Topic: Betcoindice.tm Untrustworthy: Fakes volume, makes house bets on blockchain. (Read 7771 times)

Chinese Government officials  

I have to read up some more on it but from what I understand since the seed is created server side and since most dice sites use "investors" the players betting may be "provably fair" but an insider is still able to cheat so it won't be fair for all.

Perhaps producing fake/low quality things is normal to the Betcoin company. I mean, who hasn't seen Made in China crap/knockoffs? (of course, there is still good quality things from china)

I've not been to bitzino since Just-Dice launched.  Not had the time.

Got a link to the post about this one not being provably fair?

You must really love bitzino...   At any rate, yea this one's not provably fair as I posted in the other thread, and would stay away.

Ahahahahahaha have a listen

I don't think you understand provable fairness.  It doesn't tell you anything about the overall house performance.  All it tells you is that your own bet was fairly processed.  That's pretty much the opposite of what you claim.

Look at bitzino.com.  I have no idea how much they've taken in bets, or how much they've paid out.  They don't (to my knowledge) publish that information.  But when I play there, whether I win or lose, I am sure that the bet was handled fairly due to the way that all their games are provably fair.

That's kind of clever!

..but easy to detect I guess.

Just saw something odd on blockchain.info , might have to do with it. Was just checking it out when suddenly, "recent transactions" had a MASSIVE spam of 0.28-0.48 BTC sends to betcoindice (I couldn't read the amount in time)

sure this practice might be used to some degree, but the issue here is the scale of it:
about 20-30% of all bitcoin transactions are fake bets by betcoindice.tm

This is a common business practice! my god people business want to appear busy! I have been given free play at the casino when the floor was empty, it looks bad when no one is playing. I have had club owners ask me and my buddies to come by for free drinks just so it looks like it is a cool place.

I see no problem at all. I understand the QT issue but if anything ever becomes of bitcoin the blockchain is gonna get long deal with it.

 Betcoindice.tm Untrustworthy,really?

fake volume appears to be fake volume I would agree but what harm is done?

The fake volume is not an assumption, the evidence is there.

I think your on to something here and have defended betcoin since the beginning. I like the guy don't get me wrong even choose them for a small loan recently but I don't like what I see here either.

I agree that copying content or clone games is unethical.

But the rest of the allegations (DDos, fake volume) are based on assumptions trying to discredit a website simply to protect your interests.

And I say this despite having lost more than 50 coins in betcoincircle (Although I lost more in satoshidice  )

Relevant: 
http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/1489274

More:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/betcoin-fraud-this-is-just-getting-ridiculous-301581

 

No comment on other accusations?

Now that's massive LOL and Whaa???

@TradeFortress:

Here's the "rude" email we sent to you three days ago:
#####
From: BetCoin™ <[email protected]>
Subject: Couldn't PM you.
Date: September 22, 2013 12:28:43 PM GMT+01:00
To: [email protected]

Dear TradeFortress,

Thank you for your insightful research and comments.  We tried to send you a PM, but you apparently blocked our account. Unfortunately most of our personnel are preoccupied with other important tasks at this moment, and we are not in the position to dedicate manpower to immediately answer your concerns. Should this situation change in the future - we will promptly inform you.

Kind regards,

BetCoin™
#####

As we mentioned earlier, our entire team is preoccupied with a series of meetings with senior Chinese Government officials, finalizing our newly-opened Supercomputer Center setup, and your concerns are not our top priority at this point in time. The issues that you brought up are not for the low-level technical and maintenance staff to address, but we will definitely look into this when when we have the time. In the meanwhile you can contact our support at [email protected] if you experience any difficulties using our websites, or have any questions regarding your own specific bets.

Best regards,

BetCoin™

blockchain spam is healthy it will help bring up the tx fees and make mining more profitable, the increase of difficulty making mining not so profitable which might hurt the miners, tx fees will help mininers recoup profits and thus helping bitcoin stay alive and secure, and decentralized,

betcoin is a great company, you cannot prove it was them ddossing, anyone can ddos, i really doubt they would ddoss there competetion, they are great at what they do, theres no reason for them to hurt there competition, theeres plenty of space for more companies to open up, as long as they are legit and fair and honest and trustworthy reliable polite and professional they will have customers,
and betcoin definetly fits those roles... so they will have customers theres no reason for them to hurt other businesses, they are fine without doing that...

elazar

You guys keep bringing up all these OTHER issues.  If they are ddos that's bad but not the topic here.  @gollum you bring up vegas casinos.  They do plenty of free give aways that do exactly what you claim is unethical.  That is have people in there that aren't gambling to make the place look busy.  They pump in pure oxygen and use other visual and aeromatic stimulus to keep you excited.  They get you drunk in order to impare your judgement.  So what can be considered a physical invasion of my body is ethical to you but a site that spams the blockchain as a form of indirect advertising isn't?  @001sonkit coke puts plenty of chemicals into it's drinks to get you hooked but I don't see how blockchain spam is equivalent to delivering stuff to your front door which by the way 100s of companies do and it's called direct mail advertising.  With blockchain spam you don't need to do anything to clean it up.  In fact you can just ignore it.  Also I don't get it 1st you say you don't want lots of transactions then you say bitcoin will be more popular and there will be more transactions.    Blockchain spam is a whole other issue.  For example I think it's silly to try to adapt bitcoin to use for micro payments like your morning coffee when there are plenty of other methods that do a great job already but I'm not for centralized decision making about it since it defeats the whole purpose of bitcoin.  TF has taken upon himself a thankless and never-ending job of pointing out scams.  It's admirable but I've yet to see anyone offer a good rebuttal to my point that self caused blockchain spam as a form of advertising is somehow unethical.

It is just you not using BitcoinQT, think in other people's shoes. TF has been a good watchout for potential harm to Bitcoin. And this is certainly one (not to mention ripple here, offtopic).

Not only dealing with this particular company with chain-spamming (and competitor site DDosing, incl SatoshiDice, Satoshi Circle, PrimeDice, inputs.io, peerbet and just-dice). The Bitcoin itself have to think of how to deal with these kind of thing in future when Bitcoin is more popular with more transation (and assholes who do things for their own sake without thinking about other's)

If this is ethical. These above should happen to you and you will know what is ethical. Having everyone hard drive filled with shit data and taking out others service is surely ethical.

EDIT: If TF is a hater, he would either have a stong conflict of interest (for example he owns a casino), have shown good history of pissing on others' post without solid claim. Only facts matter, and TF is surely opening a post with matter but not pointing fingers like a hater saying something is a crap.

He's not faking the bet outcome (win/lose) AFAIK, so it won't look like a lot of people is winning, just a lot of people playing.

If a bitcoin site aspires to become the no.1 gaming site, it should lead by example.
Instead Massive Luck Investments are doing the worst possible thing you can do to bitcoin:
-spamming with lot of nonsense.
-faking bets. imagine employees at Caesars Palace in Vegas playing fake games to give the impression that there are many customers and lot of people winning. Would it be acceptable?

This is not unethical.

Like the man said if they pay their fees they can do what ever transactions they like.

Personally I think it is smart and the OP is a hater.

If coke do advert it is fine. But when coke deliver a box of it to every household door step where they didnt order it they have to move it away or whatever. It is about the ethics of advert. It is acceptable you step on your other competitors. But when you add poision in other soft drink factory sugar source. And how you advertise it is widely causing negative impact on others. This is the issue.
Hope this is not to vague for you to read

Correct Horse Battery Staple
http://blockchain.info/address/1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T

In some restaurants there are more mice than customers

There are good restaurants and there are bad restaurants. When you see there are mice in a restaurant's kitchen, you don't go to eat there.

Even with all the fake bets (I'm not claiming it to be true), they must be doing some crazy profit to pay for all the advertising.

