Topic: Asking about anonymity when I pay with Bitcoin (Read 252 times)

All the more reason to stick to Bisq then, given that it is software which is run entirely peer to peer over Tor. You do not interact with a centralized website at all, meaning no Cloudflare and no tracing of your IP.

Yup, this. As I said above, the only way to be sure your data remains safe is to not share it in the first place. Anything you hand over (willingly or by accident) can and will be shared, sold, or hacked eventually.

It shouldn't, but it easily can, depending on your other online habits and activities. Data brokers absolutely have records of IP addresses which are linked to real life identities. This can be via frequently logging in to named accounts via that IP, frequently visiting your own social media pages, being linked to your physical devices and other data from them such as geolocation, simply via data your ISP has shared, and so on. Even you use a VPN, if you use a bad one then your VPN IP address will also be linked to your real identity. Although an exchange might not have access to this, they will definitely be able to sell the pairing of an IP address and a bitcoin address to interested third parties who will be able to de-anonymize you with this information.

Most DEX exchanges are not really decentralized (except maybe Bisq) but this should not be confused with anonymity or with IP addresses.
You can easily change your IP address with Tor or VPN, but IP address should not reveal your identity directly.
Cloudflare is a problem, they are supporting bunch of shitcoin nodes and they just censored Tornado Cash IPFS app bundle.

Almost all...so are you excluding Bitcointalk forum from this?
Even if they don't sell data, this can (and probably will) easily be hacked and exploited at some point in future.

Almost all services sell your data. There's easy ways to find this out by just using a clean email address. It's almost to the point its comical. They either do this according to their terms of service, or they ask you for permission to do this or even worse they just do it illegally. Normally, when you bring this issue up to them, they'll offer you come sort of compensation, which is also wrong, but I won't even go into that.

It's always best to assume your data, whatever data you give is compromised if using a third party. Simple as that. Whoever comes up with a trustless way of giving someone data, without them using it could be a very successful person. However, it's likely impossible to provably do that.

A lot of people are missing the point that a certain exchange or DEX not asking for KYC doesn't mean every trade you executed on their platform is totally anonymous.
You need to read the exchange Tos, check if the site is not using Cloudflare (which is enough to track you down), and also use the Tor browser

I disagree. Physical cash is the most reliable solution of them all (provided you live in a country which is only being subjected to moderate inflation rather than hyperinflation and people actually still want to hold your national fiat currency at all. Or you can easily access USD or some other currency.) It does not matter that you can't move it across borders - that is irrelevant for trading bitcoin peer to peer with others in your local area. Cash provides the only truly anonymous way to interact with the fiat banking system, as well as removing the risk of charge backs or similar disputes being opened which are the biggest risk when trading peer to peer. You can meet your trading party at a bank or an ATM, and either withdraw the fiat there and then or immediately deposit it once it has been handed over to completely eliminate any risks of counterfeit bills.

It is likely not possible to achieve total anonymity when paying with bitcoin, but in my opinion, the farther your transactions from the traditional financial system, the better anonymity you get. By traditional I mean transactions with digital currency such as the dollar, euro, and whatnot. Physical cash is an exception to the rule, but it is increasingly being removed from the fiat currency system and barely can be considered a reliable solution anymore, especially if we consider the fact you can't move it across the border anonymously. So, the only option that is left is using bitcoin, but here is the rub - before you can pay someone with bitcoin, you somehow need to obtain it first. How can you obtain bitcoin without touching the traditional financial system? The answer is you need to earn it either via mining or by offering your skills and goods in exchange for a desirable currency. Both these methods don't require providing any personal information, and, if done carefully and correctly, make your bitcoin more anonymous. The rest is straightforward: once you acquire anonymous bitcoin, you can safely pay your counterparty with bitcoin. Please note that, while anonymous bitcoin works fine for online transactions where your payee doesn't see your face, physical contact requires additional measures to protect your identity.

This depends entirely on the method of transferring fiat you use and specifics of this method or your country's banking system. Bisq never handles anything to do with the fiat trade, so has no record of names, account numbers, or other details which could be used to identify you. So any information you do or do not share is done entirely via the fiat trading method you choose. As far as I am aware, if you make a wire transfer or bank transfer to another person then in most countries it will show at least a name and usually an account number to the other party. I think most online payment systems such as PayPal or Cash App also show at least a name or a phone number.

I'm certain that bisq does not control fiat transactions which happens off their platform, so it's certain the buyer of your Bitcoin would see your bank account details necessary to make the payment. This would be the same with other means of exchange.
In this scenario, your data would not be fully exposed, but only enough for the other party to be able to make a transaction, and you confirm on receipt of the funds.

It's advisable to use a privacy-centered means of accepting fiat payment, to avoid disclosing personal details

You purchased Bitcoin with your credit card that has all your personal information details, so your identity will obviously be connected with your Bitcoin address.
One way to break connection between this two is to use some mixing services, or use some decentralized exchanges like Bisq to sell your Bitcoin.
Good alternative option is to use Lightning Network or some other second layer solution instead of mixing.
In future I would suggest purchasing and selling Bitcoin P2P with cash if you don't want to leave traces.

When you say that you are buying Bitcoin with credit card theb definitely it is from an exchange so yes the exchanges may have your credit card details since you are using the regulated exchanges and if I am not wrong even exchange with no mandatory KYC requires KYC for credit card purchases so the anonymity decreases whenever you use the fiat to purchase bitcoin unless its from decentralized p2p mode payment.

For me, the best solution is if BTC can be bought for cash at a crypto ATM that does not require any KYC, or at a physical exchange that also does not require KYC. Of course, in that case we should consider that we are very likely being recorded by surveillance cameras, but at least today it is easy to protect our privacy with a hat on our head and a mask on our face.

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@o_e_l_e_o, I'm just interested in something when it comes to Bisq and similar platforms when it comes to payment to one of the services/bank accounts after a person sells BTC or wants to buy it. I understand that all the data is saved locally on each client's disk, but do the clients see each other's data when they have a transaction - specifically if I sell Bitcoin and make a payment to my bank account, does the other party see my data?

The only way to be sure that your details/information are not being shared with third parties (be that governments, blockchain analysis companies, etc.), is to not hand over any details in the first place. The most reliable way to do this is to trade peer-to-peer, as I said above. My preferred peer-to-peer platform is Bisq, but you can find others here: https://kycnot.me/

Any centralized exchange, even those which say you can trade without completing KYC or otherwise handing over personal information, should be avoided. They can still gather and share information on you such as your IP address and wallet addresses, and they can simply lock your account and your coins and demand that you complete KYC.

If you want to buy via credit card, then you will have to obfuscate your bitcoin after you have bought them if you want to de-link them from your identity. I would suggest either using ChipMixer to mix your coins, or JoinMarket to coinjoin them. The outcome of both techniques is essentially that you receive different bitcoin that are not traceable to your original bitcoin.

What you are suggesting is if is there some company which we can trust they won't share your information. This is not anonymity (as they know who you are), and your privacy should never involve trust.

Do you want to prevent companies from sharing your information with third party and authorities? the only way to be sure is to never give your personal data to them.

Companies are forced by legislation and authorities to share your personal data with them, so you cannot trust them.

My suggestion is that you buy bitcoin from anonymous sources (as suggested by o_e_l_e_o) if you want to be anonymous.

But remember that sometimes it might be interesting to buy bitcoin in an exchange and complete the full KYC. Because it is safer to use an exchange for large amounts, and it is also good to put some bitcoin in your income tax reports if you have a lot of money invested in bitcoin.

Yes, the exchange which you buy the bitcoin on and proceed to send to someone else can simply contact your bank for your name and address, even if they did not ask you for KYC, since your bank already had this information.

Withdrawing it to a noncustodial wallet before sending it to someone else prevents the exchange from directly correlating your identity to your purchase for your friend, though it would be trivial for a chain analysis company to correlate you with the transaction.

What exactly do you mean by "Bitcoin arena"? It is not a phrase that is generally used in the Bitcoin community.

By Bitcoin arena, do you mean exchange? If yes, then the above suggestion bisq and LocalCryptos are good options but the medium of paying also has to be private.

There are other centralized and P2P platforms which promise to not disclose your information. But, whatever personal details you've shared with a 2nd party should be considered compromised, as they can be hacked and stolen, or the government through a court order forces them to reveal it.
Even if they promise not to keep logs, you should still not trust them entirely.

thank you very much!

Is there any Bitcoin services that are known to keep anonymity? A bitcoin arena that
It's known not sharing the information with 3th parties or governments?

It depends on the service you used to buy the bitcoin. They will absolutely know your identity (since they will receive it alongside your credit card payment) and will obviously know which bitcoin and addresses belong to you after they send you whatever you have bought. From there, it would be possible for them to track where your bitcoin then moves. The question then becomes whether or not they choose to do that or whether or not they share the information regarding your identity and bitcoin addresses with any third parties, such as blockchain analysis companies or your government.

The person you are paying with bitcoin would be highly unlikely to be able to figure out your identity based only on the above transaction, though.

There are two things you can do here to protect your privacy further and break the chain between your identity and your final payment. The first would be to buy bitcoin completely anonymously. This would usually mean over a peer-to-peer network such as Bisq or LocalCryptos, and paying with a non-traceable method such as cash or gift cards. From there, there is no link between your real identity and your bitcoin. The other option is to break the link between the transaction where you buy bitcoin with your credit card and any future transactions. This would be achieved by passing your bitcoin through a mixer or a coinjoin, meaning the bitcoin you end up with are in no way linked to the bitcoin you started with (which are linked to your identity via your credit card transaction). In this second case the company you bought bitcoin from would still know you bought bitcoin, but they would no longer be able to see where that bitcoin went or who you sent it to.

I want to ask about anonymity when I pay with Bitcoin. My question is whether when:

1. I register for an online trading arena that does not require personal identification
2. And I buy Bitcoin with my credit card
3. I pay someone with Bitcoin:

I know that my wallet address will be expose on the blockchain, but since I did not identify myself,
 my question is, can anyone (the person who received the money, government, etc.)
 can get to my identity just because I bought the bitcoin with my own credit card?

I would love to hear any opinion as well as recommendations on how to make transfers in complete anonymity. Thank you! <3