BCH launch shows us how irrelevant marketcap can be

Turkiwi

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 02, 2017, 07:04:42 AM

10 billion dollar network emerged out of thin air. Or did it?

Marketcap is a simple multiplication of price of a single coin by total number of coins in economy. It implies that there's a free market where every participant can easily sell or buy given coin.

But is it the case with today's BCH? As of now, almost no exchange actually supports BCH deposits, so the real amount of BCH in circulation is far smaller than 21 million, it's actually equal to amount of BTC held by users on exchanges that listed BCH now. This number is probably some dozens of thousands BCH, at it creates a perfect opportunity for speculation and manipulation.

you have obviously no idea how market cap works, the number of BCH in circulation is irrelevant (and vice versa), as long as the price is high the market cap will be high as well

deisik

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 06, 2017, 07:17:42 AM

Quote from: deisik on August 06, 2017, 01:19:08 AM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 05, 2017, 05:09:21 PM

Another common misconception in crypto community is measuring value of altcoins in USD. You can often find statements like "this ICO raised $20,000,000" or "that altcoin increased in [USD] price by 20%".
People ignore the fact that altcoins are pegged to Bitcoin, most of them can only be traded for it on exchanges, and even when there is an option to trade altcoins for fiat, most traders still chose the BTC pair

I'd rather say that your claim is the real misconception

Litecoin had been making local highs in BTC which is the opposite to your claim that "when Bitcoin is falling, altcoins usually don't change their BTC price, or even fall". Obviously, this is no longer the case. Major altcoins are pretty solid now and in no way are dependent on Bitcoin.

One anecdote doesn't prove anything (in that case LTC got pumped because it had SegWit, while Bitcoin miners were signalling), there is a strong correlation between BTC and altcoin prices

Are you in your right mind?

Litecoin is decoupled from Bitcoin prices for a few months already (actually since April). It is now more often than not goes against Bitcoin prices. Read when Bitcoin goes up Litecoin goes down and vice versa. Indeed, it could be said that there is strong negative correlation between the prices of these two coins, but this is likely not what you meant to say. I gave you just the most recent example which has revealed this tendency in most glaring way, but it is basically the same at other times as well, though not as pronounced of course

eaLiTy

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Quote from: alani123 on August 06, 2017, 07:28:50 AM

Yes, market cap is truly irrelevant when order books are so thin and trading volumes so small compared to the cap. There's no strong resistance for some cryptocurrencies and prices are very easy to manipulate, something that's likely to trigger a market wide reaction amid such a market sentiment.

You cannot completely tell that the market cap is irrelevant because there are many coins which have potential and are good ones ,it might be true when it comes to shit coins with unlimited cap,they could just have a billion coins and could have a bigger market cap,the launch of BCH just added a few billions to the market cap and i am really interested to know how that will perform in the future.

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Quote from: craZyLovE0916 on August 05, 2017, 02:24:07 PM

Quote from: merchantofzeny on August 05, 2017, 11:56:33 AM

Quote from: Sadlife on August 04, 2017, 09:23:26 PM

The only reason Bitcoin cash is avoiding a pump dump on it's value is it's slow and unstable network once it stabilize and exchanges started accepting deposits of BCC/BCH whatever you want to call it, you'll see a big price fluctuation as users can already exchange it for bitcoin. The reason why it had a big price after the fork because users was unable to exchange it but some of them found a way to sell it that's why the price continued to decrease in passing days sooner or later it may reach it's all time low in just a week or even days.

That's what I also think about it sir. Some exchanges are still not accepting it. Some are even having problems with sell orders. Maybe they are still fixing stuff to allow them to accept bch. I think people would just dump these once it becomes easy to do though. It's basically free cash from your btc...

It will continue falling for sure. 99% of altcoins end up dying and Bitcoin Cash is no different. I give it a year and it will be dead. Split your coins and dump now or you will cry later. Grin

I don't even know if it is possible to split mine now because they were on an exchange and I forgot to move them to my own wallet so I think I am screwed...

