Topic: American Justice? (Read 4456 times)

When the cops are allowed and even encouraged to lie to people to obtain "confessions" and statements, the answer is a resounding YES!

Well, this thread has gone way off topic. I still don't see how this ties in to him being unjustly accused based on his being Muslim. It is a well-known fact that many law enforcement officials use brutal tactics to get confessions, and that many times these are false confessions. But I still don't believe that it is because he is Muslim.

Yep.


Yes, I am well aware of the fact that many Israelis are very intolerant and hostile towards Christians too. I'm certainly not taking one side or the other in the struggle.


It's not that one single incident that I can't fathom. There is a very long list of violence conducted in the name of Islam in the last decade or two that I can't fathom.


What story are you talking about?

OP, I don't agree with your arguments in this thread....but I do respect you for taking time to listen to our opposing arguments and changing the thread title.  Kudos to you on that!

I respect you for defending your stance. I don't agree with what you have posted, and you don't agree with what I have posted. That's fine. How many Muslims have done those things I stated? Numerous. You see it in the news every day. The last one about the Muslim running people over with the van, I see you posted just dots as if to say you might not know what I am referring too. If not, it happened just the other day in Jerusalem. A Palestinian man did it on three separate occasions in one night. He targeted Israeli people and at least one person has died so far as a result. I'm sure it will not be a one time thing. 

Give you an example? All of it! Everything you have posted has been your own opinion. Nothing was substantiated by credible sources. NY Daily News? Hardly. Completely left leaning tabloid crap which focuses way too much on celebrity gossip than real news.

I'm not asking you to pretend anything. I'm asking you to take a good, unbiased look at the facts when it comes to how Muslims are really treated in the U.S. Of course many people look at them with suspicion. It is unfortunate, but well-deserved based on the current state of affairs. How many Christians or Jews have committed suicide bombings lately? How many Christians or Jews have kidnapped school girls and forced them to convert under threat of death lately? How many Christians or Jews have kidnapped and beheaded people lately? How many Christians or Jews have run innocent, unsuspecting people down with vehicles lately? Now ask those same questions about Muslims. So is it any wonder that they are watched so closely and "cataloged"?

I have been in the military for 19 years and have spent quite a lot of time in the Middle East and North Africa. I can tell you that from the interactions I have had with many Muslims is that yes, most of them are quite friendly and tolerant... up to a point. They are real quick to turn confrontational and intolerant if they find out you are Christian. And don't you dare say or do anything that might offend them or Islam. Then the true colors of hatred and intolerance will show.

You want to know what I was referring to on youtube? There are many videos posted of some Christian activists who were peacefully demonstrating at an Arab International Festival in Dearborn, MI back in 2012. Dearborn has a huge Muslim population. This being the United States of America should mean that not only should anyone be able to attend the festival, but if someone wants to protest, then that is their Constitutionally protected right. Basically, anyone who was not Arab and not Muslim was greeted with hostility. The cops were there to try to keep the peace because they knew good and well that there were tensions. The Christian activists showed up. They were not shouting or insulting the Muslims or the Islamic faith at all.
It didn't take too long before the Muslims started shouting insults at the Christians. Insulting the Bible. Insulting Jesus. Insulting the Christian faith. Then the rocks and bottles started flying. The Muslims started throwing rocks, bottles, plastic crates... anything they could get their hands on. Several of the protesters were hit, spit on, etc. Why? Because they were Christians.
The cops told the protesters to leave, followed them down the road, pulled them over and then arrested them. Why? They didn't break any laws. They were the ones assaulted, yet they were the ones who were arrested? What sense does that make?

I can see clearly that your OP was meant as nothing more than to incite hatred toward a Christian faith. You claim to be Jewish, yet you are adamantly sticking up for Muslims and trying to imply that they are so unfairly treated in the U.S. based solely on their religion.

I said before that you have posted nothing more than heresay. Now I'm changing it to you are talking out of your ass for the sole purpose of inciting hatred.

It is ridiculous for the OP to inject a group (faith in this case) into his argument when it has nothing to do with anything.

Would it be proper to title this thread "Gay Murder Mystery" if this case was in San Francisco?

or

"African American Murder Mystery" if the crime was in Detroit, MI?

or

"Jewish Murder Mystery" was in Kiryas Joel, NY?


