A little reminder why Bitcoin is necessary

DoublerHunter

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Quote from: TribalBob on February 26, 2022, 10:57:53 AM

I'd rather have bitcoin than use paypal, where the terms and conditions are not reliable where paypal regulates our money without being given the freedom to trade like in bitcoin

^ Nobody wants a centralized exchange these days because of the heavy regulations.
Even on myself, I prefer to use BTC which is more decentralized than Paypal, because you will never know when they will ask for verification again.
Op was right, BTC is most important right now to spend your money without central banks or any authorities involve but the problem is once you have fooled with someone your coins will not easily back there is no chargeback not like fiat.

haasanjui

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Bitcoin is necessary to understand for live in modern world and prepare for future. It is new currency which is popular in world called Cryptocurrency and its aim is to provide world wide secure online transaction. Bitcoin is big coin of Crypto and it is accepted in many of companies and shops as a payment asset.

pawanjain

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Nothing lasts forever

If you hold a bitcoin or even a fraction of it, you are basically "own" your money. Nobody else has the right to restrict your access to it and you can spend it whenever you want.
Even the current crisis in Ukraine has forced many people to depend on bitcoin as a source of payment for various things.
Although most people are holding bitcoin because of it's speculative behavior, it still proves it true potential when times like this occurs.

TribalBob

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I'd rather have bitcoin than use paypal, where the terms and conditions are not reliable where paypal regulates our money without being given the freedom to trade like in bitcoin

marilynmanson21

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Quote from: Hispo on February 04, 2022, 08:17:43 AM

Since I know most of the people do not read the terms and conditions any of the services they use, I'll take the liberty to leave this over here for the Paypal users that did not read this part of the contract and also as a lil' reminder why Bitcoin is important.
_______________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________

Source: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full

_______________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________

My interpretation (right or wrong): Paypal will give you the boot if they do not like you, Bitcoin embraces you.

I have never used paypal, after seeing this I hesitate to make and transact using paypal, the rules are too tight, especially the terms and conditions that can change at any time without us knowing

Prosector

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Using a wallet for storing bitcoin is a vast topic. Many people use specific wallets made for storage of crypto only. But we don’t know which one is trustable. Other people either use the regular cloud storage or they use their personal physical storage for storing their crypto.

KennyR

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Years back Satoshi have understood about the centralised system, that's the reason why he looked for an innovation to take away the middle man. After hard work he have given the innovation to the world. When people get more access, they look for the alternate, else they stick to it. Those are days when people had only the centralised system, now they look for the freedom. So, all that need freedom have begun to use bitcoin. I've mentioned freedom, because in banks to take our own money we don't have power. At times the bank authorities decide whether he/she can use his/her money.

coupable

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Quote from: glendall on February 08, 2022, 11:12:49 AM

I'm also confused why the ban on paypal is very strict even though I didn't do anything, just registered and claimed a reward from one of the platforms, and even then it wasn't in large numbers, it's really unfortunate with the existing policy,
but in bitcoin i never experience ban unless i forget 2fa in my wallet

Using 2fa, means you are using a custodial wallet. In fact, with this type of client, you don't hold your money. What you did is send your money to a third part entity who will store the money for you. Same way with holding FIAT in banks.
If you use a non-custodial wallet, Just hold safe your seed/privates keys, and you are fine .

BALIK

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Quote from: glendall on February 08, 2022, 11:12:49 AM

I'm also confused why the ban on paypal is very strict even though I didn't do anything, just registered and claimed a reward from one of the platforms, and even then it wasn't in large numbers, it's really unfortunate with the existing policy,
but in bitcoin i never experience ban unless i forget 2fa in my wallet

Whether you forget 2FA or not, Just backup your private keys. if you backup your keys and keep it safely you don't have to be tense.
You can access your funds by using your Private keys. you can import those keys to another software wallet or ledger nano or any hardware wallet.

2FA is not important here, the only important thing is the Private key.

Now come to Paypal, you can buy bitcoin on PayPal but they will never give you the private key, which means your hands are tied to them, they can seize your funds at any time without informing you, yes Bitcoin has freed us from slavery.

michellee

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Quote from: panukurap on February 08, 2022, 08:34:04 AM

Yes Bitcoin is needed, especially now Bitcoin also plays a role in the world economy where it can be used as a way to earn money. Many people have become rich with Bitcoin. This is one of the positive things so that the poverty rate can be reduced little by little. In addition, with Bitcoin, people have alternatives to invest not only fixated on gold. Even Bitcoin is predicted to be an anti-inflation tool, because Bitcoin is not tied to anything or anyone, even the government.

Yes, we need bitcoin. But bitcoin is still not accepted in all countries, although some countries already did. Much good news about bitcoin will make people aware and interested in coming to bitcoin and will start investing in bitcoin.

When you use a payment system company such as Paypal, you must agree with their Term & Conditions, and anything that is not listed on Paypal Agreement can make you in trouble. Bitcoin can solve this as the user can do whatever they want with their bitcoin if they wish to use it for transactions or just keep it for a long time.

Easteregg69

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Quote from: glendall on February 08, 2022, 11:12:49 AM

I'm also confused why the ban on paypal is very strict even though I didn't do anything, just registered and claimed a reward from one of the platforms, and even then it wasn't in large numbers, it's really unfortunate with the existing policy,
but in bitcoin i never experience ban unless i forget 2fa in my wallet

PayPal is coffee money. Strictly. Don't run business of it!

