Author

Topic: Bestchange keeps scammer exchangers and probably collaborates with them (Read 714 times)

hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 1723
Crypto Swap Exchange
Yes, if the transaction was indeed carried out as a P2P exchange and there is evidence of such a transaction, then we will have no reason to further withhold funds. An exception can only be the presence of an official request from law enforcement agencies for the immediate freezing or seizure of funds.
Thank you.  You just took the bait and proved me two things.  Fixed Float allows criminals to launder money through your flawed heroic system and you are stealing funds from innocent customers.

You earned thousands of dollars from me but you just lost me as a customer by opening up my eyes as to who you really are.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
We have developed a model for checking transactions so that the probability of suspending a customer's order that is not related to a crime in any way is minimal.
Wouldn't it be much easier if you share the results of said model before depositing? So: I inform you about the address I'll send funds from, and you tell me whether or not my funds are going to get frozen. It saves me the hassle of having to provide paperwork, and you don't have to spend time on providing evidence. But most importantly: I'm sure I don't lose my money depending on the decision of an anonymous website.

This whole setup makes it look like vigilante justice: you trick "criminals" into sending their funds to you, after which you decide what to do with it.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1397
Yes, I'm an asshole
There are many services for verifying transactions on AML, including public ones. So, in our experience, public services only help criminals in money laundering.

Could you name a few, please? Out of curiosity if any of my balance would be tagged and lost once put them in your platform or other platform with similar policy. And by the way, I think you mistyped "opinion". You're saying, "so, in our opinion," right? We got you.

We have developed a model for checking transactions so that the probability of suspending a customer's order that is not related to a crime in any way is minimal.

[...]

Regarding your screenshot, where two reviews are displayed, where we allegedly froze user funds for no reason - we all have evidence that user funds were obtained fraudulently. [...]

So the two cases pointed out by OP on the opening post, they're happen to be proven as a stolen funds? As you've state that you have nothing to hide --quoted below-- certainly it means you don't mind sharing your foundings and evidences that became the basis for both cases?

As you've assured so many times that you never asked for personal data, and the anonymity of your customer is --also quoted below-- preserved, we can infer that there are no sensitive information involved and so there will be none leaked if you share us your evidence here. Or can't you share it as well because it'll "empower" the scammer by letting them know that their act have been known, just like you can't provide your blocklist to "dis-empower" the terrorist?

We have answered as fully as possible all the questions that were asked to us here by other users of the forum. We have nothing to hide, we never freeze users' funds for no reason, if the user has provided all the evidence that he is not involved in the crime - we unfreeze the funds and conduct an exchange or return the funds. We want to repeat again that we do not request KYC, so that the anonymity of our customers is preserved. We always go to a meeting in solving an incident when victims or our partners come to us with information that funds were stolen or the funds are clearly fraudulent, we cooperate with the law enforcement agencies of the countries that contact us so that justice prevails, the thief was punished, and the victim received his funds back. We value our reputation and do not want to be complicit in crimes, because of ignoring which, our service may be blocked, which is why each case is considered individually. We rely only on the availability of reliable information from reputable services that are responsible for the correct data provided.

If you think you've answered all the questions here, I'd like to invite you to re-read the entire thread, there are a lot of interesting points that you conveniently missed. Like my part of FATF, or how could exactly, in your opinion that publishing your blocklist is really disadvantageous to prevent further ML or unnecessary account freezing.

You see, you keep repeating that you didn't require KYC, like that's the point we're pressing to you. It is NOT. Nor do we inquire about the why you froze an account. The answers are simple, everybody can easily whip a "he scammed someone" out of thin air. What we wanted to know is how do you prove the cases?

A casino can say they held their user's fund because the user cheated. A user can say certain platform scammed them some money by freezing without reason. A DT member --or anyone else, really-- can say a project is scam because they stole an idea somewhere, or whatnot. Eventually, everything breaks down to the how do the accusations or the statements is proven to be true, what basis, what evidence to back up the claim.

And so far, all you gave are vague answers and the ultimate weapon "we won't empower terrorist, we refuse to cooperate with scammers" or anything that fall along the line whenever you're cornered. Either that or you conveniently missed some key point in someone's question, or the entire post(s) themselves. You never presented a backup that your findings of someone's account is based on solid proof. Meanwhile, that thing is a very important here. How would you feel if in an overnight your account is marked as a scammer, flagged, there are hundreds of negative reviews about you, and when you asked why you got into that situation, people simply replied, "ohh, we have evidences that you commit a fraudulent activity, but we won't share it here because it'll help other exchange by making their action known"?

The concern is not why you suddenly froze --for instance-- my account, it's how you prove that my account is involved in fraudulent activity that deserve banning, while there's a huge probability that I'm stuck in this case simply because of my cluelessness that the fund I had was part of a ML, or I bought an XRP from a scammer.

We don't want clueless people to have their assets frozen because of their cluelessness upon depositing into your platform, specifically because --from what we may conclude from your jumbled explanation-- you played your own judge. You gathered evidences and blocklist etc. which remains private to you and your customer can't defend themselves. It is what PrivacyG prepared answer nicely describe, which you also conveniently missed.

Here, let me re-quote that for you and give you a hand a little: since your answer is positive, the question you'd want to address is marked in blue

[...]
If the answer is negative, then to me it becomes obvious this is selectively scamming and not about solving crime cases.  Either this or they are going to request information that does affect your privacy, which means they lied.  The other option is continuing to request irrelevant information from the customer until the customer gives up, similar to the way Free Wallet proceeds.

If the answer is positive, then the entire system is useless and a waste of time.  On both ends.

I asked the quoted question above thinking of a setup where a criminal sets up a trade between them and themselves, deposits the funds onto Fixed Float and pretends they never knew their Bitcoins have illegal origin.  They provide correspondence, although they spoke to themselves, all TXID's, confirm the address is theirs, provide a screenshot of the fake seller's Bisq profile.  Then what happens is you are enabling funds with criminal origin to be used onto your service and the criminal becomes innocent.

Which begs the question, of what good is their action to freeze funds if a very simple loop hole can be done within minutes to basically make the money legitimate?


[...]
-
Regards,
PrivacyG

And please don't say "we have a system". Remember, we are all about evidences here, so the expected answer is how exactly do you determine a user is an innocent victim or they're a scammer --or terrorist-- pretending to be innocent.
copper member
Activity: 279
Merit: 13
[speechless]

I'd like to firstly congratulate you, your jumbled explanation on this page only actually managed to make me stare at my screen for I'm not sure how long, it' a long minutes, re-read the entire page and found myself stared at my screen again because I'm not sure what's the best way to approach your situation. I even finally slept on it. So, I think this is the best way to address you and your sea of explanation, and trust me, I've wrote a very-very long post, but then decided to wrote a very simplified version. It's there in my draft, if you'd like to read.

So, simplified, if someone can't prove he's not related and didn't know the user he trade with, his account will be banned. If he can't provide proof of transaction, his account will be banned. If he bought a stolen money and can't prove his innocence, his account will be banned. In short, anyone using your platform, although they're free from KYC, they have to know a full details of the people they're about to transact with prior to using ypur platform or they'll be banned? Not sure if that's convenient, or if the info you inquire can be categorized as a legal questions, and not a harrasment, or extortion.

And what's the parameter of innocence? If A and B are friend and A tried to launder the money he stole from C through B who's about to sell it to D, which then put the money on FixedFloat, and they discussed it through a disposable chat platform, or even meeting face to face, or by paper airplane a-la high school students, or whatever, and since you found that D didn't know anything and somewhat can prove that B is not related and "didn't know" that the money is stolen, they'll get out of it? This means you're the ultimate judge of which fund is frozen and which one isn't?

Next, I still can't understand this statement,

The publication of our blocklist will provide information to criminals that their crime is known, and will help in their laundering. We will not assist criminals in any way. Honest users will be able to provide the necessary data if they have deleted this data purposefully.

How?

If any, it'll tighten their wiggle room. By having their address published, anyone is one or two steps away from tracking of the user and the true nature of the fund. No body would want to deal with the address owner and we can say good bye to the ML and TF.

But you choose to withheld this piece of very useful information. Clueless users who came to your platform wouldn't know what's about to hit them. All they know was they're dealing with someone --who probably dealt with someone else before them-- and boom, he went bankrupt in a day because all of his lifesaving is confiscated. The terrorist? Well, they sat calmly in their fortress, they've successfully launder their money, thanks to the cluelessness of the cryptocommunity because one of them didn't know the address they had a transaction with is belong to Gru.

Now, let's address your claim of emails from authorities accross the countries, what's the nature of this request? For you to stop harassing and extorting their citizen? Or to cease and desist?

Talking about FATF, were Seychelles fully FATF compliant? Last I check, Seychelles still arranging their regulations to meet thr standard, and from the evaluation taken in 2020, they're just meet 12 of the 40 guidelines FATF issued. Not sure which from those 12 speciefies what and if your actions were included and justified by those 12 compliantce, or if being nosy --and self appointed judge-- like this make you a progidy or a vigilante or an extortionist.



[...]
There won't be an admin who will have all the power and decide everything. All the bad reviews will be posted without proofs and all the good reviews must have proofs the exchange was actually made.
[...]

Beware of this point, it could backfire. We can only imagine what length a competitor would do to defame their fellow competition. For example, without having to submit a proof for bad review, a company called worstexchange could create hundreds of accounts to wrote bad review about his fellow competition, goodexchange. And without an admin who can moderate or decide the legitimacy of those fake reviews, your system would turn into a battlefield of reviews before ultimately collapsed.

There are many services for verifying transactions on AML, including public ones. So, in our experience, public services only help criminals in money laundering.

We have developed a model for checking transactions so that the probability of suspending a customer's order that is not related to a crime in any way is minimal.

