Topic: Are you sick of getting scammed?! Then come on in...... (Read 2041 times)

I am also confused by this.....If you are calling my offer a scam, you are simply trolling for the sake of trolling. 

If you are saying Obsi is a scam, I have no ground for comment and it should be posted elsewhere. 

I'll vouch for yochdog as having done a successful multi-thousand dollar deal with him a few months back.

You are mis-informed.  I still own the vast majority of my mining operation.  Less than 30% is owned by others.  There is no debt associated with the mining company, as they are shares....not bonds. 

I will gladly share financial statements with interested parties.....in fact I had planned on it and have consolidated statements from the last 3 years ready to go. 

I have no desire to float shares as a pass-through to my firm.  I do not much care for the GLBSE format, and feel dealing directly with lenders is the better path. 

I am not offering 20%.  I am offering 10%.....on an annual basis.  I earn 20-30% from my equity in a very profitable firm, and it is an opportunity unavailable to anyone but current partners.....hence the great ROI. 

I know you have a large mining operation, but you already sold most (all?) of that on GLSBE, so Im not sure how much BTC income you still have and whats going to happen to that debt  if BTC exchange rate doubles or triples?


I assume you will tell any potential investors which firm that is, so they can check the financials and your claim to a stake of it? Perhaps rather than requesting a loan, you could float some shares of that company on GLSBE, backed up by actual company shares, and you take your cut of dividend payments or management fees?


20% APR is also a big red flag, just sayin.

Who are you calling a scam? Yochdog or Obsi? Do you have any evidence to back it up?

scam

You forgot about OBSI.HRPT (1% per day), which is still going!

Hey guys, thanks for all the responses.....I will try to address all of the questions/replies in this post.


What are my other BTC obligations?

I currently have an 11,000 BTC loan with a long time forum member who wishes to remain anonymous.  The balance on that loan has been paid down to 9,000 BTC and the next payment is not due until February.  I do, however, plan on aggressively paying it off early as I have been thus far.  There is a thread dealing with that loan in the lending sub-forum, and I post periodic updates for those interested parties.  


Wouldn't it make more sense to do the loan on a dollar basis?

In a perfect world?  Absolutely.  The issue I see is most holders of substantial BTC do not wish to lend in dollars.  They think in terms of BTC and want to loan in terms of BTC.  In addition, many of them believe the price of BTC will only go higher (debatable of course), thus do not want to lock into a dollar loan and lose out on appreciation.  I think it is just a simpler solution to do all calculations in BTC, in conjunction with the aforementioned price collar.  



I wholeheartedly agree.  There are 2 opportunities with available to me for which I will use the funds......one major and one minor.  The major opportunity is simply purchasing more equity in my firm.  I currently own a sizable minority interest, but more has been made available to me.  The business is 46 years old, and has never earned less than 20% ROE.  Many years we are closer to 30%.  It makes a lot of sense for me to borrow at 10% and earn at 30%.  The second, much smaller opportunity is engaging in small currency exchange transactions.  I have several individuals who transact through me, and I make a nice spread on both sides.  It is not much, but I believe it can grow if I had more working capital available.  



I don't see this as an attack at all.....people SHOULD ask hard questions, and be very skeptical.  If we had more of that, perhaps Pirate would not have been able to take so many people for so many Bitcoins.  Above I briefly explain the opportunities, and there is not much more to it than that.  You would be financing my acquisition of very attractive equity in a business I have worked for nearly a decade.  

I completely agree a lower APR does not automatically remove any risk of a ponzi.....I just hope in doing a more rational type of lending that is successful, persons will stop engaging in the type of schemes that inevitably blow-up.  The insanely high yield offerings we see bandied about are a red flag, and a huge one at that.  

Sorry, but unless you disclose the nature of these and offer some proof, there is nothing in your post to distinguish you  from pirate in the early days. Merely offering lower returns does not automatically make you more trustworthy. I can offer 1% APR or 0.1% APR and still walk away with your money.

Please don't see this as an attack. From what I have seen of you on these forums, I believe you are trustworthy. I'm just pointing out that you will need to provide some proof of your RL business.

I think potential lenders will also want to know more about how you will spend or invest their money to achieve that 20+% APR. Without that knowledge, they cant assess the risk and it would be difficult to distinguish your offer from a slow ponzi.

if you plan to convert the BTCs to USD and use the dollars to accelerate your dollar based business wouldn't it make more sense to make the loan on a USD basis? Parties agree on a BTC->USD , USD->BTC conversion rule (like MtGox weighted average or similar). I use BTCs to transfer funds but both the principal and the interest is accounted in dollars. When you pay back you simply calculate the BTC value of the payment and transfer the BTCs.

This way you are clearly hedged and the entire scheme is simpler to comprehend.

This is not constructed in the right way. The price of an option increases with the time to maturity, because the probability that the bitcoin price will change more than 30% is of course higher if you wait for 6 months than if you wait only three months.
If you want to bundle two options into the price of the loan then you will have to offer more for a loan with a longer time to maturity. Otherwise only a stupid person would loan out for longer than the minimum 90 days.

