Yes, most important.
I truly believe the post from TrevorXavier should be pinned to the gambling forum.
Topic: ADDITION TO "Prov fair and how it can be exploited by casino.." by KingOfSports (Read 563 times)
September 08, 2013, 08:51:35 AM
September 08, 2013, 02:00:32 AM
Yeah that is right. Fairness is important to keep your customers.
September 07, 2013, 05:40:39 PM
Thanks b!z.
But nothing that already hasn't been said before by various other people.
I just think we need to keep the information at the forefront, to be community regulation, in the absence of formal regulations. If what some sites do with their online bitcoin 'casinos', they did in Vegas, the owners of those sites would be in prison very quickly.
There are enough techie and savvy individuals around that can see whats going on, just wanting to let others know so they can truly make an informed choice about how/where they bet their btc.
The part about these sites committing the cheating on a segregated/minority of players is the WORST thing.
When the accusers come out, so many players jump up and passionately defend the cheating site. And they do so with the hand on their heart truly believing same to be a fact. However those defending will never fall victim to these sites - their bet amounts are just too low.
And since the vast majority are defending, the issue slowly dies. GREAT FOR THE CHEATING SITE. But VERY BAD for the bitcoin betting community.
But nothing that already hasn't been said before by various other people.
I just think we need to keep the information at the forefront, to be community regulation, in the absence of formal regulations. If what some sites do with their online bitcoin 'casinos', they did in Vegas, the owners of those sites would be in prison very quickly.
There are enough techie and savvy individuals around that can see whats going on, just wanting to let others know so they can truly make an informed choice about how/where they bet their btc.
The part about these sites committing the cheating on a segregated/minority of players is the WORST thing.
When the accusers come out, so many players jump up and passionately defend the cheating site. And they do so with the hand on their heart truly believing same to be a fact. However those defending will never fall victim to these sites - their bet amounts are just too low.
And since the vast majority are defending, the issue slowly dies. GREAT FOR THE CHEATING SITE. But VERY BAD for the bitcoin betting community.
September 07, 2013, 10:15:41 AM
Wow thanks for the great write up. i think he will be happy to have a new fan 
September 07, 2013, 09:30:45 AM
Because he is one of the few on this forum that speaks out about his BELIEFS. He has never accused any specific site of cheating, but he has sated his beliefs about certain things he has noticed.
So i respect him for speaking out when everybody else take their micro coin then take it up the...
That and i couldn't be arsed being creative.
So i respect him for speaking out when everybody else take their micro coin then take it up the...
That and i couldn't be arsed being creative.
September 07, 2013, 09:23:20 AM
Dafuq did you name yourself this then 
September 07, 2013, 09:19:19 AM
As newbie, i cannot post in KingOfSports thread in the gambling section of this forum.
Moderators please feel free to move this to that thread, as that is where i would have liked to post.
*****************************
From KingOfSports thread:
"Someone posted this article in one of the threads here. Had to highlight it as many sites are being questioned regarding this.
MUST READ ARTICLE:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/
"
Firstly and MOST IMPORTANTLY - I have no affiliation with KingOfSports (KOS) whatsoever.
So KOS if this comes back on you in anyway, I sincerely apologize.
But I agree and share some of the same BELIEFS as you do. But what I BELIEVE is what I believe. Just because a belief or two are shared does not mean ALL beliefs are shared.
My personal BELIEF is that there are sites claiming to be provably fair, however are NOT FAIR at all. My current site of ‘dishonor’ I will not name specifically, but I will say it starts with ‘PRIME’ and ends in ‘DICE’.
I will again refer to the excellent article written by TrevorXavier: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/
And provide a couple of quotes from it I also believe to be true.
Quote 1 “Bet Discrimination Under the assumption that an investigator will not place high stakes to investigate cheating, the house can safely offer a fair game to those using play money or very low stakes. As the bet size increases, so does the probability of an exploit. A house can also analyze betting patterns (progressives) for ways to minimize its short term risk of ruin.”
Yes, a lot of players (myself included) on some sites have many hands/spins/rolls of wins, thousands of wins. So many wins (correct statistically and all or even above odds to player even), however at such micro bets. BUT, I am sure some of you (myself included) bet a reasonable amount each go at times as well, say 0.1 low end, 1.0+ btc per go.
What have you / I personally seen at 1.0 btc per bet. WOW, instant such a bad run, just an unlucky day, its gambling, you will always lose, don’t gamble. 9 and 10 losing streaks in a row at 50%, several times over, and within 200 bets. 7-8/10 loses at 70% time after time. Wow, kind of thought at 70%, I should have been winning 7/10, statistically I mean. But yeah, loses like this can happen.
Go back to micro, and it’s within statistical limits again, even win, win, win, win, Yay I just won 0.000055 btc.
Quote 2 “Third, it can employ these cheats to minimize risk during progressive betting. Any player using Martingale or other betting system will always lose in the long-run, but short-run gains can occur. As such, producing guaranteed losses for the player over big bets will factor into the house's profit-maximizing strategy.