I'm pretty sure DDoSing all of their competition and detractors is enough reason.

betcoin.tm is a great site, i don't understand what you are accusing them of? promoting there own site? nothing wrong with that,
and why would u accuse them anyone could be betting there...

plus they are reliable and trustworthy and very polite and very professional,
i have got payed out plenty of times from them, almost instantly,

ive said this before in other places, but i dont really understand why do you have something against them? are you competition so you trying to put them down?

they never put there comptetition down, if anything just just pick themselves up higher then others, and that makes them greater, they dont put others down to make themselves greater...

why do you have something against them? what did they ever do to you?

well i still trust them i know there a good site, there customer support is great too! never had any problems with them or there games or there support... dont know what your problem is

I wonder if this whole discussion points to a new issue in bitcoin. Several sources have pointed out that China's use of bitcoin is heavily growing. Behind the US, no other country has been downloading bitcoin-qt more.

I think its likely that a large portion of the Chinese bitcoin users will participate in a somewhat closed, internal economy, since it seems that English is the language of choice for most Bitcoiners. There could be a growing information gap in the Bitcoin community.

All of that, to say this: I doubt that telling foreign users to stop using Betcoin is going to damage their business much. Most of their business is probably from this "internal" economy.

Sorry, it just seemed that way.  I don't think it matters though.  As long as they pay miner fees they got a right to it just like you or me.  As far as them tricking their customers that's between them and all business do that to some extent through marketing but like I said its good that there are people in the community able to trace that down in the blockchain and those interested can see the evidence for themselves which is the beauty of bitcoin.

I'm not referring to you and I haven't assumed you're a shill. I'm making a general statement about if one site uses scripts to artificially inflate their betting volume, they should own up to it.

Who?  Me?  ROFL You think I'm shilling for them or something?  Hey I'm glad someone does blockchain tracing and figures this stuff out but I could care less.  Plenty of other interesting bitcoin stuff then to worry about some gambling site.  Most of them I'm sure are a scam anyways.  The whole "provably fair" only proves % going in and out it doesn't mean their own plants aren't the only ones winning.  The more wealth/fiat they are willing to sink into btc the better for my holdings.

Sure, own up to the fact that 95% of your "bitcoins won" and "recent bets" and "big wins" are from your own.

Why?  Wasn't bitcoin created to not be controlled by some central decision maker as to who should use it?  Pay the fee get your trans mined.  Not to mention the only reason this is pissing people of is because another private biz ie blockchain.info posts the transaction wall as their own sort of marketing don't they?  The miners are about to be so screwed with overpaying for asics maybe they'll raise trans fees and problem solved.

There's a difference between users spamming the blocchain and the house spamming the blockchain themselves.

Sorry, I don't get the joke. Are you referring to this? http://xkcd.com/936/

I think that's a different discussion if you are talking about blockchain spam.  Wasn't some other dice gambling accused of spamming the blockchain before?  Or is one company ok to spam blockchain but not another.  Who's supposed to decide?  That's an issue of miner fees and has nothing to do with unethical marketing.

They don't go and buy 99% of the cokes sold in 7-11 and Walmart themselves and They don't spam the banking system

So when Coca-Cola advertisements make it seem like the whole world drinks Coke they must be unethical.  Got ya.

I came to the same conclusion one week before, so I guess there is something fishy going on since Im not alone...
there's no smoke without fire


It is false marketing to give the impression of a huge client base so you can attract clients.
How can a new satoshi clone that no one knew of until a few weeks ago have MORE activity than the original Satoshi Dice?
The only conclusion is: most of the bets are fake, placed by scripts &  run by the owners of the site.

It's not only unethical to the clients AND to competitors to have false marketing but it is also unethical to spam the blockchain with fake bets every second.

It is called "Projection".    Same scheme as coinchat.

That's retarded reasoning.  You do realize that miners get a fee for including transactions in a block and they can refuse transactions that don't have a fee.

correct horse battery staple (whatever it's order, you know that shit)

I can send a bunch of transactions to myself. Would I be hated in the same way if I did that?

What if I was using a mixing service (i.e inputs.io), where 1 transaction could be multiplied into 5, 10, or more?

This is a pretty strong argument for this practice being unethical. I think a lot of businesses will simulate extra business, like a real Casino playing ambient noise of coins being spewed out or even Starbucks grinding coffee in their stores in the morning to "seed" the smell of fresh coffee, but those are usually at their own cost. This actually uses network and hard disk capacity across the public network, negatively impacting the community.

