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Topic: ANARCHO CAPITALISM - debate it here! (Read 4243 times)

member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
July 20, 2012, 06:25:56 AM
#80
Having served with many volunteer organizations, my observation is that there is always many who offer to be leaders, but few do the actual work. Ancap would be no different. You would have the many taking advanntage of the few.



Voluntary doesn't mean non profit, it means you agree.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
July 19, 2012, 03:43:29 PM
#79
Having served with many volunteer organizations, my observation is that there is always many who offer to be leaders, but few do the actual work. Ancap would be no different. You would have the many taking advanntage of the few.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 19, 2012, 12:39:25 PM
#78
Some of these allow their clients to have guns, some do not.

I read this line:
Quote
Wil smiled in return, hoping his embarrassment didn't show. Part of his present fame was a company hype that he had come to loathe. "Thank you, uh, Big Al. We feel a special obligation to small police companies that serve no-right-to-bear-arms customers. But you're going to have to tell me more. Why so secretive?"

to mean that Al served customers who believed there was no right to bear arms, so, kinda the other way 'round, he caters to those people, rather than not allowing his customers to have guns. Since it's voluntary, either way, the distinction doesn't really matter, though.
hero member
Activity: 642
Merit: 500
July 19, 2012, 12:29:01 PM
#77
You guys should really read that Vernor Vinge story.
In the ungoverned lands, you may choose to be customer of a protection agency (police force if you will). Some of these allow their clients to have guns, some do not. So you can choose who protects you, and whether you live in a place where (ordinary) people have guns or not.
hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 19, 2012, 05:00:29 AM
#76
Ive got an idea that might be compatible with your political system... Why dont we have zones or areas or cities that allow guns, and those that do not... and see which one people prefer to live in Smiley

If one area is full of thugs, criminals, and violence, I am willing to bet that most people will not desire to live there... but in any case, people have a choice and are thus not coerced....

Well, you're certainly free to, if you can get up enough people, set up one of those "no guns allowed" zones. I would advise that it be a gated and well secured community, since there are still people out there that would simply view that as an easy target, if the community were not well defended.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
July 19, 2012, 04:37:36 AM
#75
Ive got an idea that might be compatible with your political system... Why dont we have zones or areas or cities that allow guns, and those that do not... and see which one people prefer to live in Smiley

If one area is full of thugs, criminals, and violence, I am willing to bet that most people will not desire to live there... but in any case, people have a choice and are thus not coerced....
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 18, 2012, 01:52:48 PM
#74
For a fictionalized account of what might happen if a nation-state invaded an AnCap society, The Ungoverned, by Vernor Vinge is available for free online.

Great read! Vinge is one of my favourite authors. Thanks for the tip. And a good answer to my question as well.

Glad you liked it! You may have been the first to actually read that once I offered it up. That story, I think, may have actually been my first introduction to AnCap. I can't remember if I read TMIAHM first, or that.
hero member
Activity: 642
Merit: 500
July 18, 2012, 06:55:57 AM
#73
For a fictionalized account of what might happen if a nation-state invaded an AnCap society, The Ungoverned, by Vernor Vinge is available for free online.

Great read! Vinge is one of my favourite authors. Thanks for the tip. And a good answer to my question as well.
hero member
Activity: 527
Merit: 500
July 17, 2012, 06:14:17 PM
#72
Is there a mechanism in capitalism to ensure that capitalism is functioning properly?

i.e. something to make sure the market operates in these areas to maintain efficiency:

1) no patents, trademarks, ownership
2) qualifications (i.e. doctors take X years to qualify)
3) freedom of trade in people (visas)
4) land planning (i.e the greenbelt artificially raising prices)

Sadly I think trade needs a little help, it seems under attack from all sides


IP laws are actually a burden on the market.

Government licenses amount to protectionism.

Capitalism functions properly by itself, absent violence.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 17, 2012, 06:04:37 PM
#71
Is there a mechanism in capitalism to ensure that capitalism is functioning properly?

i.e. something to make sure the market operates in these areas to maintain efficiency:

1) no patents, trademarks, ownership
Well, this comes down to property rights. Intellectual property (patents, trademarks, etc) aren't property, they're ideas. Other property, however, would be enforced by protection agencies, also called Rights Enforcement Agencies, or by self or third-party defense.
2) qualifications (i.e. doctors take X years to qualify)
A private qualification industry, not unlike UL for electronics could certainly be set up, and if a need is there for it, will be.
3) freedom of trade in people (visas)
Uh... Borders? Visas? these are all government creations. People would be free to come and go.
4) land planning (i.e the greenbelt artificially raising prices)
As land became more scarce, prices would naturally rise. If a landowner did not want their land developed, they simply would not sell.
hero member
Activity: 900
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Crypto Geek
July 17, 2012, 05:45:05 PM
#70
Is there a mechanism in capitalism to ensure that capitalism is functioning properly?

i.e. something to make sure the market operates in these areas to maintain efficiency:

1) no patents, trademarks, ownership
2) qualifications (i.e. doctors take X years to qualify)
3) freedom of trade in people (visas)
4) land planning (i.e the greenbelt artificially raising prices)

Sadly I think trade needs a little help, it seems under attack from all sides
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 17, 2012, 05:36:01 PM
#69
There are no taxpayers in ancapistan,

before != after

in fact probably this happened many times in history already and brought us into the mess we're in  Cheesy

Take a look at Pennsylvania's early history. (to make it easy, here's the link: https://www.mises.org/daily/1865)
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1007
July 17, 2012, 05:29:40 PM
#68
There are no taxpayers in ancapistan,

before != after

in fact probably this happened many times in history already and brought us into the mess we're in  Cheesy
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
July 17, 2012, 04:47:18 PM
#67
I'm not just talking about the "guards" within the ancap society. But the U.S. army. The Chinese. The arabs. The lithuanians. Let's say Greece collapses and turns ancap. What's to stop their neighbours from taking over?




I dont think you realize just how expensive violence is. The only time violence is profitable is if you can take over a tax base. There are no taxpayers in ancapistan, so violence is a big money sink. Furthermore, the largest army in the world could not subject Afghanistan or Vietnam to their will, how will a person with no tax revenue at all be able to take any region over if the defenders use guerilla warfare?
hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 17, 2012, 01:15:42 PM
#66
Furthermore, if a society is ancap, what is there to "take over" anyway? There would be no government to take over the reins from. Just a bunch of armed people who love freedom - how are they going to keep such an area occupied?

For a fictionalized account of what might happen if a nation-state invaded an AnCap society, The Ungoverned, by Vernor Vinge is available for free online.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003
July 17, 2012, 09:49:45 AM
#65
I'm not just talking about the "guards" within the ancap society. But the U.S. army. The Chinese. The arabs. The lithuanians. Let's say Greece collapses and turns ancap. What's to stop their neighbours from taking over?


If bitcoin succeeds as a decentralized currency, there won't be any states left to "take over".

Furthermore, if a society is ancap, what is there to "take over" anyway? There would be no government to take over the reins from. Just a bunch of armed people who love freedom - how are they going to keep such an area occupied?
hero member
Activity: 642
Merit: 500
July 17, 2012, 08:38:58 AM
#64
I'm not just talking about the "guards" within the ancap society. But the U.S. army. The Chinese. The arabs. The lithuanians. Let's say Greece collapses and turns ancap. What's to stop their neighbours from taking over?
hero member
Activity: 527
Merit: 500
July 16, 2012, 06:38:20 PM
#63
There's a lot of choices in life. Just because you choose to be nice, doesn't require anyone else to reciprocate.

No, of course not. Of course, if they choose to initiate force, I am allowed to reciprocate.

Who allows it? Certainly not your aggressor. And to what degree are you capable of reciprocating? Certainly everyone cannot reciprocate effectively in an equal manner.

No one "allows it". The point is that there is no institution sanctioned with the right to initiate force that can prevent it.
hero member
Activity: 527
Merit: 500
July 16, 2012, 06:34:07 PM
#62
Yes yes. Natural monopolies. I am half way through the machinery of freedom. A natural monopoly could change.

Even if it could work, the problem is society. Society would have to accept it. That is a huge jump down in authoritarianism. How does one get to anarcho capitalism? Too many things have to be just so for it to work.

We get there one by having this conversation. one person at a time.

What are the "too many things" that have to be just so? In my opinion, all we need is for people to accept that initiation of force is wrong/counterproductive. Most people already believe this, but have blinders on when it comes to the state.

Once people see that the state is just institutionalised violence established with the premise of solving social problems, it will naturally fall away.

Bitcoin will also help allot (see cryptoananarchist post).

As soon as a natural monopoly "changes" it loses to competition. Without the violence of the state to back it up, it has to cater to is customers.
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
July 16, 2012, 05:29:38 PM
#61
Yes yes. Natural monopolies. I am half way through the machinery of freedom. A natural monopoly could change.

Even if it could work, the problem is society. Society would have to accept it. That is a huge jump down in authoritarianism. How does one get to anarcho capitalism? Too many things have to be just so for it to work.





We are progressing towards anarcho capitalism. Think of what the government provides that no one else is. Money, legal system, military. Over the past couple of years we have seen the emergence of non governmental money (bitcoin) and non governmental legalese (http://judge.me) and as far as military, hopefully drones will become cheap enough for everyone to have one. Basucally just kick back and let the free market do its thing, and shut down illogical statists along the way Grin
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1015
July 16, 2012, 06:26:43 AM
#60
And just so you know, myrkul, I did it again in my reply to you. I used the word to instead of too. And it occurred exactly due to the reason I gave.

Clicking "post" before proof-reading your posts?

Often. Now, regarding your pontifications and prognostications on politics, we all find them a bit peremptory, and thus we feel compelled to respond in a perfunctory manner, which may come off as pugnacious to you.
Grin Hero member folks.

Question are you working on any BTC related projects at the moment?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 16, 2012, 04:59:35 AM
#59
If guards was a business, don't business's tend to get bigger and bigger. What if over time there becomes a monopoly, or even a duopoly. Then we are basically back to government.

Except not.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia's page on Monopolies:
Quote
Monopolies can be established by a government, form naturally, or form by mergers. A monopoly is said to be coercive when the monopoly actively prohibits competitors by using practices (such as underselling) that derive from its market or political influence.

The links are maintained from the original text, I suggest you read all three articles, but I'll summarize here:

A monopoly like that which you describe is a natural monopoly, one that, due to economies of scale, becomes the sole provider in a market. It is prevented from the sorts of abuses typically attributed to governments and other coercive monopolies by the fact that it is in a rather precarious position - it maintains it's spot at the top of the pile by having the best services available for the best prices profitable.

A coercive monopoly, such as government or any of the various other monopolies that it allows or establishes, on the other hand, is the sole provider in a market due to force. Any coercive monopoly would be rightly viewed as illegitimate, and absent laws preventing competition, would quickly fail, or start playing nice.

It should also be pointed out that the answer for a feared concentration of power is not a concentration of power.
hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 16, 2012, 04:15:19 AM
#58
I'm just one guy. The rest of the world will always have more gunpower than me. So how is anarchy going to secure the property rights needed for capitalism?

As I said earlier, much the same way living in a nation-state does today, with the added benefit that the guards of those property rights don't themselves violate those rights.
What is stopping those guards from violating those right?

Who watches the watcher, eh? Valid question, and one you should ask of any political arrangement. There's a short answer, which is glib, snappy, and oversimplified, and a long answer, which is detailed, involved, and much, much more than I feel like typing right now. So, you get the short answer, and a summary of the long one.

Short answer: The other guards.

Long answer (summary): The guards operate in a free-market competition for more customers. A company that started violating rights would start losing customers, not to mention employees. Customers would flock to the other companies, because they do not violate their rights, and employees would be lost in two ways: combat losses due to attempting to violate the rights of people who were prepared to defend themselves, and defections because those employees either don't want to violate the customer's rights, or don't like being shot at.
hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 16, 2012, 04:00:57 AM
#57
Anarchy is utopian, as in perfect world ideal, where everything must work perfectly to... well work.

Uh.... no.

AnCap, especially, recognizes that there will always be people who do not wish to play nice. However, unlike governmental systems, rather than giving some of these people the power to do as they wish in return for keeping the rest of them away, we simply give the job of keeping them away to people who do want to play nice, and recognize that all such people who do not want to play nice belong to the same class of people: criminals.
hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 16, 2012, 03:45:31 AM
#56
I'm just one guy. The rest of the world will always have more gunpower than me. So how is anarchy going to secure the property rights needed for capitalism?

As I said earlier, much the same way living in a nation-state does today, with the added benefit that the guards of those property rights don't themselves violate those rights.

Those guards will eventually.

