Topic: Altcoin4life - HACKED ACCOUNT - Collateral 4 Murderouskirk - Swingdev - ADVICE?? (Read 1848 times)

I've had the exact same situation. I already have a thread opened here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/new-form-of-loan-defaulting-suspicious-hacked-account-1256710
In my situation, the whole story was too plotted, so I decided to hold the account and tried to find a buyer for it.

I have made my own scam accusation thread. Please close this one and consolidate the multiple threads open on this topic.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13700602

If anyone wants to follow the full conversation on this topic here's all the links I can find:

In my Swing altcoin thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13580743

In lending: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/altcoin4life-hacked-account-collateral-4-murderouskirk-swingdev-advice-1341677
In Scam Accusations: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13683665
In Meta: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13683675

Hi Swingdev

Thanks for your reply

I will let you know as i am thinking how i should proceed.

Cheers
Altcoin4life

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hopefully he will keep it safe then. Enjoy my account Altcoin4life. I've put years into it should be a pretty interesting read. Or maybe really boring depends on what you're into.


^That's what it boils down to here. Nothing more nothing less.

Lol, I highly doubt Theymos gives you back your account, Theymos has more important things to do than resolve getting an account back to you because you didn't sign a message because it is partially your fault. It is not the highest on his priority list. Might as well say goodbye to that account and I am 99% sure you don't get it back. Just buy it back.  

Actually Theymos should hopefully return it in time. It's rightfully mine and has been stolen from me. I've sent him the proper proof to reclaim it.

The fact that it was sold to Altcoin4life as collateral for a scam loan does not change my rightful claim over it. Nor does the debt of his bad loan transfer from the scammer to me.

His position is unfortunate yes, I do truly feel bad for his loss as I've been scammed for a decent chunk of btc in the past as well. But I accepted that I was fooled, took blame, got smarter and moved on.

I will say I'm glad he's publicly claimed possession of it. That way my community knows where the dev account is and can hopefully trust in his rep / credibility to keep it safe.

If he does not help me recover my account then I have no reason to consider tipping him as my portfolio grows, or leaving him any sort of positive rep and review.

If he does return the account, I have already stated I will leave a positive review of his credibility and tip him for the favor if/when my portfolio grows.

At this point he's trying to place the blame for his mistake on me. Demanding I send him bitcoin before returning the account, then more after is an unprofessional request. It's his only chance at getting a return on his investment and I was concerned it would boil down to this.

If he wants to help he can help. If not we all know where the account is and I'll cross my fingers that Theymos recovers it for me. But trying to sell my stolen account to me isn't going to happen, and frankly just doesn't sit right with me.

Well... having solved the issue of signing a message brings both of you back to the original issue.

Altcoin4Life obtained the Murderouskirk account in good faith, as a collateral for a loan. They do not deserve to take the loss. Swingdev lost the account due to a hack. They do not deserve to take the loss either.

No admin is going to resolve this for you two. The only way out is by the two of you sticking your heads together and working it out. If you can't then things will remain as they are now.

No worries. You guys were right and I appreciate the explaining. I was wrong for being under the impression that both Theymos and Altcoin4life wanted blank digital signatures. You can understand why I saw this as a ridiculous security risk and simply refused from that perspective.

Altcoin4life has decided to try to sell me my account back. I'm going to try my luck with Theymos for a while.

it has been quoted and it clearly states: with using my signed message

I also am sorry for being rude at first.But this was what i was asking for.

Side note. You should probably remove the 10btc bounty you put out there for anyone that can hack your account.. No need to make yourself a target to prove a successfully proven point.

Just my 2 cents.

ill take this as your word

While I agree with you, I also place some of the blame on Bitcointalk.org. Regardless of how secure of a password I put on my account, if I get phished or keylogged that's it my account is gone. Without 2fa accounts simply are not secure.

I've added 2fa to all my email accounts following this event. Hopefully that will help, it seems like this is the only way to somewhat get 2fa on my account.