So @betcoin: STAHP it!

Worst part is that people click Bullshit. Dont ask, it works

No offense, but your signature sure does have a lot of BS in it.

You too can help tell everyone the evilness of this company.


Shall I call it a free stress test for a brighter future?

You are welcome to mail me and DDOS my server. Those are just coins out of your pocket. I have no loss. Consider opening your own DDOSing company to legitimize yourself.

They're more interested in sending rude email replies and seeing a DDoS 30 minutes later.

Why can't the owner of Betcoin.tm post here explaining his reasoning behind this?

Would definitely be worth while to at least attempt to amend their wrong doing & at least explain lol

Why?  Even assuming it's true which obviously can't be 100% proven from what you've shown it's only dishonest if they deny it.  As far as untrustworthy that applies to all of these gambling sites where there is no way to tell how they pick winners.  I'm not sure how you think ethics come into play here but if you believe they are unethical what does that make the forum that accept advertising from them?

Thanks for pointing this out. I also noticed that they came out of nowhere and getting heavy action since the beginning, but I didn't think twice about it.

I guess I have to change my sig a bit Satoshidice is not the only criminal

Bump.

Then it is still extra bits for some with a 56k connection guys to download.... although they can switch to inputs.io

It's OK, ultraprune is coming..

I think this rule applies to all intelligent conversations anywhere in the world

Can this be a forum-wide rule?

pinballcoin does this same thing

plus satoshicircle

It's pretty much a clone of Satoshidice, so it would not be surprising to see that they've faked other things such as volume.

At least they appear to be paying out bets for now.

Thanks Tf for pointing out the issue that I have doubted along. I have been some time since betcointm is out. Those floating transaction is quite mysterious as the frequency is similar to the freq of SD. meanwhile this is seen before the ad was bought in bitcointalk. Plus AFAIK it also optimize for Chinese user with Chinese interface. But there aren't ads on there either. This unveiling finally gives me a full pic on wtf is really happening.

Betcointm. This is my comment. If you think that this method is ethical for you to do your work in Bitcoin. And it is ethical and responsible for you to also copy everything out there and attempt to start a new business out of it with a copied from ground up script interface etc. you really shall not be a bitcoiner.

Ps. Think about gigabytes of desktop hard disk space across the world have been wasted just by your irresponsible action to start this unethical business.

Purely testing high volume transactions isn't something you'd do continuously, as you're paying substantial TX fees.

There's no 'people' script betting - there is one person. Nearly all bets on Betcoindice can be traced back to one script.


I block forum PMs, if you'd like to contact send me an email!

Trade, you didn't have to block my messages..lol

I hope you didn't take that me attacking you...Although it did seem like it, it wasn't my intention too.
Just wanted to share my experience I've had there so far.

what about testing high volume transactions / people scrypt betting

If you're a programmer you know that you don't need to test 64,000 times to verify it does payout. They're certainly using the same code for 97% as 0.001%, just with a different variable.

There is no legitimate excuse to botting this amount of bets. If Peter Nolan disagrees, he's welcome to explain.

I disagree. I believe that is unethical, dishonest and indicates untrustworthy behavior.

what I am saying is fact if the odds of wining a bet are 2,000-1 statistically speaking you would need 2,000 bets to win it might take 1 bet it might take 4,000 but it would be irresponsible of them to open a website that has not been tested with a high volume of transactions


I have just looked on there site and the highest multiplier is 64,000 so if they were testing that one until they win it could take a lot ore that 64k bets to win it

you will never really know what they are doing unless they tell you
 

I don't get what your trying to get at or what the problem is?

I actually done very well playing there on good days. Support (Peter) is always quick on issues that I have had and been
taking care of. If what your saying is true I don't see what the big deal is. If creating fake traffic brings in customers and he pays
all winning bets, more power to him. BTC gambling sites are starting to pop-up every where and if that gives them the edge to bring more players then it's better than paying for advertising. Or maybe he just likes to move his big bank roll around when he gets bored..heh

The site is legit, I've cashed out large amounts this month and it's been paid on every cashout with a 2min wait before hitting my wallet.