My problem with anarcho capitalism is that it is a utopian ideal. My problem with anarcho capitalism is the anarchy. I would go into why I think anarchy is an ideal and could never be a reality but you probably have heard most of it already.

On the contrary, AnCap is not utopia. It has never been presented as one. We merely argue that it is preferable to government. The real utopian idealism is thinking that because some guy can convince 50% +1 of the population that he's the right man for the job, that he will suddenly become a saint. That doesn't select for good people, it selects for convincing liars.
hero member
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 16, 2012, 01:37:06 AM
#55
I'm just one guy. The rest of the world will always have more gunpower than me. So how is anarchy going to secure the property rights needed for capitalism?

As I said earlier, much the same way living in a nation-state does today, with the added benefit that the guards of those property rights don't themselves violate those rights.
hero member
Activity: 642
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July 16, 2012, 01:03:17 AM
#54
I'm just one guy. The rest of the world will always have more gunpower than me. So how is anarchy going to secure the property rights needed for capitalism?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 15, 2012, 11:29:55 PM
#53
Points are way overrated, as opposed to knowledge and understanding. My intent in that thread is to deliver the latter in greater proportion to the former.

Either way, you have to type to present them. Feel free to start doing that whenever you like.
hero member
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July 15, 2012, 11:11:04 PM
#52
I gotta say, when I went to sleep there was one snarky reply to this post. There is a lot of words now, but still no convincing arguments. I think the greatest weakness to ancap is pollution, but then again governments are by far the greatest polluters.

The environmental effects are being discussed here... If FirstAscent ever gets around to making a point. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ecosystems-edge-effects-and-related-environmental-issues-92952

Points are way overrated, as opposed to knowledge and understanding. My intent in that thread is to deliver the latter in greater proportion to the former. Political theories are worthless without a fundamental foundation to build upon. Everyone should focus on building a case derived from knowledge, rather than defending mantras and ideologies.
hero member
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 15, 2012, 07:35:59 PM
#51
I gotta say, when I went to sleep there was one snarky reply to this post. There is a lot of words now, but still no convincing arguments. I think the greatest weakness to ancap is pollution, but then again governments are by far the greatest polluters.

The environmental effects are being discussed here... If FirstAscent ever gets around to making a point. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ecosystems-edge-effects-and-related-environmental-issues-92952
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
July 15, 2012, 07:29:16 PM
#50
I gotta say, when I went to sleep there was one snarky reply to this post. There is a lot of words now, but still no convincing arguments. I think the greatest weakness to ancap is pollution, but then again governments are by far the greatest polluters.

 I honed my philosophy from http://reddit.com/r/anarcho_capitalism, lots of deep thinkers in there, and lots of opposing views too. Just yesterday I learned the richest robber barons of the gilded age got there on their own, without government subsidy. For example Vanderbilt got the price of shipping a barrel of flour down to 14 cents, from THREE dollars! If you want to see the full video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-LJ3wZjD4I




Its about 36 minutes long but every minute is interesting, paints a completely different picture of the gilded age and "The WILD west" which turns out was not so wild...


But anyway, capitalism is not keeping everybody down, it is the only thing pulling us out of shit. Let capitalism run free, and we will be in space much sooner

legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003
July 15, 2012, 07:00:39 PM
#49
The quickest way to change society is by changing the currency. The currency is the lifeblood of moral human interaction. The fiat monetary system is an hierarchical, pyramid system so it makes sense that that is the type of political system we have as well.

A decentralized monetary system will result in a decentralized political/legal system.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
July 15, 2012, 05:01:48 PM
#48
And just so you know, myrkul, I did it again in my reply to you. I used the word to instead of too. And it occurred exactly due to the reason I gave.

Clicking "post" before proof-reading your posts?

Often. Now, regarding your pontifications and prognostications on politics, we all find them a bit peremptory, and thus we feel compelled to respond in a perfunctory manner, which may come off as pugnacious to you.
Usually something like this gets a hit on google and verifies copypasta. Well played, Sir.
hero member
Activity: 812
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July 15, 2012, 04:54:21 PM
#47
And just so you know, myrkul, I did it again in my reply to you. I used the word to instead of too. And it occurred exactly due to the reason I gave.

Clicking "post" before proof-reading your posts?