I know them. (Paraphernalia ban). Hokus pokus. Piratos Haribo. Account closed. For selling joint papers.

glendall

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I'm also confused why the ban on paypal is very strict even though I didn't do anything, just registered and claimed a reward from one of the platforms, and even then it wasn't in large numbers, it's really unfortunate with the existing policy,
but in bitcoin i never experience ban unless i forget 2fa in my wallet

AicecreaME

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Quote from: fiulpro on February 04, 2022, 08:32:13 AM

This is actually the case for most of the things, you have to understand that bitcoins solves the problem of domination by major banks/companies/brands. It's a currency which is not in control of anyone therefore the people who own it own it for real. They own the rights to do anything with it as well. Plus terms and conditions are super long and no one actually reads them, no one has the time to sit down and read them therefore at the end of the day people generally have issues with particular bodies. At the same time banks can declare bankruptcy and disappear without a trace as well, what happened with my grandparent's investments, they did get their initial savings back but only after 5-6 years. Therefore I always feel that we underestimate bitcoins, it's amazing that we have the access to such currency where we control our own assets and money.

Indeed, we are our very own banks if we have bitcoin. That is why most people now prefer to store their money in bitcoin because aside from being not highly affected by inflation, we can do what we want with our funds without involving a centralized organization or third party into the picture. We don't have to follow certain protocols and terms of services because we aren't entrusting our funds to an institution that has its own set of policies. We set our own rules. We don't have to abide by some irrational policy that could compromise our funds and instead we can freely do what we want with our money and protect it to the best that we can by using hardware wallets and such.

panukurap

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Yes Bitcoin is needed, especially now Bitcoin also plays a role in the world economy where it can be used as a way to earn money. Many people have become rich with Bitcoin. This is one of the positive things so that the poverty rate can be reduced little by little. In addition, with Bitcoin, people have alternatives to invest not only fixated on gold. Even Bitcoin is predicted to be an anti-inflation tool, because Bitcoin is not tied to anything or anyone, even the government.

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 06, 2022, 11:32:50 PM

Although PayPal has integrated crypto purchases, like you suggested, it's a financial institution, similar to Revolut, which also offers the ability to buy/sell crypto within their platform, and for that same reason is why these services are not decentralised, like OP mentioned. Because they are simply financial institutions, and that's why it's pointless to make such comparisons, despite sharing some cryptocurrency features.

As I have explained, Paypal has clear rules and is certainly not decentralized like bitcoin. Bitcoin in paypal is only a digital asset that paypal users want. Paypal is a well-known financial institution and is now providing new innovations to include crypto in it. but whether in the future whether paypal rules will be at home or not, just need to wait.

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Quote from: Hispo on February 04, 2022, 08:17:43 AM

Since I know most of the people do not read the terms and conditions any of the services they use, I'll take the liberty to leave this over here for the Paypal users that did not read this part of the contract and also as a lil' reminder why Bitcoin is important.
_______________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________

Source: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full

Agreed that is why Paypal is not more trustworthy than having Bitcoin or at least ranking cryptocurrencies .

Quote from: Obito on February 06, 2022, 08:30:41 PM

The problem with bitcoin though is that there's thousands of wallet that you can use it and only won't be enough, that's not a big problem but this minor inconvenience that there's not universal wallet that you can use so you don't have to change wallets is a bit infuriating to me or maybe I didn't looked hard enough for one. Hopefully someone creates the idea because I think that it's going to be useful.

Why? because of thousands of wallet? lol using best wallet like ledger and tezos will save you from this uncertainties.

worle1bm

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This is what Bitcoin freedom looks like in a world where everything is chained to the centralised authority and they can pull the strings anytime like blocking you from accessing the funds or asking for various documents to be submitted before you proceed for any transfer.Like this PayPal TOS if they don't like it then you can't do anything which means they can put forward any excuse to you for payment denial of your funds only.

Bitcoin is the best which ends this monopoly which is why people love it and rivals hate it as profit margin decrease for them.

Ultegra134

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Quote from: suzanne5223 on February 06, 2022, 02:19:43 PM

Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 06, 2022, 01:09:56 PM

Quote from: AakZaki on February 06, 2022, 10:42:38 AM

Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 04, 2022, 04:41:02 PM

Most services mention that in their TOS, even those who have nothing to do with financial businesses, such as PayPal, Western Union and so on. Thus, I don't find it a reasonable argument. However, I never faced any significant issue with PayPal or eBay, on the contrary, they backed me up in a few cases of being screwed over, or when I once had my account compromised, while my family and I've been using them for over 10 years.

I don't think there's a reason to compare Bitcoin and services such as PayPal, it doesn't lead anywhere nor is it a rational comparison.

there will never be a real reason to compare Bitcoin and services with paypal, because it is irrational. Because Bitcoin and paypal services are very different. Bitcoin is decentralized whereas paypal has clear rules. the limitations provided by paypal are rules that inevitably must be followed if you want to use paypal.

Still, there are quite a few users who frequently compare cryptocurrencies with financial institutions. It's not only pointless, but incomparable. Whether we like it or not, even if Bitcoin's adoption becomes widespread, such services won't be replaced, and we'll be stuck using them no matter what. To be honest, if I'm making a purchase from a foreign country, I always use PayPal, due to their safety features.

Such arguments are invalid, especially for services that have proven their worth throughout a long time period.

If everything you guys was about what the OP pointed out, I believe there's still reason to compare Bitcoin liberation with Paypal centralized service especially now that Paypal offers Bitcoin buy/sell services to people and some crypto enthusiasts may be a victim of what the OP stated.

It is not about Paypal being a financial institution.

Although PayPal has integrated crypto purchases, like you suggested, it's a financial institution, similar to Revolut, which also offers the ability to buy/sell crypto within their platform, and for that same reason is why these services are not decentralised, like OP mentioned. Because they are simply financial institutions, and that's why it's pointless to make such comparisons, despite sharing some cryptocurrency features.