The place is always my first stop whenever I got some spare change to waste.

Unless  I'm missing something?

No.

In the future please don't comment on matters you don't understand.

if they are testing each bet to make sure when it wins it pays out and there is a bet that is 20,000-1 that could be over 20,000 bets just to test that 1 bet

( not sure what the odds on there bets are as I haven't been on the site )

Yeh a sneaky 10,000 bets a day testing.

There's a testnet for a reason

No... Go to blockchain.info (One of, if not the most popular Bitcoin related site). Now look on the front page, one of the first things that grab your attention is the recent transactions (Since it's moving and shit). Now you'll see that every few seconds a "Bitcoindice" or w.e address comes up. This is essentially a continuous advertisement on the biggest Bitcoin website. Not only is it an advertisement, it is an indirect advertisement (The best types), people think that Betcoin.tm is legit since other people are using it, they're not claiming anything themselves; they're letting others make the claims for them.

To the average user, they will now assume that Betcoin.tm is a great place to bet Bitcoins.

have you not considered that could have been testing the website ?

Are you making the assumption they are jamming up block-chain to stop results from being submitted to other competitors? Your right maybe I do need to read up on this and apologize for jumping in. I just don't believe the fact this gentleman or company would be involved in dirty business.

I suggest reading the OP and looking up the addresses I mentioned before responding. The founder of course isn't manually betting, but rather it's an automated script to get on the frontpage of blockchain.info and create the impression that it is legitimate from it's "popularity".

What is the purpose of doing such? I would assume to "Appear busy" ? I guess I don't understand the reasoning behind such claim. The founder would surely not waste his time making .03 bets all day and we all are aware of the muscle flexing they have done this past month advertising. Makes no sense considering everyone is clearly aware of the "deep and secure pockets" they hold.

Creating the illusion that people are playing on Betcoindice.tm when it is just them making bets themselves. Take a look at the addresses that received 0.03 BTC.

Would you elaborate for guest and I exactly what your accusing BetcoinTM of doing?

I've been quite puzzled from the fact that betcoindice.tm, a newly created and unknown dice/spin the wheel site, is getting so many transactions as observed on the homepage of Blockchain.info. Here's the results from blockchain digging.

16wnSLn1BxLAsLZi8weuLh4cdR19bsXRkP
Funds ~100 addresses with 0.03 BTC each. Change address to 12UZKZWpwLrywA159Rf3beRPb2zzPvyE2M

12UZKZWpwLrywA159Rf3beRPb2zzPvyE2M
Funds ~100 addresses with 0.03 BTC each. Change address to 1BPCo6aqB37ta3yMvU8jX754959CeGk9Ae

1BPCo6aqB37ta3yMvU8jX754959CeGk9Ae
Funds ~100 addresses with 0.03 BTC each. Change address to 15K7z2h1rPM486RodM4PamPme27AQaEy3g

15K7z2h1rPM486RodM4PamPme27AQaEy3g
Funds ~100 addresses with 0.03 BTC each. Change address to 12rTLxT8GomYxddhezC7gWHqh4z6meGDtp

12rTLxT8GomYxddhezC7gWHqh4z6meGDtp
Funds ~100 addresses with 0.03 BTC each. Change address to 19aWcx5xZLjk8wM8zMyserbLGc6sCg7rYG

19aWcx5xZLjk8wM8zMyserbLGc6sCg7rYG
Funds ~100 addresses with 0.03 BTC each. Change address to (with only 0.16 BTC leftover) 1JE3eWVUxd8Co8QWTgdGcAXDKGidKH4uFg

1JE3eWVUxd8Co8QWTgdGcAXDKGidKH4uFg
Funds ~100 addresses with 0.03 BTC each along with inputs from 16wnSLn1BxLAsLZi8weuLh4cdR19bsXRkP

What are the thousands of funded addresses being used for?
Continuously betting on Betcoindice.

Pick one of the colored addresses in this trail, look up one of the ~100 addresses they've funded, and that address bets on betcoindice exclusively non-stop.