Author

Topic: [BFL] "Timeines, delays and why shipping is only now happening in June!" (Read 1167 times)

legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
Red_Wolf_2's story might sound all good and that but doesn't quite add up when BFL themselves are stating  "we're most likely looking at shipping in about 2 weeks time" almost every month. They've since eased up the shoddy predictions but my point still stands.

^This


If BFL had simply admitted to their errors and their need to redesign twice, far fewer people would be angry with them. However, BFL had been taking pre-orders and were in a 3 way marketing war with bASIC and Avalon. BFL could not show weakness because we all saw what happened to Bitcoin ASIC companies that run into trouble and get asked for too many refunds (wink wink bASIC).

God knows what actually happened in BFL. I do know that since that post appeared on BFL's forums that it has been blessed by management (BFL aggressively moderates their forums).

Edit: also, it could have been so much worse. http://o.canada.com/2013/06/06/spain-builds-submarine-70-tons-too-heavy/
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
Now if only a certain someone had the sense to speak to this community so clearly and openly to begin with, instead of kicking the hornet's nest on here by mocking us all and punitively cancelling orders, I'm sure the "state of things" would be much nicer instead of having turned so nasty Sad

A very well written and honest post.
The only problem being, it's a post written by a customer who doesn't know the REAL story.

He just made a story based on what he thinks he knows. The REAL story is unknown as BFL won't say much.

how many quarters did he get to figure this all out?
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
first off.. we have the product..


then later on..  no singles, minirigs..  kichen sinks..  nothing else
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
Now if only a certain someone had the sense to speak to this community so clearly and openly to begin with, instead of kicking the hornet's nest on here by mocking us all and punitively cancelling orders, I'm sure the "state of things" would be much nicer instead of having turned so nasty Sad

A very well written and honest post.
The only problem being, it's a post written by a customer who doesn't know the REAL story.

He just made a story based on what he thinks he knows. The REAL story is unknown as BFL won't say much.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
Quote
Critical path: develop ASIC, develop board, develop firmware.

This is what BFL has pretty much done. The original timeline for the project may have been about four or so months, assuming preorder was when the project kicked off. Where things became unstuck was when things went wrong.
ASIC and board design can to an extent be run in parallel, once you know the physical shape and number of pins on the ASIC, as well as what the pins will do (power, data, ground). This would have been going along just fine, until it turned out that QFN packaging was unsuitable for the ASIC that had been designed due to overheating. I'd guess a crisis meeting would have taken place which would have discussed options on how to proceed, such as:
cancel orders, refund everything and stop the project
proceed with QFN design of ASIC and lose the targets on power consumption and hash rate
replace QFN design with something else (BGA) that will overcome the physical constraints.
design a whole new ASIC that will work with QFN packaging.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status.html

Quote
I have often fielded the question as to if Chinese New Year will affect our shipping. No, Chinese New Year it will not affect us. We have all of our parts needed to build the units in stock, with the exception of the chips. We have taken delivery of all of our Chinese made components at this time and they are filling up our warehouse and the assembly plant warehouse.

Seems to me that they did it ass-backwards: Buy everything, wait for the chips, and when the chips didn't work, buy everything again to make it work.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
Quote
By shipping the Jalapenos you silence the people screaming scam, and also put a product out to market that will attract more customers, as higher order numbers ensure you can order larger batches from suppliers and get them more quickly.

And when, exactly, would those suppliers get paid. Surely not early from any pre-order money because that would be illegal.

The OP looks like it was written from the standpoint of BFL by a BFL personal in third person. I can easily punch holes in the timeline outlined at the onset of the text. In fact, I'm going to do just that after I make sure this thread isn't self-moderated, then I'll hunt down what I have in mind.
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 501
Having been on several projects that ran over schedule and/or over budget. I've been batting around in the back of my head that something along this line could be the case. I suspect that the author is spot on. that being said however, the world we live in shows us that less than honorable people do exist, and i suspect that it is human nature to think the worst. At least that way you are somewhat prepared.