I heard Coinbase is crediting BTC holders BCH equal to the amount of BTC they have left in their wallet before the fork. I'm not sure about Poloniex and others though. I'm actually having problems completing sell orders in Polo. They just get stuck there, sigh.

EDIT: Just checked now, still stuck. This is like the 3rd day already...

alani123

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Yes, market cap is truly irrelevant when order books are so thin and trading volumes so small compared to the cap. There's no strong resistance for some cryptocurrencies and prices are very easy to manipulate, something that's likely to trigger a market wide reaction amid such a market sentiment.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: deisik on August 06, 2017, 01:19:08 AM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 05, 2017, 05:09:21 PM

Another common misconception in crypto community is measuring value of altcoins in USD. You can often find statements like "this ICO raised $20,000,000" or "that altcoin increased in [USD] price by 20%".
People ignore the fact that altcoins are pegged to Bitcoin, most of them can only be traded for it on exchanges, and even when there is an option to trade altcoins for fiat, most traders still chose the BTC pair

I'd rather say that your claim is the real misconception

Litecoin had been making local highs in BTC which is the opposite to your claim that "when Bitcoin is falling, altcoins usually don't change their BTC price, or even fall". Obviously, this is no longer the case. Major altcoins are pretty solid now and in no way are dependent on Bitcoin.

One anecdote doesn't prove anything (in that case LTC got pumped because it had SegWit, while Bitcoin miners were signalling), there is a strong correlation between BTC and altcoin prices.

Quote from: AK47- on August 06, 2017, 06:48:26 AM

Marketcap might have little or no significance among currencies in cryptocurrency market. But we can't neglect the relevance of marketcap when we compare two different commodities like gold and Bitcoin. Marketcap are very important to know about the acceptance and popularity of various commodities and for knowing the future potential.

It's a bit better in Bitcoin's case, because it has been circulating for so long, and has very high volumes now, and is traded against USD.

Quote from: olushakes on August 06, 2017, 06:13:04 AM

Its really hard to just conclude that market capitalisation is just irrelevant because of the issue about BCH because there is a basis for everything and BCH won't be any difference considering the fact that by default the BCH is created in relation to the availabe BTC out there and with one exchange having a price, its enough to calculate the amount of capitalization without any difficulty.

Marketcap is misguiding because you can create millions of coins, sell a few coins for some hundreds of USD and claim that there is "multi-billion network", "third most valued cryptocurrency", etc. This is just a method to trick noobs into buying shitcoins.

AK47-

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Marketcap might have little or no significance among currencies in cryptocurrency market. But we can't neglect the relevance of marketcap when we compare two different commodities like gold and Bitcoin. Marketcap are very important to know about the acceptance and popularity of various commodities and for knowing the future potential.

olushakes

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Its really hard to just conclude that market capitalisation is just irrelevant because of the issue about BCH because there is a basis for everything and BCH won't be any difference considering the fact that by default the BCH is created in relation to the availabe BTC out there and with one exchange having a price, its enough to calculate the amount of capitalization without any difficulty.

Cranidos

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 02, 2017, 07:04:42 AM

10 billion dollar network emerged out of thin air. Or did it?

Marketcap is a simple multiplication of price of a single coin by total number of coins in economy. It implies that there's a free market where every participant can easily sell or buy given coin.

But is it the case with today's BCH? As of now, almost no exchange actually supports BCH deposits, so the real amount of BCH in circulation is far smaller than 21 million, it's actually equal to amount of BTC held by users on exchanges that listed BCH now. This number is probably some dozens of thousands BCH, at it creates a perfect opportunity for speculation and manipulation.

In regards to the marketcap: This should be a lesson to anyone that panics or gets bothered when the marketcap of Bitcoin decreased so much (billions of dollars) The marketcap is irrelevant to Bitcoin's status, some just use it to scare new investors in order to create panic selling, thus decrease in Bitcoin's value.

deisik

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 05, 2017, 05:09:21 PM

Another common misconception in crypto community is measuring value of altcoins in USD. You can often find statements like "this ICO raised $20,000,000" or "that altcoin increased in [USD] price by 20%".
People ignore the fact that altcoins are pegged to Bitcoin, most of them can only be traded for it on exchanges, and even when there is an option to trade altcoins for fiat, most traders still chose the BTC pair

I'd rather say that your claim is the real misconception

Major altcoins are mostly living their own lives already. And it doesn't matter whether they are priced in dollars or in bitcoins. For example, when Bitcoin plunged below 2,000 dollars per coin a few weeks ago, Litecoin had been making local highs in BTC which is the opposite to your claim that "when Bitcoin is falling, altcoins usually don't change their BTC price, or even fall". Obviously, this is no longer the case. Major altcoins are pretty solid now and in no way are dependent on Bitcoin. Your words might have made sense 3-4 years ago, but they don't mean anything substantial nowadays

hatshepsut93

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Another common misconception in crypto community is measuring value of altcoins in USD. You can often find statements like "this ICO raised $20,000,000" or "that altcoin increased in [USD] price by 20%".
People ignore the fact that altcoins are pegged to Bitcoin, most of them can only be traded for it on exchanges, and even when there is an option to trade altcoins for fiat, most traders still chose the BTC pair.

This leads to some interesting situations - when BTC price is growing, it looks like altcoins are growing too, because their USD price increase, but when you check their price in BTC, they usually fall. In the opposite scenario, when Bitcoin is falling, alts usually don't change their BTC price, or even fall. This means that value of alts is very shaky, they are highly speculative assets, and BTC dominance as % of marketcap isn't representing the real relationship of value.

Bitcoin is gold. Alts are inflationary fiat banknotes.

Kimpoiluiseta

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if without problem Bcash can competitor bitcoin, maybe can second placed in marketcap, replace ETH position
but bcash is never replace bitcoin position

tabas

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It's now number 4 on the coinmarketcap.com but it's still too big when it comes to the total market cap of this coin. However, that it is starting to become dead as before only few people are able to make the trades and the supply is that limited to the market. But now everyone is starting to dump this alt coin.

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Quote from: craZyLovE0916 on August 05, 2017, 02:24:07 PM

Quote from: merchantofzeny on August 05, 2017, 11:56:33 AM

Quote from: Sadlife on August 04, 2017, 09:23:26 PM

The only reason Bitcoin cash is avoiding a pump dump on it's value is it's slow and unstable network once it stabilize and exchanges started accepting deposits of BCC/BCH whatever you want to call it, you'll see a big price fluctuation as users can already exchange it for bitcoin. The reason why it had a big price after the fork because users was unable to exchange it but some of them found a way to sell it that's why the price continued to decrease in passing days sooner or later it may reach it's all time low in just a week or even days.

That's what I also think about it sir. Some exchanges are still not accepting it. Some are even having problems with sell orders. Maybe they are still fixing stuff to allow them to accept bch. I think people would just dump these once it becomes easy to do though. It's basically free cash from your btc...

It will continue falling for sure. 99% of altcoins end up dying and Bitcoin Cash is no different. I give it a year and it will be dead. Split your coins and dump now or you will cry later. Grin

I don't even know if it is possible to split mine now because they were on an exchange and I forgot to move them to my own wallet so I think I am screwed...

The only thing you can do now is pray that your exchange will either implement BCC trading or be honest and at least allow you to withdraw your coins.
If they don't do any of these things it means your BCC got stolen by the exchange. It's free money and they won't simply let it go to waste. They will either give it to their rightful owners or sell it themselves.

craZyLovE0916

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Quote from: merchantofzeny on August 05, 2017, 11:56:33 AM

Quote from: Sadlife on August 04, 2017, 09:23:26 PM

The only reason Bitcoin cash is avoiding a pump dump on it's value is it's slow and unstable network once it stabilize and exchanges started accepting deposits of BCC/BCH whatever you want to call it, you'll see a big price fluctuation as users can already exchange it for bitcoin. The reason why it had a big price after the fork because users was unable to exchange it but some of them found a way to sell it that's why the price continued to decrease in passing days sooner or later it may reach it's all time low in just a week or even days.

That's what I also think about it sir. Some exchanges are still not accepting it. Some are even having problems with sell orders. Maybe they are still fixing stuff to allow them to accept bch. I think people would just dump these once it becomes easy to do though. It's basically free cash from your btc...

It will continue falling for sure. 99% of altcoins end up dying and Bitcoin Cash is no different. I give it a year and it will be dead. Split your coins and dump now or you will cry later. Grin

I don't even know if it is possible to split mine now because they were on an exchange and I forgot to move them to my own wallet so I think I am screwed...

A Feeder

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Quote from: merchantofzeny on August 05, 2017, 11:56:33 AM

Quote from: Sadlife on August 04, 2017, 09:23:26 PM

The only reason Bitcoin cash is avoiding a pump dump on it's value is it's slow and unstable network once it stabilize and exchanges started accepting deposits of BCC/BCH whatever you want to call it, you'll see a big price fluctuation as users can already exchange it for bitcoin. The reason why it had a big price after the fork because users was unable to exchange it but some of them found a way to sell it that's why the price continued to decrease in passing days sooner or later it may reach it's all time low in just a week or even days.

That's what I also think about it sir. Some exchanges are still not accepting it. Some are even having problems with sell orders. Maybe they are still fixing stuff to allow them to accept bch. I think people would just dump these once it becomes easy to do though. It's basically free cash from your btc...

With the way on how people reacts on BCC, for me, this would be a great chance for bitcoin holders not only that they'd received free of those and can easily sell( which is most that received it do) which will affect bitcoin in such a way that there would be more cash for them to buy more bitcoin to hold.
For me the reason why it's not on most exchanges is because it's newly created and just like any other coins it takes time before it reaches exchanges and when it do then the price will surely dump for BCC.

merchantofzeny

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Quote from: Sadlife on August 04, 2017, 09:23:26 PM

The only reason Bitcoin cash is avoiding a pump dump on it's value is it's slow and unstable network once it stabilize and exchanges started accepting deposits of BCC/BCH whatever you want to call it, you'll see a big price fluctuation as users can already exchange it for bitcoin. The reason why it had a big price after the fork because users was unable to exchange it but some of them found a way to sell it that's why the price continued to decrease in passing days sooner or later it may reach it's all time low in just a week or even days.

That's what I also think about it sir. Some exchanges are still not accepting it. Some are even having problems with sell orders. Maybe they are still fixing stuff to allow them to accept bch. I think people would just dump these once it becomes easy to do though. It's basically free cash from your btc...

deisik

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Quote from: exstasie on August 05, 2017, 02:18:24 AM

Quote from: Theb on August 05, 2017, 01:44:11 AM

But as of right now it has fallen from 626$ to 225$ per Bitcoin Cash. And with the price of Bitcoin crossing the 3100$ per Bitcoin it has prove to us that users have use the opportunity to sell Bitcoin Cash in order to buy Bitcoin in return.

One thing to ponder here: yes, price has fallen, so there is more supply of Bitcoin Cash than demand at the moment. But considering the volume we've seen on exchanges like Bitfinex, and that the price is still holding in the $200s, there is clearly a significant level of demand. Given that the vast majority of bitcoin has always remained off exchanges, I imagine Bcash will remain similarly illiquid (after the initial rush to dump)

I think there is no future for this Bitcoin China Coin

Neither bright nor gloomy, just no future at all (read it will be as dead as a doornail before November rain). Regarding the part I emphasized, it is obvious that this demand is coming from someone who has fiat at their disposal simply because all major cryptocurrencies have either been rising (like Bitcoin) or staying at essentially the same level (like Litecoin). In this way, the only source of demand for Bitcoin Cash is coming exclusively from fiat. This basically tells us that the demand is in fact more speculative than the whole cryptomarket as such, i.e. people are not selling their coins to buy the wannabe Bitcoin, it is someone else who is injecting fiat into this shit coin. It means there is no real interest in the coin from the ordinary traders, and therefore it is set to die rather sooner than later

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Quote from: exstasie on August 05, 2017, 02:18:24 AM

This is the hardest time for Bcash; blocks still aren't profitable to mine, and miners are somewhat defecting back to the main Bitcoin chain. If it can sustain for a few weeks, especially at these prices, I think it has a bright future as an altcoin. For now, it's up in the air.