And I do intend to pass some BTC towards Altcoin4life for the recovery should my portfolio ever grow again. His loss prevented my entire community from malicious attacks via impersonation and evil edits. It's also potentially led to the recovery of my account. Currently I have less than 0.1 liquid btc to trade with sadly. For now the best I can do is give him favorable feedback.

just as a hint: i think altcoin4life will return the account to you, because its the rigth thing. but keep in mind: its costs him 0.13BTC because you didnt secure your account. however its was hacked, part of it was you fault. i think you both should discuss this in private afterwards.

i know exactly how it feels, because the same thing happend to me when i started to loaning/escrowing

verified with electrum!

I'll just go ahead and post now that I understand it's secure with an attached message.

-----BEGIN BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----
I am the real owner of the account MurderousKirk. Today is 1/26/16 8:00PM EST. I misunderstood the signature process and am now posting this to secure my account from Altcoin4life.
-----BEGIN SIGNATURE-----
1E6soVzn7Z5NGguwD9sZfXkVmn8a51Cg71
H1mNchP2wcPFHiIdMigU/j2kX9Jlm6d+jXSEOLoc2XyxKU8d2IpSkkPaSyf2acDb6b0f4bOCR7p+CjoHq+VWm50=
-----END BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Location of addy: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12788990

Please read a couple posts up.

Also I never made a scam accusation thread. I just messaged theymos and the guy that actually has access to my account. The thought never crossed my mind, especially since Altcoin4life asked me to keep the conversation private.


Dude it's all good. I was getting very frustrated as well. Thank you for continuing to try. Misunderstandings happen.

Edit* Adding this final quote so Altcoin4life sees it page 2.

sorry i sounded mad, i didnt notice you thougth you should send the same messag to altcoin4life. i was about to bite into my desk

Sorry swingdev.But sending coins to an address does makes you an owner but it is still not secured . WHY?

What if later on Altcoin4life come on saying at sometime that he was in hold of the account as collateral.Is that transaction a valid proof ? OFFCOURSE NOT

And also if you were being scammed or hacked and you realised it on1/17/16 .WHERE THE HELL IS THE SCAM ACCUSATION THREAD?
I think you are also not a fool to not  to make a scam accusation thread to warn other guys in forum.Also i can see you gave red trust to the hacked account without reference.How can you think that someone gonna believe those feedback without reference when it is the case of scam ?.

Also i don't find a valid reason behind not signing a message .If you hold the address and can send coins youncan also for sure sign a message.

Thank you. This is what I was looking for. That is a perfectly logical reason for me to supply a signed message.


Thanks whywefight, I appreciate the help.

I am glad you got it now

No hard feelings

You're a bit overbearing here SwingDev. While Altcoin4life may not have been cautious enough with accepting the loan all of this is because your account got hacked.

I can understand that Altcoin4life is extra cautious now, since they've just been tricked. It seems like a good idea for them to get some input from the community to make sure they're going to make the right decision.


Because it's much easier to trick someone into sending some satoshis to a specific address than it is to get them to sign a message stating their account was hacked and they're the original owner?

Edit* I've misunderstood that Theymos asks for a non-empty signed message. I understand now.


Absolutely not. Signed messages were invented to prove ownership and access to a particular address. It has been picked up by bitcointalk in combination with an aged post of the address to prove ownership over the account. Any signed message combined with proper post proves ownership. What makes you think posting different signed massages is any less proof?

Let me be clear, you asking for

"I am the real owner of the account [PUTYOURNAMEHERE] today is [DATE]"

Is the first logical thing I've heard. Up until this point I've been asked for a generic signed message.

Theymos recovers with empty signed messages, so including info does make sense as a means of proof between users. An empty signed message is as good as posting your recovery credentials.

[EDIT - this was the root of the misunderstanding. I was under the impression that theymos requests empty signed messages, and that Altcoin4Life was too. He did ask me to include "any message" in the signature and I failed to notice. I actually sent Theymos an empty signed message on accident.]

If Altcoin4life makes a public post guaranteeing the return of the account with a non-empty signed message I will send it to him and post a positive review of his credibility, with explanation of the misunderstanding on my end.

