BIP 39 and SLIP 39 | Bitcointalksearch.org

Forsyth Jones

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Quote from: pomme7000 on September 16, 2024, 06:48:52 PM

I’m still a novice here, but don’t multisig and Shamir address two different needs/issues?

Multisig exists so that more than one person is required to authorize a transaction. But Shamir exists so that more than one seed shard is required to restore a wallet seed phrase. Is this not the case?

Exactly that, to better understand shamir backup, I recommend this link from Trezor (Satoshi Labs), creator of SLIP-39: https://trezor.io/learn/a/what-is-shamir-backup

I also found this link from the Trezor blog that should explain more: https://blog.trezor.io/20-word-wallet-backup-your-questions-answered-bff078922644

pomme7000

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Quote from: _act_ on September 15, 2024, 02:23:35 AM

SLIP39 which is shamir's secret sharing for mnemonic codes is the one that is not official. Also I prefer seed phrase which mist wallets supports. I will prefer to add passphrase. If it involves more than one person, I will prefer multisig wallet.

I’m still a novice here, but don’t multisig and Shamir address two different needs/issues?

Multisig exists so that more than one person is required to authorize a transaction. But Shamir exists so that more than one seed shard is required to restore a wallet seed phrase. Is this not the case?

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Quote from: odolvlobo on September 14, 2024, 04:45:15 PM

While BIP 39 is very popular, it is not the "official bitcoin standard". Strictly speaking, there are no "official standards" because there is no authority; however, a BIP implemented in the reference client might be considered to be an "official standard" for practical reasons

FYI, Bitcoin Core does not implement or use BIP 39.

While BIP 39 is a great feature, SLIP 39 is a major improvement. I hope that enough wallets eventually adopt SLIP 39 so that it becomes as ubiquitous as BIP 39, perhaps even replacing it.

Although SLIP39 is an innovation from Trezor that aims to solve the problem of lack of trust in delegating recovery actions to a certain number of people or places and determining a minimum threshold to rebuild the wallet, I don't think it should be replaced, BIP39 is still very useful and the most trusted by people and wallets, what we want to see here is an additional option and not to exclude one that already exists, it's worth remembering that SLIP39 does not make the BIP39 standard obsolete.

I personally will continue using the BIP39 standard, I do not see a specific reason to use SLIP39 other than for testing for now.

Remembering that in BIP39 it's possible to use the BIP85 standard to derive child seeds, which can be very useful if we want to use only one seed as a backup and this will be used to recover the child seeds.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: _act_ on September 15, 2024, 02:23:35 AM

Quote from: odolvlobo on September 14, 2024, 04:45:15 PM

While BIP 39 is very popular, it is not the "official bitcoin standard". Strictly speaking, there are no "official standards" because there is no authority; however, a BIP implemented in the reference client might be considered to be an "official standard" for practical reasons
FYI, Bitcoin Core does not implement or use BIP 39.

Bitcoin Core is using master private key instead. BIP means was proposed and accepted. If the proposal is not accepted, it will not be included into the BIP lists just as SLIP39. BIP39 was accepted which makes it official.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but not all BIPs are proposed and "accepted". There are BIPs, such as BIP 135, that are proposed and rejected. If you read BIP 39, you will see that its status is proposed.

Anyway, there are no "accepted" BIPs, unless by "accepted" you mean inclusion in Bitcoin Core.

_act_

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Quote from: odolvlobo on September 14, 2024, 04:45:15 PM

While BIP 39 is very popular, it is not the "official bitcoin standard". Strictly speaking, there are no "official standards" because there is no authority; however, a BIP implemented in the reference client might be considered to be an "official standard" for practical reasons

FYI, Bitcoin Core does not implement or use BIP 39.

Bitcoin Core is using master private key instead. BIP means was proposed and accepted. If the proposal is not accepted, it will not be included into the BIP lists just as SLIP39. BIP39 was accepted which makes it official.

SLIP39 which is shamir's secret sharing for mnemonic codes is the one that is not official. Also I prefer seed phrase which mist wallets supports. I will prefer to add passphrase. If it involves more than one person, I will prefer multisig wallet.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on September 14, 2024, 10:50:34 AM

Quote from: slaman29 on September 14, 2024, 10:07:55 AM

It feels like a terrible way to store something though, if you need another Trezor to restore access. I know Electrum also has its own seed implementation but at least it's open source and freely available to restore.

You can import slip39 into desktop Electrum

There are other tools that you can use offline for it.

Thank you, that's very cool.

So ok, I was wrong about developing something just for Trezor, still never heard of this slip39, but no doubt something very important that if you ever use a wallet, or a new one, to understand that seed phrases can't always be recoverable everywhere (I knew this about Electrum only a bit later after I used it).

odolvlobo

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Quote from: pomme7000 on September 14, 2024, 09:07:32 AM

1. BIP 39 is still the official bitcoin standard.

While BIP 39 is very popular, it is not the "official bitcoin standard". Strictly speaking, there are no "official standards" because there is no authority; however, a BIP implemented in the reference client might be considered to be an "official standard" for practical reasons

FYI, Bitcoin Core does not implement or use BIP 39.

While BIP 39 is a great feature, SLIP 39 is a major improvement. I hope that enough wallets eventually adopt SLIP 39 so that it becomes as ubiquitous as BIP 39, perhaps even replacing it.

pomme7000

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Thank you all. Again, very helpful.

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Yep, you’ve got it! BIP 39 is the standard used for most wallets, so you can restore your wallet on different devices with the same seed phrase. SLIP 39, used by Trezor, is more specialized and involves secret sharing.

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Quote from: pomme7000 on September 14, 2024, 09:07:32 AM

1. BIP 39 is still the official bitcoin standard.

BIP39 was also made by Trezor developers, and it is one of several BIP standards used for bitcoin seed words.

Quote from: pomme7000 on September 14, 2024, 09:07:32 AM

3. SLIP 39, at present, is a company-specific (Trezor) standard.

SLIP39 is also compatible with other bitcoin wallets so you don't have to worry about that.
Electrum and Blue wallet will work just fine with SLIP39, and I am sure other wallets are going to support it soon.

Quote from: pomme7000 on September 14, 2024, 09:07:32 AM

4. If you lose your Trezor hardware wallet, you will have to buy a new Trezor hardware wallet to rebuild your bitcoin keys from your 20-work seed phrase.

No, not even all Trezor wallets support SLIP39, only newer models.
You can recover to any other supported wallet, and you should find more information on Trezor website:
https://content.trezor.io/slip39

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Quote from: slaman29 on September 14, 2024, 10:07:55 AM

Never heard of SLIP39 til now to be honest. Always thought people who use Trezor usually just import Electrum...

You are not wrong though as you can import it on electrum as already mentioned above.

Quote from: slaman29 on September 14, 2024, 10:07:55 AM

It feels like a terrible way to store something though, if you need another Trezor to restore access. I know Electrum also has its own seed implementation but at least it's open source and freely available to restore.

That's how a product become unique, although one of the cons is its not universally supported/implemented yet so you can't import on any wallet unlike BIP39

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: slaman29 on September 14, 2024, 10:07:55 AM

It feels like a terrible way to store something though, if you need another Trezor to restore access. I know Electrum also has its own seed implementation but at least it's open source and freely available to restore.

You can import slip39 into desktop Electrum

There are other tools that you can use offline for it.

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Never heard of SLIP39 til now to be honest. Always thought people who use Trezor usually just import Electrum or whatever other wallet they have, guess I have to actually start using a hardware wallet one of these days to understand all this.

It feels like a terrible way to store something though, if you need another Trezor to restore access. I know Electrum also has its own seed implementation but at least it's open source and freely available to restore.

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Slip39 is when seed phrase or private key or any character that has 128 bits to 256 bits +which is the standard) is converted to a share or shares that can be used to regenerate the seed phrase, private key or the 128 to 256 bits of characters.

It would be good for more than one shares and not necessary if the share is not more than one.

Quote from: Mia Chloe on September 14, 2024, 09:22:40 AM

SLIP 39 is more like an extension of BIP 39, developed by Trezor, to support more advanced features like Shamir's Secret Sharing. Although Trezor's implementation of the SLIP 39 format is kinda specific to their devices, the standard is open-source and can be adopted by others too but I kinda think the likelihood is thin

The key difference is that SLIP 39 adds an additional layer of security and flexibility, but it's not yet universally supported like BIP 39. Though it's similar to how ELECTRUM uses a specific algorithm for seed creation. So if you lose a Trezor wallet using SLIP 39 you might need to replace it with another Trezor device to restore your wallet using the 20-word seed phrase.

SatoshiLabs implemented Slip39. Electrum desktop wallet also supports Slip39.

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Of course Op BIP 39 is the official and most common standard for generating seed phrases for Bitcoin wallets. BIP 39 is widely implemented across many hardware wallets that's why it's the most common though Electrum uses a different seed type.

SLIP 39 is more like an extension of BIP 39, developed by Trezor, to support more advanced features like Shamir's Secret Sharing. Although Trezor's implementation of the SLIP 39 format is kinda specific to their devices, the standard is open-source and can be adopted by others too but I kinda think the likelihood is thin

The key difference is that SLIP 39 adds an additional layer of security and flexibility, but it's not yet universally supported like BIP 39. Though it's similar to how ELECTRUM uses a specific algorithm for seed creation. So if you lose a Trezor wallet using SLIP 39 you might need to replace it with another Trezor device to restore your wallet using the 20-word seed phrase.

pomme7000

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Newbie now learning about seed phrase generation.

I'm familiar with BIP 39 and its use in generating 12 and 24-word seed phrases. I'm also familiar with Shamir's Secret Sharing algorithm, which at least one company (Trezor) has implemented using a 20-word seed phrase based on SLIP 39. I'm not clear, however, on the relationship between BIP 39 and SLIP 39.

What I think I understand, however, is the following:

1. BIP 39 is still the official bitcoin standard.

2. BIP 39 is implemented across many hardware wallets. If you lose a hardware wallet manufactured by company A, you can buy a new hardware wallet from company B and rebuild your bitcoin keys from your 24-seed phrase.

3. SLIP 39, at present, is a company-specific (Trezor) standard.

4. If you lose your Trezor hardware wallet, you will have to buy a new Trezor hardware wallet to rebuild your bitcoin keys from your 20-work seed phrase.

Does this sound right?

Topic: BIP 39 and SLIP 39 (Read 133 times)