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Topic: ASICMINER vs. Cado.AvalonB3 (Read 6914 times)

full member
Activity: 189
Merit: 100
You are here ---------> but you're not all there.
December 27, 2013, 01:10:24 AM
#60
How do we get our shares or some compensation for our shares that have been transfered back to the issuer?
This project has ended now...he sold the avalons and the dividend plus hardware sale will be payed as a last dividend.
You need to send him a signed message of your bitfunder address to [email protected] with a note that this is ok for you to get your dividend send to xxx address.

The thread is here https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ehemaliger-avalon-gruppenkauf-letzte-abrechnung-194505 wonder why there is no translation in english for you guys...




Thank you Elitenoob!
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
December 25, 2013, 10:25:08 PM
#59
How do we get our shares or some compensation for our shares that have been transfered back to the issuer?
This project has ended now...he sold the avalons and the dividend plus hardware sale will be payed as a last dividend.
You need to send him a signed message of your bitfunder address to [email protected] with a note that this is ok for you to get your dividend send to xxx address.

The thread is here https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ehemaliger-avalon-gruppenkauf-letzte-abrechnung-194505 wonder why there is no translation in english for you guys...


full member
Activity: 189
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You are here ---------> but you're not all there.
December 25, 2013, 10:03:08 PM
#58
Bitfunder was going to transfer all shares back to the issuer. @Candoo I think is the issuer.
How do we get our shares or some compensation for our shares that have been transfered back to the issuer?
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
November 08, 2013, 10:13:25 PM
#57
Now Bitfunder is closing I'm wondering if Cado.AvalonB3 is going to offer a migration path like TAT have done so we can get our shares out before the bitpocolypse.

Anyone know anything?

hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 502
July 02, 2013, 07:55:45 AM
#56
Hashrate can be found at BTCGuild as user 67117 and BitMinter user realasicminer :-)

Any updated info on hash rates?

http://www.asicminercharts.com/live/

Good call.  Many thanks.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
July 02, 2013, 03:49:26 AM
#55
Hashrate can be found at BTCGuild as user 67117 and BitMinter user realasicminer :-)

Any updated info on hash rates?

http://www.asicminercharts.com/live/
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 502
July 02, 2013, 03:39:49 AM
#54
Hashrate can be found at BTCGuild as user 67117 and BitMinter user realasicminer :-)

Any updated info on hash rates?
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1090
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
June 29, 2013, 01:36:17 PM
#53
 Wink

3.4BTC * 400,000 = 1360,000BTC
> 0.136 billion USD

Q: How much hashing power does Bitfountain plan to deploy within this year?
Friedcat: 800-1000T within this year.

Q: What are the specs of the second batch? When will the mass production begin?
Friedcat: The exact numbers will only be known when the chips are out of fab, currently we only have simulated results. Mass production will be in October the earliest.

Q: What would be the physical address of the offshore company be to registered?
Friedcat: It will be on an island where financial freedom is more possible to achieve.

Q: Do you have plans for future other than mining and selling hardware?
Friedcat: ASICMINER's business is confined within mining and selling mining hardware. We might do some   
periphery work, but that won't be too distant.

Q: What kind of investors or business partners are you keeping in touch with?
Friedcat: We currently don't accept external funds, so there is no private investors. The partners we keep in touch with are mostly tech related.

Q: After the batch shipping from Avalon and BFL, how would the manufacturers in Shenzhen compete with them?
Friedcat: Our advantage to manufacture chips at the cost price is invincible.

Q: Are you hiring? What kind of people do you need?
Friedcat: We need people specialized in analog electronics, but we don't put much hope in finding this kind of people within China.

Q: Any plans or strategies that are suitable for the public to know?
Friedcat: We will be focusing more on the area that we have the most advantage in. It depends on whether we have more advantage in chip design or the ability to deployment fast.

Q: Why the hashing power of AM is not stable?
Friedcat: The variance of solo mining itself is relatively huge. And the whole network is being DDOS'ed lately, the 0.8.3 version of the software has fixed some bugs so as to prevent DDOS.
hero member
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June 06, 2013, 09:52:44 AM
#52
True, I guess you'd have to make the assumption that all AM shareholders have the same liquidity/cash needs in order for this to be true.  And my point about the output being pegged to price, looking back now that I've had my morning coffee, is completely irrelevant because the total output scheduling is fixed by the code, and AM's hashing power only determines what share of that output they're collecting.  So the price should (big, big 'should' there) just be fixed to the inflation rate (assuming no speculation-driven changes in price).  I was drawing my original musings from the gold mining analogy, but obviously that doesn't hold here.
hero member
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Unlimited Free Crypto
June 06, 2013, 09:47:53 AM
#51
^^^^^ it's really quite simple. Why would ASICMINER want to destroy Bitcoin, and the lovely highly profitable company they have made, with a 51% attack. That doesn't make any sense.

And it's not exactly an easy task to accidentally get over 51%, and accidentally then breaking everything. 1% of the Bitcoin mining network is an incredible amount of processing power. It's not like AM will be at 46% and than accidentally turn one too many 100 T/H server blades on and then destroy everything.

Sorry I started to ramble a bit there, but my main point was that I was wondering if it would ever be possible for prices to be pegged to AM's output.  This was the bigger question in my mind, although now that I think about it, the 51% attack actually would serve as a limiting upper bound in the market for that exact reason (that AM would never push beyond the 51% mark).  However, if they were in the 40-45% range (assuming they'd set up a buffer of sorts to make sure they didn't go past the 51), wouldn't they still be able to collectively control prices?  I mean obviously this is mostly a theoretical argument, but after studying economics in school, you start to postulate about these kind of things for fun.

If you meant by controlling prices that they control how many new coins to introduce to the market then I think you did not consider that the mined coins are given to the shareholders as dividends weekly.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 502
June 06, 2013, 08:40:08 AM
#50
^^^^^ it's really quite simple. Why would ASICMINER want to destroy Bitcoin, and the lovely highly profitable company they have made, with a 51% attack. That doesn't make any sense.

And it's not exactly an easy task to accidentally get over 51%, and accidentally then breaking everything. 1% of the Bitcoin mining network is an incredible amount of processing power. It's not like AM will be at 46% and than accidentally turn one too many 100 T/H server blades on and then destroy everything.