Sometimes it takes an objective 3rd party to be the voice of reason.

as for the public relations debacle. I doubt anyone would believe, regardless of what was said. For all any of us know Josh and company could have been telling the truth as they believed it to be at the time. We all know Murphy's Law(if not, google it). well on a project like this Murphy works overtime. None of us "knows" what is truth and what is speculation. But many will insist that their beliefs are fact, because they "know".

All I know is that i want my order fulfilled, barring that i'll want my money back. But, I am willing to give them until the end of July to make good or be close to it. I'd much rather have my hardware. Will I get what i want? Flip a coin, just not a Bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
There would be a problem with the OP->OP working for a company like BFL

They are totally corrupt and somebody with some form of integrity would not blatantly lie about prototypes & "honest abe" declarations in relation to delivery timelines.

An honest person would not be part of the lies being spewed forth by these asshats

This is why u have ppl like Josh working for COnMan Inc @ BFL and not some rational employee's such as OP
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
decentralizedhashing.com
Funny, I was just going to suggest to Inaba that if he feels he has a reasonable case to make, why not make it?  Over and over again.  Just has to write out a good explanation with a faq that can be updated with all the questions and answers that have been given.  Then constantly refer to it.  If you feel that you are right, tell us succinctly and people will start to listen,  otherwise why wouldn't everyone call scam?

edit
I say this because I would like to have them back on the list, but until I have a good reason, shipping.. communication that makes sense...  come on guys.  Maybe this already exists..  if so link me, I don't think many people have seen it.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1067
Christian Antkow
Now if only a certain someone had the sense to speak to this community so clearly and openly to begin with, instead of kicking the hornet's nest on here by mocking us all and punitively cancelling orders, I'm sure the "state of things" would be much nicer instead of having turned so nasty Sad

A very well written and honest post.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
I don't think he is from BFL. His profile says "customer"

They need to hire him. Way more of an effective communicator...
full member
Activity: 237
Merit: 100
I don't think he is from BFL. His profile says "customer"
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Whilst well articulated, it does not excuse their public relations or communications approach with their flock.

That one letter is a magnitude better than their other communications I have witnessed so far.

legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
Quote
cancel orders, refund everything and stop the project
They had the answer all along.
sr. member
Activity: 279
Merit: 250
Red_Wolf_2 from BFL Forums

Quote
Ok, so after seeing the almost incessant carrying on about Jalapenos being shipped before Little Singles/Singles/Minirigs/the kitchen sink as well as people complaining that it has taken so long for BFL to deliver anything, I've decided to write this blog entry in the hope it might get a few more people to understand why we are at the point we are today.

First up, I work(ed) in IT, doing all sorts of things from helpdesk to business analysis and project management. I have worked as a coder, designer, script following helldesk monkey, 2nd/3rd level support and resolution, system architect and a whole pile of other things. I have managed projects that have gone well, and projects that have been complete disasters. I have applied what I have learned to how I've seen things progress at BFL and below is what I think has caused the delays and issues we have seen. These are my own opinions, based largely on what I've seen on these forums, in the shoutbox, on grnbrg's twitter feed and on IRC.

First up, we have the product. Development of a dedicated device using non standard parts to mine bitcoins faster than anything else that currently exists while using less power than anything that has come before it to do the same task. BFL has had some experience doing similar, develping a dedicated device that mines bitcoins using an FPGA as the core processor. Faster and more efficient than a GPU, but really little more than a cut-down developer board for the same chip that many other devices use in the world. Requires development of a nifty little case, custom board and some firmware to run the thing. Total requirements: Engineer to make the box, electrical engineer and/or computer scientist to work on the FPGA, firmware and board design. Potential risks of supply are minimal, risks of the FPGA being unsuitable are minimal as it can be reprogrammed easily. SHA-256 engine design can be purchased from 3rd party, further minimising timeframe.

Lets now look at the ASIC. Also requires a nifty case (easy). Requires redesign of engines to take full advantage of ASIC design and minimise power consumption while maximising hashing output (difficult). Requires board to host ASICs, which is dependent on design of the ASIC itself and can not really be done beforehand. Requires firmware to run the whole thing (easy) however this requires at the very least an idea of the board design and ASIC specifications.

Critical path: develop ASIC, develop board, develop firmware.

This is what BFL has pretty much done. The original timeline for the project may have been about four or so months, assuming preorder was when the project kicked off. Where things became unstuck was when things went wrong.
ASIC and board design can to an extent be run in parallel, once you know the physical shape and number of pins on the ASIC, as well as what the pins will do (power, data, ground). This would have been going along just fine, until it turned out that QFN packaging was unsuitable for the ASIC that had been designed due to overheating. I'd guess a crisis meeting would have taken place which would have discussed options on how to proceed, such as:
cancel orders, refund everything and stop the project
proceed with QFN design of ASIC and lose the targets on power consumption and hash rate
replace QFN design with something else (BGA) that will overcome the physical constraints.
design a whole new ASIC that will work with QFN packaging.

All options would have had their drawbacks. Cancel orders and refund everything would probably have meant the end of BFL, if not at the time in the future when competitors developed working designs. Not to mention the loss of reputation. Proceeding with the QFN design would allow a product to market sooner, however it would be well below promised spec (cue class actions, refunds, whinging, mayhem, etc). Replacing the QFN design would require a rework of the current wafers (if even possible) and a complete rework of the board design. Any existing boards would be useless and money would be lost on any parts that could no longer be used, as well as requiring additional time to repeat the development processes. Designing a whole new ASIC to use the existing QFN packaging would take even longer, have no guarantee of success and might not have even been possible with the technology available.

BFL proceeds with the change in chip design. Existing board design is thrown out the window and started again, although many chunks could be reused. New boards need to be ordered from the supplier, and new chips need to be fabricated. Decision needs to be made on how to test the modified/new wafers, testing before cutting and mounting will cost an entire wafer, but will be faster than waiting the whole time for the foundry to do its thing. Foundry and other external suppliers already have existing commitments and will only go as fast as they choose to, no matter what BFL does. Time progresses and finally after almost having to restart the project from scratch (or at least half way through), a product is finally built. It gets tested, but doesn't perform to spec. Power requirements are a lot higher than predicted for the promised hashrate. This is bad news for the Jalapeno line which is suppose to be USB powered.

Further crisis meetings occur, except this time for the boards. Testing shows the USB powered jalapeno will not work, it just pulls too much power. Parts of the board are getting hotter than they should and nobody can figure out why without doing even more testing, all of which takes more time. The USB powered jalapeno is scrapped and the little single external powered design is used instead, just with fewer lower spec chips. This will cost more but at least it will work. Boards are reworked to suit
Little Single, Single and MiniRig designs are determined to require a redesign of board to support more chips run at lower clock rate. (Not having more information available, I'd guess this is to do with inefficiencies and heat generation when running the ASICs at the highest possible speed). This means yet another board redesign, not to mention further fabrication, sourcing and all that is involved with essentially making a whole new product.

Instead of the original four month timeline, the project has now blown out by a factor of two with the board and ASIC redesign. Add to that delays with the production of the chips (at least another month) and discovering the end product still did not meet original design specifications (a month or more on trying to get the power issue under control). Doubling the project timeframe brings us to February 2013, adding two and a half more months, to April/May 2013. Now add the discovery that a whole new board is needed (add another month, the longboard looks like two shortboards stuck together so redesign should be faster) and you get to June 2013. The Jalapenos, while no longer USB powered, fundamentally work at the hashrate promised. BFL is now way over their original timeframe.

What do they do?

Left, right and center you have people, customers and competition calling you a scam. Customers are asking for refunds or completed products. There is only one way out of a situation like this if you want to survive and that is to deliver what you have got, even if it isn't the whole end product. Therefore, BFL starts shipping Jalapeno units, even though the LS/S/MR aren't ready yet. The competition is already shipping product and new competitors are on the horizon, so it is the only way to claw back market share and restore some semblance of customer faith. By shipping the Jalapenos you silence the people screaming scam, and also put a product out to market that will attract more customers, as higher order numbers ensure you can order larger batches from suppliers and get them more quickly. It also ensures that customer complaining is tempered by those who now have devices to hash with. While proceeding with Jalapeno production and shipping, continue work on the MR as higher priority (as cancelled orders of these will hurt a lot more), followed by Single then Little Single.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/red_wolf_2/185-timelines-delays-why-shipping-only-now-happening-june.html

Draw your own conclusions.
Jump to: