Best EU country for a bitcoin startup?

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Quote from: 5000Bitcoins on September 18, 2014, 05:48:01 PM

Probablyy Cyprus looking at laws but not sure how you will be perceived there by the community since the last fiasco.

yes, before the fiasco, a University in Cyprus was the first in the world among the educational institutes, if I'm right, that started to accept bitcoins as a payment mean. And people thought that perhaps this asset maybe a good investment alternative also due to the real estate bubble. But then happened that fiasco.

5000Bitcoins

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Probablyy Cyprus looking at laws but not sure how you will be perceived there by the community since the last fiasco.

arnuschky

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Quote from: dKingston on September 14, 2014, 02:23:01 PM

You could have a not UK bank. In my opinion, UK is very bitcoin friendly.

Good, because we decided on the UK in the end. Cool

dKingston

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LAUNDER BITCOIN: https://BitLaunder.com

In my opinion UK is very bitcoin friendly, you could have an UK bank!

Onestopbrokers Directory

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Quote from: bitcats on August 21, 2014, 01:56:45 AM

Quote from: Onestopbrokers Directory on August 20, 2014, 08:23:18 AM

Quote from: bitcats on August 20, 2014, 06:23:34 AM

Quote from: Onestopbrokers Directory on August 20, 2014, 06:11:37 AM

I can suggest Cyprus.

But the living standard is rather low compared to Austria, Germany, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Denmark.

Yes, I can agree with you in part. But on the other hand, in Cyprus exist a big community of Russian people and a lot of other foreigners that those people may be a target market. Please have a look on this report http://www.onestopbrokers.com/2014/07/23/the-central-bank-of-the-russian-federation-published-external-trade-in-services-of-q1-2014-2/ from the Russia central bank that shows that Cyprus is the 3rd biggest exported in Services to Russia. This indicates the big community of Russian people in Cyprus.

Would you seriously like to live in a poor country within a bunch of Russian people?

:-) Cyprus is not a poor country, at least it was, until the Banks bail out happened on March 2013. But ok yes, your point is good :-)

Edward_Cryptonit

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There were quite a few references concerning UK above. Would like to elaborate a bit on that.

@thread starter: UK is indeed a home for a lot of companies operating in the Bitcoin industry. It really depends on the nature of your business. In case it's in financial services field (involving FIATs besides cryptos), then you will need to deal with a set of procedures to get your business running undisturbed. This includes, but is not limited to things like: getting FCA lincensing/no action response, HMRC MLR, ICO. This certainly requires certain amount of financial and time resources. Besides this you are obliged to follow the development of new laws and take appropriate action to stay compliant.

In case your project is solely technical/product oriented - then procedures should be way quicker and easier. As it was mentioned above UK has a great crypto community.

Regards
Edward

deepestfear

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I would go with Germany or the UK

ForgottenPassword

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Quote from: bitcats on August 20, 2014, 03:33:53 AM

Quote from: ForgottenPassword on August 16, 2014, 08:32:44 PM

For example, in Germany if you go into a store to buy a laptop and you tell the salesperson you are going to use it for hacking, they must not sell it to you. If they do they are guilty of a crime.

In fact, the German vendors dont give it a shit.

Quote

Additionally simply possessing any "hacking tools" is an offence, including port scanning software which has more legitimate uses than illegitimate.

Simply wrong!

Quote

They also apparently treat Tor exit node operators really badly over there, there have been some scary stories.

I can't agree: The Chaos Computer Club operates exit nodes in Germany and is quite reputable.

I'll just post my sources here.

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/08/new_german_hack.html
http://www.darkreading.com/vulnerabilities---threats/another-researcher-hit-with-threat-of-german-anti-hacking-law-/d/d-id/1135605?

And about the Tor exit node thing, I'm unsure of the specifics, but it seems much more Tor exit node operators in Germany get prosecuted than anywhere else in the world, here are just some stories:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2007/09/tor-node-operator-after-run-in-with-police-i-cant-do-this-any-more/
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121127/13221421157/german-court-holds-internet-user-responsible-passing-unknown-encrypted-file.shtml (not Tor related, but still relevant)
http://itnomad.wordpress.com/2006/09/10/germany-crackdown-on-tor-node-operators/

There are plenty of other stories on the Tor mailing list, thats where I read most of them. There was even one of a German man who was questioned for running a Tor middle node, though no charges stemmed from it.

bitcats

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Quote from: Onestopbrokers Directory on August 20, 2014, 08:23:18 AM

Quote from: bitcats on August 20, 2014, 06:23:34 AM

Quote from: Onestopbrokers Directory on August 20, 2014, 06:11:37 AM

I can suggest Cyprus.

But the living standard is rather low compared to Austria, Germany, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Denmark.

Yes, I can agree with you in part. But on the other hand, in Cyprus exist a big community of Russian people and a lot of other foreigners that those people may be a target market. Please have a look on this report http://www.onestopbrokers.com/2014/07/23/the-central-bank-of-the-russian-federation-published-external-trade-in-services-of-q1-2014-2/ from the Russia central bank that shows that Cyprus is the 3rd biggest exported in Services to Russia. This indicates the big community of Russian people in Cyprus.

Would you seriously like to live in a poor country within a bunch of Russian people?

Onestopbrokers Directory

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Quote from: bitcats on August 20, 2014, 06:23:34 AM

Quote from: Onestopbrokers Directory on August 20, 2014, 06:11:37 AM

I can suggest Cyprus.

But the living standard is rather low compared to Austria, Germany, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Denmark.

Yes, I can agree with you in part. But on the other hand, in Cyprus exist a big community of Russian people and a lot of other foreigners that those people may be a target market. Please have a look on this report http://www.onestopbrokers.com/2014/07/23/the-central-bank-of-the-russian-federation-published-external-trade-in-services-of-q1-2014-2/ from the Russia central bank that shows that Cyprus is the 3rd biggest exported in Services to Russia. This indicates the big community of Russian people in Cyprus.
Further, people in Cyprus has a tend to invest and Bitcoin as an investment asset can be a good investment.
Definitely, what you said is true. But also, think that is a market with no competition on crypto currencies, so, a startup has great chances to succeed. But offcourse, to succeed need many other factors.
Thanks for your reply!!!

bitcats

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Quote from: Onestopbrokers Directory on August 20, 2014, 06:11:37 AM

I can suggest Cyprus.

But the living standard is rather low compared to Austria, Germany, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Denmark.

Onestopbrokers Directory

newbie

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I can suggest Cyprus.
Perhaps, it is a small market but undiscovered from the view of Bitcoin. Ok, there was a bad incident on past http://www.onestopbrokers.com/2014/04/22/bitcoin-promoter-breaks-silence-on-cyprus-fraud-allegations/ with a company with crypto currency but people there are curious for something new, so, Cyprus can be a good country for Bitcoin startup. Further to this, in Cyprus, for the moment there is no specific regulation as far as I know. Also, a university in Cyprus was maybe the first educational organization which accepted Bitcoin as a payment asset for tutorial fees.

bitcats

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Quote from: ForgottenPassword on August 16, 2014, 08:32:44 PM

For example, in Germany if you go into a store to buy a laptop and you tell the salesperson you are going to use it for hacking, they must not sell it to you. If they do they are guilty of a crime.

In fact, the German vendors dont give it a shit.

Quote

Additionally simply possessing any "hacking tools" is an offence, including port scanning software which has more legitimate uses than illegitimate.

Simply wrong!

Quote

They also apparently treat Tor exit node operators really badly over there, there have been some scary stories.

I can't agree: The Chaos Computer Club operates exit nodes in Germany and is quite reputable.

ForgottenPassword

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Quote from: MakeBelieve on August 17, 2014, 06:25:48 AM

UK is probably one of the better choices because of no taxes.

... I'm not sure where you heard that, but you're very wrong. At the very least you are liable for capital gains taxes and others depending on the business itself. There is also council tax that I think you'd have to pay (though I'm not sure of all of the details regarding that). Taxes vary between England, Scotland, Whales and Northern Ireland too (UK != just England).

MakeBelieve

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Quote from: Parsons on August 17, 2014, 12:51:56 AM

London has quite a good Bitcoin community which is a factor that hasn't been at all considered in this thread. I'm in Shanghai so can't comment on other European communities particularly well but spent a lot of time over last year in LDN with Bitcoin enthusiasts.

London has been recommended a few times but people call it england and not london or UK as london is not the country. UK is probably one of the better choices because of no taxes.

Parsons

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London has quite a good Bitcoin community which is a factor that hasn't been at all considered in this thread. I'm in Shanghai so can't comment on other European communities particularly well but spent a lot of time over last year in LDN with Bitcoin enthusiasts.

ForgottenPassword

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Quote from: arnuschky on August 13, 2014, 08:41:40 AM

AFAIK most countries have these kinds of laws. Germany at least has one.

Most countries don't, most countries do not have the power to force someone to decrypt data if they are not suspected of commiting a crime. Germany has very harsh laws in this area, so it wouldn't surprise me if they had key disclosure laws. For example, in Germany if you go into a store to buy a laptop and you tell the salesperson you are going to use it for hacking, they must not sell it to you. If they do they are guilty of a crime. Additionally simply possessing any "hacking tools" is an offence, including port scanning software which has more legitimate uses than illegitimate. This makes pentesting illegal in Germany and many computer security firms had to leave Germany when these laws came into effect. They also apparently treat Tor exit node operators really badly over there, there have been some scary stories.

I highly doubt that German key disclosure laws are as bad as in the UK as Germany has better laws regarding self-incrimination than the UK which you could use to your advantage should you be compelled to provide encryption keys.

DurbanPoison

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Belgium.

Hamuki

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Quote from: arnuschky on August 08, 2014, 03:04:23 PM

Which is at the moment the most advantageous EU country for a bitcoin startup?
Not sure, as I haven't been following the news lately.

UK for example seems to be very good on the legal side, but banks seem to
starve out all bitcoin-related business (that is rumor, though).

Denmark.

No tax at all.

arnuschky

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Quote from: ForgottenPassword on August 11, 2014, 04:25:26 PM

The UK have something called Encryption Key Disclosure Laws.

This means LE can force you to provide passwords for anything encrypted, like sensitive documents or Bitcoin wallets. Additionally they can use it to force you to hand over your SSL private key. This also means that you could go to jail if you forgot your password.

AFAIK most countries have these kinds of laws. Germany at least has one.

dquancey

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This gets brought up quite a lot.

I'd say the UK. They have scrapped any Tax from BTC to BTC businesses, so that is a pretty damn good start.

Chax

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Keep an eye on Jersey (Island of) - not in the EU but established financial trading links and tax efficient. Their government has just enabled laws so that the worlds regulator-approved Bitcoin investment fund has opened. They aim to get $200m dollars in the first year, so they will need to do something with it Wink

.

If you are on the doorstep, share a bank manager, gym membership or lap-dancing club Roll Eyes

membership - you might be in for some extra funding as well as a healthier business environment.

adamas

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VIS ET LIBERTAS

Quote from: maurya78 on August 12, 2014, 01:38:41 AM

Switzerland/Luxembourg may be tax efficient domiciles for the holding company

+1 Luxembourg https://www.mercabitcoin.com/en/information/luxembourg-opens-the-door-to-bitcoin-business

Quote

Germany, Berlin is now a hotbed of btc innovation

You should be aware of the fact that Berlin is flat broke, per-capita debt id. Detroit.

maurya78

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Germany, Berlin is now a hotbed of btc innovation
Switzerland/Luxembourg may be tax efficient domiciles for the holding company

ForgottenPassword

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: arnuschky on August 11, 2014, 03:32:02 PM

Switzerland is a no-go, as not EU.

no you dont get it, its a good thing not being tied down to the monolithic EU

If you sell goods/services from one EU country to another there is no import VAT/duties. There are advantages to being inside the EU.

ForgottenPassword

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Quote from: arnuschky on August 11, 2014, 03:32:02 PM

Quote from: cryptofan5 on August 11, 2014, 07:41:48 AM

I think most EU countries are good for that. There are no specific laws yet that would prohibit bitcoin activity.

True, but that introduces a lot of insecurity.

Thanks to all for the replies; UK or Netherlands seem to be good options.
I would never go to Belgium, they seem to have insane taxing.
Slovenia sounds good as well, but no idea wrt the language barrier...
Switzerland is a no-go, as not EU.

I don't like the UK. Here is why:

The UK have something called Encryption Key Disclosure Laws.

This means LE can force you to provide passwords for anything encrypted, like sensitive documents or Bitcoin wallets. Additionally they can use it to force you to hand over your SSL private key. This also means that you could go to jail if you forgot your password.

I don't know if this would be an issue for your business though, but I hate travelling to the UK for this reason. It's quite scary knowing that I could go to prison if I was forced to provide my encryption passwords. I don't really have anything to hide (I'm boring) but I wouldn't provide the passwords out of principle, so if I was ever compelled by law to do so I'd have to go to prison. But it is something to think about for Bitcoin businesses as so many use crypto products.

arnuschky

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Quote from: cryptofan5 on August 11, 2014, 07:41:48 AM

I think most EU countries are good for that. There are no specific laws yet that would prohibit bitcoin activity.

True, but that introduces a lot of insecurity.

Thanks to all for the replies; UK or Netherlands seem to be good options.
I would never go to Belgium, they seem to have insane taxing.
Slovenia sounds good as well, but no idea wrt the language barrier...
Switzerland is a no-go, as not EU.

cryptofan5

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I think most EU countries are good for that. There are no specific laws yet that would prohibit bitcoin activity.

MakeBelieve

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Quote from: ForgottenPassword on August 10, 2014, 08:13:37 AM

Quote from: MakeBelieve on August 10, 2014, 08:11:11 AM

Actually I never thought about Switzerland they would be a awesome country to start a business up because of their banking advantages.

Yeah it's a good idea, however I noticed that the OP said EU (Switzerland is not fully part of the EU). Additionally things have changed a lot of Switzerland in relation to off-shore bank accounts. It's not as good as it used to be.

Ah that's actually correct I forgot about it had to be in the EU. But offshore would still be a pretty good choice regardless if you are opening the business in another country.

ForgottenPassword

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Quote from: MakeBelieve on August 10, 2014, 08:11:11 AM

Actually I never thought about Switzerland they would be a awesome country to start a business up because of their banking advantages.

Yeah it's a good idea, however I noticed that the OP said EU (Switzerland is not fully part of the EU). Additionally things have changed a lot in Switzerland in relation to off-shore bank accounts. It's not as good as it used to be.

MakeBelieve

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Actually I never thought about Switzerland they would be a awesome country to start a business up because of their banking advantages.

ForgottenPassword

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That sort of depends on what the business is.

If its a gambling business then Ireland is a good place, SatoshiDice have a setup there - they are lax on gambling regulations.

If its something privacy focused you may want to go for Belgium for the strong privacy laws. Netherlands also has tax-advantages (lack of capital gains tax).

If you're worried about banking issues, why not go for Slovenia, Bitstamp have no problems operating from there. Or maybe Switzerland although they have complicated relations with the EU.

Talk to a lawyer, they can advise you best.

MakeBelieve

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London is probably the best option when they sort out some of the legal issues.

BitCoinNutJob

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once UK sort out the banking side which i believe they will i would say UK is very bitcoin friendly

Baitty

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You could speak to the banks before hand or not have a UK bank. I would say UK is probably the best option as it's pretty friendly and cost efficient to accept Bitcoin in your business.

arnuschky

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Which is at the moment the most advantageous EU country for a bitcoin startup?
Not sure, as I haven't been following the news lately.

UK for example seems to be very good on the legal side, but banks seem to
starve out all bitcoin-related business (that is rumor, though).

Topic: Best EU country for a bitcoin startup? (Read 4894 times)