Topic: An absurd policy (Read 3315 times)

The lender should be one who is trusted enough to hold your collateral. That is unlikely to happen since if Bitcoin value drops, the alt coin's value should also drop. If you dont trust the lender enough, then use a escrow. Most of them won't risk their reputation to scam in a loan collateral.

I have done deals like this where if the collateral goes up significantly in value relative to the loan I send some of the collateral back. This BTW has nothing to do with USD value. In your example it would be LTC/BTC value that matters.

Ok so lets go over this so far, you say you want protection and 120% collateral to protect in case the coin declines in value right? OK, what happens if today i borrow 10 litecoins from you with a promise topay them back in  30 days and in 29 days bitcoin drops 100 dollars in price and litecoin doubles, what protection does your borrower have against that,? Lending is a two way street is it not so if you are protected as a lender with 120% collateral how is your borrower protected if the value exponentially increases?

Just curious

As far as my take on the laws,TRUST and BELIEVE bro if anyone is doing any kind of lending of any kind of value represented in absolutely any way with the USD, the tax man wants his share, the law man wants his share (licensing offices) and theyb dont care about your or my take on the law, they will find a reason to slap you with fines and court fees. If you base any lending at all on the united states dollar in any way shape or form, you may as well open your own payday loan office and pay for the licenses, because if they find out and want to be pricks about it, they will

USA is already taxing and implementing trading laws on the exchanges that trade the USD market against cryptocurrency, what makes you think they wont impose the same lending laws against a party using fiat values to lend his coins out, AND they are taxing bitcoin income as well in a lot of states already.


This is a great idea,one I use actually.

Then, if it isn't benefiting you, why are you taking the loan.

And, if you aren't taking the loan, why are you complaining?

Seriously this thread makes no sense.

I get the complaints when somebody asks for a loan and somebody downtrusts them simply because they asked. I don't get the complaints when somebody looks for offers for loans, and finds some deals he/she personally isn't willing to accept.

Both sides are acting like brats tbh.

If you don't like a lenders terms, DON'T BORROW FROM HIM.
If you don't like a borrowers terms, DON'T LEND TO HIM.

In neither case, does this say something about the honesty of the person in question.

Interesting theory. Quite ridiculous since I was explicit about the (hypothetical) loan being BTC, but let's play along.


This is basically nonsense interpretation of the law, but let's say you are right. You are now contradicting yourself because above because I explicit was not lending or trading or doing anything else with USD.


If it is a very long term loan this may be reasonable since your ability to pay the loan may be affected by large changes in the purchasing power of the crypto coin (I suspect that's what he means when he refers to the USD value -- he is using that as a proxy for purchasing power).

If you aren't comfortable with the lender you are working with, find another one.

Unfortunately, you said it yourself, altho most of your post relates to the comparison in cryptocoins and their value, the main problem in your post is one little word........."Otherwise I'm not lending money<-----------" what did you say you were not lending again? cryptocoins or "MONEY" the minute you as a lender connect the lending with money, if you are a united states citizen you have broken the law and can be jailed for violation of lending and trust laws, those are the facts, sorry to say. that is how the USA is now able to tax certain trading organizations who deal with US dollars, as long as the trading site does not trade fiat they can do what they want but as soon as they add USD market to their program they are suseptable to the laws and regulations of trading USD, and will be taxed for it.

On a personal note:
Lenders need to be protected, if not for scammers out there this thread and collateral would not be needed. lenders "especially" of altcoins need protections, I am trying to work a deal out with someone right now and am very confused as to how this can benefit the bothof us withut me getting screwed in the end, escrows are nice but in the end I have look out for me, I have more at stake than he does , (and just so i dont seem like an asshole, I am offering well over 120% collateral ion the loan I am looking for) that is why it is hard for me to decide what to do. (I guess my problem is I am using property as collateral and not another coin) But as mentioned above this industry is filled with scammers on both ends, the lending and recieving end, its sad but it is true. But I am borrowing to utilize the coins I am asking for in the crypto wordld, I am investing in the crypto world, and he is basing his judgements on the fiat world, and keeps referring to the USD value of the coins and not their crypto value.

