I already solved my situation and decided to close this topic.
There are plenty of good options when it comes to the degree of privacy I need, and this topic has gone personal about someone else's problems.
Topic: best coinjoin wallets (Read 366 times)
Everyone reading this post should be aware that o_e_l_e_o has KNOWINGLY been spreading this lie that "address reuse" is a "flaw" in Wasabi coinjoins even AFTER being directly exposed by Peter Todd: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5286821
I am more concerned about your intentions of luring bitmover s Sinbad Campaign UTXOs into Wasabi after you repeatedly stated Sinbad and Mixers are scams than I am about o_e_l_e_o 'deliberately trying to do' what ever to redirect us from Wasabi to another Privacy tool that works better anyway, considering Wasabi is now pro Censorship.You work for Wasabi, a tool pro Censorship, and are trying to lure some body who you believe is a 'scammer' into the tool you work for that blacklists Transactions some other Third Party does not like.
This is truly suspect and concerning to me.
Objectively speaking, if zkSNACKS' coordinator did not hire the services of a blockchain analysis company, would Wasabi be in that list?
No, for the following reasons:Wasabi has been reusing addresses, a lot, which has resulted in a lot of post-mix coins being linked back to pre-mix coins and being de-anonymized. And then the devs have been on Twitter, both defending that it is "acceptable" and also lying about it entirely.
Here's an example thread: https://nitter.it/HillebrandMax/status/1586249382097088512#m
Gets shown address reuse, claims it isn't from 2.0 and that it has never happened in 2.0. Then gets shown address reuse from 2.0, and says they've already patched it. How could they have patched it while also claiming it has never happened? They are lying somewhere.
Here's another example: https://nitter.it/ErgoBTC/status/1585671294783311872#m
And dozens more: https://nitter.it/wasabistats
But the devs don't care, because apparently some address reuse is "acceptable": https://nitter.it/HillebrandMax/status/1586321068129939456#m
Here's an example thread: https://nitter.it/HillebrandMax/status/1586249382097088512#m
Gets shown address reuse, claims it isn't from 2.0 and that it has never happened in 2.0. Then gets shown address reuse from 2.0, and says they've already patched it. How could they have patched it while also claiming it has never happened? They are lying somewhere.
Here's another example: https://nitter.it/ErgoBTC/status/1585671294783311872#m
And dozens more: https://nitter.it/wasabistats
But the devs don't care, because apparently some address reuse is "acceptable": https://nitter.it/HillebrandMax/status/1586321068129939456#m
Wasabi coinjoins creating outputs which can be 100% linked to a specific input: https://mempool.space/tx/dae13b2d015587a3033d7ab7949a7efa6d6ed7aa782168b0651ab37a2d8390f8
Wasabi coinjoins reusing addresses, leading to users being doxxed: https://nitter.it/ErgoBTC/status/1585671294783311872
Wasabi coinjoins using the same address on both sides of a transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/af50a27691c0f0b7b626cddb74445a0e26bb6ed7b045861067326ea173bc17d0 (address bc1qft2uze947wtdvvhdqtx00c8el954y6ekxjk73h)
Wasabi coinjoins reusing addresses, leading to users being doxxed: https://nitter.it/ErgoBTC/status/1585671294783311872
Wasabi coinjoins using the same address on both sides of a transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/af50a27691c0f0b7b626cddb74445a0e26bb6ed7b045861067326ea173bc17d0 (address bc1qft2uze947wtdvvhdqtx00c8el954y6ekxjk73h)
"Someone reused a Bitcoin address" is not a reason why coinjoins are bad. You were already called out by Peter Todd and proven to be a liar:
https://youtu.be/oPNFdhZUGmk?t=162
Everyone reading this post should be aware that o_e_l_e_o has KNOWINGLY been spreading this lie that "address reuse" is a "flaw" in Wasabi coinjoins even AFTER being directly exposed by Peter Todd: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5286821
So the question is no longer "is o_e_l_e_o correct that Wasabi's coinjoins are flawed?" since we verified the answer is "no", the question we are now asking ourselves is "why is o_e_l_e_o deliberately trying to spread a lie about Wasabi's coinjoins being flawed over and over despite having his lies directly exposed already?"
According to my knowledge, the best alternatives for mixers in terms of privacy are Wasabi wallet and Samourai wallet. Now, when it comes to ease of use, I recommend Whirlpool.