Yeah, in hindsight the fork should have happened close to a difficulty adjustment period. Now blocks are tough to find, and it might take a long time before enough blocks are mined and the difficulty is reset. It seems to be caught in a downward spiral.

exstasie

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Quote from: Theb on August 05, 2017, 01:44:11 AM

But as of right now it has fallen from 626$ to 225$ per Bitcoin Cash. And with the price of Bitcoin crossing the 3100$ per Bitcoin it has prove to us that users have use the opportunity to sell Bitcoin Cash in order to buy Bitcoin in return.

One thing to ponder here: yes, price has fallen, so there is more supply of Bitcoin Cash than demand at the moment. But considering the volume we've seen on exchanges like Bitfinex, and that the price is still holding in the $200s, there is clearly a significant level of demand. Given that the vast majority of bitcoin has always remained off exchanges, I imagine Bcash will remain similarly illiquid (after the initial rush to dump).

This is the hardest time for Bcash; blocks still aren't profitable to mine, and miners are somewhat defecting back to the main Bitcoin chain. If it can sustain for a few weeks, especially at these prices, I think it has a bright future as an altcoin. For now, it's up in the air.

Theb

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But as of right now it has fallen from 626$ to 225$ per Bitcoin Cash. And with the price of Bitcoin crossing the 3100$ per Bitcoin it has prove to us that users have use the opportunity to sell Bitcoin Cash in order to buy Bitcoin in return. Well we all support the original Bitcoin anyway and it is a win-win for us especially those who took advantage of their Bitcoin Cash. I hope that Bitcoin will stay above 3000$ by the end of August to establish a nice support in the chart.

btcney

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 02, 2017, 07:04:42 AM

10 billion dollar network emerged out of thin air. Or did it?

Marketcap is a simple multiplication of price of a single coin by total number of coins in economy. It implies that there's a free market where every participant can easily sell or buy given coin.

But is it the case with today's BCH? As of now, almost no exchange actually supports BCH deposits, so the real amount of BCH in circulation is far smaller than 21 million, it's actually equal to amount of BTC held by users on exchanges that listed BCH now. This number is probably some dozens of thousands BCH, at it creates a perfect opportunity for speculation and manipulation.

Indeed. Market cap is probably not a very good indicator of how healthy a coin is economically at all. Bitcoin vs gold market cap wise isn't even close, but in my opinion bitcoin is much more liquid as it is able to be traded by anyone, anywhere, without volume or quantity restrictions or any sort of fees added on to the trading activity.

Bitcoin cash is probably one of the best examples of why market capitalization is not a good sign of liquidity or healthiness of the coin, because it had really long block times due to high difficulty for miners. That meant that people weren't able to dump their coin when they wanted to. THis plus the fact that many exchanges didn't have deposits open for BCC meant an artifcially inflated price level.

If someone just dumped $1 million worth of BCC i would expect price to drop by $50...

GreenBits

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 02, 2017, 07:04:42 AM

10 billion dollar network emerged out of thin air. Or did it?

Marketcap is a simple multiplication of price of a single coin by total number of coins in economy. It implies that there's a free market where every participant can easily sell or buy given coin.

But is it the case with today's BCH? As of now, almost no exchange actually supports BCH deposits, so the real amount of BCH in circulation is far smaller than 21 million, it's actually equal to amount of BTC held by users on exchanges that listed BCH now. This number is probably some dozens of thousands BCH, at it creates a perfect opportunity for speculation and manipulation.

oh, you are correct. yes, a 10b network did appear overnight. and for about 48 hours, it was legit.

and this is the problem with bitcoin.

we dont really have any real basis to price this shit off of. the price is borne on pure speculation; bitcoin prices does not reflect utility or production costs. coupled with the fact that most folks are play traders with no formal education, you get a dutch tulip of a situation Cheesy

And as I have said earlier, this is a perfect storm. The market has been in disarray since before the fork, and everyone got these coins. given the uncertainty of bcc, even at this point, there was no possible bull market with all that selling pressure. the situation we saw on exchanges is similar to what we see on hitbtc when they trade an iou token; the lack of liquidity causes pricing anomalies that correct as soon as the liquidity crunch is solved.

apparently, we are quite liquid at this point Wink

positively drowning if you ask me.

