Topic: Anyone here from Germany? What exactly are your electricity costs? (Read 580 times)

Russia is a big country - and every nation thinks of their benefits first
The other comes late. So we can not curse other for their good decisions. Russian stood upright during the crisis and see now all the countries are after them for oil and gas supply.

Even in our country people are protesting like crazy for the excessive gas and electricity bills.
This virus of inflation is very serious virus after Coronavirus. And people are going mad - they dont know how to cope up with inflation and how to earn their living.

Russia is a great country - let me rephrase this expression so that some users do not feel offended. Russia is a country with an enormous area and large deposits of minerals. This country cannot be blocked by sanctions.
You say that in corrupt European politicians Russia is to blame.
Is it fair to blame Europe and the US for the collapse of Russia's industry and corrupt politicians?

In today's news: Belgium and Germany are on schedule to close nuclear power plants this winter. As much as I like green energy, we're far from being able to go without conventional power plants.

Meanwhile in my country: local governments are forced to cancel cheap gas contracts, and buy expensive gas on the spot market. The Dutch are alone in interpreting EU sanctions this way, and may even be violating sanctions by doing this. But ministries aren't known for admitting their mistakes, so it continues as planned.

German electricity prices passed 1 euro per kWh for the first time today, just like French prices did last Friday. Meanwhile, the euro keeps dropping against the dollar, and with reason: high energy prices impact every aspect of the economy.

Now for Europe, even in Russia, there are no more cheap raw materials and energy. Say thanks to the Poles, who two years ago won a lawsuit against Gazprom in order to receive gas at a spot price, and not at the price of long-term contracts. After that, the spot gas price was very low for a while and the Poles made a short-term profit from the court decision, but now the situation has changed. Only Serbia in Europe has a good long-term contract with Gazprom (about $400 per thousand cubic meters of gas), the rest of the countries are forced to buy gas at a spot price, which has already fixed itself at over $3,000 per thousand cubic meters. A dozen large European fertilizer plants have already been forced to stop their work and this is just the beginning. By winter, the entire energy-intensive industry of the European Union will be completely paralyzed. And I see no chance to avoid this scenario.

It is going more crazy in the next coming months if nothing is done with the war and winter starts. According to recent news Germans would have used up almost all the store gas/crude in the country except they gotten, then when winter is here the consumption of gas will increase and the available gas wont be enough, supply wont be able to cater for the demand and the price will go crazier.

I'll tell you a secret - in fact, the whole world is indebted to each other, and "to that uncle"
The level of debt is not a one-size-fits-all indicator. For example, we take the United States - domestic debt - more expensive than half of the world! And the external one - with the cost as the second half of the world!
And nothing - the leading economy, politics, the army and much more.
Saudi Arabia - 150,000 million in external debt, and feel great with the highest standard of living!
Now about greatness - well, there are no questions with the greatness of the United States. But why did you decide that Russia is a great country - this is the question, most likely without a logical answer, no offense! A terrorist country, a loser country, a pathetic likeness of North Korea, but what is great here!?

Well, in essence the topic: "If Germany and France want to be large industrial countries in Europe, then they have 2 options: to take cheap raw materials and electricity in Russia or try to become energy independent, and build nuclear power plants, develop the coal industry and other non-environmentally friendly industries. "
And tell me, why did you get the idea that raw materials are only in Russia, and that in Russia it is cheap? The fits of hysteria of the Kremlin dwarf showed that economic terrorism is a common thing for Russia, and it will set prices as it wants. And if Britain, the USA and part of Europe had not taken up the matter now, the Kremlin ghouls would have already poisoned everyone in the EU against Russian gas with a "newcomer"!
The problem is that "raw materials are available only in Russia, and only in Russia they are cheap! If you study the history of the formation of the oil and gas market in Europe, you will be surprised how, since the 50-60s of the last century, the USSR "invested" in bribing state officials and "West Berlin", and France and Italy and many others. It is the corrupt monopolization of the industry of some countries that has led to the current situation! There are no cheap resources from Russia - there are corrupt politicians, corruption, and a lot of interesting but not yet published facts for the public , about some personalities from the very top of the political Olympus of Europe in the second half of the 20th century.

France made an impressive breakthrough in nuclear power after the oil crisis in the 1970s. Almost half a century has passed since then, and the current state of nuclear energy in France is far from optimal - many old reactors that have already exhausted their resources (several of them need to be decommissioned immediately or as soon as possible), loss of influence in Africa (in particular in Niger, from where France imports uranium) and, most importantly, a dramatic loss of engineering competencies (read the history of the construction of the Olkiluoto-3 nuclear power plant in Finland, this is the epic fiasco of AREVA). French nuclear power is dead, or in need of a deep reset.

Absurdity at the best

USA and Russia are "great countries" because they're not relying on other country

Well, excuse us Europeans if we don't have petrol or gas underground. That's how the world is but you can try to send a support ticket to God
Secondly, About the USA

You suggest to France build nuclear power plants. Jesus Christ, google it before, we're probably the leader worldwide with the nuclear plants.
And something you should be aware of before commenting. France buys only 15% of its gas from foreign countries. Russia is not the only seller on the marketplace. Our reserves are 100% full, and we replaced Russia is we want to buy more

you have limited knowledge about the energy industry in Europe, you're probably just repeating what you watched on tv

I'm not going to read your shit anymore. You've done enough shitposting here and there

Europe is Germany and France. Italy is the number 2 debtor after Greece.
Why are the USA and Russia great countries? Because they are not dependent on other countries in all major respects.

If Germany and France want to be large industrial countries in Europe, then they have 2 options: to take cheap raw materials and electricity in Russia or try to become energy independent, and build nuclear power plants, develop the coal industry and other non-environmentally friendly industries.

But in Europe it's not fashionable, they don't want to get dirty and be safe. Therefore, green energy is in fashion there.
And this energy is not enough for production.

A politician should do what the voters want, not what is important for the country. No need to blame the Kremlin for the troubles of Europe.
Europeans are to blame for this themselves.
____
In Russia, a massive program of gasification of the entire country is now underway in order to increase gas consumption. There are a lot of gas filling stations and there are funding programs for filling gasoline cars with gas.
Prices for gas, petrol and electricity have fallen in Russia.
Thanks for the sanctions.

It is from these "drops" that the exit path is built. See what the EU is doing now
1. Reducing gas consumption by 15% by the end of the year.
2. This applies to all countries. Do you know what's important here? The fact that only some countries, or rather their industry, is highly dependent (more than 30%) on gas from Russia. It also means that countries that consume 15% or less of Russian gas will also reduce gas consumption.
And that means what? That's right - there will be a surplus of gas of non-Russian origin.
3. Real dependence, or rather a noticeably negative situation in only a few countries. These are countries such as Germany, France, Italy, Hungary. Are you familiar with this list?
The rest of the countries, or rather their rulers, did not sell themselves to the Kremlin ghouls, and did not make their country dependent on the idiotic tricks of the petty under-Fuhrer from the Kremlin. With other countries, in this vile type, the gas terror did not pass, they easily abandoned the "blood gas" and sent terrorist suppliers to hell.

As a result: Therefore, a step-by-step, by 2-3-5% reduction, over time, will allow us to completely abandon supplies from Russia. Unfortunately, to the same Germany it is extremely difficult to immediately refuse gas supplies from Russia - most of their industry is tied precisely to the supply of Russian gas. This is about 40% of all purchased gas. Germany buys 60% from other suppliers.

Not using our own gas in a crisis is one of the many weird things going on at the moment. We also have half a billion tonnes of coal, and we're mining none of it.

There is no easy long-term solution, unfortunately. I doubt we'll ever be able to be self-sufficient on renewables, given how crowded, small and flat the country is.

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Nu.nl summed up some of the measures in Germany: starting next month, public buildings can't be heated above 19 ^oC, and no heating in hallways. No more lamps on monuments, lights off in shops when they're closed, and possibly a ban on heating private swimming pool. The goal: reduce gas consumption by 2%. My gut feeling tells me it's a drop in a bucket.

I find it interesting that you think is better to have a promise of getting gas (like a Celsius agreement that we will give your money back) rather than having your own gas (your deposits, your gas), which is a bit, interesting I would say.
As for Nord Stream 2, yeah there is NS2 but so is Bucha, err I almost said Putten, and if you're at analogies moment then let me tell you that Switzerland is right now a bit of Chamberlain, how did these politics of concessions and neutrality work out for you last time?

What people do not realize is that we do not have the infrastructure for continuing to improve and benefit the most out of renewable energy. I mean sure there are people who are working their best, but we haven't done that globally yet and still pay oil companies tax brakes and such to keep it going.

Let’s face it, they are making tens of billions of dollars in profit while everyone else in the entire world suffers, it is the biggest crisis we have right now and they INCREASED their profit. All in all, more renewable energy and less oil usage will make sure that the world will never have to go through this situation and building an infrastructure to navigate into it will help a lot.

I had to look it up, and LNG is a lot colder than I expected (-162 ^oC). But Liquid hydrogen gets much closer to absolute zero. There's already a shortage of LNG capacity, and it takes years to expand. Pressure tanks will work, but at the same pressure, you can store less energy (because the molecule is much smaller) than methane. Underground storage could be interesting, maybe it can even be pumped into empty natural gas fields.

I don't think there's an economically viable option right now, since it happens only a few hours per year.

We use Norway for that

Politics
There's also Nord Stream 2.

I think you missed the point about storage, you can store hydrogen just as you store natural gas, it can be turned into liquid as LNG, it can be stored in pressure tanks it can even be stored in salt caverns. Or if you have the energy to spare you can simply transform it into methane gas, it's like one of easiest chemical reaction in the world, especially if you're in a pinch and you already burn coal.


And there you have it, use that energy to produce hydrogen, rather than throwing it away or letting that sunlight go to waste as it heats the roofs when you don't need it, in the Netherlands I think you actually have few options left, it's not like you can build a pump storage dam anywhere to store energy.

LE:
Of course, there is Groningen..but...

That's not the definition of energy source. Electricity isn't an energy source either, but sunlight is.

True, but to do that, you'll need much more hydrogen generating capacity, and much more solar/wind farms. And still, that doesn't cover the energy needs in winter.

We've had negative prices several times this year too. In a country where most houses don't have airconditioning, solar energy has a very low economic value during the hours that it's most productive.

Look at the bright side, it's 33% cheaper than it was in March: 

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Hydrogen is an energy source, otherwise, you could say that both natural gas and oil are energy carriers too.
Hydrogen has one advantage, it can be generated from excess energy on the grid, like when Germany gets a sunny day and all those solar panels start to actually produce something or when the wind blows in all of Europe right in the middle of the night when there is no consumption, store it and then burn it though rainy and no wind days.

Reading an article like this one seems quite funny right now:
https://www.powerengineeringint.com/world-regions/europe/three-quarters-of-2020-see-negative-power-prices-in-europe/

There are many options - using green energy from windmills and solar panels (green hydrogen), using gas (blue hydrogen), using nuclear power plants (orange hydrogen) or even burning coal (brown hydrogen). Moreover, one option does not exclude any others and does not require an exclusive contract for its implementation.

And if Germany simply has a common problem with energy, then it needs to somehow learn to bring its energy balance back to normal, and not engage in vampirism, sucking out excess energy from donor countries in exchange for its depreciating euros. What kind of a locomotive country is this if it does not have enough energy? Germany needs to be more modest in its ambitions.

From what? Gas? That's the problem: hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's an energy carrier.