Now, keep in mind that coinjoin is a great alternative to mixers because it provides transparency and control. Nonetheless, you should select the solution that best suits your technical skills, privacy requirements, and overall comfort level.
Now, keep in mind that coinjoin is a great alternative to mixers because it provides transparency and control. Nonetheless, you should select the solution that best suits your technical skills, privacy requirements, and overall comfort level.
Objectively speaking, if zkSNACKS' coordinator did not hire the services of a blockchain analysis company, would Wasabi be in that list?
No, for the following reasons:Wasabi has been reusing addresses, a lot, which has resulted in a lot of post-mix coins being linked back to pre-mix coins and being de-anonymized. And then the devs have been on Twitter, both defending that it is "acceptable" and also lying about it entirely.
Here's an example thread: https://nitter.it/HillebrandMax/status/1586249382097088512#m
Gets shown address reuse, claims it isn't from 2.0 and that it has never happened in 2.0. Then gets shown address reuse from 2.0, and says they've already patched it. How could they have patched it while also claiming it has never happened? They are lying somewhere.
Here's another example: https://nitter.it/ErgoBTC/status/1585671294783311872#m
And dozens more: https://nitter.it/wasabistats
But the devs don't care, because apparently some address reuse is "acceptable": https://nitter.it/HillebrandMax/status/1586321068129939456#m
Here's an example thread: https://nitter.it/HillebrandMax/status/1586249382097088512#m
Gets shown address reuse, claims it isn't from 2.0 and that it has never happened in 2.0. Then gets shown address reuse from 2.0, and says they've already patched it. How could they have patched it while also claiming it has never happened? They are lying somewhere.
Here's another example: https://nitter.it/ErgoBTC/status/1585671294783311872#m
And dozens more: https://nitter.it/wasabistats
But the devs don't care, because apparently some address reuse is "acceptable": https://nitter.it/HillebrandMax/status/1586321068129939456#m
Wasabi coinjoins creating outputs which can be 100% linked to a specific input: https://mempool.space/tx/dae13b2d015587a3033d7ab7949a7efa6d6ed7aa782168b0651ab37a2d8390f8
Wasabi coinjoins reusing addresses, leading to users being doxxed: https://nitter.it/ErgoBTC/status/1585671294783311872
Wasabi coinjoins using the same address on both sides of a transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/af50a27691c0f0b7b626cddb74445a0e26bb6ed7b045861067326ea173bc17d0 (address bc1qft2uze947wtdvvhdqtx00c8el954y6ekxjk73h)
Wasabi coinjoins reusing addresses, leading to users being doxxed: https://nitter.it/ErgoBTC/status/1585671294783311872
Wasabi coinjoins using the same address on both sides of a transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/af50a27691c0f0b7b626cddb74445a0e26bb6ed7b045861067326ea173bc17d0 (address bc1qft2uze947wtdvvhdqtx00c8el954y6ekxjk73h)
Because it would be unfair not to include Wasabi if they're app is technically doing what it's supposed to - and doing it well - to increase user-privacy and help preserve fungibility.
Why would it be unfair? Even ignoring the evidence above showing Wasabi is flawed, why would it be unfair to exclude a so-called "privacy" wallet which actively funds the enemies of privacy? 
Quote
Whirlpool in Sparrow and Samourai. Also Jointmarket if you run your own node.
Samourai, but not Wasabi?
I merely want to know, and please make an honest post. Objectively speaking, if zkSNACKS' coordinator did not hire the services of a blockchain analysis company, would Wasabi be in that list?
Because it would be unfair not to include Wasabi if they're app is technically doing what it's supposed to - and doing it well - to increase user-privacy and help preserve fungibility.
This discussion is just too much polemic and I will confess I have no time to read the whole discussion to take a side. For now, I will trust the other forum members.
I will make it as simple as I can for you.Kruw is a Wasabi contributor and will do and say any thing possible to convince you that Wasabi is the ONLY solution to Privacy for Bitcoin users. Kruw is only suggesting you to use Wasabi or other Wasabi implementations because you asked for the BEST Coin Join Wallet and there is no way he would say otherwise. Had you said any thing skeptical about Wasabi, the first thing Kruw would of said was that you are a criminal using Bitcoin from Sinbad Campaign.