Often. Now, regarding your pontifications and prognostications on politics, we all find them a bit peremptory, and thus we feel compelled to respond in a perfunctory manner, which may come off as pugnacious to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyxgPocbM8Y

Or you could read Jack Vance, where even the lowly peasants speak that way. Fun stuff.
hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 15, 2012, 04:51:55 PM
#46
And just so you know, myrkul, I did it again in my reply to you. I used the word to instead of too. And it occurred exactly due to the reason I gave.

Clicking "post" before proof-reading your posts?

Often. Now, regarding your pontifications and prognostications on politics, we all find them a bit peremptory, and thus we feel compelled to respond in a perfunctory manner, which may come off as pugnacious to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyxgPocbM8Y
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 15, 2012, 04:48:51 PM
#45
And just so you know, myrkul, I did it again in my reply to you. I used the word to instead of too. And it occurred exactly due to the reason I gave.

Clicking "post" before proof-reading your posts?

Often. Now, regarding your pontifications and prognostications on politics, we all find them a bit peremptory, and thus we feel compelled to respond in a perfunctory manner, which may come off as pugnacious to you.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
July 15, 2012, 04:47:56 PM
#44
Yes. It requires more then philosophical prognostications about human behavior to effectively predict its outcome.

How is it, you can use a word like "prognostications", correctly spelled and placed in the sentence, and yet use "then" instead of "than"?

And what, exactly, would you suggest we use to predict the outcome?
The thesaurus is getting a workout.

How so? Do you really think I consulted a thesaurus before I made that statement? Seriously?
It's not an accusation indictment.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 15, 2012, 04:41:33 PM
#43
And just so you know, myrkul, I did it again in my reply to you. I used the word to instead of too. And it occurred exactly due to the reason I gave.

Clicking "post" before proof-reading your posts?
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 15, 2012, 04:39:32 PM
#42
And just so you know, myrkul, I did it again in my reply to you. I used the word to instead of too. And it occurred exactly due to the reason I gave.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 15, 2012, 04:38:12 PM
#41
Yes. It requires more then philosophical prognostications about human behavior to effectively predict its outcome.

How is it, you can use a word like "prognostications", correctly spelled and placed in the sentence, and yet use "then" instead of "than"?

And what, exactly, would you suggest we use to predict the outcome?
The thesaurus is getting a workout.

How so? Do you really think I consulted a thesaurus before I made that statement? Seriously?
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 15, 2012, 04:36:33 PM
#40
Yes. It requires more then philosophical prognostications about human behavior to effectively predict its outcome.

How is it, you can use a word like "prognostications", correctly spelled and placed in the sentence, and yet use "then" instead of "than"?

Misspellings are not always the result of grammatical ignorance, but often the result of a subconscious stream of consciousness influenced by the part of the brain which reproduces sounds within the mind. I'm sure we all do it. I'm sure you do it too. I'm fully aware of then and than, there and their and they're, your and you're, and so on. I will now correct the mistake.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
July 15, 2012, 04:31:30 PM
#39
Yes. It requires more then philosophical prognostications about human behavior to effectively predict its outcome.

How is it, you can use a word like "prognostications", correctly spelled and placed in the sentence, and yet use "then" instead of "than"?

And what, exactly, would you suggest we use to predict the outcome?
The thesaurus is getting a workout.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 15, 2012, 04:20:08 PM
#38
Yes. It requires more then philosophical prognostications about human behavior to effectively predict its outcome.

How is it, you can use a word like "prognostications", correctly spelled and placed in the sentence, and yet use "then" instead of "than"?

And what, exactly, would you suggest we use to predict the outcome?
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 15, 2012, 04:06:16 PM
#37
That's the ticket, though zero unobtanium is better unless it is based on known scientific observations we just haven't developed yet.

The worst case I've seen is a heart-shot victim resuscitated. Not possible at current medical tech levels (primarily because they're dead before the ambulance even gets there), but doable, eventually.

But we're getting off-topic. Does anyone have anything to say about AnCap?

Yes. It requires more than philosophical prognostications about human behavior to effectively predict its outcome.
hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 15, 2012, 04:01:12 PM
#36
That's the ticket, though zero unobtanium is better unless it is based on known scientific observations we just haven't developed yet.

The worst case I've seen is a heart-shot victim resuscitated. Not possible at current medical tech levels (primarily because they're dead before the ambulance even gets there), but doable, eventually.