What if the person borrowing the coins is not using it for anything fiat, say like Im borrowing 10,000 dogecoins to trade them for other crypto, and increase my doge, or I am borrowing 50 litecoins to trade on a market, I am not using the coins for fiat purposes, but you are loaning them to me based on fiat values, how does that benefit the borrower? So now he is borrowing and using the coins only in the crypto world yet his rates are based on the fiat value, that makes the lender exactly like a fiat  centralized bank.

Where did you get this crazy idea anyone here is talking about fiat value or dollars?

We're not.

If someone borrows BTC from me and uses LTC as collateral, I couldn't care less about the dollar value of either. But I sure as hell want the collateral (LTC) to always equal or exceed the amount owed (BTC). Therefore I am interested in the volatility of LTC/BTC value, and I will always require extra collateral to cover that risk. Otherwise I'm not lending money to some anonymous person on the internet (who might be a hacked account, bought account, scammer, etc.). It is just not going to happen.

I added a couple lines too so wat scroll up and read and retain

wat

Your not a bank and this lending is for cryptocurrency, if you want to lend CASH and retain its value then get the licenses, pay the taxes and do so, if not base your business structure on what it is and that is cryptocurrency not fiat. You have masked the situation to fit your pockets and all the lenders looking at the lending of altcoins or any crypto coins in this definition above should get out of coins and open your own "PAYDAY CASH LOANS" store down the street.

This is cryptocurrency, when you loan 10 Litecoins out, You get 10 (plus interest) in return PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!!!, adjusting your rates to appease the fiat value is bullshit if you ask me, we didnt borrow 80 dollars off you we borrowed 10 Litecoins.

Dont try and be a bank unless you want them to come in and tell you how to run your lending structure, and tax you for it, and make you get a license and all kinds of other things we are protected from right now. its structures and thoughts like this above that made banks what they are today, if you monkey see the banks charging in the ways they do, and you monkey do what they do you will monkey need a bail out just like them in the future.

And farther more if you are a USA citizen and you base these lending on FIAt you can be jailed actually for illegally running a cash lending business without the licenses and taxes that allow you to be a lender. read the laws on lending before you post.

Just my 2 cents

And FYI the Philippines is the most scandelous, scammer filled, corrupt, opportunist filled country in the world and their loans only require 80% collateral.

+1 - Come on Vod, you have a fellow Scam Buster asking you the same question here. Let's see a response out of you.

Even Tomatocage thinks Vod is wrong:

I've looked through a few topics regarding this, and I can see no direct answer as to what content was deleted. bitcointa.lk seems to be on a backlog and thus missing this. Please let the community know exactly what was deleted, so that we can make decisions for ourselves.

The only answer you've ever provided was "I forgot" yet were still unwilling to remove your negative feedback.

If you insist on keeping a default trust negative on my account, marking me as a scammer, you have an obligation to this community to provide answers to why if someone asks. It's this community that has empowered you to do this and if you fail to answer, abuse it and tap dance around questions, it's the community that will take it away. "I forgot" and "I'm done hashing this" won't work, because you've NEVER hashed it to begin with. Unless your idea of 'hashing' is avoiding the difficult questions.

I've never twisted any of your words, I've only directly quoted you (anyone can go read my posts on you and see this).

You sir, are avoiding the issue, because you're wrong and unwilling to correct it because of your ego and anger that I fought you on it.

Prove me wrong.

I've answered the questions and you've twisted my words.  I'm done hashing this.

Oh Hi Vod!

Care to answer the question people have been asking you in like 5 threads here: What is the question or questions I deleted from my original investment topic that is the basis for your negative feedback?

Try not to dance around the subject this time and avoid it more.

http://bitcointa.lk

I'm not familiar or I already would have posted that against Vod as well to prove he's a 100% liar. Let's ask Smooth, since he's the one who brought it up.

Could you please explain to me where I can find this mirror site?