Obito

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The problem with bitcoin though is that there's thousands of wallet that you can use it and only won't be enough, that's not a big problem but this minor inconvenience that there's not universal wallet that you can use so you don't have to change wallets is a bit infuriating to me or maybe I didn't looked hard enough for one. Hopefully someone creates the idea because I think that it's going to be useful.

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 04, 2022, 04:41:02 PM

Most services mention that in their TOS, even those who have nothing to do with financial businesses, such as PayPal, Western Union and so on. Thus, I don't find it a reasonable argument. However, I never faced any significant issue with PayPal or eBay, on the contrary, they backed me up in a few cases of being screwed over, or when I once had my account compromised, while my family and I've been using them for over 10 years.

I don't think there's a reason to compare Bitcoin and services such as PayPal, it doesn't lead anywhere nor is it a rational comparison.

You are right, where I live there are many services offered by people in certain places, it is something like a physical Exchange, but with other things, such as remittances, they have to exchange through Western Union without the need to go to Western Union, they have ZELLE , Paypal, but none of them try to place shipments through BTC and whenever I see this type of notice I question them because they should do it and not just keep the FIAT device, which is also very popular digital money through BTC.

vv181

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Quote from: DanWalker on February 06, 2022, 03:09:06 PM

Quote from: vv181 on February 06, 2022, 02:53:13 PM

Quote from: TheNineClub on February 05, 2022, 05:24:05 PM

I do believe that, when more regulation comes into crypto, we might see similar fine print in some kinds of terms and conditions of BTC investing. Not the same as mentioned here, but when things get to a certain point, something needs to give, and we will see things shift a bit.

We'd already seen that kind of agreement on the Terms of services across some exchanges, even without regulation enforcement. I guess what the point of @OP trying to make is simply to tell you can own and control your own money contrary to what OP oppose which is Paypal. Now that things are completely invalid if someone uses bitcoin that is indirectly not on the users' position, like on the exchanges. So there isn't any difference if the user itself does not own any self-custody.

That's correct, But you don't have to lose your control by using exchange services. People use exchanges to store their Bitcoin cause they are in fear, who told them to use exchanges for storing bitcoin??,

Actually, they fear the sudden dump of Bitcoin, they don't have any trust on Bitcoin but they have enough trust in exchanges to store their bitcoin.
To avoid such a nasty situation you can use P2P services, most of the exchanges are offering P2P services. If you sell your bitcoin via P2P you don't have to send your bitcoin to the exchange wallet.

You are utterly losing control of your coin since the only thing you have left is a trust to those third-party. I do understand some may use exchange for a variety of purposes like trading or just withdrawing to FIAT, but to store a bitcoin on the exchange is nonsense, and I believe it would completely cease the reason as on the OP.

BIT-BENDER

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I don't use PayPal, so I really don't know how true this is, but as for Bitcoin, I believe you are safer when you own in on your private wallet, you might be into Bitcoin but have your coins on an exchange, this is still very risky, because it still not 100% yours, you can also be kicked out by this exchanges, funds stolen from this exchanges or they change their contract with you anytime they want, don't lose your guard because you feel it's safest to be in crypto-currency, they are still threats on the side be wise.

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 06, 2022, 01:09:56 PM

Quote from: AakZaki on February 06, 2022, 10:42:38 AM

Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 04, 2022, 04:41:02 PM

Most services mention that in their TOS, even those who have nothing to do with financial businesses, such as PayPal, Western Union and so on. Thus, I don't find it a reasonable argument. However, I never faced any significant issue with PayPal or eBay, on the contrary, they backed me up in a few cases of being screwed over, or when I once had my account compromised, while my family and I've been using them for over 10 years.

I don't think there's a reason to compare Bitcoin and services such as PayPal, it doesn't lead anywhere nor is it a rational comparison.

there will never be a real reason to compare Bitcoin and services with paypal, because it is irrational. Because Bitcoin and paypal services are very different. Bitcoin is decentralized whereas paypal has clear rules. the limitations provided by paypal are rules that inevitably must be followed if you want to use paypal.

Still, there are quite a few users who frequently compare cryptocurrencies with financial institutions. It's not only pointless, but incomparable. Whether we like it or not, even if Bitcoin's adoption becomes widespread, such services won't be replaced, and we'll be stuck using them no matter what. To be honest, if I'm making a purchase from a foreign country, I always use PayPal, due to their safety features.

Such arguments are invalid, especially for services that have proven their worth throughout a long time period.

Paypal has always proven its own worth that makes more people become interested in it. A payment network that lets you create a one time purchase and an easier way to make payments with your monthly bills by providing faster and more convenient services to its users. However, bitcoin on the other hand is a decentralized currency that also offers you a vast way of freedom to create purchases on the stores that accept bitcoin. Both of them have their own advantages so there is no need to compare them as people will always find them both useful and secured to use.

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Quote from: vv181 on February 06, 2022, 02:53:13 PM

Quote from: TheNineClub on February 05, 2022, 05:24:05 PM

I do believe that, when more regulation comes into crypto, we might see similar fine print in some kinds of terms and conditions of BTC investing. Not the same as mentioned here, but when things get to a certain point, something needs to give, and we will see things shift a bit.

We'd already seen that kind of agreement on the Terms of services across some exchanges, even without regulation enforcement. I guess what the point of @OP trying to make is simply to tell you can own and control your own money contrary to what OP oppose which is Paypal. Now that things are completely invalid if someone uses bitcoin that is indirectly not on the users' position, like on the exchanges. So there isn't any difference if the user itself does not own any self-custody.

That's correct, But you don't have to lose your control by using exchange services. People use exchanges to store their Bitcoin cause they are in fear, who told them to use exchanges for storing bitcoin??,

Actually, they fear the sudden dump of Bitcoin, they don't have any trust on Bitcoin but they have enough trust in exchanges to store their bitcoin.
To avoid such a nasty situation you can use P2P services, most of the exchanges are offering P2P services. If you sell your bitcoin via P2P you don't have to send your bitcoin to the exchange wallet.

vv181

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Quote from: TheNineClub on February 05, 2022, 05:24:05 PM

I do believe that, when more regulation comes into crypto, we might see similar fine print in some kinds of terms and conditions of BTC investing. Not the same as mentioned here, but when things get to a certain point, something needs to give, and we will see things shift a bit.

We'd already seen that kind of agreement on the Terms of services across some exchanges, even without regulation enforcement. I guess what the point of @OP trying to make is simply to tell you can own and control your own money contrary to what OP oppose which is Paypal. Now that things are completely invalid if someone uses bitcoin that is indirectly not on the users' position, like on the exchanges. So there isn't any difference if the user itself does not own any self-custody.

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 06, 2022, 01:09:56 PM

Quote from: AakZaki on February 06, 2022, 10:42:38 AM

Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 04, 2022, 04:41:02 PM

Most services mention that in their TOS, even those who have nothing to do with financial businesses, such as PayPal, Western Union and so on. Thus, I don't find it a reasonable argument. However, I never faced any significant issue with PayPal or eBay, on the contrary, they backed me up in a few cases of being screwed over, or when I once had my account compromised, while my family and I've been using them for over 10 years.

I don't think there's a reason to compare Bitcoin and services such as PayPal, it doesn't lead anywhere nor is it a rational comparison.

there will never be a real reason to compare Bitcoin and services with paypal, because it is irrational. Because Bitcoin and paypal services are very different. Bitcoin is decentralized whereas paypal has clear rules. the limitations provided by paypal are rules that inevitably must be followed if you want to use paypal.

Still, there are quite a few users who frequently compare cryptocurrencies with financial institutions. It's not only pointless, but incomparable. Whether we like it or not, even if Bitcoin's adoption becomes widespread, such services won't be replaced, and we'll be stuck using them no matter what. To be honest, if I'm making a purchase from a foreign country, I always use PayPal, due to their safety features.

Such arguments are invalid, especially for services that have proven their worth throughout a long time period.

If everything you guys was about what the OP pointed out, I believe there's still reason to compare Bitcoin liberation with Paypal centralized service especially now that Paypal offers Bitcoin buy/sell services to people and some crypto enthusiasts may be a victim of what the OP stated.

It is not about Paypal being a financial institution.

Ultegra134

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Quote from: AakZaki on February 06, 2022, 10:42:38 AM

Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 04, 2022, 04:41:02 PM

Most services mention that in their TOS, even those who have nothing to do with financial businesses, such as PayPal, Western Union and so on. Thus, I don't find it a reasonable argument. However, I never faced any significant issue with PayPal or eBay, on the contrary, they backed me up in a few cases of being screwed over, or when I once had my account compromised, while my family and I've been using them for over 10 years.

I don't think there's a reason to compare Bitcoin and services such as PayPal, it doesn't lead anywhere nor is it a rational comparison.

there will never be a real reason to compare Bitcoin and services with paypal, because it is irrational. Because Bitcoin and paypal services are very different. Bitcoin is decentralized whereas paypal has clear rules. the limitations provided by paypal are rules that inevitably must be followed if you want to use paypal.

Still, there are quite a few users who frequently compare cryptocurrencies with financial institutions. It's not only pointless, but incomparable. Whether we like it or not, even if Bitcoin's adoption becomes widespread, such services won't be replaced, and we'll be stuck using them no matter what. To be honest, if I'm making a purchase from a foreign country, I always use PayPal, due to their safety features.

Such arguments are invalid, especially for services that have proven their worth throughout a long time period.

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If you don't include that in your businesses' TOS, then you're just plain dumb. The terms of service of almost any service out there requires the user to agree to this clause so that in the event that something happens, they have the rights to do something legally. Having that broad statement is a necessity if you don't want to face an expensive lawsuit (ie. having the user using their account in a way that harms your business but the narrow TOS doesn't give you the rights to stop it).

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 04, 2022, 04:41:02 PM

Most services mention that in their TOS, even those who have nothing to do with financial businesses, such as PayPal, Western Union and so on. Thus, I don't find it a reasonable argument. However, I never faced any significant issue with PayPal or eBay, on the contrary, they backed me up in a few cases of being screwed over, or when I once had my account compromised, while my family and I've been using them for over 10 years.

I don't think there's a reason to compare Bitcoin and services such as PayPal, it doesn't lead anywhere nor is it a rational comparison.

there will never be a real reason to compare Bitcoin and services with paypal, because it is irrational. Because Bitcoin and paypal services are very different. Bitcoin is decentralized whereas paypal has clear rules. the limitations provided by paypal are rules that inevitably must be followed if you want to use paypal.

coolcoinz

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This reminds me of that South Park episode where they were all experimented on by Apple. Most people don't read ToS, that's the truth, and one day you can find out that you owe them something for years of use of their services.

As for Bitcoin, I've read so many stories here on the forum, like that one where bank did not agree to send some guys money to a casino, because it had strict policies about gambling. Gambling was legal in his country, the casino was legal, he was of legal age, it was his money, but the bank said no, you can't send your money there because we won't allow it.

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I do believe that, when more regulation comes into crypto, we might see similar fine print in some kinds of terms and conditions of BTC investing. Not the same as mentioned here, but when things get to a certain point, something needs to give, and we will see things shift a bit. I would say BTC is necessary for multiple other reasons that are important. After all, BTC and PayPal do not provide similar services so this might not be a valid comparison.