We have answered as fully as possible all the questions that were asked to us here by other users of the forum. We have nothing to hide, we never freeze users' funds for no reason, if the user has provided all the evidence that he is not involved in the crime - we unfreeze the funds and conduct an exchange or return the funds. We want to repeat again that we do not request KYC, so that the anonymity of our customers is preserved. We always go to a meeting in solving an incident when victims or our partners come to us with information that funds were stolen or the funds are clearly fraudulent, we cooperate with the law enforcement agencies of the countries that contact us so that justice prevails, the thief was punished, and the victim received his funds back. We value our reputation and do not want to be complicit in crimes, because of ignoring which, our service may be blocked, which is why each case is considered individually. We rely only on the availability of reliable information from reputable services that are responsible for the correct data provided.
copper member
Activity: 279
Merit: 13
Correspondence, transactions may be requested; confirmation of ownership of the address by sending any transaction; links and contact details of the user who sent funds from an address explicitly related to the crime; if the funds were received from a mixer that directly sent funds related to the crime, then simply providing information to confirm receipt of funds from the mixer.
So.  If I provide correspondence, all TXID's, confirm the address is mine and provide a screenshot of the seller's Bisq profile then I am good to go?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Yes, if the transaction was indeed carried out as a P2P exchange and there is evidence of such a transaction, then we will have no reason to further withhold funds. An exception can only be the presence of an official request from law enforcement agencies for the immediate freezing or seizure of funds.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7060
Cashback 15%
BestChange needs competition. There's KYC? Not me!, but it still lists several of the same exchangers and doesn't have the marketing budget to promote it.
As far as I know Kycnot.me is not taking any percentage earnings from listing any exchanges and services on their website, it's open source project and anyone can contribute and post suggestion.
BestChange is commercially oriented service and I am sure they earn something from every exchange that is listed, even if that was never officially confirmed.
I would also like to see someone stepping up to be real competition for BestChange, that would also make them try to improve and be better.

PS
Kycnot.me does accept donations in BTC and XMR:
https://kycnot.me/about
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 1723
Crypto Swap Exchange
And what's the parameter of innocence?
I wish FixedFloat answered my previous reply before you posted this, but you beat me to it.  I was ready to paste and publish a pre written answer no matter their reply.

Fixed Float said this.

Correspondence, transactions may be requested; confirmation of ownership of the address by sending any transaction; links and contact details of the user who sent funds from an address explicitly related to the crime; if the funds were received from a mixer that directly sent funds related to the crime, then simply providing information to confirm receipt of funds from the mixer.

So they provided a list of proof they can request.  To which I replied,

So.  If I provide correspondence, all TXID's, confirm the address is mine and provide a screenshot of the seller's Bisq profile then I am good to go?

If the answer is negative, then to me it becomes obvious this is selectively scamming and not about solving crime cases.  Either this or they are going to request information that does affect your privacy, which means they lied.  The other option is continuing to request irrelevant information from the customer until the customer gives up, similar to the way Free Wallet proceeds.

If the answer is positive, then the entire system is useless and a waste of time.  On both ends.

I asked the quoted question above thinking of a setup where a criminal sets up a trade between them and themselves, deposits the funds onto Fixed Float and pretends they never knew their Bitcoins have illegal origin.  They provide correspondence, although they spoke to themselves, all TXID's, confirm the address is theirs, provide a screenshot of the fake seller's Bisq profile.  Then what happens is you are enabling funds with criminal origin to be used onto your service and the criminal becomes innocent.

Which begs the question, of what good is their action to freeze funds if a very simple loop hole can be done within minutes to basically make the money legitimate?

And all of these services have the guts to pretend they are saving the world.  Pretending to be the hero in a super villain movie.  Fixed Float's way of saving the world can be easily exploited by a criminal.  The criminal becomes innocent and the innocent customers like me get selectively scammed by having their funds frozen and seized.  The criminal gets their money back through their simple setup, I get my funds stolen by Fixed Float for not thinking the unthinkable: I uninstalled the Bisq I used a few years ago and have no proof of my trade, therefore I deserve to have my money taken away.

This is B S.  There is no service in the world that can explain they are doing good by imposing Know Your Customer procedures.  If anything, Know Your Customer enables my identity to be stolen and legitimate customers to be robbed off their Bitcoin while criminals continue their job with no barriers.

-----

How?

If any, it'll tighten their wiggle room. By having their address published, anyone is one or two steps away from tracking of the user and the true nature of the fund. No body would want to deal with the address owner and we can say good bye to the ML and TF.
Because according to Fixed Float, if you have a serial killer on the run TV channels better not reveal their face!  This enables the criminal to escape, are they not right?

If they publish addresses of criminals, we know what to avoid, spare time investigators have what to investigate and connections will inevitably be made.  If not today, maybe in an year.  Maybe in five, who cares as long as the criminal is revealed.

Someone will definitely have links bookmarked and monitored.  We have some Bitcoin Talk members stalking even addresses that have not moved coins since 2010.  If they know an address is linked to crime, they will be even more curious to investigate.  One mistake and the criminal's history is revealed from the beginning to the end.  But of course it is easier to avoid the truth and any concrete answer than say out loud that they were and are in the wrong.

Funny in such a sad way that we are living in 2022 and fighting for logic.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5

Beware of this point, it could backfire. We can only imagine what length a competitor would do to defame their fellow competition. For example, without having to submit a proof for bad review, a company called worstexchange could create hundreds of accounts to wrote bad review about his fellow competition, goodexchange.

Yes, but for the other hand, now we have the opposite situation in which all the positive reviews aren't moderated by admins of ratings. So exchangers write positive reviews for themselves. And I don't see many bad consequences of this. The problem is bad reviews become gray, not good reviews posted without proofs. Also there are sites like WoT and Trustpilot. They don't check if you actually were a customer when you post a bad review of some business. Of course competitors write bad reviews to each other but it doesn't harm WoT and Trustpilot and doesn't turn these websites to battlefields. So, theoretically I agree with you, but practically I don't see the situation described by you on reviews websites.


And without an admin who can moderate or decide the legitimacy of those fake reviews, your system would turn into a battlefield of reviews before ultimately collapsed.

And as for admin's power. Wikipedia is created by community and it's ok. And I'm not saying moderation isn't necessary. For example, if some users say worstexchange asks for kyc I think I should read worstexchange's rules and maybe speak with worstexchange's admin to check if these users tell true. But moderation (in the meaning of checking if some info is true) and power aren't the same thing. I mean, there won't be an admin deciding "I'll make this review gray or delete it because I want to" or "I won't put this icon because I don't want to".

Also I think nothing is perfect. If I create the exchanger rating and see it doesn't work the way I expected so I'll change things that don't work as expected.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1397
Yes, I'm an asshole
[speechless]

I'd like to firstly congratulate you, your jumbled explanation on this page only actually managed to make me stare at my screen for I'm not sure how long, it' a long minutes, re-read the entire page and found myself stared at my screen again because I'm not sure what's the best way to approach your situation. I even finally slept on it. So, I think this is the best way to address you and your sea of explanation, and trust me, I've wrote a very-very long post, but then decided to wrote a very simplified version. It's there in my draft, if you'd like to read.

So, simplified, if someone can't prove he's not related and didn't know the user he trade with, his account will be banned. If he can't provide proof of transaction, his account will be banned. If he bought a stolen money and can't prove his innocence, his account will be banned. In short, anyone using your platform, although they're free from KYC, they have to know a full details of the people they're about to transact with prior to using ypur platform or they'll be banned? Not sure if that's convenient, or if the info you inquire can be categorized as a legal questions, and not a harrasment, or extortion.

And what's the parameter of innocence? If A and B are friend and A tried to launder the money he stole from C through B who's about to sell it to D, which then put the money on FixedFloat, and they discussed it through a disposable chat platform, or even meeting face to face, or by paper airplane a-la high school students, or whatever, and since you found that D didn't know anything and somewhat can prove that B is not related and "didn't know" that the money is stolen, they'll get out of it? This means you're the ultimate judge of which fund is frozen and which one isn't?

Next, I still can't understand this statement,

The publication of our blocklist will provide information to criminals that their crime is known, and will help in their laundering. We will not assist criminals in any way. Honest users will be able to provide the necessary data if they have deleted this data purposefully.

How?

If any, it'll tighten their wiggle room. By having their address published, anyone is one or two steps away from tracking of the user and the true nature of the fund. No body would want to deal with the address owner and we can say good bye to the ML and TF.

But you choose to withheld this piece of very useful information. Clueless users who came to your platform wouldn't know what's about to hit them. All they know was they're dealing with someone --who probably dealt with someone else before them-- and boom, he went bankrupt in a day because all of his lifesaving is confiscated. The terrorist? Well, they sat calmly in their fortress, they've successfully launder their money, thanks to the cluelessness of the cryptocommunity because one of them didn't know the address they had a transaction with is belong to Gru.

Now, let's address your claim of emails from authorities accross the countries, what's the nature of this request? For you to stop harassing and extorting their citizen? Or to cease and desist?

Talking about FATF, were Seychelles fully FATF compliant? Last I check, Seychelles still arranging their regulations to meet thr standard, and from the evaluation taken in 2020, they're just meet 12 of the 40 guidelines FATF issued. Not sure which from those 12 speciefies what and if your actions were included and justified by those 12 compliantce, or if being nosy --and self appointed judge-- like this make you a progidy or a vigilante or an extortionist.



[...]
There won't be an admin who will have all the power and decide everything. All the bad reviews will be posted without proofs and all the good reviews must have proofs the exchange was actually made.
[...]

Beware of this point, it could backfire. We can only imagine what length a competitor would do to defame their fellow competition. For example, without having to submit a proof for bad review, a company called worstexchange could create hundreds of accounts to wrote bad review about his fellow competition, goodexchange. And without an admin who can moderate or decide the legitimacy of those fake reviews, your system would turn into a battlefield of reviews before ultimately collapsed.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5
I'm thinking about creating an exchangers rating.
~
What do you think? Does community need a rating like this?
Go for it! Only one way to find out if it will be popular. And if it becomes popular, you'll add referral links to the exchangers, after which you'll have a financial interest in keeping them on your website.

Actually I'd like to receive donations if it becomes popular  Grin I don't want to have any money from exchangers because in this case I won't be independent and I want to stay neutral and protect interests of customers, not exchangers Smiley Also a website like this doesn't need an expensive server and the content will be generated mostly by the community so I'll spend much time only in the beginning when I'll create it.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
I'm thinking about creating an exchangers rating.
~
What do you think? Does community need a rating like this?
Go for it! Only one way to find out if it will be popular. And if it becomes popular, you'll add referral links to the exchangers, after which you'll have a financial interest in keeping them on your website.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5
BestChange needs competition. There's KYC? Not me!, but it still lists several of the same exchangers and doesn't have the marketing budget to promote it.