Fourth, a house can offer more smaller wins to players by cheating large bets, increasing word-of-mouth advertising. For example, suppose a draw poker game accepts bets from a micro-bitcoin to 50 BTC. If the house forces a player loss at 40 BTC…”
Quote 3. From the discussion in that article “A main point of the article suggests that a house could effectively cheat a portion of its players by segregating them through bet or browser discrimination. By implication this means a majority of the cheats are performed on a minority of players.”
So the people you see complaining about sites cheating are these ‘minority’. And the people you see defending, are those ‘majority’.
If you are in the ‘majority’, sorry you don’t have enough cash to bet more than a dime a go.
If you are in the ‘minority’, then chances are some sites are cheating you.
Got to love when sites are smart enough to give countless free micro coins out and then let players play fairly with them. ONLY TO CHEAT PLAYERS WHEN THEY DEPOSIT OWN FUNDS AND BET LARGER.
Yes, any outcome is statistically possible. No one is forcing anyone to bet. But claiming to be a fair site, when you are not, just because there is no regulation, is straight up scamming.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, time and time again, based on observations by independent person after independent person, well….
Well, just read the linked article folks. Then re-read it. And to anyone who comes out defending certain sites, stop being ass-kissers please, man up and place several dozen above 1.0 btc per go bets, and THEN see how fair it is, statistically or otherwise.
Let the drama begin……….
Moderators please feel free to move this to that thread, as that is where i would have liked to post.
*****************************
From KingOfSports thread:
"Someone posted this article in one of the threads here. Had to highlight it as many sites are being questioned regarding this.
MUST READ ARTICLE:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/
"
Firstly and MOST IMPORTANTLY - I have no affiliation with KingOfSports (KOS) whatsoever.
So KOS if this comes back on you in anyway, I sincerely apologize.
But I agree and share some of the same BELIEFS as you do. But what I BELIEVE is what I believe. Just because a belief or two are shared does not mean ALL beliefs are shared.
My personal BELIEF is that there are sites claiming to be provably fair, however are NOT FAIR at all. My current site of ‘dishonor’ I will not name specifically, but I will say it starts with ‘PRIME’ and ends in ‘DICE’.
I will again refer to the excellent article written by TrevorXavier: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/
And provide a couple of quotes from it I also believe to be true.
Quote 1 “Bet Discrimination Under the assumption that an investigator will not place high stakes to investigate cheating, the house can safely offer a fair game to those using play money or very low stakes. As the bet size increases, so does the probability of an exploit. A house can also analyze betting patterns (progressives) for ways to minimize its short term risk of ruin.”
Yes, a lot of players (myself included) on some sites have many hands/spins/rolls of wins, thousands of wins. So many wins (correct statistically and all or even above odds to player even), however at such micro bets. BUT, I am sure some of you (myself included) bet a reasonable amount each go at times as well, say 0.1 low end, 1.0+ btc per go.
What have you / I personally seen at 1.0 btc per bet. WOW, instant such a bad run, just an unlucky day, its gambling, you will always lose, don’t gamble. 9 and 10 losing streaks in a row at 50%, several times over, and within 200 bets. 7-8/10 loses at 70% time after time. Wow, kind of thought at 70%, I should have been winning 7/10, statistically I mean. But yeah, loses like this can happen.
Go back to micro, and it’s within statistical limits again, even win, win, win, win, Yay I just won 0.000055 btc.
Quote 2 “Third, it can employ these cheats to minimize risk during progressive betting. Any player using Martingale or other betting system will always lose in the long-run, but short-run gains can occur. As such, producing guaranteed losses for the player over big bets will factor into the house's profit-maximizing strategy.
Fourth, a house can offer more smaller wins to players by cheating large bets, increasing word-of-mouth advertising. For example, suppose a draw poker game accepts bets from a micro-bitcoin to 50 BTC. If the house forces a player loss at 40 BTC…”
Quote 3. From the discussion in that article “A main point of the article suggests that a house could effectively cheat a portion of its players by segregating them through bet or browser discrimination. By implication this means a majority of the cheats are performed on a minority of players.”
So the people you see complaining about sites cheating are these ‘minority’. And the people you see defending, are those ‘majority’.
If you are in the ‘majority’, sorry you don’t have enough cash to bet more than a dime a go.
If you are in the ‘minority’, then chances are some sites are cheating you.
Got to love when sites are smart enough to give countless free micro coins out and then let players play fairly with them. ONLY TO CHEAT PLAYERS WHEN THEY DEPOSIT OWN FUNDS AND BET LARGER.
Yes, any outcome is statistically possible. No one is forcing anyone to bet. But claiming to be a fair site, when you are not, just because there is no regulation, is straight up scamming.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, time and time again, based on observations by independent person after independent person, well….
Well, just read the linked article folks. Then re-read it. And to anyone who comes out defending certain sites, stop being ass-kissers please, man up and place several dozen above 1.0 btc per go bets, and THEN see how fair it is, statistically or otherwise.
Let the drama begin……….
Jump to: