Topic: BFL ASIC REFUNDS - Why? NOT FCC APPROVED! Class action? (Read 4870 times)

Georgie my boy, again,   Self dec. I spoke with your guy on firday, these devices operate at a COMBINED total of 10 or 60 GH/s I believe we are talking 16 engines @ 250mhz nominal (300mhz max)  The GIGAHASH speed has NOTHING (there is a propotionality to chip speed and hashes yes in theory) to do with the Mhz or Ghz, or RF leakage, if you file, let me know I'd LOVE to use that in my personal law suit against BFL. so the leakage is not coming from microwave range or any special protected ranges, also its NOT like an xbox controller as it contains a transmitters, (if these were wireless or self contained (LIKE the 600GH units that might be different), this is more or less akin to a USB wired video car or a math coprocessor.

Nail them by going to UL, and proving the device is no underwritten and is a fire hazard.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/contact/
Location map

Find us at
Address: 10770 El Monte, Leawood, KS 66211 United States of America
Voicemail: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Fax: 1-800-809-MINE (6463)
Skype: butterflylabs


Also here is some ammo for you: http://www.bbb.org/kansas-city/business-reviews/electronic-equipment-and-supplies-wholesale-and-manufacturers/bf-labs-inc-in-overland-park-ks-1000002011

He said she said, it is in my opinion these devices are computers, they have a ASIC processor that runs x GHZ and uses the usb cable to get data. Where a periphial to me is more like a xbox controller. but we will see, I made a written complaint and it has to be follower up in writing. I will post the answer here one way or another. so lets see what happens.

I dont think self declaration will work with these, I have offered to send them a couple one 10 GH and one 50 GH for their evaluation.

As far as I know a class A computing device it cant be marketed to hobbyist or consumers only to business and they have to implement policies not to sell to individuals.

They do not list a suite number on their website only when you get a RMA #101
I cant find a listing for Butterfly labs on the state corporations website in KS Im fIling complaint w/ state atty general on monday, i did find one that said BF labs at a different address and as far as I understand they cant advertise under a different name than their corporate registration.

Lets see where all this goes...

Again, UNLESS BFL is billing these are Class A electronics, and even then, THIS IS A NON ISSUE, and IS ONLY GOING TO BE A FINE.

ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS RF, LEAKAGE.

If its not broadcasting (a transmitter) then the FCC has NO FUCKS GIVEN.

Guy drop this, I hate BFL just as much as the rest of you.

IF  A class action is going to happen its going to be based on:

Advertising/Sales Issues (aka under performance, selling refurbished units as new)
Billing/Collection Issues    (aka refusal to refund in violation with federal guidelines)
Delivery Issues    (the famous delays)
Guarantee/Warranty Issues    (RMA process not being outlines)
Problems with Product/Service  (Catching on FIRE)




Again this the FCC stuff at this point is a Self deceleration. And unless its leaking again a massive ammountof RF (again don't tkae your apart and stick a meter on top of the chip) from what i understand this test is something like  4-6 inches away and then on the power cords and other devices connected to it (EG the USB cable)

Where is that forum post where Inaba says BFL sent the product in for FCC testing and then there is NO RECORD of it ever going to the facility for testing?

Oh and hey... look at the Monarch... see the ETL, CE and FCC logos. Think this thing will get tested? Add that to the list.




http://www.intertek.com/marks/etl/
http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/policies/single-market-goods/cemarking/about-ce-marking/index_en.htm

Silkscreening it on a board doesn't mean much if they haven't been tested properly.

There have been 0 documents produced from BFL to show they agree to conform or conform to EC, ETL or FCC requirements. Maybe someone could get the testing done independently and then make a complaint. They might then have to recall the units.

This, this and this. Whether deliberate or not, those metal box cases are almost the perfect shield for any RF interference the gear could create. I even tested my gear with some of the radio equipment I have access to and found more RF hash coming from the host PC than the jalapeno I tested against (I used a battery as PSU for the jalapeno).

As for catching on fire, the real hazard is those godawful PSUs that came with the Jalapenos. Those things are horrendous. Only time I've lost any USB connected gear was thanks to one of them. What is interesting about them is the label shows them as having both CE and FCC marks. If they were found to be non-compliant, I'd expect BFL to be able to go back to its supplier for compensation instead as the product was not fit for the purpose, nor compliant even though it claimed to be (misrepresented by the manufacturer).

Talked with Jim, the FCC stuff is a self-declaration, and a Non issue, the worst that can happen is BFL gets a fine form the enforcement group.

And frankly there are MUCH more important issues with outdoor lighting cause RF interference than for the FCC to chase down John and Sonny, At best there is no jail time, and BFL states they didnt know they needed to get an FCC auth on these items.

All they care about is RF leakage, and potential to put nose back on to the power grid.


After googling the BETTER route might be doing to UL, and getting the declared illegal or a safety hazard, as we all KNOW many of them have caught on fire.

Is "F" as low as it goes? What's the scale?

You cant delete your own chat stuff there so, an admin must have done it?... makes you think hummmm...

Can confirm, two or three lines pointing to this topic, refreshed the chat window and they had vanished. No idea who was around to actually do it though.

Local BBB  Better Business Breau has given BF Labs Butterfly Labs ButterflyLabs a "F" rating

http://www.bbb.org/kansas-city/business-reviews/electronic-equipment-and-supplies-wholesale-and-manufacturers/bf-labs-inc-in-overland-park-ks-1000002011

Gosh this is getting interesting...

I wonder if the postal authorities would be concerned about possible illegal goods being shipped through the US mails?

And I wonder about the FBI for the interstate commerce trafficking in possibly illegal hardware.



Many calls and WRITTEN complaints to be made.

I heard somewhere that BFL is making 75,000 of the monarchs I dont know if true or not, I hope this does not stand in their way as I told Jim Szeliga to get on it quick or a bunch of i think illegal products could or may hit the market

Red Wolf
I saw you were on BFL chatbox when someone posted a link to here this topic and then it was amazingly gone...
Can you testify to seeing something appear about FCC and link to here then it being quickly deleted by moderators?

Also I cannot find a listing with the Kansas Department of Corporations for them either and they claim to be incorporated on their website

Perhaps you can find a listing...

https://www.kansas.gov/bess/flow/main?execution=e2s1


I think it is against corporate law to not have a filing in the name you do business as , as well as listing your correct address on the form. Again I dont know but I am digging into it.

Just wondering, has anyone considered the possible further reaching ramifications of this? If the FCC find against BFL and fine them, they will immediately start looking for other possible avenues in the same line to follow, namely any other bitcoin mining equipment that isn't FCC certified.

While it is unlikely given the design of the bfl gear (all metal cases, no large gaps anywhere, proper grounding through the case to the USB port shield, etc), if they are found to interfere with lawful radio transmissions, the FCC could issue orders for all users of BFL gear to shut them down or risk hefty fines. This would mean all customers under FCC jurisdiction.

So. That would mean a large bunch of people having to stop mining. But why would it stop there? Other equipment would become a target too. If it has issues then it too could be ordered to be shut down. Particularly the kind of equipment that is operated without cases, as these have little to no shielding to prevent RF noise being propagated.

This could be a very interesting and dangerous can of worms to open. It will be interesting to see where this ends up going. I must admit, I will laugh if it ends up biting any of the complainants in the bum.

Anyone who still has an account at BFL forums, they have deleted mine rather than answer my questions and they are editing their troll box and forum postings!

Please go there and get people to come here to this forum, give them a link in the troll box

Forgot to mention
when submitting your complaint, after initial submission but before sending there is a place to attach PDF copies of your invoices, scan and attach your invoices as well so they can see it is not just me lets flood them with complaints and get a quick enforcement action!

You will get a conformation number after everything is submitted!

Inquiry Tracking Number:   275835
Date of Original Submission:   01/30/2014
Date of Submission:   01/30/2014

George

Here is the officail complaint
You can file your own at
https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/kdb/index.cfm
on left click on "submit an inquiry"
then after filling your information select complaint
then non compliant equipment

This is the Federal Government folks, each and every complaint HAS to be followed up on!

--
 

I spoke with Jim Szeliga re: Butterfly Labs www.butterflylabs.com
He said to file a complaint and to ask it get routed to him if needed to speed things up since he is up to speed a bit.

The company has terrible customer service which has lead me to start digging looking for problems with the company I was reading
http://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet62/oet62rev.pdf

and my intrepration of a external periphial computing device requires some form of written authorization and the company will not provide it and deleted me access to their discussion forums.

Butterfly Labs
has been marketing / selling these products for nearly 2 years
they told me they do not need any FCC approval

They are selling a essentially a math co processor for a computer that is a external periphial running at over 9mhz their devices plug into a computer and do complex math problems, they market and sell online to residential customers and have been for some time.

I have spent over $8,000.00 with them and want my money back. Many others have been affected, there are thousands of customers and they are coming out with a new product as well a internal card to process computations as well.

Please look into their 10 Giga Hash and 50 GH products those are the ones I bought and I'd be happy to submit a device for quick enforcement action.

Please look at their website to confirm marketing to anyone and offering equipment for sale without any FCC approvals or authorizations. Also I believe one of the main people in the corporation is an ex felon if that makes any difference.

Contact info follows, they have NEVER returned my phone calls!

http://www.butterflylabs.com/

Their address is

Butterfly Labs
10770 El Monte #101
Leawood, KS 6621
800-809-6463

PS I could not find any corporation listed at that address or name by the
Kansas Business Entity Search
https[Suspicious link removed]cution=e1s2
the only thing that comes up is BF Labs at a different address. it looks like I need to address that as well with the Kansas dept of corporations, that will be my next complaint.

I'm just shocked it has taken this long. BFL have been conning people for way too long already.

Good News Folks...

For those that knuckled under over BFL saying this has been beat to death... The problem is many people knuckle under when someone talks with w/supposed authority and do not follow through...

I just got off the phone with the FCC's technical standards division

Jim Szeliga
301-362-3051

He stated the BFL USB connected devices are PERIPHIALS under FCC law and require "Equipment Authorization" PERIOD no ifs ands or buts That the device until authorized cannot be marketed or sold to anyone in the USA.

WE are referring the case over to the FCC enforcement division today

Class action is 1 step closer....

Anyone want to join me now? I am now interviewing law firms to see who will be best for this case.

Call Jim and ask... They need to get their phone blown up on this. Let him know how much you spent and that you want your money back as well.

George

Especially bitcoin companies unfortunately. Still too many completely amateur bitcoin companies running round the wild wild west.

Wow, I never knew that BFL had such terrible customer support. It seems like a lot of business now days just deflect and sustain until absolutely needed to give in... Just my opinion.

I bought "in stock items" and i believe it took them over 2 weeks to ship them "from in stock"
then I have 1 powersupply bad right out of the box... took over a week for that to come in
I had another RA for a 50 GH unit only working 1/2 speed, took them 5 days after I filed a RMA request form my control panel, then I have to mail back, wait how long for them to fix and return? we will see, then shipping again, im looking at 3 weeks... and in this business time is money.
now I have another 50 unit running under 90% another unit that has to go back and I cant create a RMA while the other is still pending.
They do not answer their phone or answer emails with any clarity or even if answered at all.

Poor way to run a company... so of course I want my money back, today if possible, and he can have all their crap
if they want to go to court, cool, I'll keep mining until the date.

My whole point if they would ship as advertised from IN STOCK, if they would answer their phone form upset customers?
I have a 3 out of 10 device failure, that is so not acceptable. IN STOCK to me meand ready to ship, not have to process orders for a week, then have your device built. of course different things mean different things to different people.

They run a crappy company, and they deserve what they get, the FCC may not actually do anything that is why I am asking for a class action suit of others that have been treated like I have. The LAW is the LAW and I would not have gotten uppity if I was treated like a valuable customer.

Perhaps then they will treat customers correctly after they are sued and or shut down. it should be fun to subponea their customer list

I've heard rumors the company is run by a former felon...

So lets see what happens.... f them

This whole 'no FCC approval' thing has been rolling along for over seven months now.  Surely, if it was actually a big deal someone would have emailed the FCC with some photos of BFL's equipment and left it at that?  If the FCC cared they should have acted by now. 

I understand that customers are frustrated by the BS they have received, and continue to receive from BFL (remember, Monarchs were supposed to ship in November/December 2013.  How many were shipped?).  However I find receiving equipment from BFL, using it, and then finding some (any?) reason to extract money out of them out of spite to be quite low behaviour.  For those people who keep bringing up the no FCC approval theme, you're not using your illegal hardware to mine, right?

So, basically george, you are trying to sue a company on a technicality because you forgot to read the big warnings that said "there is no garantee on the shipment time". Nice going.

If you do succeded with suing them, don't you think all orders would be stopped only for the USA market? These products would probably end up being sent to any other country without an FCC regulation....

So go ahead with it. I'll get mine faster 

I am I supposed to know these units are not FCC certified?
Read the link above, I have a call into the FCC and they are looking into it.

Either it is legal to sell or not...

Can you sell computing devices without a FCC sticker in the USA?
or a periphial that has a clock rate over 9MZ

If BFL would be prompt with customer service perhaps they would not have gotten this drama, the point is, if it is legal or not.
If illegal then all transactions are null and void.

The FCC regulates this stuff to protect you and I form invisible microwave type radiation emitting form the device.

You ld you want a microwave in your house that was not certified?

Im sure you would, go take the door off and jumper the safety disconnect and see what happens to you after a few months of constant use

George

I think we should start a lawsuit against georgeberz' mom for dropping him on his head when he was little.
Who's with me!?!

or this

1. Order BFL product
2
3. Profit!!

Well that didn't work soooo....
1.Order BFL product without performing due diligence
2.
3. Profit Fail!!!
4. Complain about own stupidity on public forum for world to see.
5.Mentally masturbate about "BFL pissing off the wrong person"
6.
7. Profit MOAR!



In all seriousness.  Stop before you hurt yourself or others. You can be held liable for everything you said here on this forum and "you don't want to piss off the wrong person".  Cuz some people don't just talk shit but walk shit too.

Im in, you should post on reddit too...im sure everyone is getting sick over those bullshit monarch preorders. I just saw one on ebay with a 99 cent starting price...They have fucked over so many people its obviously laughable...we should start a Bitcoinstarter campaign to raise money to sue...seriously

Has their never been a class action against BFL yet? If not, staggered .....

They pissed me off... Their customer service is terrible... I have had their products for less than a month!

I just purchased form them nearly 9k worth of equipment, 1 defective powersupply out of the box and another 50 gh unit failed after 24 hrs
now I have another one that just went under 45 GH so I need another RMA as its under thier 10% tolerance policy and they dont respond! I think they are selling fixed / refurbisned former RMA parts right now cleaaring out the warehouse so to say. If they are that is another crime selling refurbished as new... cant be done in this country either.

So I want my money back!

After looking into things, I see they do not have FCC approval and the posting quote above seem to think so, I called the FCC and spoke to an agent they are going to get me to the right person to have a definitive yes or no.

The law is the law and you cant violate the law for over a year and then try to fix things after the fact.. This is AMERICA and we all HAVE TO HAVE a level playing field.

Quite simply put they need to be responsive to their customers or they are going to piss off the wrong person and... well... now the FCC can have their way with them.

I am also looking into a lawsuit at the moment, anyone want to join, PM me.

Isn't this kind of shady? To sue them after you used their products? I smell that's just taking advantage from their mistake / inability to be FFC-compliant.

On the other hand, you can sue them if you had damages, let's say your rack burnt down because the miners were faulty.

Do it..destroy them..

I want to fight Josh...I would of so fucked their shit up at CES if I could of gone. I would of protested their booth and sent their potential customers running for the hills

Josh and Slok refuse to deal with the question... over at BFL

Perhaps if we start a class action suit that will get their attention to give prompt customer service

I was just banned for posting about FCC certification on BFL website

I thought you would like to see how BFL deletes unhappy customers
Rather than answering phone calls and or emails, they give me a total ban...

Im always down to fuck up BFL

Reference Material
http://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/En...2/oet62rev.pdf

Digital Devices and Personal Computers
Section 15.3(k)
A digital device is a device or system that generates and uses digital timing signals
operating at greater than 9,000 cycles per second (9 kHz). Many types of electronic
equipment and consumer products are digital devices because they contain circuitry
using such digital timing signals. Examples of digital devices include computers,
calculators, digital watches and clocks, automotive electronic systems, and most
telephones, microwave ovens, video cassette recorders, and security alarm systems.



Peripherals to a Digital Device
Any device that feeds data into or receives data from a digital device is a peripheral of
the digital device. Peripherals include external devices that connect to a digital device
by wire or cable, and circuit boards within the digital device that connect it to external
peripherals. Also included are circuit boards that increase the operating or processing
speed of a digital device. Examples of peripherals are computer printers, monitors,
keyboards, printer cards, video cards, local area network cards, modems, and
enhancement or accelerator boards.
Section 15.3(r)
Peripherals to a digital device are subject to FCC technical standards because they can
generate their own radio noise or allow the escape of radio noise generated by the
digital devices to which they are connected. Peripherals to a personal computer must
be authorized by the FCC.

I was wondering if BFL Butterfly Labs has FCC certification for all the miners they have sold?
look here
http://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet62/oet62rev.pdf

It seems they would be illegal to sell in the USA...

Anyone want to start a class action lawsuit and go for a FULL refund or original purchase price + damages

PM me if interested we need 25 - 50 people only to get this started!

George