I encourage anyone to look at that site and get some final proof of Vod being a liar. The only one that deserves any downtrust is him

Where cab I find this site?

Shouldn't it be possible to resolve this by looking at the mirror site that does not delete posts?

Did he scam you? no? Then why the hell did you downtrust him? Its really as simple as that. I could start a thread tomorrow asking for a loan for 1000 BTC. I'm 100% sure I would pay it back (because in all likelyhood I wouldn't use any but a fraction of it). Will I? No, because I know that nobody is going to lend me. If I did, does that somehow make me a scammer? No, it just makes me fond of wasting my own time making a thread that I know will never come to any use.

Best part is that this is not even true guys. I did not delete ANY questions at all. He just made that up. You ask him what questions I delete, he has no response. He makes some assumption that I did just because I had a moderated thread. If you think I'm lying, ask him what question I deleted and you'll see who the real liar is. I've asked him at least a dozen times publicly, he responded once here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/remove-vod-from-defaulttrust-704391 and his answer was "I don't remember" (this was only a day later BTW, so I guess he has Alzheimer's disease too)

Guy is a douche bag with a major ego, totally unwilling to admit to any wrongdoing. Especially when it's gone this far.

I encourage everyone to read the evidence I've posted against him, the lack of evidence and avoidance he's shown in response and then come tell me if this is the stand up guy he pretends to be.

I'll loan you pretty much whatever you want but I want at least 150% collateral.

What is wrong with that?

I gave him negative feedback because he was deleting questions people were asking him in his moderated thread asking for 700btc.  I've hashed this to death already. 

Seriously VOD, I appreciate that you're trying to help the community, but downtrusting someone simply because they're asking for something you think would be unwise to provide is NO REASON to downtrust someone. When people see someone being downtrusted, it implies they've scammed someone,  or defaulted, or broken some promise. Not that they've broken some untold rule that you've made up in your mind. Despite the circlejerk of similarly pointless uptrusting you've enjoyed for doing this, it doesn't "bust scams" it busts the trust system, which just makes scams more likely.

120% is nothing special. If you have intention to pay back you will not loose anything apart what you did borrow plus interest. If you for some reason will have bad luck there is always way to get collateral back.

Its not wonga, if you need loan go ahead and try without collateral.

Sorry everyone, I think Shawn has a little crush on me.   

Hi All,

Here's a few things you should know about Vod:

Vod is a malishous liar on a massive ego trip. He has in anger ruined the accounts of many innocent and trusted members of this community using solicited feedback which he has gotten from some high feedback traders.
Vod refuses answer any questions for the basis of his feedback against me and other members and has even gone as far as to change his feedback against me several times to make it sound worse and worse as I have tried to get answers from him and hash out his reasoning for doing it.
He actually said that he had 'forgotten' what I had done (just two days after it happened) and starting trying to come up with other things to accuse me of.

Here's a great example of Vod getting caught in MULTIPLE lies with proof, then acting like a 10 year old child about it afterward, trying to dismiss everything he had done and then trying to change the subject to avoid answering up: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=704391.new#new

Make sure to read page 2 thoroughly.

I have been an upstanding member of this community with legit trades and positive trust. Vod took it upon himself to single handedly ruin my account over something he cannot even explain to anyone.

Unfortunately some members have been fooled by a guise he's used as a 'scam buster' which is nothing more than a ploy to gain this inner circle trust rating and use it for abusive purposes.

Ask yourself if I would bother to go this far and make this post if I was not injustly and malishously attacked by this nut job.

Moral of the story: Vod lies, has some mental issues going on and should not be trusted. Please take a minute and look for yourself, there's absolutely no need to take my word for it. He's made himself look guilty and foolish plenty. Please decide if you want to trust him or take his advice. I think that you will not want to after reading that thread.

Thanks.

Yep.

You're right.

Worthless.

Even if it is a risk free loan (which it isn't), interest is still charged as the lender has to give up the opportunity cost of BTC. Moreover if you don't like the terms of the loan don't accept it.