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Quote from: Japinat on February 04, 2022, 02:38:00 PM

Quote from: teosanru on February 04, 2022, 02:18:42 PM

Haha nice point, but this is obvious, Paypal is a private service owned by a set of individuals, it is allowing you to use your service for some charges. The way you have sole discretion to choose whether you want to use Paypal or not, same way they have sole discretion to decide whether to provide or stop providing your services without giving any explanation. But I've always felt comparing Paypal with bitcoin is stupidity, Bitcoin is obviously way ahead of PayPal, competition to bitcoin is fiat currency as a whole not Paypal, infact foreign or cross border remittances are difficult because of fiat in the first place.

There is always an advantage to use a currency that is decentralized because you can do whatever you want since there is no any entity that will give sanction on you. But in cases with government controlled online payment remittances, of course they will have to set rules for their clients and create agreements. Once not followed, termination will follow. Otherwise, the payment system itself will be the one to be reprimanded by the government. There will always be differences from using a decentralized system out from those centralized ones.

Centralized platforms like PayPal may have advantage for those who are dealing with fiat transactions but once these people tried to experience btc or any crypto transactions, they will find out that the fees as well as the convenience it will give to them will be appreciated. A lot are still hesitant to deal with bitcoin because they are not yet aware of what it can possibly bring to their life, if they don't know what they are dealing with, usually they won't touch it. Or some are not into crypto as payment method because they don't know where to start. I am certain, once they educate themselves about crypto, they would like it as a means of payment method regardless of the volatility factor.

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Quote from: Hispo on February 04, 2022, 08:17:43 AM

My interpretation (right or wrong): Paypal will give you the boot if they do not like you, Bitcoin embraces you.

This is the same with almost if not all the centralized service providers for crypto. That's a big part of the reason why the phrase - "Not your keys, not your crypto" is constantly being used in the space. All custodial services would always needs users to give up their right to their assets. Best thing to do is to avoid using such services. PayPal has always had the habit of seizing users funds so it's nothing new.

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Quote from: xSkylarx on February 05, 2022, 07:35:50 AM

This really hit me hard because I don't read user agreements because I think they are useless and time consuming, as others do; we just use their service and then after we get banned, we read their user agreement and figure out why we got banned. On the other hand, Bitcoin was created as an alternative payment method online because the fees were previously prohibitively high, and it also took too long to receive. This is why Bitcoin was created, and this is still its primary purpose. It is also now used as an investment.

This is a sad truth, having this negative mentality that we always regret in the end because of not exerting effort to understand in the first place. However, bitcoin and Paypal are both online payment methods but since Paypal is a centralized one, then it has its own terms for agreement that will terminate you as a member if you can't abide with it. But with bitcoin, you are given the freedom to do what you want without terms and agreement since its not backed by the government. And no one can banned you because bitcoin is not run by authorities.

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You obviously know that all 3rd party services makes use of the same kind of ToS when you breach their conditions.. right? This is applicable to Bitcoin Exchanges and Wallet providers too.

How many people do you know that are not using some kind of third party service to use their Crypto currencies? How many people run their own nodes and use Bitcoin as it should be used? So third party services in Bitcoin is just as bad as PayPal or Credit card companies... just look at Coinbase as an example. Angry

teosanru

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Quote from: Japinat on February 04, 2022, 02:38:00 PM

Quote from: teosanru on February 04, 2022, 02:18:42 PM

Haha nice point, but this is obvious, Paypal is a private service owned by a set of individuals, it is allowing you to use your service for some charges. The way you have sole discretion to choose whether you want to use Paypal or not, same way they have sole discretion to decide whether to provide or stop providing your services without giving any explanation. But I've always felt comparing Paypal with bitcoin is stupidity, Bitcoin is obviously way ahead of PayPal, competition to bitcoin is fiat currency as a whole not Paypal, infact foreign or cross border remittances are difficult because of fiat in the first place.

There is always an advantage to use a currency that is decentralized because you can do whatever you want since there is no any entity that will give sanction on you. But in cases with government controlled online payment remittances, of course they will have to set rules for their clients and create agreements. Once not followed, termination will follow. Otherwise, the payment system itself will be the one to be reprimanded by the government. There will always be differences from using a decentralized system out from those centralized ones.

Obviously yes but my point is that the fight of bitcoin or the competition of bitcoin isn't these payment partners or companies, the prime competitors of bitcoin are the fiat currencies themselves. If we want to stop using centralized government-controlled payment networks, then idea is to drop Fiat altogether and only then we will be able to succeed.

Quote from: DanWalker on February 05, 2022, 10:10:15 AM

All the companies in the world have their own rules & condition, if you break those they will ban you, this is normal.
So, Bitcoin is best for those who do not like to keep their money unprotected.
But you know, PayPal is great for those who have low knowledge of technology and want to work in a simple way, till now many people don't know how to use non-custodial wallets properly, they don't know the importance of private key.
Even if their property is not protected in the custodial wallet, it is still easy to use for them.

It just takes you 15 minutes to understand how a private key wallet works and how important are your private keys. If you compare it with Paypal I see almost zero difference in difficulty level of both the technologies, if you don't want to get into network fees management and all, sending, receiving and maintaining bitcoin is really easy to understand.

kryptqnick

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PayPal can do a lot, and many centralized companies do the same, but Bitcoin's a solution only if it's used properly, storing one's own private key and avoiding centralized services like custodial wallets, crypto exchanges etc. In fact, PayPal itself offering storing Bitcoin in the US if I'm not mistaken, so people can use it and store it this way, not really noticing the difference. And, unfortunately, I think mass adoption of cryptos is going to rely on centralization. It'll rely on custodial wallets, like in El Salvador; on big exchanges forcing KYC and reserving many rights, like Binance; using centralized payment systems, like Bitpay. Having something under one's own control and thus one's own responsibility isn't for everyone.

DanWalker

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All the companies in the world have their own rules & condition, if you break those they will ban you, this is normal.
So, Bitcoin is best for those who do not like to keep their money unprotected.
But you know, PayPal is great for those who have low knowledge of technology and want to work in a simple way, till now many people don't know how to use non-custodial wallets properly, they don't know the importance of private key.
Even if their property is not protected in the custodial wallet, it is still easy to use for them.

xSkylarx

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This really hit me hard because I don't read user agreements because I think they are useless and time consuming, as others do; we just use their service and then after we get banned, we read their user agreement and figure out why we got banned. On the other hand, Bitcoin was created as an alternative payment method online because the fees were previously prohibitively high, and it also took too long to receive. This is why Bitcoin was created, and this is still its primary purpose. It is also now used as an investment.

Ultegra134

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Quote from: lixer on February 05, 2022, 01:26:54 AM

Quote from: adzino on February 05, 2022, 12:40:19 AM

how does bitcoin help in cases like this? Terms and conditions like this exists almost everywhere. They can change or terminate the Terms of service anytime they want. They are not bound to keep it the same nor are they forced to inform their users when the terms and conditions changes (but almost all platforms do notify their users out of goodwill). If a platform doesn't like you they can give you the "boot" if they want. Lets say you want to buy something from a crypto store. You make a deposit or make the payment. The online crypto store doesn't like you and bans your account as per their ToS. You lose your coins. Bitcoin couldn't protect you from events like this. Plan to do a p2p transaction then? You send the money, the person doesn't like you, he scams you. You can't do anything about that.

This was only a miss interpretation. They cant ban someone just because they do not like the person and what is their basis on why they do not like that person? Because, their profile picture is ugly? No, but they will only ban you once you have done something that are against their rules. Let us not be paranoid because we are going to be just fine as long as you are following their basic rules and your not doing shady things

OP compares btc to paypal because btc has no central authority while paypal was owned by a team or a group of people and they can do whatever they want with your funds but the situation still depends and you already explained that in more elaborated manner.

That's correct, you'll be fine provided that you don't break their terms of services. They won't plain block you for no reason, unless they suspect you for suspicious/shady activities. I don't get why there are people comparing a service to Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies in general, it's not something to be compared. I've been using PayPal for years, and it's been great. Their support was decent and fast most of the time, while I found it very convenient to use.

On the downside, their fees, especially on eBay are quite high, but nevertheless, it's providing you with a great service from which I've made a decent amount of money, selling items.

lixer

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Quote from: adzino on February 05, 2022, 12:40:19 AM

how does bitcoin help in cases like this? Terms and conditions like this exists almost everywhere. They can change or terminate the Terms of service anytime they want. They are not bound to keep it the same nor are they forced to inform their users when the terms and conditions changes (but almost all platforms do notify their users out of goodwill). If a platform doesn't like you they can give you the "boot" if they want. Lets say you want to buy something from a crypto store. You make a deposit or make the payment. The online crypto store doesn't like you and bans your account as per their ToS. You lose your coins. Bitcoin couldn't protect you from events like this. Plan to do a p2p transaction then? You send the money, the person doesn't like you, he scams you. You can't do anything about that.

This was only a miss interpretation. They cant ban someone just because they do not like the person and what is their basis on why they do not like that person? Because, their profile picture is ugly? No, but they will only ban you once you have done something that are against their rules. Let us not be paranoid because we are going to be just fine as long as you are following their basic rules and your not doing shady things

OP compares btc to paypal because btc has no central authority while paypal was owned by a team or a group of people and they can do whatever they want with your funds but the situation still depends and you already explained that in more elaborated manner.

adzino

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Quote from: Hispo on February 04, 2022, 08:17:43 AM

Since I know most of the people do not read the terms and conditions any of the services they use, I'll take the liberty to leave this over here for the Paypal users that did not read this part of the contract and also as a lil' reminder why Bitcoin is important.
_______________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________

-snip-

Source: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full

_______________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________

My interpretation (right or wrong): Paypal will give you the boot if they do not like you, Bitcoin embraces you.

And how does bitcoin help in cases like this? Terms and conditions like this exists almost everywhere. They can change or terminate the Terms of service anytime they want. They are not bound to keep it the same nor are they forced to inform their users when the terms and conditions changes (but almost all platforms do notify their users out of goodwill). If a platform doesn't like you they can give you the "boot" if they want. Lets say you want to buy something from a crypto store. You make a deposit or make the payment. The online crypto store doesn't like you and bans your account as per their ToS. You lose your coins. Bitcoin couldn't protect you from events like this. Plan to do a p2p transaction then? You send the money, the person doesn't like you, he scams you. You can't do anything about that.

Ultegra134

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Most services mention that in their TOS, even those who have nothing to do with financial businesses, such as PayPal, Western Union and so on. Thus, I don't find it a reasonable argument. However, I never faced any significant issue with PayPal or eBay, on the contrary, they backed me up in a few cases of being screwed over, or when I once had my account compromised, while my family and I've been using them for over 10 years.

I don't think there's a reason to compare Bitcoin and services such as PayPal, it doesn't lead anywhere nor is it a rational comparison.

Kelvinid

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Unfortunately, only a few people were able to read while the majority just simply jump into it and do the registration. But the good thing about Bitcoin is there are no such restrictions and not even banned your account, not even you violate any nor it was confiscated for we are free to do with our Bitcoins, unlike Paypal. I'm not thinking that it was necessary to use Bitcoin in our daily transactions but it was the best option if we wanted to have easy and fast transactions.