I am not from germany regarding expensive electricity which is not surprising, considering that Germany is a developed country with high taxes and living costs. As far as I know that on a macro scale, historically, Europe has simply lacked the energy flowing through Eastern Europe. But it seems fair to say that German electricity is relatively expensive compared to the US.

In this case, Germany has no reasonable alternatives other than to receive energy from Russia through existing main pipelines, or to start generating hydrogen on its own.

I meant the relative difference is less because of taxes: if you used to pay 75 cents per m³, and the gas price itself went up 20-fold, you'll now pay "only" 6 times more.

Natural gas is used for more than just electricity production, and they wanted to get rid of coal because of (not very realistic) climate goals.

Natural gas isn't scarce. It's still very cheap in many countries. Transportation is what gets you, and hydrogen would be no different even if it would be abundent somewhere (which it isn't).

Yep. But there is a caveat - hydrogen from Russia is much easier to replace with hydrogen from another source, because hydrogen is one of the most widespread chemical elements on Earth. It can be hydrogen from different sources, marked with different colors depending on the type of generation and the degree of its environmental friendliness (green, blue, orange, brown, etc.), but it is still a flammable, odorless and colorless volatile gas that can be be used as an energy source without astronomical infrastructure investments. Hydrogen has no nationality.

Besides, the European Union still has no other strategy. And frantically trying to plug holes in the energy supply is not a strategy.

I searched on google what is the source of Germany's electricity and found out that they mainly use coal similar to our country. Here in ours, electricity costs have also gone more than double compared from previous years that the electricity bill of a regular household is 25% of a minimum-wage earner salary. I think the conflict between Ukraine and Russia has something to do with this issue because Russia is one of the largest coal producer in the world.

Couple of days ago Germans PPI was released and it was something like 5% but it wasn’t per year it was per month. So it seems these energy prices are having a huge toll.

I wonder what will happen with large auto companies like BMW and VW. How will they be able to sell vehicles if their PPI is so much higher. Most likely won’t be able to compete with other brands stationed elsewhere in the world.

I hope you don't forget that this situation is temporary. It' s currently the governments that compensate the difference by indemnifying the energy companies (as you surely know).
It is obvious that these compensations will end sooner or later (in December in my country but it should be the same in the rest of Europe). What will happen then? Full price and right on time when the winter will begin. Jackpot! Don't be surprised if the price increases X3

just a price example from here https://imgur.com/a/qAHD15Q
about 0.37€ per Kwh. Great deal, heating will become for the rich
by the way, in my country, we pay a tax based on taxes (a tax of taxes). how crazy is it?

And to the user who mentioned the need to switch to hydrogen:
yes, it was the plan in Europe...with hydrogen coming from...Russia  

They can get alternatives, there is also the obvious of just using up less gas.   Many european countries have been forced to switch to biogas previously, they can use it now though its not as convenient or easy to get hold of as freshly delivered natural gas.    Theres all kinds of alternatives, mostly they wont be as efficient or cleanly burning.  I always thought it was quite dull not to realize gas is a clean fuel compared to the majority available, its just leaning on Russia was a mistake obvious every year for the last 22 years and it was ignored.
   Energy security was considered as a problem a long time ago and then they went to sleep on it, even after 2014 not considering of how that situation can spread. Its a failure of governance and good strategic planning, nobody wants to state that and admit they failed.   I hope they do admit and correct for future purposes but I think Germany can get past this and others, at some cost.

You can discuss for a long time how much the price has risen, how much, how much, how to heat the house - with lighters or firewood, wear 3 sweaters or 2 fur coats. The essence does not change, Germany and some EU countries, you just need to realize that once a mistake was made. The error is very serious. And it needs to be corrected. These mistakes are akin to serious diseases - if you deny it, and continue to live as you lived and not be treated - I think everyone understands the ending. Now they are at a crossroads - to continue to ignore the problem (illness) or to recognize and start correcting it fundamentally (to be treated). I believe in reason. And I am sure that in 2-3 years the EU will forget that there was once such a supplier of gas and oil as Russia.