I'm thinking about creating an exchangers rating. But it would rather be an antirating. So I want it to be a people's rating where users could add exchangers and could edit info of exchangers. Like in Wikipedia. There won't be an admin who will have all the power and decide everything. All the bad reviews will be posted without proofs and all the good reviews must have proofs the exchange was actually made. And exchangers will have the following icons: kyc, can scam you (seize funds), has legal info, has history of scam from other ratings, has rules on the website (some exchangers don't have links to rules to hide them from users), exchanger collaborates with police and can provide the police all your data. So users will edit exchanger's info on the rating and for example make some icons gray or red. And also there will be "report" buttons. I don't think we should just passively observe the horrible behavior of some exchangers. I think we should report them to hosters, domain registrators, police (why not? they collect our info and tell they report customers, so it would be fair if customers report them first and exchangers almost always run their business illegally).

What do you think? Does community need a rating like this?
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
All exchangers at Bestchange that have KYC do so. That's the point. And Bestchange keeps them there, disputes become gray and admin says everything is ok.
BestChange needs competition. There's KYC? Not me!, but it still lists several of the same exchangers and doesn't have the marketing budget to promote it.

Quote
Some anonymous guy says "well, I think your funds are from bad origins so I'll seize them and will keep them, bye, thanks"
It was suggested before that someone creates their own "Taint detection service", that just labels every address as clean. After all, that's how Bitcoin and fungibility works.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5
In addition, we repeat once again that we never request the personal data of our customers, in order not to affect their anonymity, we only request information about the origin of funds, which is easy to provide
I don't know what origin of funds exactly means, but I am sure it includes some kind of customer personal information.
If this is so easy, can you also prove origin of all coins you own as a business, I am sure it's much easier for you to do this?
Can you please tell us what magical tools are you using that proves some coins are coming from hacks and stolen funds??

We cannot make a refund to the same address because the address is compromised. We are starting the refund procedure for the victim.
So is this customer limitless_777 also being refunded to other address or not?


They didn't seize my funds, I just saw they scam many people so I reported.


Like yes, we will seize your funds if our friends say your address is bad.  Who decides my address is bad and how?  Is it not just very easy to use this reason to seize a few dozen thousands just because someone told us it comes from bad origin?

As I stated in my other answer.  Seizing for 'bad origins' is mostly used to legally selectively scam customers.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

That's what I'm trying to say in all my posts in this thread. Some anonymous guy says "well, I think your funds are from bad origins so I'll seize them and will keep them, bye, thanks". The reason of seizing is "our partners said" or something like that. And more than that, you don't know anything about this guy that wants to check you and your funds origins, he keeps staying anonymous but in the same time he demands all info he wants from you. Is it fair? And it's not only FixedFloat. All exchangers at Bestchange that have KYC do so. That's the point. And Bestchange keeps them there, disputes become gray and admin says everything is ok. And doesn't want to put at least KYC icon near exchanger's name if the exchanger has KYC. It looks like Bestchange wants to hide this info from users.



Speaking for my own country --which will remain unspecified-- even centralized financial institutions are not allowed to ask for their customers to provide proof of funds origin. Asking where from and what for? Sure, they asked that, but their customer may just said whatever crossed their mind. "My goldfish died yesterday and inherited me 1 trillion dollars, which currently you're seeing right now. For what does the funds for? Well, I'd like to build shelters for homeless koi fish" and the bank would accepted that answer without asking their customer to provide the proof of... will... by the goldfish. The authority to ask for proof of fund's origin fall into the hand of the govt. themselves, specifically their tax and financial dept. upon investigation.

Recently I even learned that during a preliminary investigation of tax evasion and/or money laundering, the tax dept. --similar to IRS, I think-- staffs are not allowed to ask for the source of money too, let alone to ask the "suspect" to provide proof of source. They only allowed to ask for confirmation if the said person owned certain value and assets that they flagged and where from. It's until further investigation of AML and tax evasion that the person are obligated to provide the proof of sources and other articles asked. And I'm talking about the govt. themselves here, the one who held kinda "absolute" power. So how does a decentralized org. in your country required and given an authority to ask for the same is... beyond me.

This is what I'm trying to tell! Smiley Even banks and government must have proofs of crime committed or a proof there is an investigation to seize funds. So why the hell some anonymous guy in internet who doesn't even provide customers his legal info (so he isn't a legit company since there isn't any legal info about his business) seize funds? I think that guy overestimates himself. And the only real reason of this is that customers send their coins to that anonymous guy first. So when you have sent your funds and don't have control of them an exchanger demands anything it wants from you and do with your money anything it wants too. This is the only reason, not government requirements or laws.

But, I'm also aware and understand that different country applies different rules. Maybe IRS staff may asked what the tax staff in my country aren't allowed to. So, since you're stating that you're based in Sechyelles, could you point us to the regulation article specifically mentioning this matter? I'm sure we're one google away to verify that if you can help with the article number.

Does he have any proofs his exchanger is a company based in Seychelles? Why should customers think this is true, because he says so? I mean, any company must provide it's legal info on it's website. With it's legal registration number or so, it's legal name etc. So where is it? Why doesn't he put this info on the website? Why doesn't he provide this info here and just ignors this question? It's because he isn't any kind of a company, just an anonymous guy seizing funds Smiley

We cannot make a refund to the same address because the address is compromised. We are starting the refund procedure for the victim.

so besides being an exchanger, you are also the police, prosecutor and judge. I wonder who gave you the licence for that.

can you present a successful example here where you confiscated dirty money and returned it to the victim? I mean example with all evidence.

We work all over the world, based in the Seychelles.

 Huh
this information is certainly reassuring and instils confidence in all your clients. at some point, you ask for all KYC information from the user, while we know nothing about you. it's a bit excessive for someone who presents himself as a judge, prosecutor, or exchanger...

This is the point Smiley I'm so happy I'm not the only person who undertands this.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 1723
Crypto Swap Exchange
Correspondence, transactions may be requested; confirmation of ownership of the address by sending any transaction; links and contact details of the user who sent funds from an address explicitly related to the crime; if the funds were received from a mixer that directly sent funds related to the crime, then simply providing information to confirm receipt of funds from the mixer.
So.  If I provide correspondence, all TXID's, confirm the address is mine and provide a screenshot of the seller's Bisq profile then I am good to go?

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Regards,
PrivacyG
copper member
Activity: 279
Merit: 13
Different proofs are required for each case, depending on each case
You have been avoiding answers for days, this only makes it look worse.  How many times did we ask you the same thing and you only found ways to avoid the answer?  You are digging your own grave at this point.

List a few documents you may request.

As we answered earlier, in each specific case, the set of requested data may be different depending on the information provided from the client, but below we have listed some list of possible requests

but in the mentioned case, in the absence of evidence from the sender, we will act on the instructions of the law enforcement agencies investigating this case.
You should not delete evidence of receiving funds from any services, as this may become a problem for confirming the source of funds.
Who are you to tell me what I should do with my software really?  If I made a Bisq trade and do not use the Bitcoin I received for 10 years, am I supposed to keep my Bisq installed just in case FixedFloat decides to arbitrarily seize my funds?

Do you sign a contract when giving your children or nieces a bill of $10 just in case some body asks them where they got the money from?  In my country people often to go to a random shop and politely ask them to exchange large bank notes into smaller ones for change.  Am I supposed to keep a record of this just in case some body asks for the source of funds?

In no case do we force you to follow this recommendation, but if you need to provide the source of origin of funds, it will help to resolve this issue faster.

Honest users will be able to provide the necessary data if they have deleted this data purposefully.
What kind of data can I provide you to prove the coins I received were in fact from a legitimate and fair trade made on a software I deleted?
-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Correspondence, transactions may be requested; confirmation of ownership of the address by sending any transaction; links and contact details of the user who sent funds from an address explicitly related to the crime; if the funds were received from a mixer that directly sent funds related to the crime, then simply providing information to confirm receipt of funds from the mixer.
copper member
Activity: 279
Merit: 13
You should not delete evidence of receiving funds from any services, as this may become a problem for confirming the source of funds.
That's not up to you to decide. When I pay cash in a shop, they don't ask me where I got the money. Exchanges in the Seychelles shouldn't ask for my personal administration either.

In no case do we force you to follow this recommendation, but if you need to provide the source of origin of funds, it will help to resolve this issue faster.

Okay, hypothetical: let's say you've blocked my funds, and I tell you I got it from the Currency Exchange board. A simple, honest p2p trade. Is that enough for you to return my funds?
I take it you don't want to answer it, which is fine, but I'll draw my own conclusion.

We have the answer to your question ready, we will duplicate it again.

If the funds were received from a p2p exchange, then we will request details of this exchange, when and under what conditions it was made, where the user who wants to make this exchange was found and all correspondence with him.

If it turns out that the client initially knew that the funds were stolen and went to the exchange due to the low exchange rate of coins, then this is equated by law enforcement agencies to complicity in a crime, namely, assistance in money laundering. If the transaction was absolutely transparent and the client has all the data about the completed exchange, then we will have no reason to further withhold these funds.

we will act on the instructions of the law enforcement agencies investigating this case.
This is another interesting thing: I don't think most law enforcement agencies are very willing to work with an anonymous company in the Seychelles. But apart from that, what makes you think any "local" law enforcement agency holds jurisdiction over international financial crime? Or even better: how do you even know you're really talking to law enforcement, if they're based in a country you know nothing about?

We receive dozens of requests a day from law enforcement agencies of a huge number of countries. All requests are sent from official email addresses (which of course are checked) by law enforcement agencies, contain signatures and seals. In the future, we are going to provide a transparency report on the number of requests processed.
copper member
Activity: 279
Merit: 13
But, I'm also aware and understand that different country applies different rules. Maybe IRS staff may asked what the tax staff in my country aren't allowed to. So, since you're stating that you're based in Sechyelles, could you point us to the regulation article specifically mentioning this matter? I'm sure we're one google away to verify that if you can help with the article number.

Seychelles does not regulate these issues. However, we work as an international company and are obliged to respond to requests from law enforcement agencies for information, as well as the freezing of funds. Otherwise, sanctions may be imposed on our service, as a result of which the existence of the service will be impossible.

You mean as in morally obligated? As in you're not actually required by Sechyelles, but you want to be a law abiding citizen and friendly neighborhood err... exchange, so you choose to be nosy and ask for the sources? Or is it legally obligated by some international law? I can understand that maybe there's a global law that applied against AML-ATF that we are somehow didn't aware of its existence. But rest assured, you can just state the article number and we're back on track. The question, simplified, is: are you just being nosy or can you point us to the regulation that made you authorized to ask people to provide proof of source of fund.