Accardo

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I remember the period Elon Musk was handling paypal, many online traders complained about the infringement of their PayPal funds. They must have boycotted one rule and they will be nothing like contacting their support team due to the fact that paypal can suspend an account for like two years before it'll be released for the customer's usage. These are money that worth over 4 to 5 digits! So, during the invasion of bitcoin many traders chose to divert to a more risky but self maintained (decentralized) system type of transacting money. However, many vendors in American prefer Paypal to Bitcoin because of the "charging for dispute" feature of the platform unlike the unreversed nature of cryptocurrency whereby customers cannot charge back if the vendor doesn't deliver. Sometimes the bad miner with the highest amount of pool can still charge back if the vendor sends the product depending on how fast they have calculated the pool using poison process.

Therefore, the system is risky; like I said, many of us don't just like paypal because of their too much restrictions. That's why many vendors and traders switched to cryptocurrency and everyone in the cryptocurrency space prefer the system.

Japinat

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Quote from: teosanru on February 04, 2022, 02:18:42 PM

Haha nice point, but this is obvious, Paypal is a private service owned by a set of individuals, it is allowing you to use your service for some charges. The way you have sole discretion to choose whether you want to use Paypal or not, same way they have sole discretion to decide whether to provide or stop providing your services without giving any explanation. But I've always felt comparing Paypal with bitcoin is stupidity, Bitcoin is obviously way ahead of PayPal, competition to bitcoin is fiat currency as a whole not Paypal, infact foreign or cross border remittances are difficult because of fiat in the first place.

There is always an advantage to use a currency that is decentralized because you can do whatever you want since there is no any entity that will give sanction on you. But in cases with government controlled online payment remittances, of course they will have to set rules for their clients and create agreements. Once not followed, termination will follow. Otherwise, the payment system itself will be the one to be reprimanded by the government. There will always be differences from using a decentralized system out from those centralized ones.

teosanru

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Haha nice point, but this is obvious, Paypal is a private service owned by a set of individuals, it is allowing you to use your service for some charges. The way you have sole discretion to choose whether you want to use Paypal or not, same way they have sole discretion to decide whether to provide or stop providing your services without giving any explanation. But I've always felt comparing Paypal with bitcoin is stupidity, Bitcoin is obviously way ahead of PayPal, competition to bitcoin is fiat currency as a whole not Paypal, infact foreign or cross border remittances are difficult because of fiat in the first place.

Rruchi man

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Quote from: Hispo on February 04, 2022, 08:17:43 AM

Since I know most of the people do not read the terms and conditions any of the services they use, I'll take the liberty to leave this over here for the Paypal users that did not read this part of the contract and also as a lil' reminder why Bitcoin is important.

We really need to pay more attention to terms and conditions and make sure to understand them before using any business service. This been highlighted, we must understand that all good busineses & companies have terms and conditions that users are expected to adhere to, to use their service, these businesses & companies can't operate without these T&C's. While some businesses & companies have less stricter T&C's, others may be stricter. As someone in need of a service, it becomes your duty to find out which business or company's terms and conditions that is most appropriate for you & you can adhere to, before subscribing to a service with a company/business.

avikz

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Quote from: Hispo on February 04, 2022, 08:17:43 AM

My interpretation (right or wrong): Paypal will give you the boot if they do not like you, Bitcoin embraces you.

Any business holds the right to either accept or reject any customer. It's their right. You need to understand that Paypal is a business organization and they provide a service. So it's their call whether they want to provide service to you or not. If you want to use a bitcoin wallet like Coinbase, they have a similar rule as well.

Only if you can use a non-custodial wallet service, then you are the sole controller of your own money. Otherwise even banks can deny their service to anyone they don't think eligible.

Wexnident

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Quote from: Hispo on February 04, 2022, 08:17:43 AM

My interpretation (right or wrong): Paypal will give you the boot if they do not like you, Bitcoin embraces you.

Well, they'd only boot you if you did something wrong (or idk, someone from higherups hates you, which is the less likely occurrence most of the time imo). Honestly, it's they're right, it is the business they are running so they have to take some measures so that if ever there were some malicious activities, they can immediately cut it off without having the issue of legality since well, they already stated they could do so. Nothing really wrong imo.

Bitcoin being the better option isn't necessarily always true, it's always a subjective type kind of thing, or maybe situational idrk, see it depends.

Flyingjack123

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Bitcoin is a great changemaker, no matter what will happen in crypto down the line a decade or two.
Bitcoin will always be considered the first crypto currency and Satoshi will always be the father of crypto.
Yes if we can say is crypto is necessary. We can say that the way world is evolving, crypto seems a perfect place to keep your funds safe..
Even banks can get defunct, so your money your responsibility and your control.
Keep it encrypted.

Bitcoin the pioneer will always be a good safehouse

so98nn

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Boy that’s harsh ToS. I know that when it comes to the financial services these guys will be one step ahead of user because it’s simply financial stuff! The business runs on money so if you gonna be involved in it then it’s all about how they can save more or loot more. Lolz.

However, I’m not surprised that PayPal is doing this. They do take your side if you wanna have refund from any product or service that you use throng them. That much Liberty I have taken many times so no hard feelings.

And yes bitcoin is always gonna be first love. Grin

passwordnow

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Each platform that has have their own rules when it regards to account matters. They can really terminate an account if it violated any of their rules but here's the catch. I have seen those people that have banned account in PayPal without knowing in which part they've violated because they don't even disclose. They've asked politely on what violation did they made for them to have PayPal's hammer into them but, it's the same reply with most of them. There's no disclosure of the reason and that's really something to be worried for if you're an avid user of this company.

Iranus

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Quote from: Hispo on February 04, 2022, 08:17:43 AM

-snip
Paypal will give you the boot if they do not like you, Bitcoin embraces you.