Isn't that the type of stance that we need in order to stop this madness we are in? I mean it is easier to see that we shouldn't help Russia one way or another and that means we shouldn't be getting gas or anything like that from them.

Wood, or gas from somewhere else, or set your lighter on fire if you want, burn your clothes, I don't care how terrible it gets for Germans or even me, I just want Russia to realize that if they keep attacking Ukraine, and do not give the lands back, they are going to be shut off from West and that would mean a lot of profit lost to them in the near future and it will only go worse from there which means they will be financially getting terrible in the long run.

You cannot sit on two chairs at the same time (although some try) and at the same time support sanctions and import Russian gas. The entire EU had a choice, to turn its head to the other side and pretend that nothing important is happening, or to stand firmly towards Russia, even if it means paying dearly for it. All those stories about someone freezing next winter have already become ridiculous because there will be enough gas from other sources, although the price for the end consumer will be much higher.

I can't speak for the average EU resident, but considering that my country experienced a similar war as Ukraine now, and that they were one of the first countries to recognize our independence, I give them full support, even if it means that I have to pay more for electricity or gas - human lives and survival have no price.

ANWB has Dutch electricity prices (market prices) per day/week/month/year for the past years, excluding taxes.
This is 3 years ago (August 2019):

This is now (August 2022):


I'll highlight a day:
August 19, 2019 (a Monday):


August 19, 2022 (a Friday):

That's a 16-fold increase on August 19 in just 3 years.
I'm pretty sure our prices are very similar to German prices.

Sorry, this 17 days old post is outdated. Natural gas is now 20 times more expensive than it used to be.

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Of course, for consumers the difference is less, because energy was always highly taxed and there's now even a temporary tax reduction. But still, the everage new energy contract now costs €4000 per year more than a year ago. And this data is already old, because gas prices went up further.

I mean if they could do that, they could definitely find a supplement that would help, but we still need to go with the renewable route and if we do not then we are going to have a trouble. All the things we need gas for, should be turning into electricity, maybe "some" stuff won't but it needs to be done and it needs to be done right now.

I know that it is not going to be an easy task, but finding supplements right now is not the solution neither. Hydrogen or not, it is going to take a ton of money to replace, and when we have something much better with solar, water wind, and so forth, changing gas needs to electricity needs would be a smarter and easier transition.

I will give, for reference, the most specialized and accurate information available to me on nuclear energy. This article includes very useful information - IAEA reporting in the form of a map of the distribution of uranium ore deposits.
This article is in Ukrainian, but everyone can easily translate it into their native language.
https://www.uatom.org/uranovi-obyekty

A little digression - for fans of the fantasy "about the ban of the Russian language in Ukraine" - on this state site, in the upper right corner, there is a language switcher, there is an English version and ... including a version in Russian
So, the largest deposits of uranium ores in Europe are ... in Ukraine!
Yes, someone will say - mining is mining, but enrichment, without it, nuclear power plants will not work on uranium ore! Of course I agree - it is, everything is true!
It is true that the distribution of ore deposits, that processing, none of these factors make Russia a monopolist, and, accordingly, there is no dependence. Well, if you do not listen to propaganda, but rely on reality.
The only thing I still agree with is that only those who decided, without thinking, to buy Russian nuclear power plants, fell into a trap and, accordingly, become dependent on their supplies from Russia
The rest of the world uses fuel produced by the countries of the real leaders in the production of nuclear fuel. And the first three places look like this:
Kazakhstan (41% of world supplies in 2020)
Australia (13%)
Namibia (11%)

Well, on whom does the world of nuclear power plants depend more? It even depends on Namibia more than on Russia