Baofeng

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 02, 2017, 07:04:42 AM

10 billion dollar network emerged out of thin air. Or did it?

Marketcap is a simple multiplication of price of a single coin by total number of coins in economy. It implies that there's a free market where every participant can easily sell or buy given coin.

But is it the case with today's BCH? As of now, almost no exchange actually supports BCH deposits, so the real amount of BCH in circulation is far smaller than 21 million, it's actually equal to amount of BTC held by users on exchanges that listed BCH now. This number is probably some dozens of thousands BCH, at it creates a perfect opportunity for speculation and manipulation.

Correct, marketcap has no significant value so it doesn't count as factors how strong a coin is. I initially thought that this coins will be manipulated by far by very rich individual and big entities behind it. I have suspected this will be done to keep the hype around it so that people will become interested and get it then suddenly they will just dump it.

degaga15

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 02, 2017, 07:04:42 AM

10 billion dollar network emerged out of thin air. Or did it?

Marketcap is a simple multiplication of price of a single coin by total number of coins in economy. It implies that there's a free market where every participant can easily sell or buy given coin.

But is it the case with today's BCH? As of now, almost no exchange actually supports BCH deposits, so the real amount of BCH in circulation is far smaller than 21 million, it's actually equal to amount of BTC held by users on exchanges that listed BCH now. This number is probably some dozens of thousands BCH, at it creates a perfect opportunity for speculation and manipulation.

I think for now BCH is not worth the BTC value because of the new coin, and in my opinion BCH was created to stabilize the BTC value which is still not significant.

Sadlife

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The only reason Bitcoin cash is avoiding a pump dump on it's value is it's slow and unstable network once it stabilize and exchanges started accepting deposits of BCC/BCH whatever you want to call it, you'll see a big price fluctuation as users can already exchange it for bitcoin. The reason why it had a big price after the fork because users was unable to exchange it but some of them found a way to sell it that's why the price continued to decrease in passing days sooner or later it may reach it's all time low in just a week or even days.

ShadowBits

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 02, 2017, 07:04:42 AM

10 billion dollar network emerged out of thin air. Or did it?

Marketcap is a simple multiplication of price of a single coin by total number of coins in economy. It implies that there's a free market where every participant can easily sell or buy given coin.

But is it the case with today's BCH? As of now, almost no exchange actually supports BCH deposits, so the real amount of BCH in circulation is far smaller than 21 million, it's actually equal to amount of BTC held by users on exchanges that listed BCH now. This number is probably some dozens of thousands BCH, at it creates a perfect opportunity for speculation and manipulation.

honestly BCH is hard to predict and kinda challenging. its stresses me but in a happy way to read its movement ,i can really practice my trading skills
now bch rapidly flactuate i predict its going down to .07 but im also putting some buy orders on .05
i noticed that the chart go downtrend as people transfer their bch as if it is controlled and avoiding pump and dump...
thats is why many traders bashed this coin but i have a good feeling that it will moon with in this year.

hatshepsut93

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10 billion dollar network emerged out of thin air. Or did it?

Marketcap is a simple multiplication of price of a single coin by total number of coins in economy. It implies that there's a free market where every participant can easily sell or buy given coin.

But is it the case with today's BCH? As of now, almost no exchange actually supports BCH deposits, so the real amount of BCH in circulation is far smaller than 21 million, it's actually equal to amount of BTC held by users on exchanges that listed BCH now. This number is probably some dozens of thousands BCH, at it creates a perfect opportunity for speculation and manipulation.

Topic: BCH launch shows us how irrelevant marketcap can be (Read 941 times)