Sorry I started to ramble a bit there, but my main point was that I was wondering if it would ever be possible for prices to be pegged to AM's output.  This was the bigger question in my mind, although now that I think about it, the 51% attack actually would serve as a limiting upper bound in the market for that exact reason (that AM would never push beyond the 51% mark).  However, if they were in the 40-45% range (assuming they'd set up a buffer of sorts to make sure they didn't go past the 51), wouldn't they still be able to collectively control prices?  I mean obviously this is mostly a theoretical argument, but after studying economics in school, you start to postulate about these kind of things for fun.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1018
Buzz App - Spin wheel, farm rewards
June 04, 2013, 02:08:32 PM
#49
^^^^^ it's really quite simple. Why would ASICMINER want to destroy Bitcoin, and the lovely highly profitable company they have made, with a 51% attack. That doesn't make any sense.

And it's not exactly an easy task to accidentally get over 51%, and accidentally then breaking everything. 1% of the Bitcoin mining network is an incredible amount of processing power. It's not like AM will be at 46% and than accidentally turn one too many 100 T/H server blades on and then destroy everything.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 502
June 04, 2013, 11:13:31 AM
#48
So then the question remains: what's to stop AM from reaching an absurd amount of the network hashing power to even accidentally initiate a 51% attack?  Obviously friedcat would tune down reinvestment and pay out higher dividends unless more mining companies come in to ameliorate the hashing disparity.  The only problem I see is the same problem we all see in the world economy right now, a lack of access to capital for competing startups, an effect thats compounded by the fact that AM is actually producing pure capital itself rather than a good or service thats sold through secondary fiat currency markets.

Nobody's willing to lend to the dodgy "BTC ASIC MINING RIG" posts on BTCjam, nobody's willing to take venture risks on emerging companies, and nobody's stepping up to combat the AM monopoly (hey Winklevoss twins, feel free to step in and found a decently competitive mining conglomerate here).  So with the status quo, what's to stop AM (in the long run) from gaining the maximum level of hashing power possible without initiating a 51% attack?  If they control that much of the hashing power, its definitely going to peg BTC/fiat prices to AM's output.  It would be a similar situation if there were only one gold mining company in the whole world...that one company and its shareholders would be able to dictate the global price to an extent (although generally the effect would only become significant if AM shareholders controlled 25% or more of the network hashing power and/or total BTC supply).

Would this price-AM output pegging be beneficial for BTC holders or detrimental?
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
May 31, 2013, 09:45:44 PM
#47
To me it actually doesn't matter what the overall TH rate is...what they seem to be able to do is maintain the ~30% of the total hash rate for the indefinite future if they have 266 TH (in reserve).

If they took 99% of the total hash rate we would all shit a brick about a 51% attack...that's no good either, whether or not it is a valid concern the perception would be bad.

If they add TH as other companies come online and are able to keep hauling in ~30% of every bitcoin mined per day...I'll feel like a safe investor with consistent returns. The hardware sales are nice bumps to the div's too.



full member
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FRX: Ferocious Alpha
May 30, 2013, 09:16:44 PM
#46
Speaking of this same share-of-mining-power argument though, are there any other assets/funds that have as robust of a expansion plan as AM though?  Because that ~0.03 dividend is hard to argue with right now.  That being said, I'm still rating AM as a "hold" rather than a "buy".  Wouldn't sell my shares (TAT's PT shares, actually...thanks again btw, TAT), but at the base shares trading at a price of >1.7 BTC, I can't really afford to throw down on additional shares atm, so I'm stuck where I'm at nonetheless.

And here we are about a week later with ASICMiner around BTC2.40 - BTC2.60. Don't know about you, but I'm glad I didn't sell out.

I've also been considering the fact that AM is selling Blades at a very healthy rate and very nice price (for the seller). That's essentially tapping into future mining, now. That means AM has effectively increased their total hashrate by the number of miners sold (less some possibly small percentage if you wish).

I read earlier where someone said it wasn't possible for AM to go beyond the 51% limit without essentially destroying BTCitcoin. That isn't true. Selling mining cards gives them essentially the ability to do just that: capture future mined BTCitcoin now.

That's why the dividend can be so far above the mine production rate.

I also notice that it's possible they are holding some of the proceeds from those sales to use for R&D or future dividends. That's excellent business management. I'm certain others have noticed also, and that's part of the reason for the current high share price. And it may continue.

They were pushing further up to around 3 BTC at the end of last week.  And yeah, the price isn't so important as is the rate of return via dividends.  It could very well be possible that people are just willing to accept a lower yield from AM in exchange for the safety of the asset.

This is exactly it.  It doesnt matter to me, and I am sure many, what it costs to get shares of ASICminer.  Buy in regardless of price on late Monday early Tuesday, sell Wednesday night or early Thursday, gain extra BTC from dividends, repeat. Price fluctuation from Tuesday to Wednesday is nill 
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 502
May 30, 2013, 05:19:11 PM
#45
Speaking of this same share-of-mining-power argument though, are there any other assets/funds that have as robust of a expansion plan as AM though?  Because that ~0.03 dividend is hard to argue with right now.  That being said, I'm still rating AM as a "hold" rather than a "buy".  Wouldn't sell my shares (TAT's PT shares, actually...thanks again btw, TAT), but at the base shares trading at a price of >1.7 BTC, I can't really afford to throw down on additional shares atm, so I'm stuck where I'm at nonetheless.

And here we are about a week later with ASICMiner around BTC2.40 - BTC2.60. Don't know about you, but I'm glad I didn't sell out.

I've also been considering the fact that AM is selling Blades at a very healthy rate and very nice price (for the seller). That's essentially tapping into future mining, now. That means AM has effectively increased their total hashrate by the number of miners sold (less some possibly small percentage if you wish).

I read earlier where someone said it wasn't possible for AM to go beyond the 51% limit without essentially destroying BTCitcoin. That isn't true. Selling mining cards gives them essentially the ability to do just that: capture future mined BTCitcoin now.

That's why the dividend can be so far above the mine production rate.

I also notice that it's possible they are holding some of the proceeds from those sales to use for R&D or future dividends. That's excellent business management. I'm certain others have noticed also, and that's part of the reason for the current high share price. And it may continue.