OP is just trying to inflame readers with a sensationalizing headline.  The argument that the city has a high population of Mormons has no relevance to the case.  The facts (as I know them) is a little girl was murdered and they found her in the bathroom of a neighboring apartment.  Esar Met allegedly confessed to the crime when question by the police.  The additional alleged facts posted by the OP on this forum are just theories until evidence is presented in a court of law.  If any of the OP's theories could be confirmed, it is not going to do any good ranting about it on a bitcoin forum.  If I had hard facts I would make sure the courts knew about it and probably the local (and maybe national) press was made aware.  

Everything you stated is heresay based on nothing more than your own opinion. You are certainly entitled to that, but you have no idea if your opinion is true. Was Mr. Met a U.S. citizen? I would speculate that his citizenship would play a bigger role than his religion.

You say that right now police can do things to Muslims that they can not do to others. What particular things are you referring to? Any links to back up that claim? I think if anything else that Muslims are given more free rein here than other religions are. Take a look on YouTube and see what the Muslims in Dearborn, Michigan can get away with.

But again, what does the religious affiliation have to do with this? Why point it out? It has zero bearing on the who, what, when, where, and why of the situation. I think that was the original intent of Singlebyte's question.

Guilty.

BTW, what does this have to do with Mormons?  Is this your way to stoke the fire and use a smoke screen? Nobody (victim or accused) were Mormons.  The accused admitted at the time to the crime. If you have clear evidence that supports your theory then submit it to the defense lawyers.   Website propaganda is useless.

From a newspaper at the time of killing:

KUTV 2 News
4/6/2008

SALT LAKE CITY - The man who allegedly kidnapped and killed a 7-year-old Utah girl might officially be charged with murder on Monday.

Esar Met, 21, was arrested a day after the body of Hser Ner Moo was found in a South Salt Lake apartment. According to authorities, he confessed to killing the Burmese immigrant -- who arrived in Utah with her family just last year.

Salt Lake City prosecutors can file aggravated homicide charges against Esar as early as Monday, which would likely accompany a kidnapping and an evidence-tampering charge.

The girl disappeared on Mar. 30 from her family's home in South Salt Lake. Officials said the girl was last seen at approximately 2:00 p.m. that day and worried family members contacted authorities about four hours later.

A thorough search of the entire area was conducted by South Salt Lake police but the girl's body was not found until nearly 30-hours later. The body was finally located inside a bathroom of a neighboring apartment -- and five people from inside the unit were taken into custody.

Esar, though, is the only one authorities believe had a hand in the girl's death. Following his capture, police said he admitted to forcing the girl into his apartment and causing her death.

Esar emigrated from Thailand to the United States just last month and had been in Utah for less than five weeks. Authorities believe that he tried to keep Hser Ner Moo inside of his apartment by force, but physically caused injury when she did not comply. It is believed those physical injuries resulted in her death.

If the police requests that someone open their door, it is not a sign of wrongdoing that they did not answer. I would personally not answer the door for the police if they were to knock on my door, regardless of if I had just committed a crime. I think the same is true for many other people. It is likely that immigrants would be skeptical of the police. You are going to need to present more concrete evidence against the roommates if you are going to accuse them of killing the girl. There is more evidence against Esar then there is against the roommates. I would say that the fact they did not answer the door would not be enough to give even reasonable doubt that Esar is not guilty. 
If you can give concrete evidence to link a law enforcement officer that can connect the two cases then it should strengthen your argument.
You need to say what specifically was said by the translator and what the translator should have said. All you say is that the translator did not properly translate what was being said, you need to be more specific. If what was specifically said is posted then it can be shown that testimony/evidence should be thrown out. 
The DA did not hold him while he was awaiting trial. The court/judge who ordered that he be held pending trial is the entity that held him pending trial.

I am not sure what the process is for a DA to get his job in Utah (getting elected vs. being appointed) however If you think the DA is 100% not going to right his wrong, then I would suggest that you make an effort to have him replaced, either by electing a new DA or by having a new one appointed (whichever one would apply)

Do you really think that the DA was acting with criminal intent? I think he should be given the benefit of the doubt that "his eyes may have been blurred" by a number of things, including the possibility that he was under pressure to get the case though his pipeline and get someone behind bars. If he was not acting with criminal intent, do you think he might look at the facts of the case differently if people essentially forced him to look at the facts again? It is also possible that there is a different DA now, who has no interest in breaking the law (if you assume the previous DA was acting with criminal intent).