It'll be quite a different story if by asking to provide, you were meaning to say that your clients just needed to state where it came from without actually providing the proof of transaction, written contract, etc. just like my illustration with the bank staff and my goldfish. For this, though, you'll then intersect with and have to answer LoyceV's question above. And if I may jump in and broaden the hypothetical scenario, the fund is actually came from harmful source and will actually be used for terrorism funding. Is simply saying someone got it from p2p board enough?

Formally, we must act in accordance with FATF (probably it is not necessary to explain that this involves the introduction of KYC for most exchanges), however, we want to provide our users with greater convenience of using our service without taking away the anonymity of exchanges, for this reason we chose the way of requesting data only in exceptional cases, such as the explicit presence of evidence that the funds were obtained by criminal means. In particular, we also feel morally obliged to help the victims who turn to us, as well as our partners. The frozen funds are returned to the victims from whom the funds were stolen.

Requesting information about the source of funds is also practiced on all major exchanges, even on those where KYC has already been passed, if information is received that the funds were obtained by criminal means.

Each case of data request is different. In the vast majority of cases, the provision of data is possible without any deanonymization. If the funds were received by the user from an obvious criminal, then in this case, of course, we will need all the data that can help law enforcement agencies identify the criminal.
copper member
Activity: 279
Merit: 13
Quote from: dkbit98

Can you please tell us what magical tools are you using that proves some coins are coming from hacks and stolen funds??

We use our own block sheets, and our own transaction verification systems. For some currencies, systems offered by specialized services are used, for example, for XRP we use a checker from xrplorer.com

Quote from: dkbit98
So is this customer limitless_777 also being refunded to other address or not?

The user limitless_777 did not indicate whether his funds were frozen in our service and what order is in question, so we have nothing to answer this question.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 1723
Crypto Swap Exchange
If it turns out that the client initially knew that the funds were stolen
Wait a second.  Do you actually think if I go and make a Peer to Peer trade with some body they will message me privately saying Hey dude, look we will do this trade but just so you know the money you'll receive was stolen?  I never spoke to my Bisq traders.  Ever.

If the transaction was absolutely transparent and the client has all the data about the completed exchange, then we will have no reason to further withhold these funds.
Or do you actually think that before completing a trade I will request the trader to provide me information about their source of funds?

Go try to make a face to face transaction with some body and ask them where they got the money from.  They will laugh in your face and leave.  I am convinced more than 90% of the Peer to Peer trades are very straight forward with zero of minimum communication between the seller and the buyer.  Speaking from own experience.  If you ask me right now to provide you any communication with any one I traded with, I have none nor did I ever have any.  I just send my part and they send theirs in exchange.  Why would I care about the person I am trading with on Bisq.  It is their problems to solve if they are doing the crime, not mine.  What I am doing is an Exchange.

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Regards,
PrivacyG
copper member
Activity: 279
Merit: 13
In order to continue the exchange or return the money, we must make sure that the funds were received honestly, as well as get all the information about the source of the funds received.
Okay, hypothetical: let's say you've blocked my funds, and I tell you I got it from the Currency Exchange board. A simple, honest p2p trade. Is that enough for you to return my funds?

If the funds were received from a p2p exchange, then we will request details of this exchange, when and under what conditions it was made, where the user who wants to make this exchange was found and all correspondence with him.

If it turns out that the client initially knew that the funds were stolen and went to the exchange due to the low exchange rate of coins, then this is equated by law enforcement agencies to complicity in a crime, namely, assistance in money laundering. If the transaction was absolutely transparent and the client has all the data about the completed exchange, then we will have no reason to further withhold these funds.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 1723
Crypto Swap Exchange
Different proofs are required for each case, depending on each case
You have been avoiding answers for days, this only makes it look worse.  How many times did we ask you the same thing and you only found ways to avoid the answer?  You are digging your own grave at this point.

List a few documents you may request.

but in the mentioned case, in the absence of evidence from the sender, we will act on the instructions of the law enforcement agencies investigating this case.
Many countries do not have the best relationship with Russia overall.  If we are talking about a Russian crime that only Russian law enforcement is investigating, do I have to obey to Russian law enforcement instructions in order to gain my funds back?

You should not delete evidence of receiving funds from any services, as this may become a problem for confirming the source of funds.
Who are you to tell me what I should do with my software really?  If I made a Bisq trade and do not use the Bitcoin I received for 10 years, am I supposed to keep my Bisq installed just in case FixedFloat decides to arbitrarily seize my funds?

Do you sign a contract when giving your children or nieces a bill of $10 just in case some body asks them where they got the money from?  In my country people often to go to a random shop and politely ask them to exchange large bank notes into smaller ones for change.  Am I supposed to keep a record of this just in case some body asks for the source of funds?

Honest users will be able to provide the necessary data if they have deleted this data purposefully.
What kind of data can I provide you to prove the coins I received were in fact from a legitimate and fair trade made on a software I deleted?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 3098
Their silence is starting to say more than they said in all their 5 posts on this thread.

regardless of whether they read or write a post here, it is much more interesting how they completely avoid giving specific answers, and they were asked a lot of essentially very important questions. I believe that they can answer endlessly in general, without giving a concrete answer.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
You should not delete evidence of receiving funds from any services, as this may become a problem for confirming the source of funds.
That's not up to you to decide. When I pay cash in a shop, they don't ask me where I got the money. Exchanges in the Seychelles shouldn't ask for my personal administration either.

Any response to this?
Okay, hypothetical: let's say you've blocked my funds, and I tell you I got it from the Currency Exchange board. A simple, honest p2p trade. Is that enough for you to return my funds?
I take it you don't want to answer it, which is fine, but I'll draw my own conclusion.



we will act on the instructions of the law enforcement agencies investigating this case.
This is another interesting thing: I don't think most law enforcement agencies are very willing to work with an anonymous company in the Seychelles. But apart from that, what makes you think any "local" law enforcement agency holds jurisdiction over international financial crime? Or even better: how do you even know you're really talking to law enforcement, if they're based in a country you know nothing about?
copper member
Activity: 279
Merit: 13
In order to continue the exchange or return the money, we must make sure that the funds were received honestly, as well as get all the information about the source of the funds received.
cannot provide us with information
information about the source of the funds
providing the requested data
All the information about the source of the funds received.  Like what?  In an investigation, what kind of information is requested as proof of origin?  You are being too vague.

I will provide you a hypothetical scenario.  I send 0.5 BTC to your Exchange address.  My 0.5 BTC were obtained from Bisq, but I have long since uninstalled Bisq so I have no screenshots or recorded proof of origin.  The transaction before mine was a hit man payment.  You have evidence of this, I have no idea about it.  What exactly would Fixed Float request me to provide as proof of origin?

If the user has nothing to do with the crime and did not know that the funds he received were criminal, then we have no reason to withhold these funds.
So if tomorrow all your customers deposit Coins from illegal sources they did not know about, you are perfectly fine with your company exchanging funds with criminal origin?

If LoyceV receives Bitcoin from a criminal origin, proves to be innocent and forwards the amount to me.  Exchanging funds with criminal history on Fixed Float is now fine?

Of course, we will not publish the blocking list, since we do not cooperate with cryptocurrency scammers and thieves,
Why not publish it?  I want to know who on the Blockchain is a known confirmed criminal with strong evidence so I can avoid them.  How else do you want me to have Bitcoin earned from legitimate origins if I do not even know who are the illegitimates first of all?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Different proofs are required for each case, depending on each case

The Bisq example is not entirely correct, but in the mentioned case, in the absence of evidence from the sender, we will act on the instructions of the law enforcement agencies investigating this case. You should not delete evidence of receiving funds from any services, as this may become a problem for confirming the source of funds.

The publication of our blocklist will provide information to criminals that their crime is known, and will help in their laundering. We will not assist criminals in any way. Honest users will be able to provide the necessary data if they have deleted this data purposefully.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1397
Yes, I'm an asshole
Their silence is starting to say more than they said in all their 5 posts on this thread.

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Regards,
PrivacyG

LOL, couldn't agree more about this. I've been thinking since yesterday that we're kinda scared them off by bombarding them with questions that'll expose them and their tendency towards unilateral decision and judge-playing; they've been online several times since their last post and stopped replying here. And as you said, the silence actually speaks louder than what they've been trying to say here with their posts.

I was considering about giving them couple of days, see if they'll go online and still intentionally ignoring the unanswered questions here --giving benefit of the doubt here, maybe the silence is because they're gathering data and proper answer-- and start a thread to warn people about their service. If anyone using their service are subjected to a russian roulette of fund freezing for stupid reason, they have the right to know what they're going into before they put their money on it.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 1723
Crypto Swap Exchange
Their silence is starting to say more than they said in all their 5 posts on this thread.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7060
Cashback 15%
Seychelles does not regulate these issues. However, we work as an international company and are obliged to respond to requests from law enforcement agencies for information, as well as the freezing of funds. Otherwise, sanctions may be imposed on our service, as a result of which the existence of the service will be impossible.
Why are you avoiding to answer some of the questions asked by me and other members in this topic?
I asked few simple questions and I expect to get an answer from official representative of this exchange, not doing that doesn't look good.
So far I didn't saw any proof that you own any funds, and I doubt law enforcement from Seychelles ever contacted you about some bitcoin transactions or asked you to freeze coins.

I will repeat my questions to fixedfloat:
 -Can you tell us what  tools are you using to prove some coins are coming from hacks and stolen funds??
- Is customer limitless_777 also being refunded to other address?

legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Well I mean these services need to decide, either they accept funds with a criminal history or they do not.  In other words.  Either they close down their service or not.  No way they can sit in between, because then they are seizing funds subjectively and selectively.  Your Bitcoin gets seized for having a criminal history but my Bitcoin with criminal history does not because they verified 3 pictures of my face?  Make it make sense.
Exactly! None of those services disclose how they decide which funds are good or evil, so it's completely arbitrary. It's also a very recent thing that suddenly happens a lot on many different services, which (again) makes me think there's some strong marketing behind it. And that's not in the interest of Bitcoin users.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 1723
Crypto Swap Exchange
This is exactly why fungibility is so important, and taint is a very dangerous attack on Bitcoin's existence. Bitcoin is electronic cash, and like cash, it doesn't matter who used the money before you. Whoever signs the transaction is the owner, that's how Bitcoin works.
Well I mean these services need to decide, either they accept funds with a criminal history or they do not.  In other words.  Either they close down their service or not.  No way they can sit in between, because then they are seizing funds subjectively and selectively.  Your Bitcoin gets seized for having a criminal history but my Bitcoin with criminal history does not because they verified 3 pictures of my face?  Make it make sense.

Because if they decide to crack down funds with criminal history, they may as well seize and block every single transfer received and I should report every single Bitcoin transfer they make to my account to authorities as having a record of criminal history too.

Fixed Float, how many transactions prior to mine do they go back through and verify to qualify me as a Bitcoin owner suspicious of criminal activity?  2? 5? 25 or all the way back to the mined block?  I bet if I do another transaction on Fixed Float and go all the way block to where that amount came from, I would find at least one suspicious transaction.  Does that make Fixed Float legally liable for all that suspicious history?

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Regards,
PrivacyG
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
If LoyceV receives Bitcoin from a criminal origin, proves to be innocent and forwards the amount to me.  Exchanging funds with criminal history on Fixed Float is now fine?
This is exactly why fungibility is so important, and taint is a very dangerous attack on Bitcoin's existence. Bitcoin is electronic cash, and like cash, it doesn't matter who used the money before you. Whoever signs the transaction is the owner, that's how Bitcoin works.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1397
Yes, I'm an asshole
But, I'm also aware and understand that different country applies different rules. Maybe IRS staff may asked what the tax staff in my country aren't allowed to. So, since you're stating that you're based in Sechyelles, could you point us to the regulation article specifically mentioning this matter? I'm sure we're one google away to verify that if you can help with the article number.

Seychelles does not regulate these issues. However, we work as an international company and are obliged to respond to requests from law enforcement agencies for information, as well as the freezing of funds. Otherwise, sanctions may be imposed on our service, as a result of which the existence of the service will be impossible.

You mean as in morally obligated? As in you're not actually required by Sechyelles, but you want to be a law abiding citizen and friendly neighborhood err... exchange, so you choose to be nosy and ask for the sources? Or is it legally obligated by some international law? I can understand that maybe there's a global law that applied against AML-ATF that we are somehow didn't aware of its existence. But rest assured, you can just state the article number and we're back on track. The question, simplified, is: are you just being nosy or can you point us to the regulation that made you authorized to ask people to provide proof of source of fund.

It'll be quite a different story if by asking to provide, you were meaning to say that your clients just needed to state where it came from without actually providing the proof of transaction, written contract, etc. just like my illustration with the bank staff and my goldfish. For this, though, you'll then intersect with and have to answer LoyceV's question above. And if I may jump in and broaden the hypothetical scenario, the fund is actually came from harmful source and will actually be used for terrorism funding. Is simply saying someone got it from p2p board enough?

Of course, we will not publish the blocking list, since we do not cooperate with cryptocurrency scammers and thieves, we treat them extremely negatively and believe that they bring huge harm to the entire crypto community. Many of our employees have also been hacked and caught in fraud before, so we are well aware of how difficult it can be to recover lost funds.

If the funds are stolen or from the darkmarket, we do not recommend making exchanges on our service, since we do not support fraud in any form.

Why not? You contradict your own statement. You're not cooperating with scammers and thieves, not recommending to make exchanges with stolen fund and dark market, but you refuse to share the list? How is this being non-cooperative to the thieves? I can only think the benefits if you provide it than the disadvantages. For instance, everybody is just one ninjastic away to know whether they're dealing with a scammer or not and should they continue the transaction or terminate it before it waste their time any further, or get their fund blocked by you. Which also means, fewer things in your plate to do, since the transaction --thanks to your list-- didn't happen.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 1723
Crypto Swap Exchange
In order to continue the exchange or return the money, we must make sure that the funds were received honestly, as well as get all the information about the source of the funds received.
cannot provide us with information
information about the source of the funds
providing the requested data
All the information about the source of the funds received.  Like what?  In an investigation, what kind of information is requested as proof of origin?  You are being too vague.

I will provide you a hypothetical scenario.  I send 0.5 BTC to your Exchange address.  My 0.5 BTC were obtained from Bisq, but I have long since uninstalled Bisq so I have no screenshots or recorded proof of origin.  The transaction before mine was a hit man payment.  You have evidence of this, I have no idea about it.  What exactly would Fixed Float request me to provide as proof of origin?

If the user has nothing to do with the crime and did not know that the funds he received were criminal, then we have no reason to withhold these funds.
So if tomorrow all your customers deposit Coins from illegal sources they did not know about, you are perfectly fine with your company exchanging funds with criminal origin?

If LoyceV receives Bitcoin from a criminal origin, proves to be innocent and forwards the amount to me.  Exchanging funds with criminal history on Fixed Float is now fine?

Of course, we will not publish the blocking list, since we do not cooperate with cryptocurrency scammers and thieves,
Why not publish it?  I want to know who on the Blockchain is a known confirmed criminal with strong evidence so I can avoid them.  How else do you want me to have Bitcoin earned from legitimate origins if I do not even know who are the illegitimates first of all?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG
copper member
Activity: 279
Merit: 13
[...]In addition, we repeat once again that we never request the personal data of our customers, in order not to affect their anonymity, we only request information about the origin of funds, which is easy to provide[...]

[...]
We work all over the world, based in the Seychelles.

[...]

But, I'm also aware and understand that different country applies different rules. Maybe IRS staff may asked what the tax staff in my country aren't allowed to. So, since you're stating that you're based in Sechyelles, could you point us to the regulation article specifically mentioning this matter? I'm sure we're one google away to verify that if you can help with the article number.

Seychelles does not regulate these issues. However, we work as an international company and are obliged to respond to requests from law enforcement agencies for information, as well as the freezing of funds. Otherwise, sanctions may be imposed on our service, as a result of which the existence of the service will be impossible.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
In order to continue the exchange or return the money, we must make sure that the funds were received honestly, as well as get all the information about the source of the funds received.
Okay, hypothetical: let's say you've blocked my funds, and I tell you I got it from the Currency Exchange board. A simple, honest p2p trade. Is that enough for you to return my funds?
copper member
Activity: 279
Merit: 13
Who decides my address is bad and how?
The companies who earn money from selling their taint-detection-services of course! They're also the ones who have all financial interests in promoting the crazy idea that taint even exists, because without it, they'd be out of business.

We analyze transactions to addresses that are in our blocklist. In this blocklist, we add addresses that are transmitted by our partners (other exchanges and services) who are aware of the facts of fraud and theft, as well as from victims who come to us with a statement that their funds were stolen.
This sounds awfully arbitrary. Can you start by publishing your "blocklist", so customers can check if their addresses are on it before sending their funds to your exchange?

Of course, we will not publish the blocking list, since we do not cooperate with cryptocurrency scammers and thieves, we treat them extremely negatively and believe that they bring huge harm to the entire crypto community. Many of our employees have also been hacked and caught in fraud before, so we are well aware of how difficult it can be to recover lost funds.

If the funds are stolen or from the darkmarket, we do not recommend making exchanges on our service, since we do not support fraud in any form.
copper member
Activity: 279
Merit: 13
So all it takes to seize my funds is someone who victimizes and declares my address is owned by a criminal?

We cannot make a refund to the same address because the address is compromised. We are starting the refund procedure for the victim.
If I get my funds seized and I do not want to submit proof of origin of my funds.  What happens with the funds, do I get a refund?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Of course, we do not trust unfounded accusations of anyone, but we also cannot ignore incoming information. As we said earlier, each incident is considered individually and a full investigation is conducted. All evidence is carefully considered. We receive information about thefts and fraud from our partners (other exchanges and cryptocurrency services) and victims who contact us.

In order to continue the exchange or return the money, we must make sure that the funds were received honestly, as well as get all the information about the source of the funds received. If the client for some reason cannot provide us with information about the source of the funds received, then he can contact the law enforcement authorities of his country to initiate a criminal case, this will greatly simplify the process of dealing with the incident.

We do not request KYC, as we value the confidentiality of our customers, but only information about the source of the funds received. It is easy to prove the honesty of receiving funds by providing the requested data. If the user has nothing to do with the crime and did not know that the funds he received were criminal, then we have no reason to withhold these funds.
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 3098
We cannot make a refund to the same address because the address is compromised. We are starting the refund procedure for the victim.

so besides being an exchanger, you are also the police, prosecutor and judge. I wonder who gave you the licence for that.

can you present a successful example here where you confiscated dirty money and returned it to the victim? I mean example with all evidence.

We work all over the world, based in the Seychelles.

 Huh
this information is certainly reassuring and instils confidence in all your clients. at some point, you ask for all KYC information from the user, while we know nothing about you. it's a bit excessive for someone who presents himself as a judge, prosecutor, or exchanger...
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Who decides my address is bad and how?
The companies who earn money from selling their taint-detection-services of course! They're also the ones who have all financial interests in promoting the crazy idea that taint even exists, because without it, they'd be out of business.

We analyze transactions to addresses that are in our blocklist. In this blocklist, we add addresses that are transmitted by our partners (other exchanges and services) who are aware of the facts of fraud and theft, as well as from victims who come to us with a statement that their funds were stolen.
This sounds awfully arbitrary. Can you start by publishing your "blocklist", so customers can check if their addresses are on it before sending their funds to your exchange?
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1397
Yes, I'm an asshole
[...]In addition, we repeat once again that we never request the personal data of our customers, in order not to affect their anonymity, we only request information about the origin of funds, which is easy to provide[...]

[...]
We work all over the world, based in the Seychelles.

[...]

While others are curious about how do you know and decide that a fund coming into your platform acquired illegally or not --which, an interesting topic for me too, but since other members has asked about this, I won't repeat the question-- I am more interested on this topic.

Were you required by the govt. where you're basing your office on to ask about this? On my previous post about AML compliance, I do say that financial institutions on several countries are required to conduct KYC, but I have no awareness that the AML --or even ATF-- extend to such length for financial institutions.

Speaking for my own country --which will remain unspecified-- even centralized financial institutions are not allowed to ask for their customers to provide proof of funds origin. Asking where from and what for? Sure, they asked that, but their customer may just said whatever crossed their mind. "My goldfish died yesterday and inherited me 1 trillion dollars, which currently you're seeing right now. For what does the funds for? Well, I'd like to build shelters for homeless koi fish" and the bank would accepted that answer without asking their customer to provide the proof of... will... by the goldfish. The authority to ask for proof of fund's origin fall into the hand of the govt. themselves, specifically their tax and financial dept. upon investigation.

Recently I even learned that during a preliminary investigation of tax evasion and/or money laundering, the tax dept. --similar to IRS, I think-- staffs are not allowed to ask for the source of money too, let alone to ask the "suspect" to provide proof of source. They only allowed to ask for confirmation if the said person owned certain value and assets that they flagged and where from. It's until further investigation of AML and tax evasion that the person are obligated to provide the proof of sources and other articles asked. And I'm talking about the govt. themselves here, the one who held kinda "absolute" power. So how does a decentralized org. in your country required and given an authority to ask for the same is... beyond me.

But, I'm also aware and understand that different country applies different rules. Maybe IRS staff may asked what the tax staff in my country aren't allowed to. So, since you're stating that you're based in Sechyelles, could you point us to the regulation article specifically mentioning this matter? I'm sure we're one google away to verify that if you can help with the article number.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 1723
Crypto Swap Exchange
I don't know what origin of funds exactly means, but I am sure it includes some kind of customer personal information.
If this is so easy, can you also prove origin of all coins you own as a business, I am sure it's much easier for you to do this?
Can you please tell us what magical tools are you using that proves some coins are coming from hacks and stolen funds??
Calling B. S. on their statement and am going to put their Exchange on my own black list.  Wondering if they are going to avoid answering the questions again, as this is what it feels like reading their responses.  They earned good money from me so far but this stops here.

Origin of funds obviously is not Blockchain information.  And even that could be personal.

Let me explain my situation.  I have funds coming from Monero to Bitcoin through Bisq trades, and I obviously do not know where that money has been previously before arriving in my Bitcoin Wallet nor do I even care.  I do not own some of my Bisq seeds any more.  If I send my Bitcoin to Fixed Float and they see I received some Bitcoin that moved through 'blocklisted' addresses three transactions prior to mine, how is it fair that I get my funds seized?  How do I prove origin of funds?

Most of my Bitcoin, even I have no idea where they came from any more.  They are just there, legally obtained but ask me to prove the origin and I have no idea where to start.  Because they have been through too much history.  Do I deserve my funds to be taken away from me?

Like yes, we will seize your funds if our friends say your address is bad.  Who decides my address is bad and how?  Is it not just very easy to use this reason to seize a few dozen thousands just because someone told us it comes from bad origin?

As I stated in my other answer.  Seizing for 'bad origins' is mostly used to legally selectively scam customers.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG
hero member
Activity: 1694
Merit: 719
Top Crypto Casino
We analyze transactions to addresses that are in our blocklist. In this blocklist, we add addresses that are transmitted by our partners (other exchanges and services) who are aware of the facts of fraud and theft, as well as from victims who come to us with a statement that their funds were stolen.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

Do you actually block the address with someone's statement or verify some other information? It is also important to be 100% sure whether the complainant's funds have actually been stolen or not. I don't know how easy it is to analyze someone's transection so finely and I have no idea how high quality tools you use. It will be really interesting if you discuss in detail, so that crypto users can also be careful.
legendary
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In addition, we repeat once again that we never request the personal data of our customers, in order not to affect their anonymity, we only request information about the origin of funds, which is easy to provide
I don't know what origin of funds exactly means, but I am sure it includes some kind of customer personal information.
If this is so easy, can you also prove origin of all coins you own as a business, I am sure it's much easier for you to do this?
Can you please tell us what magical tools are you using that proves some coins are coming from hacks and stolen funds??

We cannot make a refund to the same address because the address is compromised. We are starting the refund procedure for the victim.
So is this customer limitless_777 also being refunded to other address or not?
hero member
Activity: 756
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Crypto Swap Exchange
So all it takes to seize my funds is someone who victimizes and declares my address is owned by a criminal?

We cannot make a refund to the same address because the address is compromised. We are starting the refund procedure for the victim.
If I get my funds seized and I do not want to submit proof of origin of my funds.  What happens with the funds, do I get a refund?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG
copper member
Activity: 279
Merit: 13
Regarding your screenshot, where two reviews are displayed, where we allegedly froze user funds for no reason - we all have evidence that user funds were obtained fraudulently. We never block our clients' funds without having a reason to do so. In both cases, an inspection was carried out both on our part and on the part of the monitoring to which we provided all the evidence for each of the incidents.

after you block suspicious funds, what do you do with them?
Do you keep it for yourself, return it to the same address where it came from or something else?

We cannot make a refund to the same address because the address is compromised. We are starting the refund procedure for the victim.

We are as loyal as possible to our customers, however, if there is information about specific crimes and the processing of orders related to these transactions, our service may be recognized as an accomplice in a crime and, as a result, be closed.

By placing an order on our website, they agreed to the rules of our service, which include a clause prohibiting the use of our service for any illegal purposes.

why can't I find any information about your company on your website?
Are you a legally registered exchanger or just use the possible loophole that limitless_777 mentioned here?

We work all over the world, based in the Seychelles.




an inspection was carried out both on our part and on the part of the monitoring to which we provided all the evidence for each of the incidents.
Are you actively working with Blockchain Analysis companies to analyze each and every transaction coming through your wallets?  How do you they work so quickly to give a final answer within a matter of minutes as to whether or not a transaction is related to crime?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

We analyze transactions to addresses that are in our blocklist. In this blocklist, we add addresses that are transmitted by our partners (other exchanges and services) who are aware of the facts of fraud and theft, as well as from victims who come to us with a statement that their funds were stolen.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 3098
Regarding your screenshot, where two reviews are displayed, where we allegedly froze user funds for no reason - we all have evidence that user funds were obtained fraudulently. We never block our clients' funds without having a reason to do so. In both cases, an inspection was carried out both on our part and on the part of the monitoring to which we provided all the evidence for each of the incidents.

after you block suspicious funds, what do you do with them?
Do you keep it for yourself, return it to the same address where it came from or something else?

We are as loyal as possible to our customers, however, if there is information about specific crimes and the processing of orders related to these transactions, our service may be recognized as an accomplice in a crime and, as a result, be closed.

By placing an order on our website, they agreed to the rules of our service, which include a clause prohibiting the use of our service for any illegal purposes.

why can't I find any information about your company on your website?
Are you a legally registered exchanger or just use the possible loophole that limitless_777 mentioned here?
hero member
Activity: 756
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Crypto Swap Exchange
Keep in mind I wrote all of this before Fixed Float replied.

I am not defending Fixed Float in any way and am strongly against the practice of selectively scamming clients by seizing funds for suspicion of money laundering.  Let us call it for what it is, seizing for this reason is most of the time used as a legal excuse for selective scamming.

On the other hand, if their Terms of Service mentions this then it is the customer's fault.

Interestingly, I moved tons of funds through some of these Exchanges and Fixed Float had the chance of freezing significant amounts from me before.  I successfully completed a few hundred transactions with them, using multiple identities.  They did not selectively scam me, although they had multiple chances.

I remember Fixed Float never had KYC or AML specified in their Terms.  Otherwise I am sure I would have not used it at all.

But truth is, most of these Exchanges have Anti Money Laundering procedures of some sort even if they are not mentioned and many of them seize your funds using the 'prohibited use' part of their Terms.  I have yet to see an Exchange mentioning they are NOT going to seize suspicious funds.

If they did specify an AML policy in their Terms, then I am stupid myself for missing that part and trusting them with significant amounts.  If they did not, then scam (AML excused seizing) it is in my opinion.  But this is Fixed Float with the evil, not Best Change.

I find it weird these two Fixed Float reviews were posted the same day.  Maybe they started seizing funds more often recently, and only now we are starting to find out.  Anyway.  I think Best Change should place a warning on the Fixed Float page about them selectively seizing funds but if they delete Fixed Float from their website, then Best Change can also close their business as it is very true AML and KYC is almost everywhere nowadays.  But I can not go from here to blaming and accusing Best Change for intentionally keeping and collaborating with scam Exchanges.

-----

an inspection was carried out both on our part and on the part of the monitoring to which we provided all the evidence for each of the incidents.
Are you actively working with Blockchain Analysis companies to analyze each and every transaction coming through your wallets?  How do you they work so quickly to give a final answer within a matter of minutes as to whether or not a transaction is related to crime?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG
copper member
Activity: 279
Merit: 13
We would like to clarify the situation with the accusations against us.

The "Terms of service" page in section 6 states that the service is prohibited from being used for any illegal purposes, and also, if fraudulent or stolen funds are sent to our addresses, the funds may be frozen until the source and legality of the funds are known. Freezing of funds is possible only if we have proof that the funds sent to our address were received as a result of fraud or theft.

Each case is considered individually. We rely only on the availability of reliable information from reputable services that are responsible for providing correct and up-to-date data, having strong evidence that can also be provided to an independent third party to participate in resolving the incident.

Regarding your screenshot, where two reviews are displayed, where we allegedly froze user funds for no reason - we all have evidence that user funds were obtained fraudulently. We never block our clients' funds without having a reason to do so. In both cases, an inspection was carried out both on our part and on the part of the monitoring to which we provided all the evidence for each of the incidents. In addition, we repeat once again that we never request the personal data of our customers, in order not to affect their anonymity, we only request information about the origin of funds, which is easy to provide



We are as loyal as possible to our customers, however, if there is information about specific crimes and the processing of orders related to these transactions, our service may be recognized as an accomplice in a crime and, as a result, be closed.

By placing an order on our website, they agreed to the rules of our service, which include a clause prohibiting the use of our service for any illegal purposes.
legendary
Activity: 2506
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Yes, I'm an asshole
Not trying to defending them or anything, especially since I'm not benefited from anything or related by any degree to them or even tried their platform once, which --I think-- is why my opinion leads leans to a more neutral side, but isn't saying them a scammer just because they failed to mention that an exchange required KYC is a tad bit overstatement?

I mean, sure, yeah, they get some money from users using their platform, and for that they ought to do at least certain degree of DD toward the exchanges they list on their platform, but ultimately it is also the users duty to perform their own DD. And it's not that difficult to get info if this exchange requires KYC or that exchange don't. Their FAQs usually covered this, or a simple reading of reviews from several sites

Don't get me wrong, I do love my anonymity. That's why the first thing I look for before signing up into a new exchange --not that I use a lot-- is their KYC and limitations for non verified users.