Not just PayPal, any limited company protects the rights of its users. They can seize your money at any time if they want, without giving any reason, you have to do business with them by accepting these.
People prefer Bitcoin only because of its anonymity and to get rid of the regulatory body. I think a person who has used Bitcoin once will never use a third-party service like PayPal for the second time.

noorman0

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And think when your bitcoins are managed by a centralized service like Paypal, your bitcoins become useless.
Since centralized businesses have to have responsibilities, they will also take some of your rights. With all the authority they create, sometimes they become unfair, moreover all businesses have been automated with the system. And you have no choice but to follow the rules because you chose the decentralized as the trust.

I think all systems will have consequences. Bitcoin (self-managed) can be the best choice if you can fully measure, underwrite and guarantee yourself from all aspects.

Lucius

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What is the difference between someone storing their Bitcoin in a PP account or some centralized crypto exchange? There is no difference, each service has similar conditions under which it can suspend/close any account without any explanation, and Bitcoin cannot help all those people who cannot understand that they should be their own bank.

When someone is wondering why more people don't own Bitcoin, let them ask themselves why most people aren't really capable of anything more than inserting a plastic card into an ATM and entering a 4-digit PIN.

Bitcoin is not necessarily needed, it is just an alternative given to us to choose from, and at the moment at least 95% of people cannot or do not want to understand it. Centuries of brainwashing cannot be undone in a decade.

ChiBitCTy

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As someone who’s been using eBay and PayPal for many many years I can vouch for the fact that they will indeed ban you for any ol reason at all whether it makes and sense or not. I’ve had countless friends get banned from PayPal for absolutely no reason at all. Bitcoin won’t and can’t ban you!

coupable

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Quote from: uchegod-21 on February 04, 2022, 08:33:55 AM

Bitcoin is in for many comparison and battle. We have Bitcoin vs institutions, bitcion vs banks, bitcion vs government, bitcion vs altcoins, bitcion vs PayPal etc.
We know of account restrictions of PayPal users when T&C I violated. I am saying that bitcion is liberty to the people, so liberty should not always be dragged to the mud.

The most impressive thing about bitcoin when comparing it to all those services you mentioned, is that it represents a currency for exchange and a payment system at the same time, combining both concepts. The exception is bitcoin vs governments because we still need it to be recognized by legal authorities to be fully adopted by individuals as we are yet living under centralized authorites which governs almost everything including finance and economy.

Hispo

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Quote from: franky1 on February 04, 2022, 08:26:01 AM

-snip-

Sure, but there is a difference when comes to services to like a forum compared to payment processors.

People can discuss Bitcoin in several places on the internet, people can go to Burger Kings if they are banned from Macdolnalds or even make their own Burgers at home, on the other hand Mastercard/Visa/paypal have a huge power when comes to leaving people or companies without options to receive/send funds. Being able to sell and buy it should be (or it is, i am not sure) a human right, and leaving such an important part of being a citizen on the hands of companies willing to isolate us for "any reason" is dangerous.

This topic/thread was intended to be a little reminder or a curiosity for those who did not know about this, obviously we all know why Bitcoin is important/necessary.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

“There is freedom waiting for you,
On the breezes of the sky,
And you ask "What if I fall?"
Oh but my darling,
What if you fly?”

— Erin Hanson.

Interpretation of the poem: People don't use Bitcoin, because they think they're playing it safe. They're reckless enough to realize the potential dangers of their current money and the benefits they can get by using Bitcoin.

uchegod-21

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BTC, a coin of today and tomorrow.

Bitcoin is in for many comparison and battle. We have Bitcoin vs institutions, bitcion vs banks, bitcion vs government, bitcion vs altcoins, bitcion vs PayPal etc.
We know of account restrictions of PayPal users when T&C I violated. I am saying that bitcion is liberty to the people, so liberty should not always be dragged to the mud.
Bitcion is in his own class.
Bitcoin = liberty

fiulpro

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This is actually the case for most of the things, you have to understand that bitcoins solves the problem of domination by major banks/companies/brands. It's a currency which is not in control of anyone therefore the people who own it own it for real. They own the rights to do anything with it as well. Plus terms and conditions are super long and no one actually reads them, no one has the time to sit down and read them therefore at the end of the day people generally have issues with particular bodies. At the same time banks can declare bankruptcy and disappear without a trace as well, what happened with my grandparent's investments, they did get their initial savings back but only after 5-6 years. Therefore I always feel that we underestimate bitcoins, it's amazing that we have the access to such currency where we control our own assets and money.

franky1

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all businesses can reject a customer for any reason.
no one has a human right to enter a business. you are entering their property and so its their decision who they treat as a visitor, member, guest, customer or tresspasser.
freedom of movement does not mean you have the right to walk into a business. it just means you can move your legs.
freedom to travel does not mean you have a right to drive stupidly on a road. nor get on a train or bus

even this forum is the same. you have no human right to use this forum
even free speech is not a good enough reason. you have the human right (well natural biology) to wiggle your tongue and move your lips but that does not extend to a stage, platform or forum to amplify your speech to a broader range.

bitcoin works because it does not rely on a middleman/service which can just say no whenever it wants. you dont need laws, rights or permission with bitcoin. it just works

Hispo

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Since I know most of the people do not read the terms and conditions any of the services they use, I'll take the liberty to leave this over here for the Paypal users that did not read this part of the contract and also as a lil' reminder why Bitcoin is important.
_______________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________

Source: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full

_______________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________

My interpretation (right or wrong): Paypal will give you the boot if they do not like you, Bitcoin embraces you.

Topic: A little reminder why Bitcoin is necessary (Read 621 times)