They were pushing further up to around 3 BTC at the end of last week.  And yeah, the price isn't so important as is the rate of return via dividends.  It could very well be possible that people are just willing to accept a lower yield from AM in exchange for the safety of the asset.
full member
Activity: 179
Merit: 100
Bitcoin: money chosen by the market.
May 25, 2013, 10:31:49 PM
#44
Speaking of this same share-of-mining-power argument though, are there any other assets/funds that have as robust of a expansion plan as AM though?  Because that ~0.03 dividend is hard to argue with right now.  That being said, I'm still rating AM as a "hold" rather than a "buy".  Wouldn't sell my shares (TAT's PT shares, actually...thanks again btw, TAT), but at the base shares trading at a price of >1.7 BTC, I can't really afford to throw down on additional shares atm, so I'm stuck where I'm at nonetheless.

And here we are about a week later with ASICMiner around BTC2.40 - BTC2.60. Don't know about you, but I'm glad I didn't sell out.

I've also been considering the fact that AM is selling Blades at a very healthy rate and very nice price (for the seller). That's essentially tapping into future mining, now. That means AM has effectively increased their total hashrate by the number of miners sold (less some possibly small percentage if you wish).

I read earlier where someone said it wasn't possible for AM to go beyond the 51% limit without essentially destroying BTCitcoin. That isn't true. Selling mining cards gives them essentially the ability to do just that: capture future mined BTCitcoin now.

That's why the dividend can be so far above the mine production rate.

I also notice that it's possible they are holding some of the proceeds from those sales to use for R&D or future dividends. That's excellent business management. I'm certain others have noticed also, and that's part of the reason for the current high share price. And it may continue.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 502
May 16, 2013, 03:05:29 AM
#43
My point about the ~0.03 BTC dividend is that its hard to argue with "right now", but once shit hits the fan and we see serious competition in terms of hashing power, what happens to share prices?  The correction will be enormous, especially with all these new blades, ASICs, and other Gh/s-level mining units start to hack away at the network.

The best bet I can think of is investing in a difficulty security.  I know there is at least one on BitFunder that pays out the difficulty level at the end of the month.  I'll be putting coin into that fund all summer.  I expect difficulty to hit 50 million by the end of July with the added hashing power of the now-shipping units.
hero member
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May 16, 2013, 03:01:06 AM
#42
Because that ~0.03 dividend is hard to argue with right now. 

In fact, it's easy as hell unless you think of AM as a short-term blip that will be gone or seriously crippled in a couple of years.


No, I agree with this entirely.  What happens to those share prices once we get another TH/s-level mining company on the map?  Tbh, I'm monitoring dividends and I'm just waiting for the correction to happen.  Most of my investments are in perpetual mining bonds that have a consistently small bid/ask spread so I can earn and get back out at a good price.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
May 15, 2013, 09:23:59 PM
#41
Because that ~0.03 dividend is hard to argue with right now. 

No, it isn't. It's very easy to argue with (I assume you meant against). In fact, it's easy as hell unless you think of AM as a short-term blip that will be gone or seriously crippled in a couple of years.

It's a bit of a gold rush here and people are rushing to cash in as quickly as they can, not realizing that they are damaging the long-term viability by hyping up the dividend yield like they are.

Despite what a lot of people will tell you, AM isn't "a special company"; it is a completely normal and potentially very profitable company. There aren't any "special circumstances" that dictate that AM should follow any kind of completely unique and innovative way of conducting business. They are subject to exactly the same math, the same rules of expenses and income, the same goals, as every other startup on the planet.

You know what the most retarded argument I hear is? "People invest in ASCIMiner rather than mining themselves, so they expect a quick profit". This speaks to a fundamental lack of understanding of how any investment market works, so serious that I recommend anyone thinking this for even a second should step back, read up on the basics of how stock markets work, and realize that the skillset required to run a slightly modified computer are far, far different than what is required to operate in the cut-throat world of stock markets.

I'm not trying to sound negative. I'm still confident that AM is one of the most promising companies in the cryptocurrency world, but there are very simple reasons why companies like Coinbase attract millions of dollars in investments, and that reason isn't that Wall Street suddenly became very stupid and cannot possibly understand how AM operates.

.b
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 502
May 15, 2013, 08:40:58 PM
#40
Speaking of this same share-of-mining-power argument though, are there any other assets/funds that have as robust of a expansion plan as AM though?  Because that ~0.03 dividend is hard to argue with right now.  That being said, I'm still rating AM as a "hold" rather than a "buy".  Wouldn't sell my shares (TAT's PT shares, actually...thanks again btw, TAT), but at the base shares trading at a price of >1.7 BTC, I can't really afford to throw down on additional shares atm, so I'm stuck where I'm at nonetheless.
hero member
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Unlimited Free Crypto
May 15, 2013, 10:25:17 AM
#39
EDIT: wrong thread..... oh god...
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
May 15, 2013, 10:19:48 AM
#38
AM dividend this week: .0362 per share.

That's the highest ever.  It also represents about 2.1% (109% APR) of the current share price on Bitfunder.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
May 14, 2013, 01:03:40 PM
#37
Wouldn't AM have much more to gain by opening their own exchange to replace gox?

Uhh, that is so far from their specialty. They need to focus on what they are best at. Yes, they should diversify a bit more in the future, but don't underestimate ASICMINER, they are smart cookies.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 502
May 14, 2013, 12:50:00 PM
#36
Wouldn't AM have much more to gain by opening their own exchange to replace gox?
sr. member
Activity: 294
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http://coin.furuknap.net/
May 14, 2013, 05:03:55 AM
#35
This "not mining only" is perhaps mostly a red herring.

I don't think so, which is probably why I have shares there still :-)

I understand that concern, though, but again, compared to holdings that have only one leg on which they stand (mining or sales, but not both) AM is infinitely more stable.

Whether the current price is anywhere near a real representation of value plus expectations... Well, that's part of the speculation game, isn't it?

.b
member
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May 14, 2013, 04:52:40 AM
#34
Wow. Panic selling already?

hero member
Activity: 756
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May 14, 2013, 04:50:06 AM
#33
What AM does to throw a wrench in it is to not do mining only

This "not mining only" is perhaps mostly a red herring. Sure some sliver of market exists made up by people interested to "feel like they're part of something" who will be spending 2 BTC on gear that will never in its useful lifetime mine 2 BTC. However these aside Asicminer's model is strictly mining. Whether it sells or deploys the units they still count towards the same ceiling. Logically it will sell a fraction and deploy a fraction. Even admitting that the buyers pay more than what their purchase is worth, how much more can that be? 10% overall? So if the sell/deploy splits out evenly this wrench being thrown is 5% worth of extra icing?
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
May 13, 2013, 02:16:14 PM
#32
Of course, theory makes it possible for AM to go outside BTC denominated income, do currency conversion to increase its yield to some extent,

Amusingly enough the exact same theory with currency conversion etc was what idiots like Gigavps and scammers like oh, I won't bother to name the lot were proposing is allowing Pirate to pay out "exceptional" APR. Just a thought.

Yeah, but snipping an argument mid-sentence sort of ruins the point :-)

AM has 'other revenue streams' which makes them more flexible and less susceptible to mining profit fluctuations or other issues that affect mining profitability.

In my view, a company has a good reason to pay out dividends when there is no way they can utilize their cash to grow their current market. AM right now is in that position so this is actually the very first time I'm comfortable with AM paying out dividends.

I would much rather see a company with potential growth hold on to any coin like their lives depended on it. As a share holder, I won't see any difference; a huge pile of cash on the books increases the share value, assuming an informed market.

The company, I trust implicitly with my investment, is better at evaluating how to utilize their money for growth than I am, so me getting money out of a company reduces the share value, not just by the amount paid out but from the lost opportunity that the company would have had with that cash. This is why Berkshire Hathaway has increased in value despite not paying a dime (except once) in dividends. Apple is in a similar position, where it is limited how much more they can grow their market share with money.

This turns a bit OT, but my point in this is that dividends in a growth company is bad, and I see AM more as a growth company (despite the aforementioned fixed income) than I see it as a mining operation with benefits.

This is absolutely correct, but the combination of fixed income, commodified market and huge fx risk has to have a name. Something like the widowmaker, for that's what it is. In fact this particular tarpit has killed more BTC names than any other.

Again, I don't believe these are the only legs on which AM stands. Where a two-legged stool is a complete disaster, with one more leg it's the most stable configuration there is.

Yeah, I know argument by analogy is really swell.

.b
sr. member
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http://coin.furuknap.net/
May 13, 2013, 02:02:21 PM
#31
So given these assumptions, shouldn't we all be able to determine the value of each mining share (within an expected range) of different companies at any given time using a time-weighted first-order Taylor approximation based on mining power?  At least it should be able to prove efficiency one way or another.

For pure mining assets, yes. What AM does to throw a wrench in it is to not do mining only and by operating in a country where costs are artificially low. These factors, however, only come into play in the long run; the first when we've seen some of the competitors come online and the latter when commoditization of ASIC mining has come a lot further than now.

However, factors come into play to make the profitability evaluation very complex here too. Right now, AM is leading the mining race _because_ they have and can build those Pentium IIIs and nobody else has anything of importance. However, we know that others are coming out with Pentium 4s, Xeons, Core 2 Duos, i7s and so on, and we know there are others setting up computation farms.

The big question is whether AM has the time, resources, and know-how to catch up; their current 20 TH/s is peanuts a few months down the line. Even the promised 200 TH/s isn't much.

friedcat himself has estimated on average 10% of the network speed, which correlates to ~฿10K/month on average. When they net ฿20K in one week and a bit right now, that actually represents 1/6 of what friedcat thinks they'll make in a year.

Yes, those 20K includes hardware sales, which makes the situation somewhat interesting and throws in that wrench I mentioned. AM can adjust their income by shifting between mining and other operations, so if they are losing competitiveness on mining they can shift to hardware sales while they develop new technology, in a very simplified sense. This brings strength through flexibility to AM shares compared to pure mining shares or pure hardware shares. This flexibility would be like Intel both renting out computing power and selling cpus and could move from one focus area to another depending on where the highest profitability lies.

Thus, in order to properly evaluate the value of AM, you need to look at what yields the highest profit from mining and hardware sales because AM can ride both waves. I believe the recent price hike is a result of AM demonstrating that they are able to ride both waves, first by mining profitably and then by selling and delivery hardware profitably. Compare this to some mining bonds (no one in particular) who promises some kind of revenue sometime in the future and hardware manufacturers who promise some kind of hashrate sometime in the future.

AM has killed off a lot of the uncertainty and people reward that with a higher share price.

Of course, most people are barely able to wrap their head around evaluating mining profitability, so throwing hardware sales profitability into the mix leads to inevitable chaos. That uncertainty leads to prices fluctuating because when there is no relatively easy way to say a share's value is X then what drives the price is hype and expectations, founded or otherwise.

.b
sr. member
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May 13, 2013, 08:49:06 AM
#30

Best thing I ever did was sell my S.Dice and bought AM @ .4.  I like companies that increase share value.
hero member
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May 13, 2013, 06:59:28 AM
#29
mining is a fixed income gig

yeah, just look at how fixed that income is...

I wonder what other security offers 45+% APR in dividends?

I don't think you quite catch the 'fixed' part. There's a fixed amount of BTC created each tick, and nothing AM can do will ever change that. That level is approximately 2 times what they're currently yielding or 4 times if they decide to screw Bitcoin over completely.

There is no way they can ever exceed that. Thus, fixed income, and the only thing that differs is the percentage of that fixed income that AM has.

At current price levels or perhaps slightly above, AM needs to maintain their current percentage for the rest of the current block reward rate to just cover the expected drop in value after block reward halving, meaning that any competitor entering the scene will drive the value (not price) per share down.

Of course, theory makes it possible for AM to go outside BTC denominated income, do currency conversion to increase its yield to some extent, or hope the uptake in BTC usage and subsequent transaction fee increase will catch up to the block reward subsidy drop.

In a perfect world, where investors do their math, they are currently investing in the potential for such earnings, not in the potential mining value of AM, even if they manage to stay alive for the full current block reward and maintain their current share of the hash rate.

.b

^This.  Correct.  Mining is an infinitely scalable business (theoretically in the short run), so AM will only ever garner a share of the revenues equal to its market share (i.e. share of the hashing power, we don't have much speculation here in the way of variation of returns between firms, etc.).

So given these assumptions, shouldn't we all be able to determine the value of each mining share (within an expected range) of different companies at any given time using a time-weighted first-order Taylor approximation based on mining power?  At least it should be able to prove efficiency one way or another.
hero member
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May 13, 2013, 06:55:17 AM
#28
gosh, you are quite hurt about something deep inside aren't you.

I'm not saying you're wrong mind, just that you have a real attitude problem. You watch out for that you hear? You might get high blood pressure and you might bleed out a bit faster when you fall from that high place you're on at the moment. You pro level understander of business you

Yeah. I'm bleedin'.

I don't think you quite catch the 'fixed' part. There's a fixed amount of BTC created each tick, and nothing AM can do will ever change that. That level is approximately 2 times what they're currently yielding or 4 times if they decide to screw Bitcoin over completely.

There is no way they can ever exceed that. Thus, fixed income, and the only thing that differs is the percentage of that fixed income that AM has.

Exactly.

Of course, theory makes it possible for AM to go outside BTC denominated income, do currency conversion to increase its yield to some extent,

Amusingly enough the exact same theory with currency conversion etc was what idiots like Gigavps and scammers like oh, I won't bother to name the lot were proposing is allowing Pirate to pay out "exceptional" APR. Just a thought.

This isn't a situation unique to Bitcoin or PMBs at all, it is a situation in all cross-currency investment. If you bought Apple shares denominated in US$ by selling Euros and the price of USD/Euro shifted, you'd have the same situation. The volatility of BTC makes this 'problem' more apparent, but it's far from unique.

Try running the same numbers for a stock denominated in Zimbabwe Dollars and you'd see you'd make a killing with a US$1 investment, having trillions or percent profit, but on the other hand, you'd still be stuck with $1 worth of assets when you convert your gazillion Z$ back to USD (assuming that was possible, of course).

It does depend on how you denominate your assets. Having ฿40 worth of mining equipment at $200/฿BTC is exactly the same as having ฿100 worth at $80 if you denominate your portfolio in USD. Thus, investing in mining is always a bet that prices of BTC goes down more than the depreciation of your USD-denominated equipment. Again, this is exactly the same as any cross-currency investments; If you invest in something denominated in currency A that produces revenue in currency B, you want currency B exchange rate to go down more than the depreciation of your A-denominated assets.

.b

This is absolutely correct, but the combination of fixed income, commodified market and huge fx risk has to have a name. Something like the widowmaker, for that's what it is. In fact this particular tarpit has killed more BTC names than any other.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
May 12, 2013, 09:02:05 PM
#27
Batch 3 ? Good luck.

Quote
but if their 2nd generation ASICs fail to impress, then they're looking at some serious competition that is probably ready to deploy better hardware before them.

has they announced the 2nd gen plan ?

I haven't found anything firm, but keep in mind, AMs ASICs are currently _very_ first generation (130nm). Even Avalons (110 nm) are second generation compared to AM. Upcoming (or potential) products have 90nm, 65nm or even 28nm technology, leaving AMs efficiency far behind in terms of power per square inch and kw/h. That means AM needs far more space and power to produce the same hash rate (roughly similar to running on Pentium III cpus compared to an i7). 

Right now, that's not a problem because AM is so profitable that whether the power cost is $.01 or $.20 doesn't really matter, but once the competition starts rolling out more efficient units, profitability per device will drop considerably for AM. AM can keep a distance by coming up with more modern chips, but I don't have any knowledge of their plans or progress of such chips, sorry.

.b
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
Bitcoin is new, makes sense to hodl.
May 12, 2013, 08:35:07 PM
#26
Batch 3 ? Good luck.

Quote
but if their 2nd generation ASICs fail to impress, then they're looking at some serious competition that is probably ready to deploy better hardware before them.

has they announced the 2nd gen plan ?
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
May 12, 2013, 08:01:37 PM
#25
Anyway, these threads are pretty funny. April 2012 nobody had heard or cared of Asicminer, everyone was gaga over gigavps' mining thing, which also went to about 1.5 before disappearing into the pits of nothingness, leaving behind the usual 70% hole in "investors'" pockets. Exact same "arguments" coming from a different set of six-week-old experts, meanwhile silenced by the inexorable workings of capital flow. Nobody wanting to sit down and do the math of how exactly PMBs work and what portion of the "dividends" is actual yield and what portion reflects returned principal. Everybody knowing better on the grounds that hey, why not. It's the Internet.

This isn't a situation unique to Bitcoin or PMBs at all, it is a situation in all cross-currency investment. If you bought Apple shares denominated in US$ by selling Euros and the price of USD/Euro shifted, you'd have the same situation. The volatility of BTC makes this 'problem' more apparent, but it's far from unique.

Try running the same numbers for a stock denominated in Zimbabwe Dollars and you'd see you'd make a killing with a US$1 investment, having trillions or percent profit, but on the other hand, you'd still be stuck with $1 worth of assets when you convert your gazillion Z$ back to USD (assuming that was possible, of course).

It does depend on how you denominate your assets. Having ฿40 worth of mining equipment at $200/฿BTC is exactly the same as having ฿100 worth at $80 if you denominate your portfolio in USD. Thus, investing in mining is always a bet that prices of BTC goes down more than the depreciation of your USD-denominated equipment. Again, this is exactly the same as any cross-currency investments; If you invest in something denominated in currency A that produces revenue in currency B, you want currency B exchange rate to go down more than the depreciation of your A-denominated assets.

.b
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
May 12, 2013, 07:45:58 PM
#24
mining is a fixed income gig

yeah, just look at how fixed that income is...

I wonder what other security offers 45+% APR in dividends?

I don't think you quite catch the 'fixed' part. There's a fixed amount of BTC created each tick, and nothing AM can do will ever change that. That level is approximately 2 times what they're currently yielding or 4 times if they decide to screw Bitcoin over completely.

There is no way they can ever exceed that. Thus, fixed income, and the only thing that differs is the percentage of that fixed income that AM has.

At current price levels or perhaps slightly above, AM needs to maintain their current percentage for the rest of the current block reward rate to just cover the expected drop in value after block reward halving, meaning that any competitor entering the scene will drive the value (not price) per share down.

Of course, theory makes it possible for AM to go outside BTC denominated income, do currency conversion to increase its yield to some extent, or hope the uptake in BTC usage and subsequent transaction fee increase will catch up to the block reward subsidy drop.

In a perfect world, where investors do their math, they are currently investing in the potential for such earnings, not in the potential mining value of AM, even if they manage to stay alive for the full current block reward and maintain their current share of the hash rate.

.b
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
"to be or not to be, that is the bitcoin"
May 12, 2013, 03:44:23 PM
#23
obviously, he is.  

But thank goodness Friedcat could see through that nonsense.  He's done really well for the shareholders.

yeah, just look at how fixed that income is...



I wonder what other security offers 45+% APR in dividends?

Read up on that: http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/the-best-investments-in-the-history-of-bitcoin/

Anyway, these threads are pretty funny. April 2012 nobody had heard or cared of Asicminer, everyone was gaga over gigavps' mining thing, which also went to about 1.5 before disappearing into the pits of nothingness, leaving behind the usual 70% hole in "investors'" pockets. Exact same "arguments" coming from a different set of six-week-old experts, meanwhile silenced by the inexorable workings of capital flow. Nobody wanting to sit down and do the math of how exactly PMBs work and what portion of the "dividends" is actual yield and what portion reflects returned principal. Everybody knowing better on the grounds that hey, why not. It's the Internet.

I'm pretty sure come 2014 you'll be gone and I'll still be here, saying the same thing about the same nonsense while a similar bunch of nobodies will be telling me all about how I'm jealous over their pyrite find and whatnot. And I'll have one more bead in the track record of publicly humiliating forum experts, and the links to prove it, which no forum expert will have the patience to review. Too superficial for that and after all hey, why bother to do the work when you can imagine you're right anyway. It's the Internet!

Easiest job in the world, to be honest. I'm starting to like it.


gosh, you are quite hurt about something deep inside aren't you.

I'm not saying you're wrong mind, just that you have a real attitude problem. You watch out for that you hear? You might get high blood pressure and you might bleed out a bit faster when you fall from that high place you're on at the moment. You pro level understander of business you
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
May 12, 2013, 03:26:49 PM
#22
obviously, he is.  

But thank goodness Friedcat could see through that nonsense.  He's done really well for the shareholders.

yeah, just look at how fixed that income is...



I wonder what other security offers 45+% APR in dividends?

Read up on that: http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/the-best-investments-in-the-history-of-bitcoin/

Anyway, these threads are pretty funny. April 2012 nobody had heard or cared of Asicminer, everyone was gaga over gigavps' mining thing, which also went to about 1.5 before disappearing into the pits of nothingness, leaving behind the usual 70% hole in "investors'" pockets. Exact same "arguments" coming from a different set of six-week-old experts, meanwhile silenced by the inexorable workings of capital flow. Nobody wanting to sit down and do the math of how exactly PMBs work and what portion of the "dividends" is actual yield and what portion reflects returned principal. Everybody knowing better on the grounds that hey, why not. It's the Internet.

I'm pretty sure come 2014 you'll be gone and I'll still be here, saying the same thing about the same nonsense while a similar bunch of nobodies will be telling me all about how I'm jealous over their pyrite find and whatnot. And I'll have one more bead in the track record of publicly humiliating forum experts, and the links to prove it, which no forum expert will have the patience to review. Too superficial for that and after all hey, why bother to do the work when you can imagine you're right anyway. It's the Internet!

Easiest job in the world, to be honest. I'm starting to like it.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
May 12, 2013, 01:00:29 PM
#21
Still butthurt over Asicminer not listing on your exchange, heh?
obviously, he is.  

But thank goodness Friedcat could see through that nonsense.  He's done really well for the shareholders.

mining is a fixed income gig

yeah, just look at how fixed that income is...



I wonder what other security offers 45+% APR in dividends?
member
Activity: 90
Merit: 10
May 12, 2013, 12:26:03 PM
#20
Thanks for the updated number, I couldn't find it anywhere (although I'm sure its prob posted a number of easily-accessible places).

Nice pretty graphs of ASICMINER's horsepower:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkPdXsQFT-vIdHRVUjQ5Ql9BQWR6OENLMkhyUktUblE#gid=14

As of this posting, this graph shows 20.2 TH/s, spread amongst pools.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
May 12, 2013, 09:03:21 AM
#19
Still butthurt over Asicminer not listing on your exchange, heh?

I don't particularly care one way or the other that Friedcat decided to fuck his investors over and they're too stupid to realize it. Far as I'm concerned that's the best possible outcome then.

Do some simple math. 0.007 + 0.007 + 0.007 + 0.007 on a 1.x stock that has no future, as mining is a fixed income gig. Consider this:

Quote
The domestic textile industry operates in a commodity business, competing in a world market in which substantial excess capacity exists. Much of the trouble we experienced was attributable, both directly and indirectly, to competition from foreign countries whose workers are paid a small fraction of the U.S. minimum wage. But that in no way means that our labor force deserves any blame for our closing. In fact, in comparison with employees of American industry generally, our workers were poorly paid, as has been the case throughout the textile business. In contract negotiations, union leaders and members were sensitive to our disadvantageous cost position and did not push for unrealistic wage increases or unproductive work practices. To the contrary, they tried just as hard as we did to keep us competitive. Even during our liquidation period they performed superbly. (Ironically, we would have been better off financially if our union had behaved unreasonably some years ago; we then would have recognized the impossible future that we faced, promptly closed down, and avoided significant future losses.)

Over the years, we had the option of making large capital expenditures in the textile operation that would have allowed us to somewhat reduce variable costs. Each proposal to do so looked like an immediate winner. Measured by standard return-on-investment tests, in fact, these proposals usually promised greater economic benefits than would have resulted from comparable expenditures in our highly-profitable candy and newspaper businesses.

But the promised benefits from these textile investments were illusory. Many of our competitors, both domestic and foreign, were stepping up to the same kind of expenditures and, once enough companies did so, their reduced costs became the baseline for reduced prices industrywide. Viewed individually, each company's capital investment decision appeared cost-effective and rational; viewed collectively, the decisions neutralized each other and were irrational, just as happens when each person watching a parade decides he can see a little better if he stands on tiptoes.

After each round of investment, all the players had more money in the game and returns remained anemic. Thus, we faced a miserable choice: huge capital investment would have helped to keep our textile business alive, but would have left us with terrible returns on ever-growing amounts of capital. After the investment, moreover, the foreign competition would still have retained a major, continuing advantage in labor costs. A refusal to invest, however, would make us increasingly non-competitive, even measured against domestic textile manufacturers. I always thought myself in the position described by Woody Allen in one of his movies: "More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly."

For an understanding of how the to-invest-or-not-to-invest dilemma plays out in a commodity business, it is instructive to look at Burlington Industries, by far the largest U.S. textile company both 21 years ago and now. In 1964 Burlington had sales of $1.2 billion against our $50 million. It had strengths in both distribution and production that we could never hope to match and also, of course, had an earnings record far superior to ours. Its stock sold at 60 at the end of 1964; ours was 13.

Burlington made a decision to stick to the textile business, and in 1985 had sales of about $2.8 billion. During the 1964-85 period, the company made capital expenditures of about $3 billion, far more than any other U.S. textile company and more than $200-per-share on that $60 stock. A very large part of the expenditures, I am sure, was devoted to cost improvement and expansion. Given Burlington's basic commitment to stay in textiles, I would also surmise that the company's capital decisions were quite rational.

Nevertheless, Burlington has lost sales volume in real dollars and has far lower returns on sales and equity now than 20 years ago. Split 2-for-1 in 1965, the stock now sells at 34-on an adjusted basis, just a little over its $60 price in 1964. Meanwhile, the CPI has more than tripled. Therefore, each share commands about one-third the purchasing power it did at the end of 1964. Regular dividends have been paid but they, too, have shrunk significantly in purchasing power.

This devastating outcome for the shareholders indicates what can happen when much brain power and energy are applied to a faulty premise. The situation is suggestive of Samuel Johnson's horse: "A horse that can count to ten is a remarkable horse, not a remarkable mathematician." Likewise, a textile company that allocates capital brilliantly within its industry is a remarkable textile company, but not a remarkable business.

My conclusion from my own experiences and from much observation of other businesses is that a good managerial record (measured by economic returns) is far more a function of what business boat you get into than it is of how effectively you row (though intelligence and effort help considerably, of course, in any business, good or bad). Some years ago I wrote: "When a management with a reputation for brilliance tackles a business with a reputation for poor fundamental economics, it is the reputation of the business that remains intact." Nothing has since changed my point of view on that matter. Should you find yourself in a chronically leaking boat, energy devoted to changing vessels is likely to be more productive than energy devoted to patching leaks.

So now. Next time you feel the itch to dick about in the general direction of MPEx people, not just me personally, try and hold on to the understanding that you're just some random Internet fuckwit and we're professionals, with a pro level understanding of business (something which incidentally is significantly above what's required for a business phd). This means that what you think is probably wrong, and the reason invariably is that you misunderstood something (most often something fundamental). And also lurk moar.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1001
Unlimited Free Crypto
May 12, 2013, 01:50:59 AM
#18
Are you suuuure it's overpriced?

No and yes, Look I have been around while GLBSE was on and I am sure you were too. When choosing to buy shares in a mining company it is normal to choose the one which gives you the best bang for your BTC (MH/s), For a second disregard anything else and focus on the fact that ASICMINER is a continuation of uMining. Just consider the facts, The current hashrate, Then yes it is overpriced because other mining assets would give you more (MH/s) per share.

However the no part is because of the other things we momentarily disregarded here are the whole point. Gradually and at a fast pace ASICMINER is closing this gap in MH/s per share and soon would be the dominant. So that is why I have been reinvesting all dividends in ASICMINER.

That is basically my whole rationale on this.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
bitcoin hundred-aire
May 11, 2013, 02:55:38 PM
#17
ASICMINER has 266 TH/s total, Cado.AvalonB3 has 255 GH/s total, ASICMINER has 1000 times more hashpower over around 10 times as many shares.  0.04 for Cado turns into 4 BTC per ASICMINER share.

"But wait! ASICMINER hasn't deployed their 266 TH/s!"
Well, if we're comparing current hashrates... then ASICMINER actually has 21 TH/s as opposed to Cado's 0 GH/s.  ASICMINER is infinitely more efficient Smiley

If you compare apples to apples, ASICMINER is clearly winning on both counts.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 502
May 11, 2013, 02:15:48 PM
#16
I mean the determination of an asset being over or undervalued is really subjective because everyone has different preferences for risk and when they want to be paid.  I just think it would be useful for investors to keep tabs on these kind of figures to make sure the markets are really running efficiently.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
May 11, 2013, 08:30:59 AM
#15
My opinions on this:
1. The marginal cost for ASICMINER is much lower.
2. ASICMINER is the developer of the chips. So they can sells as they develop better chips (Hence the latest 50 blades auction)
3. They have a headstart, A relatively long one at that.

I agree on the fact that the shares prices are overpriced at the moment in regard to the current hashrate. But this gap is getting smaller everyday and ASICMINER investors are speculating on what is going to happen after crossing the line of one ASICMINER share being entitled to more hash power than the price could buy.

My personal estimate is also considering speculation price increase after that so a share would be traded at 2BTC+

My humble opinion on the matter.

- Lophie

AM will likely be paying out .011 - .017 per share in divs in at least the short term.

If you buy AM shares at 1.5btc each, that's a rate of 48%-58% APR, roughly. (That does not include compounded interest if you are reinvesting...)

Are you suuuure it's overpriced?
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1001
Unlimited Free Crypto
May 11, 2013, 07:44:28 AM
#14
My opinions on this:
1. The marginal cost for ASICMINER is much lower.
2. ASICMINER is the developer of the chips. So they can sells as they develop better chips (Hence the latest 50 blades auction)
3. They have a headstart, A relatively long one at that.

I agree on the fact that the shares prices are overpriced at the moment in regard to the current hashrate. But this gap is getting smaller everyday and ASICMINER investors are speculating on what is going to happen after crossing the line of one ASICMINER share being entitled to more hash power than the price could buy.

My personal estimate is also considering speculation price increase after that so a share would be traded at 2BTC+

My humble opinion on the matter.

- Lophie
legendary
Activity: 2271
Merit: 1363
May 11, 2013, 07:42:08 AM
#13
This means that Cado.AvalonB3 is, in theory under the equal-hashing-power-output assumption, is approximately 13 times more efficient than ASICMINER at the current share price.

This is the dirty little secret the people pushing AM don't really want out.

So either I'm completely wrong, ASICMINER prices are very overpriced.

FTFY.

Still butthurt over Asicminer not listing on your exchange, heh?

Cado.AvalonB3 income will decline much faster than Asicminer when you are looking at the next 6 months and it is still uncertain when the miners arrive. So any calculations at this moment are more like TA, maybe dividends go up , maybe they don't.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
May 11, 2013, 07:38:25 AM
#12
This means that Cado.AvalonB3 is, in theory under the equal-hashing-power-output assumption, is approximately 13 times more efficient than ASICMINER at the current share price.

This is the dirty little secret the people pushing AM don't really want out.

So either I'm completely wrong, ASICMINER prices are very overpriced.

FTFY.

As of right now, AM is infinitely more efficient than Cado.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
May 11, 2013, 07:34:07 AM
#11
This means that Cado.AvalonB3 is, in theory under the equal-hashing-power-output assumption, is approximately 13 times more efficient than ASICMINER at the current share price.