You might also want to edit this sentence and add a word "some",

Also please pay attention to the fact exchangers don't have any authority to perform any KYC procedures, collect client's personal info and ask for it. And of course they don't have any authority to block coins. Because exchangers aren't any kind of legal businesses. They are anonymous persons, not registered financial companies.

In many countries that tries to regulate crypto --more to control them, actually, but they choose a good political term-- an exchange needs to comply to their fintech regulations, where one of them mostly includes a compliance to KYC/AML. So yeah, they do have an "authority", they're kinda required by the country's rule. And again, let's say an exchange in R country called EB --these names is obscured by intention-- requested you for  KYC although that's not required by their country and, thus, they're not authorized to ask for it. How's that bestexchange's fault? You're kinda the one agreeing to it, EB is the one that asked you for it, but Bestexchange didn't force you to.

Edit: realizing I used a wrong word that I'm trying to say
newbie
Activity: 28
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I do not have any idea how Russian economy works. In a normal state you will need KYC and company registered if you want to run an online business that needs to accept payment and also to send money. The transactions have to be via the authorized bank or you will be convicted for money laundering.

Well now you know. For a Russian exchanger it's pretty easy to stay anonymous and run it's business. And almost all exchangers at Bestchange are Russian. All of them are gray. I mean, did you see any legal info of at least one of them on their websites? You won't find it if you try. So why do anonymous people demand ID photos, selfies and videos from users? Why do anonymous people block funds? This is unacceptable and unfair. They can't treat customers like that.

This is one of the many reason most of the crypto users like to stay anonymous. Who give a sh*t to some centralized agency to determine what you should and should not do.

I agree with most crypto users, I stay anonymous too. I'm just saying a normal centralized exchanger at least is a legit company and provides it's legal info. So it has a right to ask for KYC, review transactions and block funds. I don't like it and wouldn't use an exchanger like that but what it does is legitimate and fair. And if it's users like to pass KYC it's their decision. But in case of a gray exchanger it's different. Because it runs it's business anonymously so can't ask for KYC.
legendary
Activity: 2702
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Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o
OMG. You don't know how does it work in Russia. And these exchangers are Russian. Have you heard about darks? Have you heard about merchants registered to other person's name you can buy? Have you heard about Qiwi payment system? You can register there using darks and have a merchant (providing only physical person's passport number). Also you can have Qiwi virtual card and receive money from clients to this card. And almost all exchangers that provide exchanges from bank cards accept funds to Qiwi virtual cards.
I do not have any idea how Russian economy works. In a normal state you will need KYC and company registered if you want to run an online business that needs to accept payment and also to send money. The transactions have to be via the authorized bank or you will be convicted for money laundering.

This is one of the many reason most of the crypto users like to stay anonymous. Who give a sh*t to some centralized agency to determine what you should and should not do.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5
I wonder if it is even possible to provide this type of exchanger service without registering a company (of any kind, even if it was offshore).
To receive and send money you will need a merchant account and to get a merchant account you will need to be fully KYCed. In most cases (I have not seen any merchant yet) merchant requires company information to open an account with them.

for every fiat exchange, a bank is required. can the whole business be done as a physical person (no company) and do banks tolerate such things?
It's only possible when dealing with cash in person which is of course inconvenient considering the time we are in. No one is okay with cash in hand.

OMG. You don't know how does it work in Russia. And these exchangers are Russian. Have you heard about darks? Have you heard about merchants registered to other person's name you can buy? Have you heard about Qiwi payment system? You can register there using darks and have a merchant (providing only physical person's passport number). Also you can have Qiwi virtual card and receive money from clients to this card. And almost all exchangers that provide exchanges from bank cards accept funds to Qiwi virtual cards.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5
They don't update it because they don't want to.
They probably have financial benefit and percentage earning from listing all exchanges on their website, but they said in public that they can't guarantee anything, so there is always a risk using this exchanges.
I think you still have a chance to provide some documents (one way or another) and send them to this exchange, yes I know this sucks.

I wouldn't call it "sucks". Some anonymous guy demands your documents otherwise he keeps your money. Do you call this "sucks"? Really? I call it scam. Because these exchangers don't work legally. They are anonymous and work illegally but in the same time they demand docs from you and they freeze your money. They aren't police or any other authority to do this. So, if they can demand your docs, send me your docs too. I'm anonymous too, just like them. And I want to have your docs to sell somewhere (I mean, KYC, I want to know, who you are  Grin).

They don't update it because they don't want to.
I don't think so, and even if they wanted to keep everything perfect it would be impossible to make everyone happy in crazy world we live today, including kyc regulations.

Why do they put KYC icons near exchangers who deal with bank cards and don't put KYC icons near crypto exchangers? Could it be because crypto is way easier to "freeze" (I mean steal)?
legendary
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They don't update it because they don't want to.
I don't think so, and even if they wanted to keep everything perfect it would be impossible to make everyone happy in crazy world we live today, including kyc regulations.
They probably have financial benefit and percentage earning from listing all exchanges on their website, but they said in public that they can't guarantee anything, so there is always a risk using this exchanges.
I think you still have a chance to provide some documents (one way or another) and send them to this exchange, yes I know this sucks.
legendary
Activity: 2702
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Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o
I wonder if it is even possible to provide this type of exchanger service without registering a company (of any kind, even if it was offshore).
To receive and send money you will need a merchant account and to get a merchant account you will need to be fully KYCed. In most cases (I have not seen any merchant yet) merchant requires company information to open an account with them.

for every fiat exchange, a bank is required. can the whole business be done as a physical person (no company) and do banks tolerate such things?
It's only possible when dealing with cash in person which is of course inconvenient considering the time we are in. No one is okay with cash in hand.
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 3098
Please show me legal info from at least one of the exchangers. You won't find it on their websites. So it's completely different. They aren't legal registered companies, they work anonymously. So they don't have authority to ask for KYC.
From what I've seen in similar cases, many of those exchangers don't own any funds. They use third parties (such as Binance) to process transactions, and if that third party freezes funds, they do the same. The use of third parties isn't explained on their website, they pretend to have their own funds.

I'm okay with fully registered exchanges that require full KYC. I'm also okay with completely anonymous exchanges that don't ask anything.
What's not okay, is anonymous exchanges that ask for personal documents. They can easily use it for identity theft, and you have no idea who they are.

I wonder if it is even possible to provide this type of exchanger service without registering a company (of any kind, even if it was offshore).
for every fiat exchange, a bank is required. can the whole business be done as a physical person (no company) and do banks tolerate such things?
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5
I wouldn't blame everything on BestChange, but I wrote about their terrible review system multiple times and I demanded improvement and update.

They don't update it because they don't want to. I know people who use Bestchange for years without knowing if there is only a green number showing good reviews it doesn't mean there aren't bad ones, you just don't see it. Many people believe if only the number of good reviews is shown so there aren't any other. The update of the review system isn't difficult to implement. It's a few database queries and can take 30 mins maximum to develop.

If exchange is using third party exchange they need to publicly show this and say they can freeze your coins at any time, otherwise I wouldn't use this exchange at all.

I think the same, exchangers must publicly show they use third party.
But even in this case an exchanger can't demand your personal data and can't freeze your coins. In this case an exchanger should give you contacts of that third party and that third party must be a legal company with an authority to check documents and freeze coins. I mean, anyway an exchanger can't freeze you funds by itself. And now some of them freeze your funds despite their third party didn't freeze anything. Sometimes they do it "just in case" because their third party exchanger may freeze coins received from you a few days later. At least this is the reason they give you. I read about it on other forum.
legendary
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I wouldn't blame everything on BestChange, but I wrote about their terrible review system multiple times and I demanded improvement and update.
It's interesting that not long ago before you created this topic I asked BestChange about this KYC icons and if they can guarantee that exchange won't ask for verification, they replied NO, they can't guarantee that information is correct.
If exchange is using third party exchange they need to publicly show this and say they can freeze your coins at any time, otherwise I wouldn't use this exchange at all.

What's not okay, is anonymous exchanges that ask for personal documents. They can easily use it for identity theft, and you have no idea who they are.
I totally agree with you, and I would rather use exchanges from list provided by kycnot.me website.
I heard nice things about eXch (they don't use any third party, and they claim to have their own reserves of coins and can prove that), but I never used it so I can't claim how good or bad it is.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5

I'm okay with fully registered exchanges that require full KYC. I'm also okay with completely anonymous exchanges that don't ask anything.
What's not okay, is anonymous exchanges that ask for personal documents. They can easily use it for identity theft, and you have no idea who they are.


You speak my mind. Unfortunately the majority of people don't pay attention to this and don't think about how unfair it is when someone who is anonymous asks you for your documents.

Also: there is no such thing as "dirty" Bitcoin. See

Many people don't understand this. They think if Binance said there is such thing as "dirty" bitcoin this is so. But Binance isn't some kind of bitcoin god and it doesn't determine what we should concider our bitcoins to be.
legendary
Activity: 3290
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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Please show me legal info from at least one of the exchangers. You won't find it on their websites. So it's completely different. They aren't legal registered companies, they work anonymously. So they don't have authority to ask for KYC.
From what I've seen in similar cases, many of those exchangers don't own any funds. They use third parties (such as Binance) to process transactions, and if that third party freezes funds, they do the same. The use of third parties isn't explained on their website, they pretend to have their own funds.

I'm okay with fully registered exchanges that require full KYC. I'm also okay with completely anonymous exchanges that don't ask anything.
What's not okay, is anonymous exchanges that ask for personal documents. They can easily use it for identity theft, and you have no idea who they are.



Also: there is no such thing as "dirty" Bitcoin. See [Blacklist] of unreliable, 'taint proclaiming' Bitcoin services / exchanges:
I've seen several posts lately from people willing to treat Bitcoin as non-fungible because they believe some coins are "tainted".
I'd say this is a severe threat to Bitcoin, and I wouldn't be surprised if governments use this because they can't stop Bitcoin in any other way. If people believe Bitcoin is "tainted", they won't accept it anymore. "We" should really inform people not to fall for this.
Nobody would reject a dollar bill because it has previously been used in a crime, despite the fact that 85 to 90% contains traces of cocaine. Claiming Bitcoin isn't fungible is just plain stupid.

Here's a few examples:
Today netex24 exchanger sent me tainted btc.
What's that? Are you saying Bitcoin isn't fungible?

service which i wanted to top up blocked my account.
The solution is simple: don't use services that tell you your Bitcoin is different than another Bitcoin.