I'd also like to note that you've all still failed to give any reason that this is better than a transaction.

(If anything this misunderstanding is proof that I have never dealt with bitcoin / account loans)

Okay first of all, if you are developing a coin, please stop it as your knowledge about basics is unbelievable. Do all your future users, investors and bagholders a favour. stop it.

By signing a message you proof ownership. If you sign a random message when asked, it states you are the owner. Like i said before: YOU SHOULD NOT SEND ALTCOIN4LIFE THE SAME MESSAGE YOU SENT THEYMOS!!!!

This should be clear. If you really think one of the messages would enable you to get my account, i beg on my knees please do so. Please do it! NOW! Do you think signing a message was invented to recover bitcointalk accounts??? ffs... as a lender i would say: no signed message, no return. If you sent a message to theymos and you do not understand how it works, wait till you get a reply. We all tried but you dont want to understand.

I will not provide my account recovery details to other users on this forum. I refuse to do this.

I have proven ownership over the account with a transaction.

A signed message does nothing to improve credibility.

I simply cannot make this any clearer and I don't understand why you guys demand I give my account recovery details.

Please explain to me why you are demanding account recovery information after I have proven ownership.

read the above posts and you will see why... did you ask him to sign a certain message?

Hi everyone just to let you know  that swingdev has still not given a signed message from an old staked address.

But he has sent me 0.0001 BTC to my normal repayment address 1HbPkpQiKgq48mCpL5BTxyVsHf4fjM8uop - Proof is below:

https://blockchain.info/tx/ccae00b48dd1d0a7f80897fc063b469f16ee9c45f09ddb6450a0fe153b6dae74


If he has now proven??? that he owns the old staked address 1E6soVzn7Z5NGguwD9sZfXkVmn8a51Cg71  that was posted here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12788990

WHY CAN HE NOT JUST SIGN A MESSAGE FROM THIS ADDRESS? DOES THIS PROVE HE OWNS THE ADDRESS AS HE HAS MADE A PAYMENT FROM IT?

SWINGDEV, PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS THAT I HAVE ASKED MULTIPLE TIMES NOW.... WHERE IS THE SIGNED MESSAGE ?

Thanks
Altcoin4life

Mate, we are willing to help you but let me reformat your quote:

You are amazingly stupid.

No one is gonna do shit with the messages i provided. I am granting you permission to try to get my account and if you manage to do it, by using one of my signed messages, i will pay you a bounty of 10BTC. On top, you can keep my account.

One last try, sign a message:

I am the real owner of the account [PUTYOURNAMEHERE] today is [DATE]

And i am sure Altcoin4life will give you the account back. If you dont understand how signing message works, you dont deserve a Hero Member Account. Sorry to say this...

The fun part is, you dont send the message theymos wants to altcoin4life, you would need to send a DIFFERENT text to altcoin4life. This will be amazing when you realize how you made your self looking.

You sir, just made my day.

This is amazingly stupid.

I'm not into the account stealing game but in case anyone wants to try for the account whywefight he just gave you his account recovery information.

Just go here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/recovering-hacked-accounts-or-accounts-with-lost-passwords-497545

Format the info he just gave you how Theymos wants it and send him a PM with it.

Literally the only thing stopping whywefight from getting his account stolen is the same thing that's preventing me from recovering mine. Theymos not checking his inbox and processing what I imagine is an overwhelming amount of recovery requests. If you get lucky he might read your PM and give you whywefight.

Brilliant..  

(How do you guys not comprehend this? Just because the account recovery on this site is awful does not mean it's ok to gamble on the fact that theymos will never return accounts. Giving your digital signature is the same as giving someone your proof of ownership. I can't for the life of me understand this line of thinking and how there's an entire section of this forum that encourages giving your recovery information away. I mean seriously what the hell?)

Anyway that's irrelevant. I've proven to be the owner of the account. If anyone can tell me what a digital signature proves over my transaction that I've already sent Altcoin4life I will consider your argument.