But we're getting off-topic. Does anyone have anything to say about AnCap?
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
July 15, 2012, 03:55:28 PM
#35
The Road by Cormac McCarthy!

He's looking for books exploring the end result of AnCap, not of governments.
I'm not looking for any books because there really aren't any. I was talking about an excercise in developing your own understanding of what you are trying to convey. Like John Lennon said "You better free your mind instead."

Ohh.... You want me to write some libertarian science fiction? Rest assured, I am. Nothing finished and ready for public consumption yet, but I have quite a bit written. But if you would like to read some other people's libertarian science fiction while you wait, there are many options.

As mentioned, I can provide a PDF of Alongside Night. We've met or surpassed most of the technology in there, or you can read Escape From Terra, which has realistic space travel, with only a small amount of unobtanium medical technology. The focus of both are the society, not the tech.
That's the ticket, though zero unobtanium is better unless it is based on known scientific observations we just haven't developed yet.
hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 15, 2012, 03:51:45 PM
#34
The Road by Cormac McCarthy!

He's looking for books exploring the end result of AnCap, not of governments.
I'm not looking for any books because there really aren't any. I was talking about an excercise in developing your own understanding of what you are trying to convey. Like John Lennon said "You better free your mind instead."

Ohh.... You want me to write some libertarian science fiction? Rest assured, I am. Nothing finished and ready for public consumption yet, but I have quite a bit written. But if you would like to read some other people's libertarian science fiction while you wait, there are many options.

As mentioned, I can provide a PDF of Alongside Night. We've met or surpassed most of the technology in there, or you can read Escape From Terra, which has realistic space travel, with only a small amount of unobtanium medical technology. The focus of both are the society, not the tech.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
July 15, 2012, 03:44:00 PM
#33
The Road by Cormac McCarthy!

He's looking for books exploring the end result of AnCap, not of governments.
I'm not looking for any books because there really aren't any. I was talking about an excercise in developing your own understanding of what you are trying to convey. Like John Lennon said "You better free your mind instead."
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 15, 2012, 03:36:06 PM
#32
The Road by Cormac McCarthy!

He's looking for books exploring the end result of AnCap, not of governments.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
July 15, 2012, 03:31:30 PM
#31
The Road by Cormac McCarthy!
That movie was so inspirational. It is truly a bright and cheery future worth working for!
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July 15, 2012, 03:28:27 PM
#30
The Road by Cormac McCarthy!
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July 15, 2012, 03:22:32 PM
#29
Ya know, this is a Bitcoin forum. It is a real movement with folks doing real things to change the world starting today. This is not ComiCon or a fanboi forum. All I'm asking is for something real. Looking Backward, 2000 to 1887 by Edward Bellamy is a good example.

So.... Science fiction?
Quote
Looking Backward: 2000-1887 is a utopian science fiction novel by Edward Bellamy, a lawyer and writer from Chicopee Falls, Massachusetts; it was first published in 1887. According to Erich Fromm, Looking Backward is "one of the most remarkable books ever published in America".
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July 15, 2012, 03:21:36 PM
#28
Ya know, this is a Bitcoin forum. It is a real movement with folks doing real things to change the world starting today. This is not ComiCon or a fanboi forum. All I'm asking is for something real. Looking Backward, 2000 to 1887 by Edward Bellamy is a good example.
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July 15, 2012, 03:17:08 PM
#27
Whenever someone suggests a Utopian type society, I recommend writing a short story about it. Kurt Vonnegut and others have created a great deal of commentary on such ideals. It's not so much for anyone else to read, but to see if you have really thought your ideas through.

I have suggested several fictional representations of an AnCap society at work, perhaps the most accessible is Escape From Terra, and BHP has many other stories that illustrate (literally!) the concept.
I left out one more thing. Before looking at these links, the stories have to be realistic today. They cannot involve anything like space travel, time travel, or sleeping or cryonics for a century.

In that case (most of BHP is Sci-fi), I suggest you read Alongside Night, which was science fiction when written, but is now effectively contemporary literature. I have a PDF, if you'd like.
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July 15, 2012, 03:12:42 PM
#26
Whenever someone suggests a Utopian type society, I recommend writing a short story about it. Kurt Vonnegut and others have created a great deal of commentary on such ideals. It's not so much for anyone else to read, but to see if you have really thought your ideas through.

