted trading on there.

Quote from: fabiorem on March 14, 2020, 10:52:14 AM

I blame zerohedge for having been spreading panic among the markets. Several investors check that site for news.

Then they're twats. We all know what a stirrer that joint is. There's never been a day since its inception that they didn't preach doom.

fabiorem

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I blame zerohedge for having been spreading panic among the markets. Several investors check that site for news.

Personally I believed zerohedge was somewhat of a "outsider" to the legacy system, providing a more impartial view of the markets. This "pandemic" proved they are no different than Joe Rogan and Alex Jones.

You can just check it now, most of the articles there are spreading panic about the flu virus, following the mainstream narrative. No wonder investors liquidated their assets and ran to the dollar.

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Quote from: Jating on March 14, 2020, 02:57:53 AM

Probably investors are selling because:

1. They are in a panic and wanted to have cash in their wallet
2. Investors moving or shifting their funds around crypto-> traditional market and vice-versa
3. Whales putting a lot of sell order to manipulate the price

As of this time, everything has settled down, so we are all good, but then again if this is manipulation one must be careful, just saying.

This is manipulation, I have no doubt about it. Because the way Bitcoin price showing its volatile, it's not natural, it's manipulating by the whales. Your three points have the possibility, but personally, I don't think wise investor will sell at this price, as they wise so they believe Bitcoin price will be high again surly, the third point has high possibility to be true!

Jating

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Probably investors are selling because:

1. They are in a panic and wanted to have cash in their wallet
2. Investors moving or shifting their funds around crypto-> traditional market and vice-versa
3. Whales putting a lot of sell order to manipulate the price

As of this time, everything has settled down, so we are all good, but then again if this is manipulation one must be careful, just saying.

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Quote from: hirngespenst on March 13, 2020, 05:48:30 PM

I am not sure that halving can increase the price immediately, but it seems you are telling the truth! This is a trap by the whales! They are creating panic and saying it's because of Corona, so, people are selling their Bitcoin and whales are winking us! This is the time when everyone should buy bitcoin at low, or stop everything! A wise crypto supporter won't sell at this low to fill the whale's bag!

people only sell because they are afraid to loose more and not really because of corona while there are some that sells too because of corona and not because they see the market is dumping fast hard .

halving is still there and that is one reason why some people are still left here hodling , they are waiting for atleast halving to happen to see if this can really up the price or not but let say not , then its bad because im expecting a harder crash will occur again .

el kaka22

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Well, there could be some manipulation involved for sure but there is also the fact that people are withdrawing their money from crypto to invest into falling stock market as well.

Do not forget that many people use crypto as a platform to get super rich very quickly, I know it is quite wrong and they shouldn't do it and crypto is much more than just a way to make money but unfortunately they use it that way. On the other hand they see stock market as a "real investment" for some reason and when the price of stocks drop they see this as a chance to get a lot more of those stocks that would be a real investment in the future.

I personally think crypto is as real as stocks but not everyone has to agree with me. So, aside from the potential of manipulation, there is a shift of money from crypto to stocks as well.

STT

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Quote from: Pffrt on March 12, 2020, 07:28:50 AM

Don't hand over your BTC to the whales, they are the one looking for that.

The market is a whale, thats the big thing missed. Multiply a million times a common view or consensus trade and it becomes a giant wave nobody can dodge. BTC does tend to be volatile in this way, as someone whose seen a few moves of this magnitude I can say thats all it is pretty much. The enemy so impossibly tall you cannot outrun is the setting sun casting your own shadow.

hirngespenst

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I am not sure that halving can increase the price immediately, but it seems you are telling the truth! This is a trap by the whales! They are creating panic and saying it's because of Corona, so, people are selling their Bitcoin and whales are winking us! This is the time when everyone should buy bitcoin at low, or stop everything! A wise crypto supporter won't sell at this low to fill the whale's bag!

YuginKadoya

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I surely agree that it is not manipulation but a total panic because of the pandemic virus the COVID-19 that is now not only in just 5 to 1 countries only but regarding the fact that the whole world may become infected in no time,

I have seen it first hand here in my country the Phillippines that this issue is really a serious matter because with the first reported case here in the country the situation right now has a 64 and it is kept on increasing as the days progresses and the following problem amidst in the whole NCR municipality of my country

* Panic Buying for Alchohol's, Tissue papers, Can Goods, Beverages, Fruits and mostly Face Mask that is something that is clearly people are mostly taking a hoard when they are buying.