Please return my account Altcoin4life so I can secure my currency and prevent malicious changes. I understand your hesitation man, I do. But this has gone on long enough. You know damn well you gave a loan to a hacked account, and that I'm the proper owner. You have literally nothing to gain from keeping it. Returning it is a sign of professionalism and trustworthy actions. Keeping it is a sign of greed and punishing me for an account thief tricking you.

What's the point in keeping it? Why wont you give my account back after I've proven with both solid evidence and circumstantially it's mine?

Please return the account and let me promote how trustworthy and professional you are, over the alternative.

Dude....


proof of me signing this address and using it for all proof of ownership -> https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12036740

Oh have a look, i have a public signed message more than 40 times here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12055802


Now, go claim my account...

How is that bullshit? Anyone with a signed message can request account recovery from Theymos. I will absolutely not give other users this information, and have proven ownership with

THIS TRANSACTION:

https://blockchain.info/address/1E6soVzn7Z5NGguwD9sZfXkVmn8a51Cg71

If you don't believe this compromises your account make a public post with a signed message and a link to where you posted the addy, then just wait for your aaccount to vanish from your hands. To say otherwise and encourage users to spread their digital signatures is immensely foolish and irresponsible.

What does a digital signature prove that a transaction does not? Also I couldn't care less if it's basic lending practice (irresponsible as it is). I never asked for a loan.

thats the biggest bullshit i have ever read on this forum... and you should know this if you are the owner of a hero account...

just sign a message that your are the old owner. why is it that hard? thats basics when it comes to lending. check the lending sections. thats what signed message are for, to proof you are in controll of an wallet/address

yes sending shows it do, but if i were him, i would demand a signed message. same will theymos do.

Well since you made two threads I'll put my response here as well.


Alright. Now this is really starting to frustrate me Altcoin4life. Please return my developer / hero account already and stop finding ways to procrastinate.

I'm assuming you made this post as a result of me telling you I was planning to write up a report on the events surrounding my stolen account. You wanted to get out a post before I did and sure I can understand this, but I have THOROUGHLY proven the Hero / Developer account MurderousKirk that you paid 0.13 BTC for is in fact mine.

Lets waste even more time on this and run through the events from my perspective shall we?

1/17/16 - I return from a short hiatus (away since the third) during which I've been busy trying to get myself an income to live on. You know, real life important distractions. I come back to find I cannot log in, and there is no info about my account tied to my email anymore. I check the account to see that starting on the 14'th there are posts that I have not made, apparently trying to scam people and get loans. It should be noted that this is completely unusual behavior for my account. I've spent years building my reputation in the cryptocurrency scene on bitcointalk, my own slack group CryptoCommunity with hundreds of members, and on twitter. I have NEVER asked a single person for a loan and have on multiple occasions strongly encouraged users to NEVER participate in 'back room' trades. I strongly advocate users to ONLY exchange cryptos on a functioning exchange.

So I warn the holders of my currency that the developer account was compromised and start digging through the post history to see that Altcoin4life has paid a user 0.13 BTC for the account to be used as collateral on a loan. "HOORAY! A trusted member of the community has recovered my account for me! This is great hopefully no more malicious activity will happen! I'll notify them immediately" I think to myself.

So I post in his thread letting him know.


So I get a PM from Altcoin4life asking me not to post anymore in his thread. He seems like he's quite willing to work with me.


He finally agrees to let me prove ownership by sending coins from the aged bitcoin account to his. He also repeatedly demands my digital signature.


This is awful advice. I have proven ownership by sending btc from the aged bitcoint account to his.

NEVER GIVE YOUR DIGITAL TO ANOTHER USER IF YOU CARE ABOUT ITS SECURITY! DOING SO PERMANENTLY ALLOWS ACCOUNT THEFT REGARDLESS OF PASSWORD AND EMAIL CHANGES! ONLY GIVE YOUR SIGNATURES TO THEYMOS.

The loan requirements are ridiculous to demand signatures and are probably the cause of a large amount of stolen accounts. A simple transaction proves control over the address just fine without compromising the account permanantly.