Long story short. You either believe Kruw and start using the Wasabi Wallet. But keep in mind that Wasabi is supporting and actively working with Blockchain Analysis. So you can start using Wasabi but remember. Kruw would say you are a criminal for owning Bitcoin from the Sinbad Campaign. I have been accused for being a criminal by him for participating in a Mixer Campaign. So your Address(es) may be blacklisted by his Blockchain Analysis partner already. In fact I am very confused as to why he is recommending you to use Wasabi considering he would consider your UTXOs criminal money. Per his own statements, you should be censored from Wasabi Coin Joins already.
Or you can use common sense and become skeptical of all the accusations and spit Kruw throws at every single skeptic and Privacy solution that is not Wasabi. And then you realize there is no reason you should not use Sparrow, Join Market, Atomic Swaps or any other Privacy tools.
Privacy you gain from ANY of the tools will not be PERFECT ever anyway. My favorite is combining Privacy tools to produce a final UTXO that is much less likely to be debunked. You never know how long it takes before you hear there is a flaw they found in the one method you have always been using.
I just saw this topic.
Personally I use exactly what Charles-Tim suggested above:
1. Whirlpool coinjoins, from Sparrow which has this feature enabled (if you want) for hot wallets. For details check Nathan's video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIHoNaQdzP0&ab_channel=theBTCcourse
2. Jam, which is actually a UI for JoinMarket. Very easy to use. For details check Ben's video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbyjG2upGO8&ab_channel=BTCSessions
You could and you should, in my opinion! As I said in another thread, I would mix my UTXOs from this campaign (I wasn't part of it, but hypothetically) and send them to a wallet specifically created for this purpose. I wouldn't wanna mix these inputs with other inputs I have.
I know you specifically mention CoinJoins, but if you wanna go a little further (I think you do, since you mentioned exchanges) you can read here: https://kycnot.me/search?type=exchange and find more tools to ensure your privacy. One tool I use a lot is UnstoppableSwap which allows me to basically swap between Bitcoin and Monero in a fully self-custodial way. Technically you could get rid of these UTXOs you own switching to monero and then follow the same steps in reverse to get fresh Bitcoin back.
P.S in case you choose Whirlpool coinjoins, make sure to remember that it creates change UTXOs in an account that it calls "Badbank". Treat these UTXOs carefully.
Personally I use exactly what Charles-Tim suggested above:
1. Whirlpool coinjoins, from Sparrow which has this feature enabled (if you want) for hot wallets. For details check Nathan's video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIHoNaQdzP0&ab_channel=theBTCcourse
2. Jam, which is actually a UI for JoinMarket. Very easy to use. For details check Ben's video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbyjG2upGO8&ab_channel=BTCSessions
Technically, I could send coins from sinbad campaign , right? Even if in the past those coins came from their address.
You could and you should, in my opinion! As I said in another thread, I would mix my UTXOs from this campaign (I wasn't part of it, but hypothetically) and send them to a wallet specifically created for this purpose. I wouldn't wanna mix these inputs with other inputs I have.
I know you specifically mention CoinJoins, but if you wanna go a little further (I think you do, since you mentioned exchanges) you can read here: https://kycnot.me/search?type=exchange and find more tools to ensure your privacy. One tool I use a lot is UnstoppableSwap which allows me to basically swap between Bitcoin and Monero in a fully self-custodial way. Technically you could get rid of these UTXOs you own switching to monero and then follow the same steps in reverse to get fresh Bitcoin back.
P.S in case you choose Whirlpool coinjoins, make sure to remember that it creates change UTXOs in an account that it calls "Badbank". Treat these UTXOs carefully.
Technically, I could send coins from sinbad campaign , right? Even if in the past those coins came from their address.
Yes, absolutely. Neither Whirlpool nor JoinMarket participant in any blacklisting, censorship, or coordination with blockchain analysis.What are the best coin join wallets?
Great thinking, I was about to start a similar topic. You should have been asking though also about their pluses and minuses.
Whirlpool in Sparrow and Samourai. Also Jointmarket if you run your own node.
Well, I just got plenty alternatives, thanks everyone.
I will just add that Swap services also work great for this. The only downside is that you end up with some altcoin, which you need to swap again to BTC (other coins) or just sell for fiat.
This discussion is just too much polemic and I will confess I have no time to read the whole discussion to take a side. For now, I will trust the other forum members.
Samourai case is not new.
Also completely debunked:Debunked how? You admitted that Whirlpool coinjoins create unmixed change:
The post doesn't even demonstrate that. It only demonstrates unmixed change being consolidated with other unmixed change.
WabiSabi coinjoins do not have this flaw of "unmixed change" that links your transactions together. Your ENTIRE balance is made private with WabiSabi, so no two transactions you send/receive can ever be traced to each other.
Whirlpool work great.
Woah. I've missed that and I was under the wrong impression for... quite some time.
Thank you for clarifying.
Samourai case is not new.
Also completely debunked:I would suggest not engaging with Kruw and allowing him to derail yet another thread with his repeatedly debunked copy-and-paste nonsense. I've debunked the same post he has copy and pasted above multiple times over the last several months:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5286821
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.62800032
The fact that he continues to post it when it is blatantly false, means either he doesn't understand anything about coinjoins or he knows what he is posting is a complete lie. Either way, he is not interested in discussion and only in pushing his agenda.
I've had him on ignore for months; I suggest everyone else does the same:
Anyone who wants to see the truth about Wasabi coinjoins being demixed, Wasabi doxxing their competitors, and Wasabi funding mass surveillance, can simply read the Wasabi thread. Any time he copies and pastes the same old nonsense again, just reply with a link to this post.
Back on topic here: It is entirely fair to warn people that zkSNACKs are directly funding the enemy.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5286821
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.62800032
The fact that he continues to post it when it is blatantly false, means either he doesn't understand anything about coinjoins or he knows what he is posting is a complete lie. Either way, he is not interested in discussion and only in pushing his agenda.
I've had him on ignore for months; I suggest everyone else does the same:
It's been clear for some time now that Kruw is either incapable or unwilling to address the vast myriad of valid points made against Wasabi in this thread, and instead can only result to copious amounts of hand-waving and whataboutism. Furthermore, it's also clear that Kruw either does not understand how Whirlpool and JoinMarket work, or he does understand but deliberate lies about them to spread his narrative.
Either way, although I'll continue to point out to other users in this thread all the reasons they should avoid Wasabi, there is no point continuing to argue with Kruw.
Either way, although I'll continue to point out to other users in this thread all the reasons they should avoid Wasabi, there is no point continuing to argue with Kruw.
Anyone who wants to see the truth about Wasabi coinjoins being demixed, Wasabi doxxing their competitors, and Wasabi funding mass surveillance, can simply read the Wasabi thread. Any time he copies and pastes the same old nonsense again, just reply with a link to this post.
Back on topic here: It is entirely fair to warn people that zkSNACKs are directly funding the enemy.
Whirlpool works great. Yes you can be deanonymized if you do something stupid like linking unmixed coins to coinjoined coins, but that is the case with literally every coinjoin implementation or any other privacy technique.
So yeah, to answer OP's question, I would suggest either Samourai or Sparrow via your own node.
What are the best coin join wallets?
Great thinking, I was about to start a similar topic. You should have been asking though also about their pluses and minuses.
Wasabi Wallet, Trezor, and BTCPay Server offer coinjoins that give you complete privacy on your entire balance.
Make sure to avoid Samourai/Sparrow's Whirlpool if you don't want your coins to be trackable
Make sure to avoid Samourai/Sparrow's Whirlpool if you don't want your coins to be trackable
Samourai case is not new. And I've also read that Wasabi's Coinjoin coordinator can check the inputs and may block certain transactions. (I don't know if Sinbad funds are on their list though, I don't know how paranoid one must become.)
All in all, the quest for Coinjoin needs some homework to avoid the cases it brings nothing useful.
Edit: It seems I don't know the whole story, hence I'm wrong. Please read below.
Technically, I could send coins from sinbad campaign , right? Even if in the past those coins came from their address.
Yes, absolutely. Neither Whirlpool nor JoinMarket participate in any blacklisting, censorship, or coordination with blockchain analysis. What are the best coin join wallets?
I will try to avoid mixers in the future and I want to know which are the safe alternatives
Thanks.
I will try to avoid mixers in the future and I want to know which are the safe alternatives
Thanks.
Wasabi Wallet, Trezor, and BTCPay Server offer coinjoins that give you complete privacy on your entire balance.