I have suggested several fictional representations of an AnCap society at work, perhaps the most accessible is Escape From Terra, and BHP has many other stories that illustrate (literally!) the concept.
I left out one more thing. Before looking at these links, the stories have to be realistic today. They cannot involve anything like space travel, time travel, or sleeping or cryonics for a century.
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July 15, 2012, 03:08:34 PM
#25
Whenever someone suggests a Utopian type society, I recommend writing a short story about it. Kurt Vonnegut and others have created a great deal of commentary on such ideals. It's not so much for anyone else to read, but to see if you have really thought your ideas through.

I have suggested several fictional representations of an AnCap society at work, perhaps the most accessible is Escape From Terra, and BHP has many other stories that illustrate (literally!) the concept.
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July 15, 2012, 02:58:48 PM
#24
Whenever someone suggests a Utopian type society, I recommend writing a short story about it. Kurt Vonnegut and others have created a great deal of commentary on such ideals. It's not so much for anyone else to read, but to see if you have really thought your ideas through.
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July 15, 2012, 02:50:34 PM
#23
And then you can read the criticisms against it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_anarcho-capitalism
Any proper reading of the original article would lead naturally to reading the criticisms. They're linked toward the end.
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July 15, 2012, 02:46:45 PM
#22
And then you can read the criticisms against it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_anarcho-capitalism
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July 15, 2012, 02:34:08 PM
#21
Anarchism can only be implemented once technology has rendered capitalism obsolete.  Otherwise you are just handing direct control to the top 1% of wealth holders.  If we was living under anarco-capitalism then I'm sure the top 1% wealth holders who were in control would have an elected council so the plebs, peasants and serfs felt like they had a voice and wouldn't revoult.  Tho that elected council would be rigged so only supporters of the top 1% of wealth holders could come to power.  The top 1% of wealth holders would use there control of the media and banks to make that happen.  Sound familiar?

That is not anarcho-capitalism. That is democracy. Would you like me to explain the concept of anarcho-capitalism to to you, or would you rather read it yourself?
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July 15, 2012, 02:23:27 PM
#20
Anarchism can only be implemented once technology has rendered capitalism obsolete.  Otherwise you are just handing direct control to the top 1% of wealth holders.  If we was living under anarco-capitalism then I'm sure the top 1% wealth holders who were in control would have an elected council so the plebs, peasants and serfs felt like they had a voice and wouldn't revoult.  Tho that elected council would be rigged so only supporters of the top 1% of wealth holders could come to power.  The top 1% of wealth holders would use there control of the media and banks to make that happen.  Sound familiar?
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July 15, 2012, 01:35:17 PM
#19
Great story. I'm not against Anarchy of any type, it's just that it will take many many generations before it is accepted by the masses. It will take great writers and visionaries to prepare the road for them.

You might be surprised how quickly people will adapt. AnCap would not be that much different from the modern society most of us live in now. The primary difference is the fact that you get to select the "Guards for your future security" for yourself. There are towns where there are multiple garbage companies. There are towns where there are multiple electrical companies. These traditionally monopoly services don't break down when competition is introduced. Just the opposite. Service improves, and prices decrease.
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July 15, 2012, 01:22:16 PM
#18
Who allows it? Certainly not your aggressor. And to what degree are you capable of reciprocating? Certainly everyone cannot reciprocate effectively in an equal manner.

"The year was 2081, and everybody was finally equal."
Great story. I'm not against Anarchy of any type, it's just that it will take many many generations before it is accepted by the masses. It will take great writers and visionaries to prepare the road for them.
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July 15, 2012, 01:18:46 PM
#17
Who allows it? Certainly not your aggressor. And to what degree are you capable of reciprocating? Certainly everyone cannot reciprocate effectively in an equal manner.

"The year was 2081, and everybody was finally equal."
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July 15, 2012, 01:13:17 PM
#16
There's a lot of choices in life. Just because you choose to be nice, doesn't require anyone else to reciprocate.

No, of course not. Of course, if they choose to initiate force, I am allowed to reciprocate.

Who allows it? Certainly not your aggressor. And to what degree are you capable of reciprocating? Certainly everyone cannot reciprocate effectively in an equal manner.
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July 15, 2012, 01:09:08 PM
#15
There's a lot of choices in life. Just because you choose to be nice, doesn't require anyone else to reciprocate.