I made several loans last year and earlier this year. I have also worked on other loan proposals, including some bigger ones, that didn't happen for various reasons but those reasons did not include the need for appropriate overcollateralization.

The fact is that legitimate uses for lending in a online nearly-trustless environment are very limited, but they do exist. Scams and attempted scams outnumber the legitimate loans, that is for sure.

I still lend from time to time, but only if I have sufficient collateral.  Those are getting very rare.

It's more profitable to just sit on my coins and wait for the price to rise than to lend it out.

Yeah but who is actually lending anymore ? Except for newbies kind enough to ask for collateral first... cough cough.
Their isnt one or 2, probably one legit lender... This isn't 2012 anymore.. Its just scammer-vile from both sides.
Lending forum is a joke and should be shutdown.

The price of most alt coins is not stable in any regard. The additional amount above the amount of the loan is to protect the lender from price declines of the altcoin.

Yes there are scammers on both sides. However, the nature of lending is such that the lenders (people with a lot of excess capital/liquidity) tend to be consistently active for a long term period of time, so their reputations mean a lot more.

If you stick to the experienced lenders this will not be a problem.

Furthermore, on larger deals or if there is a question of lender trustworthiness the collateral can be held by a third party.

I gave a loan against LTC collateral a little while ago, so it does happen.

Was a very small loan though.

Plain wrong.
0% risk for the lender is mandatory, otherwise it is called gambling and appropriate interests should be applied.

I explained the need for overcollateralization (and for the record 120% isn't that much, when using illiquid and volatile assets as collateral, I would like to see more than 120%) here:

If you really scanned this section, you would have noticed a bevy of loan requests offering 20-50% interest, so demanding 120% collateral is well within the norm.

I don't understand why most people lend or borrow money on here. To lend it without collateral is nuts and you'll get scammed eventually even if it's just a small amount and why people lend the little amounts they do with high interest is also silly. I think most of the time people just do these deals to build up some feedback and scam later.

There are threads which offers no collateral loans. They have a few defaults. The purpose of collateral is to reduce the risk of default. Lenders aren't charging high interest, a few loans isn't going to cover one default. It would be a almost certain chance of defaults. Not much lender actually want your collateral. If you default, they wouldn't want to keep it, hence they ask for 120% collateral so they can sell it if you default. The additional 20% is to reduce the risk of alt coin falling below 100% of the loaned value. There isn't use for a lender to ask for 100% alt coin value of bitcoin when alt coin isn't that stable by logic. If they can't get at least 100% of what you loaned in case you default, why would they want to loan you.

If it makes you feel better, most of the people offering loans and asking for collateral are "collateral scammers" i.e they are not going to loan anything, once you give them collateral so they can give you a loan you will not here back from them again.

Regardless, lenders can ask for anything. But, again, most people asking for loans are scammers. So it is pretty high risk.

I am yet to see any one actually use collateral to get a loan.

Most of us are not a pawn shop, and really don't want to own your collateral.
If it happens, it's a hassle and 120% collateral probably wouldn't be enough to make me happy about doing it.

Unless by some miracle, the collateral was something I wouldn't mind owning, then, I would take a more conservative 1:1 approach on covering the loan.

Often highly volatile coins or other risky items have been offered, hence 120%. OP, no one is forcing you or anyone to get a loan and the lender should NOT take all the risk or there will not be many lenders left. Look through the Scam section at the loan defaults.
You don't want to give 120% of a loan in collateral, (that you get back once loan is repaid), don't ask for a loan from that lender. Simple.

120% collateral does not make sense, unless it is in the form of highly illiquid assets.

Wow, so actually he scammed someone for 0.7 BTC or did he get scammed for them? That wouldn't be an honest was to do business then! I don't approve!

Is it to both parties to find a middle way with which they are both happy and can work with ?

Firstly I have no interest in getting a loan!

I like to scan through the site and have been reading lots of topics of people offering loans demanding 120% collateral, while it is up to the lender to create the terms it just seems to be a risk free way to lend - I am of the understanding that it is the lender who should take the risk, hence why charging interest.

Just my (worthless) opinion.