Make sure to avoid Samourai/Sparrow's Whirlpool if you don't want your coins to be trackable:
Post the tx ID of any Whirlpool transaction and I will show you the tx0 transaction that was created by each of the new entrants.
Ok, here's one: https://mempool.space/tx/ed3131b544fbf00a71709942e483b55e629312ecb181e6e819409f419ee0d226Where exactly is the privacy loss for new entrants, splitting a single UTXO in to multiple UTXOs to join the pool?
Okay, here's all the payments that can be tracked from the two new participants of the Whirlpool coinjoin transaction:
Entrant 1: bc1q03c0443ausjjdxl2h6ud5m8c0dux0zyg3dqdj7 created 0.00170417 BTC in unmixed change sent to bc1q3fduld0l3r8nclyt5p3r7ak675tekurstn55tl. Since this UTXO is not private, the sats were marked as unspendable and have not been recovered by the wallet owner
Entrant 2: bc1qzc8zku26ej337huw5dlt390cy2r9kgnq7dhtys created 0.00191247 BTC in unmixed change sent to bc1qjlltxr443uy236wl4xhpxlr6dgsu0zltlv3m44. This UTXO was used in a second tx0 transaction, creating a huge trail of transactions that could be traced to each other
The 2nd tx0 transaction created 0.00076348 BTC unmixed change which was sent to bc1qehd7gy8rza9mnzm9wnfjhgw82rp47wmqt7vpgy
Since this unmixed change is below the .001 pool minimum, it was consolidated in a 3rd tx0 with 3 other addresses owned by the same wallet:
31x8GPqrhzdaxiBJa9N5UisuoxbX1rAnHa
16Gw5WKjbxZmg1zhZQs19Sf61fbV2xGujx
3LZtsJfUjiV5EZkkG1fwGEpTe2QEa7CNeY
The 3rd tx0 transaction created .00200317 in unmixed change which was sent to bc1q2p7gdtyahct8rdjs2khwf0sffl64qe896ya2y5
This was spent in a 0.00190000 payment to 3B8cRYc3W5jHeS3pkepwDePUmePBoEwyp1 (a reused address)
That payment left .00008553 in change that was tracked to 3Dh7R7xoKMVfLCcAtVDyhJ66se82twyZSn and consolidated with two other inputs in a 4th tx0 transaction:
bc1qeuh6sds8exm54yscrupdk03jxphw8qwzdtxgde
3ByChGBFshzGUE5oip8YYVEZDaCP2bcBmZ
This 4th tx0 created .00533406 in unmixed change which was sent to bc1qzh699s75smwukg9jcanwnlkmkn38r79ataagd9 which was consolidated with 3 more addresses into a 5th tx0:
3F2qiWQJKQjF7XFjEo8FUYP3AU5AC6RqX8
3HAYYVKUpYbr2ARMdZJr9yVu8xi8UcxtPz
3GQtwwRK31wwCc22q6WS5sCgixUHsG5KaT
The 5th tx0 created 0.00058494 BTC in unmixed change that was sent to bc1qvh2zjcwwkj9y70xulla2semvlav3lty0p3l3w3
This was spent in a .00047290 payment to bc1qvzg8jq6wqtr5navn4e3ps4qrkk9r6n4h98gjck
That payment left .00008411 in change that was tracked to bc1qg6j0f0wfhpktt2l8uzdn48ct3um2xyur40eyzd and consolidated with another input into a 6th tx0 transaction:
31iZLXWfoywhuMZTPGxTkpzphzh2NXshpP
The 6th tx0 created .00753775 in unmixed change that was tracked to bc1qgfll2apc27yct6h2c8r8wq4kqhxjsfrudhhn5q
This was spent in a .00737000 payment to bc1q5emzer2t0sq5dez0zsrqgh6scvwn0n24xsladp (a reused address)
This payment left 0.00010896 BTC in change which has not been spent yet, but the payment only took place 11 days ago, so I assume it will eventually be spent, allowing the Whirlpool user to be tracked even further.
Whirlpool in Sparrow and Samourai. Also Jointmarket if you run your own node.
Technically, I could send coins from sinbad campaign , right? Even if in the past those coins came from their address.
Whirlpool in Sparrow and Samourai. Also Jointmarket if you run your own node.
What are the best coin join wallets?
I want to know which are the safe alternatives to mixers
Thanks.
I want to know which are the safe alternatives to mixers
Thanks.
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