Hi thanks for your advice, it looks like a made a mistake and did not do my research properly on the borrower.

I may have missed important red flags about this borrower.

Looks like it is a mistake that i have paid for and i will have to be much more careful next time.

Cheers
Altcoin4life

Yeah agreed with you @zazarb .

@OP. You are a Hero Member and you should by now know all the things about how lending things works.Please go through all stickies.

And accept a bitcoin address staked 3 months old from next time.

Also you stated that you didnt suspected him at first. So did you got a time to check his last posts.You missed one post by mexxer-2 which was a warning.Post was made 2 hours before you approved the loan

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=post;msg=13685016;topic=1341682.0 Check this

ATM you can only request ECUAMOBI to remove that trust. Thats all what you can do now.


Well if he is saying that he can send few coins(that means he owns the address) then obviously he can go with signing a message.Did he gave any reason for not signing a message?

Also I would like to recommend you to not give the account back.Let theymos check the thing.

Also i would point out some main things:-

1)How did the guy scammed the original owner of murderouskirk?? If he was being hacked ask for any thread that he might have made announcing his account was hacked or scam accusation in case of scam (Check whether the thread was made before the date of 14th january-date on which you gave loan)

2)The original owner SwingDev is a newbie and was just created on 17th january that was 3 days after you approved the loan . I suspect that Swingdev is murderouskirk himself . And i also think he had planned all thing up to make the negative feedback removed by showing that it was being hacked.

demand a signed message from the old owner. if he contacts theymos because his account was hacked, he needs to sign one anyways.

also like zazarab said, never take accounts that cant sign the oldest address you can find.

I think  first of all you fault that take account which signed message with "fresh" btc address.
the situation is complex and difficult to find a fair solution for both sides.

p.s. don't need create new topic, you can move it.

Hi everyone.

This is the lender Altcoin4life and i am looking for some advice regarding a situation i have regarding a hacked account i hold collateral for. I recently gave a loan to the user murderouskirk - https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/murderouskirk-182223 for the amount of 0.13 BTC. My lending thread is below (LOAN #16 IN MY LEDGER AT TOP):

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1295650.0;all

The borrower murderouskirk was supposed to repay his loan on 20 Jan he is now overdue.


When i gave this loan i did not suspect anything and thought he was a legitimate borrower, i took over account as collateral and he provided a signed message here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13554319

His trust looked ok, i transferred the coins to the borrower soon after securing account as collateral.




Within 12 hours of me sending of the money i started seeing negative trust being given against murderouskirk, people saying he tried to scam them, his trust became -2 neg???

PLEASE NOTE THE NEGS HAPPENED AFTER I GAVE COINS, AT THE TIME OF AGREEMENT THERE WERE NO NEGS.




After about 5 days a user called SwingDev https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/swingdev-730429 contacted me by PM, and said he was the original owner of the account murderouskirk and that he was scammed. . I told swing that as the repayment date has not arrived, we should wait. Now the date has passed with no repayment.

I asked him for proof that swingdev was the real owner he said he could not find a staked address....... now a few days ago he said..... he had found an address here

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12788990

1E6soVzn7Z5NGguwD9sZfXkVmn8a51Cg71






I asked that he should send me a signed message from this address 1E6soVzn7Z5NGguwD9sZfXkVmn8a51Cg71 , he has refused to provide a signed message and is saying that he can send a  few small coins from this address to me instead, this will prove he owns the address, BUT HE IS REFUSING TO GIVE A SIGNED MESSAGE???




From the beginning i advised swingdev he should contact theymos with a hacked account report, he has said he is hesitant as he has heard theymos does not respond and that many people do not get their account back..... NOW HE HAS RECENTLY SENT A REPORT TO THEYMOS A FEW DAYS AGO.





So i wanted to ask lenders especially

Shall i give back the account of murderouskirk to swingdev? or shall i just wait until theymos checks this out and hands it over to the real owner?

Swingdev is REFUSING to give a signed message so am not sure what to do?

Please can i get opinions on this situation from experienced users.

Thanks
Altcoin4life