* Basic needs for the protection on the virus have a huge impact on the demand so many individuals are taking this opportunity to hoard and taking its price to abruptly double to triple its Standard retail price.

I think many holders are giving away their Bitcoin or using their hold BTC to secure their protection and their family as well.

Furious 7

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I think this is not entirely done to be satisfied to manipulate prices in the market. Of course we know that our situation is in a crisis, even other markets have experienced the same thing, I think this is indeed the effect of the corona virus, so the fear of investors is so deep because of panic they are afraid of running out of food stocks so they are more selling and storing in assets so it is easy to deposit whatever is needed.

I never thought that the pope did it.

gentlemand

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Quote from: mu_enrico on March 13, 2020, 08:12:53 AM

They cash out to avoid the risks while waiting for the bottom.

Many people are facing the real prospect of being unable to earn any money, maybe for the rest of the year. Think how many businesses will grind to a complete halt such as anything tourism related.

I'm mystified how anyone can be mystified by this move. Being able to survive trounces your dreams of future riches any day of the week. I'm sure there were some whale moves in there somewhere like any other time but it's human nature 101 to shit the bed in a moment like this.

mu_enrico

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The virus has been declared as pandemic by WHO it means that many investors are now preparing for the recession. Not because of zombie apocalypse or the like, but because of closed borders make the flow of goods and services faltered.

They cash out to avoid the risks while waiting for the bottom. Well, that happens in the mainstream financial market. Not sure if the whales also manipulate the crypto market at the same time as this negative sentiment appeared.

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Quote from: DeathAngel on March 12, 2020, 07:44:31 AM

43 sats per byte as the average transaction fee, it isn’t all that high.

No, that's not bad at all, but I've sent bitcoin recently for much less than that (~15 sats/byte) and haven't had crazy delays like I have in the past.

As far as this thread goes, I'm now pretty sure that this drop has nothing to do with whales trying to manipulate the market or the halving. I think it's got everything to do with people being freaked out about coronavirus, which has been discussed endlessly in other threads. People want to be holding cash right now, because they're not sure if they're going to have to lock themselves in their houses for weeks--and if they think they might have to do that, you can bet they'll be stocking up on supplies. And of course you buy supplies with cold hard cash (though you could probably get everything you need with bitcoin).

So no, I don't think this is necessarily a manipulation whereby a group of people are trying to sink the price of bitcoin. It's just happening naturally as the result of fear. And look at other markets; the same thing is happening, so that's even more evidence of this not being a case of whales trying to get bitcoin at lower prices.

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And fools are all claiming it is from the virus. Cry

Manipulation or not there should be a lesson for this.
Newbies who are now in panic thinks they might not make anything out of what they have bought.
Divide the freaking total bitcoin to all of us and so we won't see anything like this happening again. Don't let those whales hoard more of it and dump it again next time.

Push the bitcoin HODL once again and not just a trading tool to make more money out of trading.

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Quote from: pooya87 on March 13, 2020, 03:12:53 AM

Quote from: Artemis3 on March 12, 2020, 11:25:52 AM

What a great opportunity to buy bitcoin cheap, for those that survive the virus...

the only thing scary about COVID-19 is that it is new! otherwise it is not even as dangerous as other viruses that people struggle with every year. for example according to CDC every year about 56000 people die from the flu or flu-like illness meanwhile mortality count of COVID-19 is 4900 so far! it is not even as contagious as flu.

What do you mean that it is not contagious as flu? Many average joe's are affected, even those people who are not highly susceptible are affected, i.e. NBA players, so it's dangerous and highly contagious.

Manipulation or not, the market is already suffering from the COVID-19 scare, it's really up to us, if you are an intelligent investors and looking for a good returns in the future, then maybe this is the right time to buy.

Questat

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This could also be due to manipulation, its expected that bitcoin will drop due to the bad news of corona virus spreading fast but crypto market should not dump this low, due to manipulation it resulted to the market being oversold.

pooya87

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Quote from: Artemis3 on March 12, 2020, 11:25:52 AM

What a great opportunity to buy bitcoin cheap, for those that survive the virus...

the only thing scary about COVID-19 is that it is new! otherwise it is not even as dangerous as other viruses that people struggle with every year. for example according to CDC every year about 56000 people die from the flu or flu-like illness meanwhile mortality count of COVID-19 is 4900 so far! it is not even as contagious as flu.