No, of course not. Of course, if they choose to initiate force, I am allowed to reciprocate.
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July 15, 2012, 01:02:45 PM
#14
Whats to stop private people from using guns to do things more efficiently?
Using guns (violence) is not more efficient when they other guys are also armed.
And thus, I am required to walk around with a gun. That's coercion, in a sense.
Nobody's forcing you to walk around with a gun. Permission is not coercion.
No, your society forces a certain style of living upon one.
That's right, those with the biggest and most guns make and enforce the laws. How is that different than government?

"Those with the biggest guns make the laws" is government.
AnCap is based on the realization that violence is not the best way to do things.
"No person has the right to initiate the use or threat force or fraud"

You are not required to walk around armed. You're free to be defenseless, if you so choose. Forcing other people to be defenseless because you prefer to be, however, is coercion.
There's a lot of choices in life. Just because you choose to be nice, doesn't require anyone else to reciprocate.
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July 15, 2012, 12:50:42 PM
#13
Whats to stop private people from using guns to do things more efficiently?
Using guns (violence) is not more efficient when they other guys are also armed.
And thus, I am required to walk around with a gun. That's coercion, in a sense.
Nobody's forcing you to walk around with a gun. Permission is not coercion.
No, your society forces a certain style of living upon one.
That's right, those with the biggest and most guns make and enforce the laws. How is that different than government?

"Those with the biggest guns make the laws" is government.
AnCap is based on the realization that violence is not the best way to do things.
"No person has the right to initiate the use or threat force or fraud"

You are not required to walk around armed. You're free to be defenseless, if you so choose. Forcing other people to be defenseless because you prefer to be, however, is coercion.
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July 15, 2012, 12:42:07 PM
#12
Whats to stop private people from using guns to do things more efficiently?

Using guns (violence) is not more efficient when they other guys are also armed.

And thus, I am required to walk around with a gun. That's coercion, in a sense.

Nobody's forcing you to walk around with a gun. Permission is not coercion.

No, your society forces a certain style of living upon one.
That's right, those with the biggest and most guns make and enforce the laws. How is that different than government?
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July 15, 2012, 12:40:52 PM
#11
Whats to stop private people from using guns to do things more efficiently?

Using guns (violence) is not more efficient when they other guys are also armed.

And thus, I am required to walk around with a gun. That's coercion, in a sense.

Nobody's forcing you to walk around with a gun. Permission is not coercion.

No, your society forces a certain style of living upon one.
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July 15, 2012, 12:39:51 PM
#10
Whats to stop private people from using guns to do things more efficiently?

Using guns (violence) is not more efficient when they other guys are also armed.

And thus, I am required to walk around with a gun. That's coercion, in a sense.

Nobody's forcing you to walk around with a gun. Permission is not coercion.
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July 15, 2012, 12:30:50 PM
#9
Whats to stop private people from using guns to do things more efficiently?

Using guns (violence) is not more efficient when they other guys are also armed.

And thus, I am required to walk around with a gun. That's coercion, in a sense.
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July 15, 2012, 12:15:17 PM
#8
Whats to stop private people from using guns to do things more efficiently?

Using guns (violence) is not more efficient when they other guys are also armed.
legendary
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July 15, 2012, 11:45:01 AM
#7
Whats to stop private people from using guns to do things more efficiently?

Just gun laws and lack of funding for the moment. Bitcoin is changing that though.
Who will enforce gun laws?

In anarcho-capitalism? there won't be gun laws.
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July 15, 2012, 11:34:11 AM
#6
Whats to stop private people from using guns to do things more efficiently?

Just gun laws and lack of funding for the moment. Bitcoin is changing that though.
Who will enforce gun laws?
legendary
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July 15, 2012, 11:21:21 AM
#5
Whats to stop private people from using guns to do things more efficiently?

Just gun laws and lack of funding for the moment. Bitcoin is changing that though.
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July 15, 2012, 10:49:09 AM
#4
Whats to stop private people from using guns to do things more efficiently?
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July 15, 2012, 05:47:05 AM
#3
I take that to mean you don't have a convincing argument?
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July 15, 2012, 03:40:42 AM
#2
again?  Huh
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July 15, 2012, 03:32:36 AM
#1
There is nothing the government can do that could not be done better privately. If it looks like they are doing it better, its because they are enforcing it with guns (not very fair)

Please, convince me why we must have this bullshit thing collecting taxes from some of us
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