I don’t tell that i will return btc. We can trace it. We can mark it.
Bitcoin is fungible. Stop trying to convince people it's not, and stop using services that treat Bitcoin as if it's not fungible.
Lmao you have no glue what are you talking about. Please stop spam in my tread if you don’t know anything about chainanalys, thx

BestChange.com should be added to this list. Even though they're not an exchange, and even though I've used them, they seem to think not all Bitcoins are equal:
Don’t you think exchangers that do not follow AML should be excluded from your site? Or at least marked as untrustworthy.
Today netex24 exchanger sent me tainted btc. And obviously service which i wanted to top up blocked my account.
I checked transaction via AML bot:
 
Risk Score: 50% Medium risk transaction
Medium risk
Exchange ML Risk Veryhigh - 100%
@rokuen
Thank you for the signal, we will certainly investigate the matter to find out all the details and if necessary, will take measures to prevent this in the future. The exchanger you named is one of the largest on over-the-counter and such appeals are the matter of exception.

In any case, your situation requires our involvement. We will certainly get in touch with the service representatives to find out the technical details of your transaction and offer them to change the counterparty, if necessary, if they use some compromised custodial service to store bitcoin.

In line with this, I am interested to know if the BestChange company subscribes to the idea that there are clean and dirty Bitcoins. I mean, yes, there are probably a lot of crimes in which Bitcoins are involved as there are countless others which involve fiat, but do you think that Bitcoins involved in these crimes are tainted and are therefore dirty and shouldn't be accepted by different Bitcoin platforms?
This is not so much our moral position, but the forced adherence to generally accepted norms. Regardless of our or anyone else's opinion, AML purity for cryptocurrency transactions has become as important a property as it is for fiat currencies. Most crypto transactions end up in centralized custodial services that adhere to standard rules for the entire global market, in particular, the fifth AML directive of the European Union (5AMLD). Therefore, in a sense, the widespread introduction of AML made BTC an analogue of NFT of the ERC-1155 standard Smiley



This site explains very well what it's all about:
Coin validation proposed to offer as a service to trace coins and try to give you a rating about how the history of the coin from your point of view and to offer that as a service to businesses. I think this could be quite dangerous because it goes back to that 17th century court case where now you could receive a coin that is perfectly valid at the time that you receive it, but a few weeks later a crime is uncovered and now your coin is tainted. So if this coin validation service is advicing many of the merchants where you would want to spend your coin at, it's tainted and now the merchant would refuse to accept your coin. That's a strange experience for you; you're holding a coin that you might have to sell at a discount to get rid of it. The aggregate effect of this might create a run on the bitcoin price. So it reopens this long-set legal principle that currency or currency units are all equal.
I can't stress enough how important this is!
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5
That will be in Russia. You're not going to tell me that Binance or Coinbase are not legal are you?

As far as I remember in the other thread what you are describing already happened. A Russian exchange of which it is difficult to find data or any license, demanding KYC, or else they block coins. At the very least it seems morally questionable, and would not be legal in the EU or USA.

Why are you comparing Binance with exchangers from Bestchange? Binance is a legal registered company. Please show me legal info from at least one of the exchangers. You won't find it on their websites. So it's completely different. They aren't legal registered companies, they work anonymously. So they don't have authority to ask for KYC. And Binance has authority to do this. I don't like what Binance is doing and I think it's inappropriate but they have authority. And what exchangers are doing is illegal in Russia too, not only in the EU and USA.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1888
Best Change defended the business practices quite well the last time there was a similar thread, let's see what he says this time.

Also please pay attention to the fact exchangers don't have any authority to perform any KYC procedures, collect client's personal info and ask for it. And of course they don't have any authority to block coins. Because exchangers aren't any kind of legal businesses. They are anonymous persons, not registered financial companies.

That will be in Russia. You're not going to tell me that Binance or Coinbase are not legal are you?

As far as I remember in the other thread what you are describing already happened. A Russian exchange of which it is difficult to find data or any license, demanding KYC, or else they block coins. At the very least it seems morally questionable, and would not be legal in the EU or USA.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5
Quoting for images:


Thanks Smiley I corrected horrible errors in the start post. So now this one has images and the start one has less errors  Grin
legendary
Activity: 3290
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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5
Hi everyone!

Recently I have noticed one problem on Bestchange and I want to share it with you because I think it's important. I was shocked when noticed this. First I created a topic on the Russian forum, so now I'll translate it here. Sorry for my English, it's not my native language.

So I noticed many exchangers started to have KYC / AML that is completely inappropriate when dealing with crypto. When you start an exchange after sending your coins to an exchanger it may say "your coins are dirty, you must pass KYC". Before if a client refused to pass KYC exchangers returned his coins to a wallet they were sent from. But now exchangers became completely impudent. In many of them appeared a new rule saying they can block your coins for indefinite term. So according to their new rules now they have a right to scam you and just take your coins if they want to. They even don't put this rule about blocking on pages where you make an exchange, you can see it only if you open their rules page and read it carefully.

Also please pay attention to the fact exchangers don't have any authority to perform any KYC procedures, collect client's personal info and ask for it. And of course they don't have any authority to block coins. Because exchangers aren't any kind of legal businesses. They are anonymous persons, not registered financial companies. But they don't want you to be anonymous. So according to them you must send your pesonal info to some noname who don't guarantee you anything and may sell your info everywhere. They think it's ok but it's not.

Also there are exchangers that don't have any AML policy on their website but they block your coins despite of that. For example, https://fixedfloat.com. Look at this:

https://i.postimg.cc/Y986X6qc/1.png

There are 2 reviews on the screenshot. You can read the English one. The Russian one says they stole coins saying they are "blocked because of AML". They refuse to return the coins. During the conversation FixedFloat's admin was repeating the same thing about AML and in the end Bestchange's admin just closed the dispute and made it gray despite Alex didn't receive his coins and kept asking Bestchange's admin to keep the dispute opened and of red color. You can find both reviews here: https://www.bestchange.ru/fixedfloat-exchanger.html. You can read full conversations, you can use Google Translate to translate the Russian one. The English one already became gray and there isn't any reply saying the dispute starter received his coins. And also there are  many other reviews like these 2 on the FixedFloat's page at Bestchange. So this kind of scam is something permanent there and Bestchange's admin keeps FixedFloat and just closes disputes while people don't get any refunds.

Here is another example, EasyBit exchanger:

https://i.postimg.cc/6QT0TzNj/2.png

This exchanger makes a refund if you refuse to pass KYC. But anyway, they tell you about KYC after you send your coins, not before. So it's a time wasting and hassle. You send your coins without knowing about KYC, EasyBit doesn't have chat so you must reach their support, you may start a dispute on Bestchange etc.  It takes hours to return your own money back. EasyBit has only positive reviews on Bestchange but if you open their page at the rating https://www.bestchange.ru/easybit-exchanger.html you'll see how many gray ones it has. And all the gray ones are about KYC.

Also EasyBit's rules state they can 1. scam you (have right to block crypto you sent them), 2. ask you for a verification as many times as they want without any reason.

There are many exchangers like these 2 on Bestchange. I just provided 2 examples here. All the exchangers like these 2 don't have icons showing they may ask for your personal info if you find them in the exchanger's list on Bestchange. Bestchange shows they don't ask for any verification so people believe it and use exchangers like this. Look at this, no icons:

https://i.postimg.cc/5NSdm9Fc/6.png

And here is the example of such icons near exchanger's names when you see the list of exchangers who make exchanges from bank cards:

https://i.postimg.cc/0QP7Dfg1/7.png

So why is that? When you want to exchange money from your card you can see in the list an exchanger will ask for your personal info. But when you want to exchange your crypto you don't see this.

People start to exchange crypto without having in mind there is a probability of being asked for KYC and without knowing the exchanger has AML. Many people just don't expect this when dealing with crypto (like it should be). And as I said in the start of this topic many exchangers have link to this info at the bottom part of their websites. Nobody looks there so nobody reads it.

I sent an email to Bestchange's admin and said he must put the icons near crypto exchanger's names and he must remove scammer exchangers which "block" client's crypto. Because if an exchanger doesn't want someone's coins and thinks they are dirty it must return the coins to the client and that's all. All the "blocks" are just scam. But Bestchange's admin refused to put icons saying "AML is everywhere anyway and if some exchangers don't have it they just work bad because they should have it". Well, it's a very weak excuse. Because then why do exchangers who deal with bank cards have such icons? Also AML is not everywhere, that's a lie, especially when dealing with crypto. Also he didn't delete scammer exchangers. So Bestchange's admin knows very well what is happening, he keeps scammer exchangers. He closes disputes when coins are stolen "because of AML". And he doesn't inform people an exchager has any KYC knowingly. If people knew that they wouldn't choose that exchanger, so the exchanger couldn't "block" their coins. The only reason Bestchange's admin misinform people is that he has profit share from scammer exchangers. I think he collaborates with them because I just don't see any other reason not to inform people about KYC by putting "exchanger asks for personal info" icon. I have emails from him and can forward to prove I didn't invent anything. Here are some screenshots from my mailbox, so you can see my email and if I forward the emails you can compare text:

https://i.postimg.cc/LskhjgFc/8.png
https://i.postimg.cc/G27Ljk75/9.png

Instead of passing an inappropriate KYC / AML I propose to share this info everywhere. Let's inform people. And let's report to Bestchange's hoster, domain registrator, maybe to antiviruses. Same thing for exchangers who ask for personal data and steal coins. Also I think we must help exchangers to comply with laws. They want it so badly. So let's report to the tax department and authorities (the pay taxex and work legally if they want clients to comply with laws, aren't they?). Because in fact what are we having here is illegal personal data collection (and maybe selling) and illegal coins "blocking". So, they love police, they say they can report clients to the police in their rules, let's help them meet with police loved so much by them. I'll post links to Russian authorities soon.

I think community should act. We can't just ignore such things. If we just keep observing and being passive about that in a few years having crypto will become just like having money in your bank account - when your money in fact isn't yours and any official or clerk can block it anytime. We shouldn't accept and allow practices like KYC and AML with crypto. Or we'll find ourselves in this situation soon:

https://i.postimg.cc/ryJb3ng3/1519768859.jpg

Yes, we already are in this situation but partially. Especially when we choose crypto instead of banks. So let's don't lose this piece of liberty.
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