Also if you do assume that the DA was acting with criminal intent, then I would suggest that you look at some of the other cases handled by the DA. If he was breaking the law in this case, then I would find it very unlikely that this is the only case that he broke the law in. You may be able to give your arrangement more credibility if you find other irregularities in his other cases. 

You mentioned that you think one of Esar Met's roommates may have killed that girl. I would suggest posting some kind of evidence (even if circumstantial) against his roommates on your website. Even if the evidence is something that they did after the fact (like committed violent crimes many years after Esar was arrested) it could help your theory. If you can't find anything at all on any of his roommates then what you are saying is nothing more then speculation.

You said that there was an issue with the translator making inaccurate translations. I would suggest that you focus more on this. You should see if you can find exactly what the English translation of what the translator was saying, and what he should have been saying if he was translating correctly. You should also try to find any kind of case law when a conviction was overturned when there was a similar translation issue.

I have done some research on hobocoins, have downloaded the wallet and my address is F2h2hjr4DMcVRBzdNzCyXVHiFL5CQbcLyt

If the translation was materially off then it could be grounds for appeal. The appellate court would hear this evidence of potential wrongdoing and would make the determination if this would have impacted the case.

Maybe I should rephrase my suggestion. You should give only facts and analysis as to what happened, and let the reader make their own conclusion (instead of making the conclusion for them). Instead of saying the evidence was invalid, you should say it is questionable, then when you give the facts regarding the evidence the reader can make their own conclusion as to if the evidence is invalid or not.

I would also suggest that you add contact information of the DA who could try to have the case reopened so people who believe your conclusion can contact him and voice their opinion. It would probably also not hurt to add a donation link for people to donate to further your cause.

I also noticed that you have several sources on the various pages at the bottom, but you do not have any of your content annotated^[1]. 

^[1]An annotation is when you put a number or a letter next to a statement of fact and at the bottom you will put the same letter/number next to the link or source of your fact.

If you use annotations it will make it much easier for someone to check your statements for accuracy

I honestly looked at the first page only. That was as hooked as the website was able to get me, as I was fairly certain that based on the statement that you claim there no was valid evidence against him that the rest of the site would not be balanced.

You need to remember that it is not only the police that are involved in a criminal court case. The police will generally investigate the facts and make an arrest (this is usually the case, however when there are conflicts of interest, sometimes other law enforcement bodies will handle this), once this happens, the DA will make the decision to charge a defendant based on the information gained by the police, then the judge will need to make the decision to allow the case to move to trial, once there is a trial the jury will need to find the defendant guilty of the crime they are accused of. 

The first/main page mentions that there is DNA evidence against him. I am sorry to say that this is very strong evidence against him. The website does not elaborate, however one of your threads does say that you hypothesize that his DNA got under her fingernails from a piggy back ride, however I would not buy this theory as in order for DNA to get under someone's fingernails like this there will need to be more then just horse play, and a lot more. 

My primary concern about your website is the fact that it is not very balanced. I think it is fair to say that some of the evidence may be questioned (you clearly feel that the legal conclusion is incorrect) however I think that most people would conclude that at least some evidence is valid.

I would say that even if a point of view hurts your goal of getting Mr Met's conviction reversed, you should present the prosecutions side as to why they tried him and why they think he was guilty. Without this side of the story, your argument loses it's potential credibility.

EDIT: Bounty HBN address: EmXAQgZRw8waTRp8NqtMix1jgx2JM2yXHE

For a quick intro view http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=285_1418952250 (four short clips, a minute or two each).

For all of the videos, visit http://www.liveleak.com/c/FleaSpirit

On March 31, 2008 Hser Ner Moo, a 7 year old Utah girl, was murdered.



Hours after the body was found, po!ice had a suspect and a full confession. They said an older neighbor boy, with whom she had been friendly, abused, tortured and killed her.

~On May 14, 2014 Esar Met was sentenced to life in prison without the chance of parole~

But is he actually guilty?