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Quote from: fabiorem on March 12, 2020, 11:40:09 AM

Quote from: Pffrt on March 12, 2020, 07:28:50 AM

Don't hand over your BTC to the whales, they are the one looking for that.

I didnt sell anything because its not on my target, but I stopped buying several months ago. I was in DCA and noticed we were not in a bull market, despite what the hodl church said. DCA only works well in bull markets.

In my opinion, you are wrong. If you are following DCA, you must have a period of your choice you decided to follow and you must follow that period. DCA is for avoiding risk as much as possible and getting an average return. If you are thinking of a passive income by following DCA, I think you are not in the right path.

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Quote from: Pffrt on March 12, 2020, 07:28:50 AM

Don't hand over your BTC to the whales, they are the one looking for that.

I didnt sell anything because its not on my target, but I stopped buying several months ago. I was in DCA and noticed we were not in a bull market, despite what the hodl church said. DCA only works well in bull markets.

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Quote from: omone1 on March 12, 2020, 08:25:56 AM

Watching the whole market for more than 3hrs, just took my eyes off it to avoid selling at loss and waking up to buying at a higher price which can be heartbreaking. The whole scenario is happening very fast, seems like some powers are manipulating the market to make weak hands sell off. I hope people don't fall for old trick game if this is manipulation.

You are supposed to automate those things, its what the major players do. Stop loss, pre set buy/ sell orders, etc. If you have to be glued to the screen for hours to no end, you are doing it wrong.

What a great opportunity to buy bitcoin cheap, for those that survive the virus...

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Watching the whole market for more than 3hrs, just took my eyes off it to avoid selling at loss and waking up to buying at a higher price which can be heartbreaking. The whole scenario is happening very fast, seems like some powers are manipulating the market to make weak hands sell off. I hope people don't fall for old trick game if this is manipulation.

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Quote from: DeathAngel on March 12, 2020, 07:44:31 AM

43 sats per byte as the average transaction fee, it isn’t all that high. I really hope this horrible land slide stops soon though.

I think it will not stop anytime dooner. I some how thing that it will continue till the price reaches to certain point, the way it is being dumped it seem $5000 is the target. It easily can go upto $5500 due to the panic in the market.

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43 sats per byte as the average transaction fee, it isn’t all that high. I really hope this horrible land slide stops soon though.

Pffrt

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Quote from: Bossian on March 12, 2020, 07:31:45 AM

But you may want to look in the charts too Cool

The economy of BTC is 10 years old only and I would not depend on chart for such a young economy. Doing that is the same as "To beat about the bush." We need BTC to be usual currency for utilizing chart and some more 10 years of course.
The only things we can depend on for speculation is the things happening around and whale manipulation of course Cheesy

NeuroticFish

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The tx fees are high enough the scared average Joe's funds will get stuck anyway, so we are good for now Grin

I also believe it's manipulation, but I clearly didn't expect it be at this magnitude / number of BTC involved.

Quote from: BrewMaster on March 12, 2020, 07:33:03 AM

the funny thing is that during the price drop there has been zero negative news about bitcoin and not just that, there has been dozens of massively positive news about it. which means it makes no sense for the price to react like this.

This sums it up nicely.

BrewMaster

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There is trouble abrewing

i've been saying this for over a week now!

the funny thing is that during the price drop there has been zero negative news about bitcoin and not just that, there has been dozens of massively positive news about it. which means it makes no sense for the price to react like this.

Quote from: Pffrt on March 12, 2020, 07:28:50 AM

Some concluded it as dump from Plustoken.

if that were true then bitcoin price should have had a large scale dump almost every 2 week!

Quote

Now one of the oldest address moving fund (not confirmed if the coins are on sale.

old coins moving is more common than you think actually.

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when Bitcoin price move that fast, there is always some manipulation going on. However, usually when something of this kind happens, it means big investors had a precise price in mind and decided to dump eventually just like when Wall Street got involved late 2017.

But you may want to look in the charts too Cool

Pffrt

sr. member

Activity: 1372

Merit: 322

Last week was full goods news in favor BTC. In the past, we have seen significant growth of price for such kind of news. But this time, with more good news and halving knocking the door, the price is decreased massively. Some concluded it as dump from Plustoken. Now one of the oldest address moving fund (not confirmed if the coins are on sale.
I have bolded halving because it seems a heavy manipulation done by whales before halving. The recent dump has something to do with the halving I think.
Don't hand over your BTC to the whales, they are the one looking for that.

Topic: A hard manipulation? (Read 475 times)