Oh, and one more factor, about the prospects: "Some Member States are showing particular interest in the thorium fuel cycle, which can open the way to a sustainable build-up of nuclear power capacity. The main incentives for the use of thorium are its abundance in nature, inertness and better properties compared to uranium, higher burnup, suitability for use in fuel cycles with high conversion rates, and inherent resistance to proliferation Some countries are conducting R&D aimed at future use of thorium in addition to uranium as a main source of fuel or instead of him."
https://www.iaea.org/topics/uranium-production

Roughly half of Germans use gas to heat their homes, so yes, you're correct - https://www.dw.com/en/germany-stockpiling-wood-in-fear-of-gas-shortage/a-62601419

It amazes me that Germany is resorting to stockpiling wood for the upcoming winter because they would rather freeze to death than utilize Russian energy. They're firing up coal and nuclear power plants in response in addition to stockpiling wood. I hope they're prepared.

Hydrogen. More precisely, a mixture of 80% hydrogen and 20% natural gas (because hydrogen itself is a very volatile gas). For this mixture, the existing infrastructure of gas pipelines and underground storage facilities can be operated without changes. Moreover, two years ago the European Union published a hydrogen strategy for a climate-neutral Europe. Of course, the covid-19 pandemic and Russia's invasion of Ukraine have pretty much confused the cards, but the EU has no other strategy on this issue.

Interesting argument you raise, I had not heard it until now.

So what do you think could be the solution for Europe to have enough energy supply?

Uranium reserves are unevenly distributed across the planet and even more unevenly distributed across the planet are uranium enrichment capacities. Germany's refusal to develop nuclear energy looks less populist and frivolous when viewed from the aspect of dependence on enriched uranium imports. To reduce dependence on Russian gas in order to become dependent on Russian uranium is a dubious deal in the long run. Even the United States cannot now refuse Russian enriched uranium, so you will not find uranium and the state corporation Rosatom on the sanctions lists.

10x more seems a bit excessive and I really hope this is not going to be the case. In Germany usually there is a fixed payment at the start of the year to the electricity company. The advancement is based on the consumption of the last year with current prices. This also works with the property managers who usually make their plan for the year during spring/summer to calculate the new utility bills for each year. I haven't received any bill for this year yet, which worries me a bit on how much electricity prices actually increased. The problem with the system in Germany is that it can take up to a year in the worst case for the new cost to be transferred to the customer. From a friend of mine who already received all documents for this year and they adjusted their new budget for this year, the only have a 15% increase in electricity cost. From a colleague who lives a bit further away he told me his bill is up 20% this year.

After reading stompix's reply, I reread the thread, and I see that there is a bit of politics being mixed in here that has to do with the war in Ukraine, the more pro-Russian ones trying to emphasise how badly Europe has done on energy policy and others trying to minimise.


I don't know what your friend will pay but I can assure you that in Spain the price is much more expensive than it was a year ago, and I don't think Germany is much better off than us:


Energy bills are soaring in Europe. What are countries doing to help you pay them?

I believe that Europe has to rethink its energy policy and it is going to rethink it, it is going to be forced to do so. To plan for energy cuts because energy policy has been poorly thought out is not a solution.

No, you weren't pointing anything!
I asked you a simple question, what's the minimum hourly wage in India?
You're very good at making stuff up, like the month that has 40 days, the Germany that will freeze to death, and bullshit like this:


and when asked a simple question you somehow try to spin it around and avoid the obvious that doesn't align with your narrative.
So if you have one last drop of dignity there and you're not here just for the relentless illiterate Russian propaganda and to make your weekly quota, simple question mister know it all:
At a little gasoline at 1.77 a german person will be able to buy 6.7 liters of gas, how much can an Indian buy?
And if you're man enough, you can answer the second, who is going to drive donkey carts? This one is simple since there is no change from the present.


The minimum monthly income is exactly 14.72 times the one of the minimum social pension in Russia. Does this answer your question?

I am also in favour of nuclear, because it is the least bad solution. Especially in Europe, where we have (almost) no oil and gas. But we must not forget the issue of nuclear waste.

Another thing is that Germany, and Europe in general with Germany at the head, has had a suicidal energy policy. While Germany was closing nuclear power plants, China was opening new ones.

In Europe we have set ourselves up as saviours of the planet when what we are going to have to consider is how to save ourselves, which is why I believe that in terms of energy the best option is nuclear.

I have posted on this topic (nuclear energy) a lot of times. It is the cheapest and cleanest form of energy available. But for some unknown reason, the green party moonbats want to close down all the nuclear powerpants. I am glad that in my country we are actually trying to cut down on thermal power plants and at the same time trying to increase the share of nuclear energy. I believe that there is enough Uranium in this planet to keep the nuclear power plants running for another 1,000 years (230 years according to the NEA, but I believe that it is an underestimation).

Germany screwed up. They closed nuclear power plants because of the disaster in Japan, coal fired power plants because of the climate, and now natural gas is scarce and very expensive. Their green plans don't meet demand, and short term that leads to very high prices.

Natural gas is now 10-15 times more expensive than it used to be. But recently, when I washed my hands after visiting as toilet at a gas station, the water was hot instead of cold. They're now limiting airco usage, but still waste energy elsewhere.

A friend lives in Frankfurt am Main. 2 bedroom apartment, 5 storey building.
No matter how much someone would like, but the cost of electricity for her is something around 0.35 euros per 1 kW / h. A year ago it was about 0.32 euros per 1Kw/h.

Also, please note that out of the 10% price increase in 2002, compared to 2021, 4% (40% out of 10%) is network fees, that is, money that electricity suppliers must pay to network suppliers.

This is far from fantasies about a 10-fold price increase.
Most likely this is ordinary propaganda that lies shamelessly in order to simply raise the degree inside the country, to create a gentle influence on politicians and to make concessions to some subjects outside of Germany. Who needs it and why - think for yourself ...

The difference between Spain and Germany is because Germany use more gaz than Electricity (IICRC), and since some decades, in Europe, the electricity's network is "connected". We can trade/block/limit between countries. Added to the fact that Spain, as well as Portugual are at the end of this network so the price isn't the same depending on the country.

The funny thing with Germany (but it's not the only country in this situation) is half of the electricity produced comes from renewal energy. That's good? Maybe, but the country sell a percentage of its production to other countries. Less supply for the same demand so the prices can only increase. On the top of that, they're looking for more gas but without Russia, they're out. That's why other countries in Europe will have to help Germany (at least for France so there are surely others countries too. At leastn I hope)

Man, the electricty price is a big problem for us in Europe, and they say the spot price will probably goes up x3 or x4 this winter.
My bills are currently a nightmare, and the worst thing is that we are in the middle of summer, I can't imagine this winter.
I think I'll do like that at home, like a gipsy lol

Well, things are going really tough. Your electricity costs depend on your contract.
Current prices - 29 cents per kWh on electricity and 6 cents per kWh on gas. prices are going to increase, not by 10x but probably by 3-4x. I won't be surprised if I have to pay 1 euro per kWh. Shit! This is the price of wrong politics. Instead of Merkel, people pay it.

I planned to move to Ireland in February but the housing crisis is so severe there that it's impossible to live in Dublin.

Germans will have to say no to a comfortable living. Even with minimum wage, I think people will have money to pay rent, bills and food prices. I think that we have to decrease the heating and put on warm clothes. Not so long ago I spent winter days with winter coats and no heat. Was it harsh? Yes but not a big problem.

I know that in the US the cost of electricity is 5-12 cents, with such electricity prices, the production of many goods will become uncompetitive.With a minimum wage of 12 euros per hour, citizens have nothing to worry about, but how things are with pensioners.What is their minimum income per hour or day if they live on only one pension?