His confession was enough for most people, even though almost nobody had actually seen it.
Esar Met's roommates were also interviewed, police summaries here and here and here.
A written summary of the first part of the confession is here

Warning. Some of the material is offensive.

Please compare the confession to the prosecutor's closing statement at trial, that Hser was "sexually assaulted, repeatedly beaten, strangled, had her arm bent and broken, and ultimately killed by a massive blow or blows to her chest,"

Those injuries did occur. And Met did confess. But something doesn't add up.
The translator also seems to be doing a lot more than simply translating.
Can you figure it out?

                                     LiveLeak       YouTube
Part 1 (30 minutes) liveleak.com  or  youtube.com
Part 2 (32 minutes) liveleak.com  or  youtube.com
Part 3 (25 minutes) liveleak.com  or  youtube.com
Part 4 (30 minutes) liveleak.com  or  youtube.com
Part 5 (23 minutes) liveleak.com  or  youtube.com

False confessions are a serious problem in America.
- - - -

Please look at the evidence carefully.
Each item used to convict Mr Met is not quite as it seems at first glance.

In both cases the suspects have been expertly managed, so the appearance of guilt can be maintained.
Esar Met admits his confession was false. But nobody outside the court system had seen his confession til now.
Craig Gregerson has refused to discuss the case and his confession, saying only that he believes pornography is bad and he is sorry for what he did. He has expressed excitement about prison, believing it will allow him to get a good education.
Each suspect has limited education and possible developmental issues. Esar Met has been described as possibly retarded.

~Two murders in two years. In the same Salt Lake neighborhood~

Both victims very small children, ages 5 and 7.
Both cases involved massive searches with hundreds of people and police conducting door to door searches.
Both bodies were eventually found about 100 feet from where the children lived, in the basements of neighbors.
Both involved extremely unusual acts of violence.
Both bodies found in or near large plastic bags.



Two people arrested.

Both confessed to FBI interrogators.

The focus here is on Esar Met, because his confession is available, but here are some basics of both cases.

July 16, 2006. Destiny Norton, 5 years old, disappears in a fenced area used as a yard by several neighbors.

At the time, it was claimed all of the houses had been searched repeatedly, including with a speciallly trained dog.

After the body was found inside two plastic bags that were placed in a plastic storage container, the FBI claimed that Gregerson had consented to a search of his home but when an agent had smelled something dead Gregerson had said it was dead rats, so the agents did not pursue the search into the basement. Aside from the FBI version contradicting witness statements it also make not a bit of sense. If an FBI agent smelled something dead in the home of the neighbor of a girl who had been missing for a week he would have been given a search warrant instantly. There are many statements the FBI has put out in this case that seem very improbable.

Also, witnesses claim the FBI did search the entire house more than once.

Numerous people were brought in for polygraphs while Destiny Norton was missing. The polygraph operator wrote a book about his experiences in the case, called Heaven's Hammer. In the book he indicates that he felt Gregerson was guilty and that it was his duty to get him to confess.

A video camera was in place and other interviews this FBI agent conducted that day were videotaped but he did not videotape this one. After reading the snippets of confession in the book, it is clear why.

The FBI agent managed to obtain a written confession from Gregerson, detailing over two pages of his account of what was done. The confession is in Gregerson's handwriting. However it contains legalistic expressions that Gregerson would not be aware of and other strong indications that the words are not Gregerson's.

The confession has never been made public, except for brief excerpts published in the FBI agent's book, much of it information that was later left out of reports about the crime.

The details of the injuries to Destiny Norton are not known. That material was withheld initially to avoid tainting a jury and no details were released after Gregerson agreed to a guilty plea in order to avoid the death penalty.

During the search for Destiny Norton there was significant criticism of how the police and FBI handled the investigation. When the body was found more than a week later, about a hundred feet from where she disappeared, there was more.

The FBI said that Gregerson had never consented to a search of his basement. But neighbor Dylan Wood said he watched as police searched his and Gregerson's apartments, just after Destiny vanished. They were questioned by FBI agents.
"We're sitting out here at the picnic table talking with him and the federal marshals and everything," he said. "We all filled out questionnaires together."

March 30, 2008, Hser Ner Moo, 7 years old, disappears about 15 blocks from where Destiny Norton disappeared.

