Topic: Anyone up for Beta Testing a Prototype on Lightning Network? (Read 560 times)

For the readers out there. I'd like to make a case here

@LoyceV is using this forum as his personal playground for sexual fantasies. I bet some of them include trying to annoy people.

Is this type of over sexualised content what a forum on cryptocurrency should be about?

What is the state of this persons mental health? Why should I care to explain myself to someone that shows these traits?

Why am I wasting my time in this forum if I've gone through all the details? And the data is there

I'm sorry but I have to class this forum as a cesspool and won't post back. There's better things out there

Look at the type of garbage that gets thrown around here

https://ibb.co/wMcvs27

@LoyceV


I'm sorry who are you to tell me what to do, think or say? What's wrong with your little brain?  

I wonder how that goes down irl for you. I'm sure you don't because I bet no one wants to be around you :-)

I run on a no asshole rule basis -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_No_Asshole_Rule#:~:text=The%20theme%20of%20this%20book,the%20same%20degree%20of%20awfulness%22.

You're an asshole you don't get service, easy. Move on with your day.


  Really mature, so I guess you're white knighting your way into seeing this fail because you can't even understand how it works?

No wonder BTC and crypto are treated as a public enemy, specially when goofs like you seem to be "community gold"

Where's all your tax returns for every BTC you've ever owned? I'd love to see those.

Why don't you publish them here? Otherwise we can't verify.

Oh actually why don't I make it a full time job to find out who you are, and if you've correctly reported all your coins?

I mean there's a big paper trail of comments in this forum so I'm sure we can build a persona out of that. I bet you use the same username for everything across the net as well :-) I might give it a little go

The legislation in which this enterprise is based might have a permit. The legislation where this enterprise is based might not have a requirement to identify itself.

You're now going to say it's impossible to trust it.

Then why is Satoshi Nakamoto not a fraud? Wasn't he called a fraud when btc just started? I bet he ran into a million people like you, but unlike me, he chose to ignore it, which I will from now on.

@AdolfinWolf


That's my point


You're going down the route of a hypothetical case where I am in fact trying to supply a preimage to game out a randomness function thats deterministic based on an input. Or that I've altered the lightning protocol in a way where preimage generation is fixed.

Not what's happening not what I'm doing. Have you read the verify section of the site?

The only things that I do see offering more transparency are:

1) Get an audit from a third party - link to it from the page. Some eth contracts do this. I don't think it helps them appear as more transparent
2) Offer a "longer" receipt. Where you see each interaction with the lightning node, so you can see exactly what params were supplied for each time you interacted with it
3) Have a multi-seed setup where seed A) is supplied by the user and seed B) is supplied by me and rotated constantly, completely public

None of these ^^^ are things that other apps in the same space do.

FWIW this is all false.
Yes it's true the preimage for us only "exists" is known once the invoice is settled, because YOU have to reveal it in order to claim the payment that was made to the payment_hash (a hash of the PREIMAGE)

Since a preimage is really just the equivalent of a random sha hash, you could start with a good secret and then make a hash of a hash n times, and replay that. Once the new bet is placed you can reveal the old hash to everyone in order to prove you're not alternating between hash chains.
Now that I think about it, this might be less than ideal since the kth+1 hash will be the payment_hash of the kth hash, though I don't see how this could be exploited really, just a funny gimmick.

I think you genuinely seem to misunderstand how payments are done through the lightning network, so I don't really get all the negative vibes in this thread here.

Clearly, you're missing my point. If you want to run a business, you should never be rude. Talking about running a business: how's your gambling license doing?

You're literally trimming my words to fix to your narrative this is ridiculous


As per analytics this forum has the lowest amount of referrals compared to even telegram groups.


lol

After browsing this entire subsection on the forum I can only attest that anything that isn't a shitty price calculator BTC2fiat is suddenly a scam, even when you people are unable to prove that

There's your problem!

Can't argue with that
I quickly ignored the angry kid and unwatched this topic, but since I was mentioned again, I now know nothing changed.

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@jordapoulton: it would probably be better for your business if you distance yourself from shellandbull.

I'm in a favorable position because I've backed every claim made instead of garbling nonsense like you have


This sentence summarises your level of knowledge on the topic

It also summarises your thinking capacity



Read above.

I can reply to your dumb comments everytime, it bumps my thread, thanks.

It's not bad advertising when a buffoon gets put in his place over and over again.

You're the one who's in the unfavorable position to prove things, not me. You're the one who claims your game is provably fair. Argue that claim. I can't prove you're generating non-random numbers, and neither do I believe you do; that doesn't mean it's technically impossible for you or another party (whoever owns the node) to rip the users off. That's why I argue against, and say that you're faithfully fair.

You've yet to comprehend my point. I don't say that Lightning software is written in a way that makes pre-image generation non-random. I'm saying that it's entirely possible to alter the source code individually and make it generate non-random pre-images.

But, can you prove that you don't own it? And if you do (which you don't), can you also prove that the person who owns it isn't ill-intentioned? No. Faith is required.

For the reader out there, look at this person:




And please draw your own conclusions  



Can you explain why? with details and code snippets please.

Same issue as before its going to happen.

1) You make a wild remark
2) I ask you to prove it
3) You tangentially decline to prove it and quote you're too busy and don't care the enough but keep coming back to comment
4) The circle repeats

You haven't even been able to post how preimages are generated in the lightning network. Not even that.

And as said before. When you pay an invoice, the call goes through YOUR WALLET SOFTWARE, which connects to a node THAT I DO NOT OWN. So how could I possibly tamper with the preimage generation?

If any an end user could tamper with it...this app would be the least of our issues because people could do all sorts of stuff. It's like saying the tech is perfectly penetrable since its open source

@BlackHatCoiner Why don't you just stake another 1,000 sats on a 50/50 basis and follow the instructions + film a video and post it here. So we can see what happens when you use it

Listen up, and listen good.

I have NOTHING to do with what you imagine me to be in your head. Was I clear? Here's once more: I have no bad intentions, no aim to "gain information about a system", no particular purpose to exploit your game. Pretty much the opposite, I'm looking forward for new innovative and fun bitcoin projects, just as most of us, hobbyists, here. Whenever I don't understand the way a game or an app works, I seek for an answer, especially when you yourself have presented the stuff here.

I was eager to find out how provably fairness is reassured in your game, and that's why I got involved into talking to you. Once I saw you hadn't made it clear in your website, and that you quickly switched to an obnoxious childish piece of Internet crap, it started smelling fishy to me, justifiably. Your explanatory page is ambiguous; you nowhere state how it's provably fair. Supplying some code doesn't make it provably fair. Making use of an external software, that is a Lightning client, to generate a seed doesn't preclude the possibility that some party can alter it for their advantage.

As for the username, should I conclude you're literally a shell and a bull? Seriously, how old are you? LoyceV must have made an accurate approach.

@Pmalek has a valid comment



Here's a full breakdown and my view on the situation:

1) He was being rude and I was being rude back.

2) His username is also "blackhatcoiner"

By definition a black hat is someone thats trying to maliciously gain information about a system -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hat_(computer_security)#:~:text=Black%20hat%20hackers%20break%20into,unusable%20for%20authorized%20network%20users.

It is *very common* practice for any attacker/intruder to anally scrutinise and ask questions about the system he's about to attack.

Where the naked eye sees a customer being "mistreated". I see someone wearing a baklava outside a bank asking bank tellers about opening times.

And for the record, the bit of information he didn't understand has nothing to do with my app, but how the lightning network generates preimages




I did. and his response is that I am somehow tampering with the preimage. But the preimage is generated by the paying customer's lightning node, nothing to do with me!

I asked him to show me how, then I got no response


That would be great. I ran my implementation past some LND developers and they said a preimage is a valid random seed for any sort of lightning application development. I was also met with happy reactions in other forums: https://ibb.co/KbL9DRL

I am open to tweak my implementation if it can be proven unambiguously that a seed off a preimage can be tampered with, based on my current description of matters

@shellandbull
I am honestly surprised about the way you decided to handle this. It doesn't give the impression of a trustworthy individual. Maybe you are an excellent developer, maybe better than anyone who responded in this thread, but you have failed on your customer relationship management big time. If I have a choice of shopping in an establishment that is more expensive, but I am valued and greeted with a smile and a good day, compared to one that is cheaper but the owner laughs at the way I look or talk, I would shop at the more expensive store.

Let's say BlackHatCoiner didn't understand how all this works. How can you blame him if there is conflicting information? First, it's you who generates the invoice, then you have nothing to do with the preimage and the lightning implementation generates the invoice.

Instead of calling someone a troll, you could actually explain it properly. Or maybe the service is meant for experienced coders and developers only and the regular users (douchebags) should just go elsewhere and keep their mouths shut?   

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Rath_ has always struck me as being very knowledgeable about LN matters. I am going to PM him to check this out if he wants to. Maybe he can help to clear up all the fuzzy stuff.

Hi everyone!

I have an update to make  

We have now introduced multiple odds on satsumo roll!

https://roll.satsumo.xyz/

You can now stake on 1/2, 1/6 or even 1/10 odds for bigger payouts!

If you're using this product for the first time please feel free to film a little video using the app for the first time! If you run into any issues and the problem is captured on film we will refund your sats on the spot

The seed isn't generated by my server, that was explained already. Again, read the other comments. Whine all you want.

I have people staking, winning or losing and moving on with their day happily.

When they're curious about the seed, they run the verification script and read the /fair page. They understand it and let it be

If your game is fair by the assumption that you won't alter your server-side software without being possible for anyone to verify the difference, it isn't provably fair. It's faithfully fair.

Moron.

From the above, I conclude that either you or a third party runs a Lightning node you connect to, server-side, and which generates the invoice whose pre-image clients use as seeds. Therefore, it's entirely possible for the entity that controls the Lightning node to pass an invoice with non-random pre-image. Isn't that correct?


Nope its not correct, you don't understand. I explained it above, go and read that.

Not even how the data flows.

Read my previous answers.

Read the lightning specification ->  https://github.com/lightning/bolts/blob/master/00-introduction.md

Read the source code of a lightning node implementation -> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd is pretty good also https://github.com/ACINQ/eclair

Read about preimages there. If you still feel like coming back here and garble hurr durr my seed isn't truly random & verifiable please do back your claims with data, code snippets, verifications, etc.

Repeat yourself all you want, rephrase yourself all you want, I don't care. You asked a question and got an answer.

Also, for the readers out there:

This person is alluding to the fact that  ANY developer can openly tamper with the various implementations of the protocol to get something that they want.

If that was a thing there would be bigger stuff to fish rather than developing an app where the max bet is ...$9 and every single one of us would have WAY more things to worry about.

You genuinely sound very schizo pal, I'm sorry to say this.

Let's begin debunking some weak shit.

From your "explanatory" page:

Later, I posted this:

And got this as response:

From the above, I conclude that either you or a third party runs a Lightning node you connect to, server-side, and which generates the invoice whose pre-image clients use as seeds. Therefore, it's entirely possible for the entity that controls the Lightning node to pass an invoice with non-random pre-image. Isn't that correct?

> Rank is based on merits and activity. Merit is based on post quality.

"quality"

> I don't criticize your work. I'm asking you some questions so I can understand it and verify that it's actually provably fair. "Don't trust, verify", remember?


Answered already above. Lightning protocol code snippets where provided


> Refusing to answer to your clients' simple questions is an asshole policy. With all the respect.

Complete lies, your questions were answered, multiple times in different ways.

I genuinely challenge your state of mental health for carrying on with this conversation, specially after you failed to back your claims with data.

Again, don't you think readers are suspicious about the fact that you said you were "too busy and didn't care  the enough" to dig up the code and debate me. yet you still have the time and care the enough to mumble the same thing over and over again?

You're literally in a corner mumbling hurr durr my seed hurr durr can't verify hurr durr this is a scam.

It was answered. it's verifiable. I thank whoever developed lightning for this tech because its awesome, it solves a problem and it works!

This is the internet, anyone with a keyboard can post N-times and gain clout on a forum, its not indicative of knowledge on a domain nor skill. I am a biz owner defending his business. And as I said before, this gives me promotion as it continues to bump the thread.

Unlike you I do have the time and I do care enough to refute poorly held claims. I've backed it every time

Rank is based on merits and activity. Merit is based on post quality. 

I don't criticize your work. I'm asking you some questions so I can understand it and verify that it's actually provably fair. "Don't trust, verify", remember?

Refusing to answer to your clients' simple questions is an asshole policy. With all the respect.

> unfriendly Newbie with a website.

I'm classed as a newbie because I am new to a forum that scores users based on comments not on comment quality. So whoever talks the most gets a shinnier JPEG next to their username and they're suddenly an expert? 

> Lol. I don't think I've ever seen a "we need beta testers" escalate into mud slinging this quick! Are you 12?

>For what it's worth: I trust BlackHatCoiner much more than a random unfriendly Newbie with a website. If you're want to attract users, you're going to have to work on your PR-skills.

Do as you will, its a free world 

Our PR has been great in every other forum, slack, discord, etc.

@BlackHatCoiner Isn't the 1st, 2d, not even 10th person to ask about the verification process. He is however the 1st one to criticise it without even being able to understand it. I don't care for having users like him when there's another 100 people staking, winning and moving on with their day

Yeah public image is important but as the person running this I can tell you I have a no asshole policy. He's an asshole therefore gets no service.

Not really.

Lol. I don't think I've ever seen a "we need beta testers" escalate into mud slinging this quick! Are you 12?

For what it's worth: I trust BlackHatCoiner much more than a random unfriendly Newbie with a website. If you're want to attract users, you're going to have to work on your PR-skills.

I've decided not to reply to your comments anymore, they have been answered already. I have decided not to support you as a user.

You're just trolling to keep the last word and smear something just because you don't have the mental capacity to understand it.

You've consistently failed to point and quote code backing your claims. You use "not caring the enough or not having the time for it" as a justification, but you do have the time to come back and respond??? 

For every silly, goofy comment you make I'll just reply back with the same.

This will forever bump this thread giving my product more views.  thanks for the clout

Anyone with good software engineering knowledge will read it and understand that you're obviously wrong here

Don't feed the troll kids

Kindly speaking: What the fuck are you talking about? I don't question your coding skills nor do I say you don't code what you state. I'm questioning your theory.

I was asked to provide an error message that isn't solid evidence in the end, and that's why I didn't get involved further. I don't care about the 1,000 satoshis anyway.

You keep avoiding answering me this simple question I have, which isn't honor for you. You've built the service from scratch. Such query should be easy to resolve.

Let me formulate it for one last time:

• The pre-image of the hash from the invoice you give me in step 1 is my seed.
• This particular invoice is generated by a Lightning node (either yours or a third-party's).

Correct? If yes, what forbids the Lightning node from generating an invoice with a non-random pre-image?

I am somewhat outsider in this discussion, however, I'll add some points:
1. I don't know how many "testers" you've got after this call, but I expect they're not many.
2. I would not expect the testers be supportive with your product, you should be supportive with the testers doing this for free.
3. You should get all the negative parts of the discussions and use them as opportunity to get the things better and/or easier to understand.

You are developer and I can guess that negativity against your work may not be what you expected. But then use a PR person as proxy.
Of course, this was a free advice. You can take it into account or not, no biggie.

> I don't have the time to refute you by pointing to the source code, nor do I want to

I think this attitude settles the entire conversation

You ask for proof and verifiability and you get it, then discard it. Code to support it is provided too

You get asked for proof and verifiability of your claims and you don't provide it  Then you go and ask for people to believe you or say you're too busy. But you ain't busy enough to reply back? ffs

I've answered your other comments already and I won't answer them again.

We're running a fun experience, still in early days, some people are getting payouts and the feedback is mostly positive.

Judging by your way of dissecting things and how you reciprocate back I can only attest that you're not a user I'd cater for. I don't care to support your questions nor your use cases, feel free to never use my app again

 

I haven't complained about anything. I'm telling you how things are. If you don't care, ignore. I have nothing personal with you, neither with your service.

I can't prove it. Nobody can, because it happened locally. An http error message isn't evidence either. It can be faked. My word should be enough for you.

I don't have the time to refute you by pointing to the source code, nor do I want to. I'm reading how it works in theory, and remain with the same question unanswered: Can't I or you cheat? You say that the lightning implementation generates the invoice. This means that the person who's running your node, which as far as I understand is voltage, can give you non-random pre-image. Is that correct?

But, then you say that the pre-image is generated by me. Does this mean from my lightning implementation? If so, can't I generate a non-random pre-image?

> I'm using C-Lightning v0.10.2 with RTL v0.12.3.

I found RLT buggy when I tried to use it, I wouldn't recommend it, its your coins.

> Look after your wording. You're the one who's generating the invoice, and thus the pre-image. Isn't that correct? Your server decides what my invoice will be. The pre-image you generate is strictly correlated with my seed. What prevents you from generating an invoice with non-random pre-image?

No its not correct. The lightning implementation generates an invoice. We run an LND instance on voltage, we communicate to it server-side.

The preimage doesn't exist when you generate an invoice

The preimage exists ONLY when you settle an invoice.

The preimage is generated by the lightning implementation you communicate to when YOU make a payment USING YOUR WALLET. ITS GENERATED BY YOU if anything.

If you don't believe me please go to the source code and point to the place where I'm wrong. I'm happy to refute it.

> It just froze. My internet was fine. The submission button was disabled for a couple of minutes, and the page remained the same.

Can you prove that to me?

You're the only person with all these issues.

First you ask for a full on breakdown of how the seed is verifiable

Then you go out and make a claim you can't provide verification for and implicitly ask me to just believe you - do you see where this is going? 

I also have to be brutally honest here.

I communicated in a clear manner how it all works and why it's transparent.

I've had this conversation many times with other people including software developers and lightning contributors and they're all happy with it and understand why its verifiable.

I feel responsible for looking after my product and looking after my potential users. I explained everything to you, I can't entertain this anymore unless you provide some real information around your issues. Not just hurr durr the seed this the seed that

Any further messages from you that are a plain complaint, come off as slander and don't provide a backing solid argument will be ignored

For which transactions are you talking about? I just let your page generate me an invoice of 1,000 sats, loaded it on my RTL, tried to pay it, and after a while it stopped with a failure. I think it was a payout.

I'm using C-Lightning v0.10.2 with RTL v0.12.3.

Look after your wording. You're the one who's generating the invoice, and thus the pre-image. Isn't that correct? Your server decides what my invoice will be. The pre-image you generate is strictly correlated with my seed. What prevents you from generating an invoice with non-random pre-image?

It just froze. My internet was fine. The submission button was disabled for a couple of minutes, and the page remained the same.

EDIT: @BlackHatCoiner Failed to demonstrate how this is not verifiable, then wen't on a smear campaign. I'd advise to ignore him




I'm the developer. I'll answer your comments.

> Okay, so the thousand satoshis were successfully routed to you this time

There's a ton of reasons why sats are not routed properly through lightning.

I don't know if your wallet has issues or if the node your wallet uses has issues. This is the feedback that I got from LND core developers when trying to troubleshoot this.

I "fixed" your issue by resetting mission control on our lightning node.

This erases previous routing failures. I don't know why you had a routing failure to start with and I'm not responsible for that either, as your transactions don't run through my node. If it was a routing failure coming from a payout then please by all means report it and we will sort it. Payouts come out of our node.

For the record we are aiming for users that are using battle tested software(WoS, Zeus, LND, Alby)

If your setup is non-standard please don't use my app  

Would you mind explaining a little bit what's behind this? And perhaps answer the two previous questions:

It's explained on the fair section of the app -> https://roll.satsumo.xyz/#/fair and was written by my colleague. But I'll give you a TL;DR in bullets as I think its a format thats easy to digest


1) You pay us an invoice - the invoice becomes settled and has a preimage
2) the Preimage is a series of bytes on the invoice, as per -> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/lnrpc/lightning.proto#L3260-L3265
3) We decode that preimage and turn it into a NUMERICAL value. The "algorithm" to construct that number is here https://roll.satsumo.xyz/images/seed-generation.svg
4) That number is YOUR SEED. that SEED is a DETERMINISTIC INPUT for a randomness function. For the same input you get the same output, this is why its verifiable
6) We send you that seed back alongside with the code snippet that determines wether you win or not
7) You run the code and verify your result

The preimage, so in fact, the input, is generated by lightning and nothing to do with us. Hence fair.

So again, to answer your comment

> If I do it locally, and hand it over to you, with source code transparent, can't I cheat the game? Analogously, if I don't do it locally, and you hand me over the seed, can't you cheat me?

You have access to your seed the entire time, its automatically generated when you pay us, you have access to it, we have access to it. There's no cheating. The code is the same as shown in https://roll.satsumo.xyz/#/fair

> I think I've found a bug. I've sent another 1,000, but your page has stuck here. It doesn't do anything. I have not received anything back, so I assume the coin isn't being tossed in the background.


It could be issues with your internet connection - Did it just froze forever? You would need to show me some sort of error message or failed HTTP request. Otherwise I wouldn't know if its something to do with your setup or connection. You're the first person to run into all of these issues.

Okay, so the thousand satoshis were successfully routed to you this time. Generated a 1,980 satoshi invoice, and let it toss the coin. The page loaded, it was tails, I lost, and it showed me that if I wanted to verify the result, I should run the following command:

Ran it, and got:

Would you mind explaining a little bit what's behind this? And perhaps answer the two previous questions:

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I think I've found a bug. I've sent another 1,000, but your page has stuck here. It doesn't do anything. I have not received anything back, so I assume the coin isn't being tossed in the background.

I don't understand who's generating the seed. If I do it locally, and hand it over to you, with source code transparent, can't I cheat the game? Analogously, if I don't do it locally, and you hand me over the seed, can't you cheat me?

I didn't. I just tried to pay the invoice as a first step. Just tried again, but wasn't possible neither.

"I don't think you've made it clear on what am I betting at." - This is useful feedback, thanks. We should make it clearer that it's a 50:50 coin toss.

"I expect to know who's generating that random number" - this is generated by Ruby, as described in /fair, using the code:

```
(0...100).to_a.sample(random: Random.new(Random.new.seed.to_i))
```

This seed allows our users to run the code locally and verify that they got the same number we did.

What more would you like to know?

As for routing - we have lots of capacity in our channels. Should be plenty to handle a 1000 satoshi bet. Are you sure you followed steps 1 and 2 in order? If you make a request (step 2) before paying the invoice (step 1) it won't execute...

(And thanks for the feedback!)

I don't think you've made it clear on what am I betting at. I'll be generating a seed that is supposed to make gambling provably-fair, okay. I'll be paying your lightning invoice, also okay. Now, at this point, I expect to know who's generating that random number, as your provably fair page says.

I tried to send you 1,000 sats, but it ran out of routes. What's your lightning node? That's mine: https://1ml.com/node/03cd32110547654132187f08e217b20e3ce69f49dff5119da5597a5c0f8a2c7a5e. I have about 0.04 BTC as sending capacity across the network, so it's probably not my fault.

Edit: I strongly recommend you avoid this service. Please read below why.

TL;DR:

• The game isn't provably fair.
• Developer isn't trustworthy.

Thanks for trying it out! We have already tested it on the testnet, and now we are hoping to get people playing with it in a real, live environment.

NB - bets can be as low as 1000 Satoshi

I checked generated LN invoice and found out it's for Bticoin mainnet. Consider use Bitcoin testnet instead if you want to see tester.

Hey fellow Bitcoiners - myself and a friend are currently building/learning how to build products and services on the Lightning Network (BTC), and we've just launched our first prototype product

If anyone wants to take a look themselves, this is our URL:

https://roll.satsumo.xyz/

TL:DR V0.1 is a really simple, provably fair, no signup, instant payment, 50:50 'coin toss' app.

We're trying to find 'Beta testers', and I was wondering if anyone might be willing to have a play? Failing that, I was wondering if any of you had any advice / tips on how to go about finding testers?

Being a Bitcoin product, on the rather nascent Layer 2 Network 'Lightning', the niche is quite small

Feel free to share the link with anyone you think might be interested, and please feel free to provide feedback, either public of private