I was just pointing out the wide difference between prices of electricity and that of other commodities. According to you, gasoline in Germany costs €1.50 per liter. Here in India, it costs around ₹100 per liter (€1.25). That means that the tax on gasoline is not that atrocious in Germany. Even in India, around 40% of the price is consisted of tax. On the other hand, for me it looks like electricity is being taxed at a rate of 500% or more. In India, we pay anywhere from €0.03 to €0.10 per KWh, and Germans are paying around 5-10x of that rate. You maybe OK with this, but I don't think that such a high level of tax can be justified.

I've had to look for information, because I heard that Germany is in the process of shutting down nuclear power plants or something. I found this, which I'll share for anyone who doesn't quite know what's going on:

'BERLIN, July 18 (Reuters) - Germany may extend the life of its three remaining nuclear power plants, the economy ministry said on Monday, as public support rises in the face of a possible cut-off of Russian gas.

Germany's remaining nuclear plants are scheduled to be shut down by year-end after former Chancellor Angela Merkel pledged to phase out nuclear power following the meltdown at the Fukushima nuclear plant in Japan in 2011.

The three plants made up 6% of Germany's power production in the first quarter of 2022.'

Whereas in Spain Nuclear power produced 20.8% of electricity in 2021.

And what's the minimum wage in India and how does it compare to the 12 euros per hour minimum in Germany?

It's a German thing and has been like so for a decade, despite your endless claims about cheap energy that did bla bla since Ostpolitik (you really love that word, don't you?)  that gave all that misterious advantage for German's economy, the prices for electricity in Germany have always been atrocious. Same as gasoline price, around 1.5 euros since 2003-2004, E10 is currently 1.77/liter. Even diesel that is by default more expensive was 1.42 12 months ago and is 1.82 now in full economic doom and gloom, Germany will freeze to death, run for the hills, Europe is going bankrupt apocalypse everyone who hasn't set one foot in Europe claims because it has seen so on Russian propaganda.


It's as I mentioned, a German thing, Germany had those differences inprices even before all this mess, this is a document showing prices from 1980:
http://aei.pitt.edu/80172/1/1980_-_1987.pdf
It mentions ~30 pf/kwh, that's 15 euro cents while per comparison the french regions had 60 centimes, which is 9 euro cents.


Well, you answered your own question.

I don't know very well the details of how the energy industry works, but I can't quite explain those prices, being the average price in Spain 0,2460 €/kWh nowadays (The link I have provided gives data from the end of May. At the moment it is a bit more expensive but nowhere near 47 cents).

I say this because Spain doesn't have oil either, it only has 5 nuclear power plants, it hardly burns coal to generate electricity. Except for the gas it receives from Algeria I don't understand how it can be so much cheaper than Germany.

^^^ I was trying to convert it to my local currency and €0.5635 per Kwh translates to ₹45 per Kwh. For me it sounds outrageous. I am paying around ₹7 per Kwh (and it is higher than what most of the others pay in India, ranges from ₹3 to ₹8 per Kwh). From what I have heard, the electricity prices are much lower in other EU nations. In Hungary, they pay around €0.10 per Kwh. In non-EU countries, it is even lower. In Serbia it is around $0.09 per KWh. For Turkey, it is much lower, at $0.05 per Kwh (cheaper than India).

The first part is true, Germany has had the most expensive energy in Europe for a decade and it has some outrageous prices now, but the second part is not true, prices haven't gone up by 10x.

Just one quick look at the offers on the market and you can see that they haven't gone up anywhere close to that.
One of the most expensive ones, like E.ON is offering 56,35 ct/kWh for new clients, guarantee tariff till 8.2023


But there are "cheaper" alternatives, you can compare prices here.

That being said, nobody in Germany has seen 5cents per kWh this century, from the bills I have from one friend since I had this discussion before the used to pay 26 cents per kWh during 2019, now he is on 47 cents. Still expensive but no way near 10x.

For the past few months I’ve been seeing charts and posts about electricity in Germany being extremely expensive. Today I read an article it’s more than 10x expensive than it was between 2010-2020. This can’t be true.

Can someone who lives there verify this?