Police and FBI agents searched every single apartment in the building complex over the next 24 hours. Except one, where no one seemed to be home.

When the body was found in the basement of that apartment, near a large bloody plastic bag, another wave of public anger hit authorities.

But authorities were quick to pacify the public by announcing that they had caught a suspect and he had confessed.

In the fifth video above, near the end, you can see a man come into the confession room and announce he needs photos A.S.A.P. and he needs to get them printed. Newspaper print deadlines were only minutes away.

Unlike the Destiny Norton case, this time the police were not able to keep all of the evidence under wraps.

There was a huge amount of forensic evidence collected in Hser Ner Moo's murder. Fingerprints. DNA. A bloody plastic bag found near the body. And much more.

Almost none of it was used. In fact most of it seems to have disappeared. So what evidence was used to convict Met?

Esar Met was known for giving bicycle rides and piggyback rides to neighbor children. In the days before she died, Hser Ner Moo had a cut on her finger. Apparently 4 drops of that blood fell onto the back of Esar Met's jacket. The crime scene was a bloodbath and the killer left a bloody footprint. He would have been fairly covered with blood. The only blood evidence that could be found involving mr Met were those four drops, arranged in a linear pattern, as with gravity, on the back of his jacket.

Blood evidence not used at trial included a sample of the victim's blood from the crime scene mixed with a small amount of the blood of an unknown male, not mr Met.

Under Hser Ner Moo's fingernails were microscopic skin cell traces, DNA, from a number of people she had contact with before she died, including her family members and Esar Met. This was the second and last piece of DNA evidence used to convict Esar Met.

But when Hser Ner Moo was found she was clutching a handful of hair she had ripped out of her attacker. It's a pretty safe bet there were some roots in that hair that could be tested. But that material ~vanished~

A small amount of DNA from a rape kit swab was also deemed unsuitable for testing.

In the confession, above, Esar Met repeatedly insists that he did not even know the child was dead. But with a little help from the FBI agent he eventually comes around.

He admits that Hser Ner Moo stopped by his apartment around 9am.

But wait.

She had been home all morning and did not disappear until around 2pm.

So the FBI agent reminds him that she came back to his apartment around 2pm.

Now it looks like the confession is on track. The FBI agent asks him how long she was there and Met says a few hours.

But wait.

It is known that the latest Met could have left to go to visit his uncle was an hour after the little girl disappeared.

And on and on.

Met is trying to create a confession that he thinks will satisfy the FBI agent but he is getting the details wrong until the FBI agent tells him what to say. He is taking events from the previous few weeks that really did happen, like Hser watching tv there, and weaving them into a story.

In his closing statement to the jury, the prosecutor was graphic.

Then he said "Use your own common sense, and try not to get too caught up in little details that would make you miss the forest through individual trees... A doubt is not reasonable if it's based on purely speculation or remote possibility.... Don't get caught up in the little details that are not important or significant in this case... When the defense suggests there should be witnesses, that's ridiculous."

No one really expects witnesses. Only evidence.

Is there an explanation for the sloppy police work?

There are a few explanations. Here is one.

After Hser Ner Moo's body was found a medical technician checked her. He said she was completely stiff, rigor mortis had not yet begun to recede.

It is likely that she was still alive when the police started searching, long after Esar Met had left to visit family.
She may even have still been alive well into the night. That's the simple truth.

The police and FBI were under a lot of pressure. Two very small dead children in two years. A lot of serious mistakes made in the first few hours.

They needed a quick confession and they got it.

-  -  -  -  

Six videotaped interviews were done that night. The four roommates, an unknown 5th person and Esar Met.

They are a mix of inconsistencies and absurdities.

One of the roommates came home about an hour eartlier than the others that day, about 4 pm.  He says the four of them watched music videos til 9 pm.

Another was asked if he knew why they were being questioned and he said maybe because one of the roommates spit something on the carpet, betel juice, that looks like blood. In fact the stain was blood, it would be learned later.

One says he knew the girl was missing but didn't want to check the basement.

Another didn't know anything about Hser Ner Moo being missing.

The police had set up a perimeter around the apartments on the night of the first. Through that night and the next day the only apartment where no one answered the door was the apartment where the four roommates were, where the body was.

Esar Met was miles away, visiting family.