BTW. I believe collar is the right term for this construction.

I 100% agree.

That is precisely why I am offering a legitimate, REASONABLE lending opportunity to the forum.  The sooner we run out the shysters and HYIP morons, the better the future of BTC will be. 

all this constant scamming is going to turn the general public away from bitcoin.  we need BRIGHT news, not scandals!

Never! This is bitcointalk.org, after all.

no......but I would prefer to keep them 50 BTC and above. 

I'm not sure you can prevent one from appearing.

Is there a minimum deposit size?

LOL.

Well played sir.  Well played. 

But no.....I prefer to keep this a direct lender/borrower relationship.

Will there be a pass-through on GLBSE?

This.  Exactly this. 

Normally collaring a price is done with options. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collar_(finance) I suppose you are just cutting out the middle-man!

That would probably fit!

I use "price collar" loosely.....but it is a good approximation. 

I don't even know if that type of financial contract has a name
I fully understand the example, but I can't describe it. Maybe, "The purchasing power of the returned asset is limited to a gain or loss of 30% by varying the amount returned"?

The collar would be tied to the $/BTC exchange rate, and the best way to illustrate is by example:

Lets say you lend me 500 BTC, and at funds transfer the exchange rate is $10/BTC.

For example sake, lets assume you have earned 50 BTC in interest, and now want to call all 550 BTC.  However, the exchange rate is now $4/BTC.  Rather than getting back only your 550 BTC worth $2,200 (when you lent 500 BTC worth $5,000!), we would use a formula to ensure the 30% collar is dollar terms.  In this case we would take $3,850 (550*7) / 4 (spot rate) and arrive at a repayment of 962.50 BTC.

Essentially, we are insulating both borrower and lender against extreme loss of purchasing power by putting in a floor and ceiling on the exhange rate.  However, the collar only kicks in once the exchange rate has moved beyond the collar limits. 

By 30% collar what do you mean? Is it that if BTC rises by 30%, you return 30% less BTC, and if BTC falls by 30%, you return 30% more BTC? Or are you buying options, writing CFD's, or agreeing to forwards and futures for 30% of the total lent amount? Or, are you simply going to absorb the loss if BTC rises by 30%?

I think the 30% collar protects pretty well.  I am more than willing to take that risk quite honestly......I think it washes out on the long run. 

^^good question! please be aware you have with all Bitcoin business an foreign currency exposure and you cannot hedge it. this risk exist always if you break out the closed Bitcoin economy which not realy exist at the moment.

EDIT: otherwise you have to stay within bitland but it's a dream so far.

EDIT2: you are able to hedge it if you buy BTC with the same amount of your business.

What if the exchange rate for bitcoin rises to $15 or more? (i.e., rises more than 20-25% on an annual basis?)

[Edit: just read this:

]

I think now that nearly every single HYIP scheme has blown up, thus bringing a sense of reality back into the BTC world, a legitimate lending opportunity at sane rates has a place.  


I am offering 10% APR on loans, with the following terms:

-Maximum 500 BTC per lender
-Minimum 90 day commitment from date of first funds transfer
-After 90 days, funds can be called at month end with 5 days notice.  If funds are absolutely needed before a month end, they will be returned but without the partial months accrued interest. 
-Funds can be returned by borrower with accrued interest at any time, for any reason without penalty
-Exchange rate collar of +-30% to protect both lender and borrower from extreme price movements.  Starting point of the collar will be the spot price at time of each funds transfer


Now, I will attempt to preempt the inevitable questions:

Q.  Why on Earth would I lend to you when I can get with Pirate, Hashking, PPT, Bitcoinmax , etc?
A.  Two reasons.  First, those rates are bullshit as we are all finding out.  Second, you will actually get your money back.  

Q.  What will you be using the borrowed BTC for?
A.  I have legitimate real-world business opportunities that offer me 20-25% annual returns.  They are limited in scale, but I am glad to make the 10-15% spread for my trouble and avoid the anal exam that comes along with bank loans.  

Q.  What is to keep you from running away with all of my BTC?
A.  I have a strong desire to see BTC succeed as a parallel economy.  In order for that to happen, responsible lending/borrowing must occur and I see myself as part of that evolution.  I have a LOOONG track record of doing multi-thousand dollar deals with ample opportunity to scam people.  Never once has doing so ever entered my mind.  My word is my bond and I will never break it.  

Q.  This is great, but how will the details work?
A.  I want this to be as transparent as possible.  If lenders allow me, I will list them on a publicly accessible spreadsheet.  This will list a history of loans made, as well as repayments.  Interest will be calculated on a %/12 basis and shown as well.  Those lenders that wish to remain anonymous will not be listed.  



I am in this for the long haul.  The sooner we dispense with insane, clearly fraudulent rates of return, the better off the entire community will be.  

10% that you actually get is infinitely more than 3,300% that is imaginary.