Topic: Automation UBI Wealth Inequality (Read 140 times)

Seems to me you are conflagration unrelated issues, UBI and economic conditions. Then you attempt to use the economic conditions as cause for a necessary effect, the UBI.

But why, if prosperity is sufficient as described, should GOVERNMENT EXPAND?

I make mistakes everyday.

Well maybe I was wrong.  If so, I am sorry I mischaracterized your situation and would like a little insight into if you feel you have mismanaged your money and why you are making less than $32,000  per year (top 1%).

I like the "even if" part. If you think I'm lying, then be a man and say that. You can come over for tea and we'll see if you're not shook from the moment you hit the city-limits. We can share stories of dead friends.

If you think that hard-work and money-management don't play a part in the success of people then again, there is no conversation to be had with you. I'm not a temporarily embarrassed millionaire, or whatever other generic, boring-ass label you want to throw at me. I'm a man living in poverty, fighting for a better tomorrow and I damn sure won't be blaming my problems on the fact that other people aren't giving me free things. That's a toddler's mindset. If you want a sugar-daddy, then you better go get your nails done. 

People will work even if they aren't rewarded for it? Then come do my job for me and I'll still collect the paycheck.

Even if Bill Gator is telling the truth this doesn't surprise me.  Many people have this belief that they will someday be wealthy if they work hard, they call this "temporarily embarrassed millionaires." A lot fall for the success stories because survivorship bias has such a strong effect, not everyone can succeed just by working hard.

Mr Gator, people will still work even if they aren't rewarded financially for it.  Humans want to create, solve new problems, innovate.

I’m vastly out of touch while I live in a garage in the ghetto and am one of the struggling people you describe; good one. I’m speaking from experience. You have a myopic view of the world and think you can put me (or others) in a box because we disagree with your pedantic mentality of whining and demanding. One of my prolonged periods without posting on here was due to being homeless.

Nobody who is unwilling and perfectly able to work should receive anything. You deserve to starve if you refuse to do anything, as it would be in nature or anywhere that makes sense. Why would we reward the leeches of society?

The fact that you think employment is theft tells me there is no conversation to be had with you.

Your mindset is tyrannical, thievery and will thwart any meaningful innovation. Nobody will work or create businesses if they are punished for it.

I’d respond to you point by point, but the cognitive dissonance and baseless claims aren’t even worth a second thought.

Bill gator speaks from a position of unchecked privilege and everything he has said has been through a lens that disregards the struggles of the vast majority of people on this planet. He is clearly part of the global 1% as most people on this board are and its really unfortunate how none of the 1% can see the flaws in a system that fails 99% of the planet simply because it serves them well.  
You are vastly out of touch.  Many people can't even afford the basic necessities to survive from month to month and here you are talking about how easy it is to save thousands of dollars.  Many people would need thousands of dollars just to stay afloat and are a one paycheck's worth crisis away from disaster.

Most of the new wealth is going to the top.  Capitalism requires money to make money.    The few people at the top are obtaining a higher and higher percentage of total wealth each year.  
https://www.salon.com/2017/10/27/a-new-gilded-age-wealth-is-more-concentrated-than-ever-before/
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/07/global-inequality-tipping-point-2030

They aren''t truly consensual if coercion is involved.  If we had a system of UBI where people who were unwilling to work still got paid, we could have labor marketplace that was actually consensual.  "Work for me at this price or starve" is not a consensual transaction and this is why capitalists hate UBI or any poverty alleviation that doesn't involve their theft of labor.

Money management has nothing to do with people who aren't earning a livable wage to begin with.  

Well we are saying that being good at stealing from others, tricking others or coercing others, is not okay.  Hockey is entertainment.  No one looks forward to seeing how much Bezos steals off his workers' paychecks.  

This is just a "might is right" argument

This is wrong and is a myth rooted in people not understanding the vast difference between a million and a billion

One bad 1000 dollar day can actually ruin a normal working-class person's entire life.


Also on earning money from money;Donald Trump, for example, has been terrible at managing money but also grew his fortune largely because he had one to begin with.  Making money with money is pretty foolproof under capitalism, especially during his era.

UBI is just re-branded Communism. Automation is just an excuse. Classic Hegelian Dialectic. Thesis - Antithesis - Synthesis or more commonly known as Problem - Reaction - Solution. In this case the "problem" is the unemployment "caused by automation". The reaction is UBI. The synthesis is the doorway into Communism by creating collective dependency on the state or otherwise.

Automation is just an excuse. The economy is contracting and robots are just a convenient scapegoat for companies to mass downsize. I would be more worried about the fact that people with unlimited resources no longer have a use for all of us "useless eaters" around than the fact people are unemployed. This is a recipe for mass death.

You get what you have the ability to achieve and put in the necessary work towards barring some unlikely circumstance. We have systems in place to catch those that are disabled, unjustly fired, suddenly unemployed you-name-it! More money comes out of my paycheck for disability than anything else. Nobody is saying the world is perfectly fair, so why don't we stop straw-manning my arguments and actually contend with some principals or concepts?