This is the dirty little secret the people pushing AM don't really want out.

So either I'm completely wrong, ASICMINER prices are very overpriced.

FTFY.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
May 10, 2013, 06:29:47 PM
#10
Many thanks, I'll bookmark it.  Obviously this posting isn't meant to bash either asset (again, I own both), but rather clarify why exactly investors have chosen to price the assets in such a disparite manner.  If ASICMINER has added future hashing power, this could be a possible reason.  However, you have to wonder if maybe the ASICMINER name has become priced higher than its really worth.

There are several assets on the various markets that yield more or at least similar to AM, even when taking risk into account (or perheps especially when taking risk into account). There are those with potential far greater than AM but also at a considerable risk. There are those that provide steady and predictable income with little or no risk, but again with lower yield.

I do believe ASICMiner has gotten a lot of positive attention, and that positive attention is now reflected in a high share price. I too believe that AM is priced somewhat high compared to risk at this time, but if they manage to follow through on everything they say, it's undervalued by at least 20-30% in the short term. The risk is definitely high, and a problem with something at this point can crash the price down 30% in a day too.

The upsides, as I see them, is a short but proven track record of making promises and keeping them. Sure, they've been delayed deploying their first 50 TH/s, buit that's a drop in the ocean compared to other actors in the market. If AM continues to keep their promises, they'll have 30% of the network for at least six months of the year, which is a huge profit for investors.

The downsides or risks, again as I see them, is the lack of transparency in accounting and capital management plus the normal uncertainties about deliveries, equipment performance, and so on. I've gotten some answers from friedcat as well as a promise of more transparent books, but if their 2nd generation ASICs fail to impress, then they're looking at some serious competition that is probably ready to deploy better hardware before them.

Overall, I'm positive to AM and if I were to give an advice to anyone, I would say that compared to anyone that hasn't delivered for any reason and doesn't have experience operating a mine, AM is a safe bet. Whether it is correctly priced, I just can't tell. I think maybe it's a bit high at the moment, but that's just my risk profile talking.

BTW: never take financial advice from me, I suck at it.

.b
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
May 10, 2013, 01:57:50 PM
#9
Obviously I am biased since I run an ASICMINER PT, but consider the following and you will see it's an easy choice:

1. AM will be the ones helping raise the mining difficulty, and Cado will be affected a lot by that.

2. Cado still doesn't have a hard date from Avalon on when they will even receive their miners. In those weeks they are waiting, you could have been getting dividends from AM, and could have bought AM while it's still less expensive (the price will keep going up as they add hashrate).

3. Cado has no reinvestment plan, so after a month or so of hashing, dividends will get noticeably smaller and smaller each week, and share price will go down with it.

4. Dividends are paid every 2 weeks for Cado, which is less frequent than AM, which means less chance for you to reinvest for compounded interest.

5. Cado is paying 26 eurocents for electrity, that's pretty damn high.


sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
May 10, 2013, 01:48:08 PM
#8
Many thanks, I'll bookmark it.  Obviously this posting isn't meant to bash either asset (again, I own both), but rather clarify why exactly investors have chosen to price the assets in such a disparite manner.  If ASICMINER has added future hashing power, this could be a possible reason.  However, you have to wonder if maybe the ASICMINER name has become priced higher than its really worth.

It's certainly better known than Cado.AvalonB3 :-) Also, does the B3 mean Batch #3? If yes, than you will wait for first dividends about 3 more months.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 502
May 10, 2013, 01:44:10 PM
#7
Many thanks, I'll bookmark it.  Obviously this posting isn't meant to bash either asset (again, I own both), but rather clarify why exactly investors have chosen to price the assets in such a disparite manner.  If ASICMINER has added future hashing power, this could be a possible reason.  However, you have to wonder if maybe the ASICMINER name has become priced higher than its really worth.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
May 10, 2013, 01:38:00 PM
#6
Hashrate can be found at BTCGuild as user 67117 and BitMinter user realasicminer :-)
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
May 10, 2013, 01:37:03 PM
#5
Even at 21 TH/s, this would still make Cado 5.4 times more efficient than AM using the same calculations and assumptions.

Plus AM has 230 TH/s on the way, deploying few TH/s every week.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 502
May 10, 2013, 01:36:03 PM
#4
Even at 21 TH/s, this would still make Cado 5.4 times more efficient than AM using the same calculations and assumptions.  Thanks for the updated number, I couldn't find it anywhere (although I'm sure its prob posted a number of easily-accessible places).
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 502
May 10, 2013, 01:34:41 PM
#3
Granted - Cado has yet to generate dividends, but the only difference in the asset prices should come from the present-discounted value of the ASICMINER dividends produced in the interim period between now and when Cado begins releasing dividends.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
May 10, 2013, 01:33:03 PM
#2
AM has current hashrate around 21 TH/s.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 502
May 10, 2013, 01:31:34 PM
#1
So the Cado.AvalonB3 project has yet to release dividends, but I've done some calculations on its expected performance vs. ASICMINER shares.  All calculations are done under the assumption that hashing power between the two will produce the same amount of variation in block generation (i.e. hashing power from one group is equivalent to the others on a 1 to 1 basis).  The metric used is hashing power per asset price in BTC.

ASICMINER currently has ~8.7 TH/s (from what I could find - this number is probably outdated by around a week).

This means:

8700 Gh/s over 400,000 shares: 0.02175 Gh/s per share.  At a current share price of ~1.47 BTC, this means each share's yield is 0.01479 Gh/s/BTC, or 14.79 Mh/s/BTC.

Cado.AvalonB3, on the other hand, has a total hashing power of 255 Gh/s distributed over 33,000 shares, or a per-share hashing power of 0.007727 Gh/s per share.  Note that this is around a third the hashing power of an AM share.  However at the current price of around 0.04 (average over 7 days, approximate), this means a yield of around 0.1932 Gh/s/BTC or 193.2 Mh/s/BTC (hashing power per 1 BTC invested). 

This means that Cado.AvalonB3 is, in theory under the equal-hashing-power-output assumption, is approximately 13 times more efficient than ASICMINER at the current share price.

So either I'm completely wrong, ASICMINER prices are very overpriced, or (most likely) Cado shares are very underpriced.

Full disclosure: I am long on both Cado.AvalonB3 and TAT's microshare PT of ASICMINER at a 3:1 Cado to AM ratio.
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