No.. They don't have to and if you're sitting on your ass waiting for your free paycheck from robots working then I have some bad news. That money is going to go towards those that invent, maintain and invest in the robots; not some random person that had nothing to do with it (unless those people decide otherwise, through consent - don't rape that mans money!).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

You've missed a key-component of what I've said and it feels almost as though you've purposefully avoided mentioning it. Money-Management, getting and maintaining employment, living below your means, setting up a budget, the list goes on. People have the freedom to make bad decisions. Which part of that is alarming to you? I've known some people that the worst thing that could happen to them is having money.


Some people inherit wealth and are lucky, but if they have poor money-management skills then guess where they're going to end up? I have no problem admitting that there are problems within our society, but it's not because we reward hard-work and competence. If you are able and unwilling to work, then there is no reason to take from someone else to provide for you.

Bill Gator I'm alarmed you say the problem is envy and laziness.  The hardest workers I know in real life are dirt poor. A lot of wealthy people are just lucky and don't have any exceptional abilities over others.  You fail to admit there is a real problem with the way society is set up.

See my earlier post here:  https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.49597775

UBI seems to be coming very soon anyways, they will have to when robots take over most of the work.

I didn't ignore what you've said. I quoted your words directly and responded to the primary reasoning you're presenting for your argument. You're saying that young people are unable to afford houses and you are incorrect if you are talking about America. Unwilling and unable are two entirely different things. The root of the problem is envy, poor money-management and laziness, if we're referring to most people being unable to afford things in America. I know tons of people making 6-figures that don't have an extra $10; it's not always about your skill-level or willingness to work.


Someone can be good at something (like making money) and that's okay. We let Wayne Gretzky play Hockey for all those years. It is not the fault of the successful that others are not.

Besides, these billionaires you keep referring to are doing more to provide people with jobs and security than you. Why then are you expending this energy to complain about their actions, which are keeping endless thousands of people fed, warm and clothed when you are doing SIGNIFICANTLY less quantifiable good than any of these people? It takes a lot more than greed to become wealthy.

I just dont like how you basically ignored what I said and gave solutions that don't tackle the actual root problem.

I will never agree with a person that thinks that is ok that someone has billions while others are stuck in real poverty.

Your quickness to jump to ad-hominem attacks shows that you're unable to contend with the ideas in front of you. I never disagreed that real wages were dropping or that costs were rising. Where is my delusion? Harder isn't impossible (or unable), even if I agree with what you're saying.

Which part of what I've said is incorrect?

You haven't addressed a single thing I've said, called me a couple of names and then stated a few statistics that are irrelevant to your claim that UBI is necessary or any point I made.


You're*


Nice "save".

You r an idiot plain and simple.  Look at the prices of houses in America 40 years ago and today.  Now look at REAL wages.  They are dropping across the board,  I had family members making $30 an hour out of high school back then.  Tuition and housing has skyrocketed, you are delusional.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF NEW WEALTH CREATED HAS GONE STRAIGHT TO THE TOP.

Jeff Bezos makes money off the backs of his slaves (workers), that is the fault with capitalism.

All you need to afford a house in America is a 580 credit score (which means you can mess your credit up pretty bad and still be eligible) and 3.5% of the home-cost as a down-payment if you apply for an FHA loan. If you have even worse credit, 500+ you can get an FHA loan for a home as long as you have 10% as a down-payment.

That means a couple thousand dollars, saved up from two-part time fast-food jobs can easily get yourself a home. I helped my friend find a car on Craigslist and we got him into a car that required NO work for $300; it was a Civic and the worst thing about it is a couple paint chips.

I'm failing to see how a couple thousand dollars and a bad credit score is unattainable, by just working the hours to pay your bills at a shitty job until you can make something more of yourself.

I've seen the bottom and if you're talking about America, then you're just wrong or lazy.


Wealth in general is reaching levels that haven't been seen before. There is less people in poverty in the world than ever before and we are pulling people out of poverty at rates even the most optimistic economist couldn't dream of.

It's not as though there is 100 units of wealth to distribute and thus these people having more means it is robbing the poor of their fair share. Rather wealth is created, not fixed and finite.



Please help me understand how it is greedy of me to believe that someone that has accumulated wealth through an abundance of consensual market transactions is entitled to consent to which transactions they put their earnings towards.

Universal Basic Income will be needed very soon, the rise of automation is removing the need for human labor in a lot of sectors.   

Wealth Inequality is reaching levels that haven't been seen before, when this gets out of hand society will collapse and everyone loses.  Poor people would rather flip the game board over and start all over at this point.

Younger generation can't afford houses, cars, etc.  The boomer generation had it nice but they pulled the ladder up behind them.

I realize this forum is filled with greedy libertarians somehow think that "self made" men like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk deserve their wealth.