Topic: Bisq Decentralized Exchange [Poll] (Read 937 times)

Privacy brings a premium price:

https://bisq.network/markets/?currency=btc_usd

Latest release adds five Indian payment methods: PayTM, UPI, RTGS, NEFT and IMPS:

https://github.com/bisq-network/bisq/releases/tag/v1.7.5

Seems that while we were on the latest Chinese plandemic wave vacation, more INR traders have become savy to use Bisq:

https://bisq.markets/market/btc_inr

Who will be next?

Another detailed explanation why all should take privacy seriously:
OLTB #443:
https://anchor.fm/originalltb/episodes/OLTB-443-Improving-Privacy-on-the-Bitcoin-Blockchain-eisdc6

Thanks for your vote and opinion.
We're back to liquidity and safety. In any market and territory people want that - same as in India - certainly in Europe and US, where most Bisq trades happen.

• European leadership in Bisq we understand: the founders are located there.
• US adoption we understand: individual freedom, liberty, risk taking have a high cultural value there, and much of the population is suspicious and distrustful of government regulations.
• UK is understandably #3 in volume: London is a financial center of Europe. They are culturally similar to US and in everything, everywhere, all the time, as Indians well know since colonial days.
• Brazil has surprisingly moved to #4. Perhaps, it's time to find out how their market makers decided to do that.

As for safety of KYC, seems certain to be a general lack of financial education and understanding that KYC is only there to fight one "crime" - tax evasion. Besides that and justifying propaganda, KYC actually only harms and endangers everyone forced to submit to it:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53969123

However, as mentioned, among over a billion Indians, the number of Bitcoin users who understand the fact above is statistically more than 2.

Lack of sellers might be another reason. I mean the price gets dropped and investors run in to grab the low valued coins. And it is a limited window as the price might get hiked up sooner than later. So, they rush in and buy it from wherever they can as quickly as possible. Whereas in Bisq they'd have to post a trade and then wait for someone to come and use the application and then accept their trade. If that is they are okay with the price. And then it goes through. What this app needs is constant sellers advertising at competitive price. So, the buyers get attracted and start using the platform. Once that happens, it'll start to get more exposure and in time, more users.

One more thing is. In India people are very afraid of frauds. They want to know to whom they are sending money from their banks when buying. But more importantly from where the money is coming from when they are selling. Are they dealing with the same person who is advertising the trade? Or is someone just acting as a mediator between them and a third party? The KYC part in exchanges and P2P helps them achieve that safety. Maybe that's another reason why Indian Crypto traders hasn't warmed up to the application yet.

Btw, I was able to register my vote in the above poll now. I think one has to be at-least Jr. Member to be able to do that. Which is why it wasn't letting me do it before.

It's not decentralized, but it's the next best thing - non-custodial at HodlHodl.

https://hodlhodl.com/offers?search=1&side=buy&include_global=checked&price_currency=INR
:
https://hodlhodl.com/offers?search=1&side=sell&include_global=checked&price_currency=INR

It's a big spread, because there is only one market maker, but what's the reason for not at least having an offer there in INR?

As far as we have noticed, it's human nature worldwide to avoid doing anything the more difficult way, if an easier way exists.

The low number of PC users seems more likely to be a major reason, as was suggested early in several related threads.
If I understood right from this podcast, the number of PC users is less than 10% of India's population?
If so, Bisq still leaks and consumes so much memory, that maybe only a small number of those have enough memory for it.

By then, we are in the millions or 100's of thousands users. Maybe only a few percent are interested in Bitcoin, which brings us to 100's or 10's of thousands.
Among those, some small percentage understand that centralized exchanges collect their data for future use, and once enough is collected, it will be useful and available to the government for looting and punitive actions.

That remnant number seems still likely to be more than 2 in a thousand, or even 2 in a hundred in a country with so many IT related workers, which tend to be well educated, logical, familiar with fundamental nature of the government business model, etc...
Is it known how many users Bitbns and formerly Wazirex have?

People in India tend to shun tech which they perceive to be even slightly difficult; also many trade on the go on mobile devices.

Another thing which i hv pointed above and think is relevant is the lack of concern on privacy; most ppl just dont take it seriously...

We think from this podcast one can infer and deduce at least some reasons why there is no India Bisq volume at all:
http://bitcoininasia.btc.libsynpro.com/bia9-focusing-on-india-with-bitbns-ceo-gaurav-dahake

We guess it's a combination of causes:

• As we understand, there is at least one regulated, centralized, non-custodial, p2p exchange
• perhaps, some grassroots marketing/debating by the above to dissuade, discourage and generally FUD the use of non-regulated competitors
• network effect of LocalBitcoins (hodlhodl, which is the centralized NC/P2P equivalent isn't getting INR trade either)
• government has not started to scale retroactive, tax related litigations yet
• some other cultural factor, related to value and perception of individual liberties

The last 3 seem to be the most likely causes everywhere Bisq is not being used. LBC lost those for whom they were important after it started KYC/AML and stopped F2F fiat trades, but still has INR trade.

So, Bisq's main hope and driver in India seems likely to also be the certain increased looting of Bitcoin users through tax policies, particularly retroactive ones.

Maybe but it must have some cause, also on the side I feel people here aren't really concerned abt privacy much... More like how does it matter... Even if you show them cogent reasons... They want ease over privacy...

Thanks for your suggestions.
Sorry you couldn’t vote in the poll. I don’t see any setting that would prevent new accounts, and yours is not that new.

There is too much detail to explain here regarding why deposits are fundamentally required in Bisq offers. Perhaps, the most basic one is the main difference between centralized exchanges most are using  and Bisq: on the former, you are just offering, buying and selling entries in their website’s database. On Bisq, each offer is a real Bitcoin blockchain transaction.

So, it’s really not made for fast trading of small amounts, because nowadays fast Bitcoin blockchain confirmations cost too much to make small amounts economical to trade onchain, as Bisq does.

It’s for those who understand the advantages and protections Bisq provides, and trading significant amounts of bitcoin. By significant, I would say values over 100 USD at current rates and Bitcoin network fees.

Smaller amounts won’t make sense to trade on Bisq at least until SegWit and Lightning will be incorporated in it, which at current stage and pace of development will take years.

So, you are right that some beginner and small traders avoid trying Bisq for that reason. 
However, we know that the number of intermediate and advanced Bitcoin users in India who trade significant amounts elsewhere is more than 2, just because it’s such a large market, and there are many more trades from much smaller populations, as I mentioned.

Yet, 2 so far is the number of INR traders to try Bisq over the years of its existence. So, the lack of participation from India remains puzzling.

The Poll is not available for me to participate. I see the options but no way to choose. Maybe it is because I am a newbie. As for using Bisq, I'd use it to buy BTC but last time I checked I saw no one selling and I could create an advertisement but that requires me to deposit a certain amount and I don't feel like doing that. So, maybe that is why other's are avoiding it too. I understand that all the other platforms ask you to deposit certain amount of BTC as security if you want to advertise your trade and it is fine but most users just want to quickly hop on to a website, sell/buy as per the preference and be on their way. I think you guys should allow posting smaller amount of trades without depositing anything. At-least when the user is only interested in buying and not selling.

From our experience in several other countries, we are confident that it's not awareness; India has not been somehow isolated and prevented from becoming aware of Bisq, while people became aware in other countries.
Besides grassroots promotion by insiders, Bisq has been extensively covered in mass media over the years, and detailed on prominent trackers: https://coin.dance/volume

(Given India's market size, a professional promoter could even get compensated in BSQ (or BTC by arrangement with 3rd party) for promoting Bisq, if they proposed a campaign to the Bisq DAO.)

However, we're confident it's not awareness. The concept itself seems unattractive and worthless to the market for now in most parts of the world, while gaining traction relatively quickly in others, such as Brazil.
https://bisq.network/markets/?currency=btc_brl

As you see, after almost 600 views of this thread, 99.9% of viewers don't even want to take the time to click our poll here. They are interested in Bitcoin, aware of Bisq, and it takes literally one click to participate, but they don't.

It's not that they wouldn't use it, but it's more about promotion of bisq in India... I think very few ppl are actually aware

You are right about the damage; those of us who traded on early Coinbase and other exchanges, came to regret that years later.
Indians are bound to learn the same lesson the hard way.
That's what we are trying to help new users understand and avoid.

Surprisingly, literally only a couple in a million technically and financially savvy in India are even interested in understanding, avoiding that damage or even trying Bisq one time!
That's puzzling, compared to the numbers who understand that in the West, especially Europe, and are the majority of Bisq regulars.
https://bisq.network/markets/?currency=btc_eur

They do and for anyone who is careful abt his identity shud def use bisq; but I already hv a verified account on Binance and I trade more like futures and all; my base stack is untouched and kept in pvt wallet and I won't be buying any BTC frm any new site; since Binance already has me verified; the damage is already done; using it to buy more of BTC won't really matter per se.

Or am I missing something?

Arbitrage opportunities on USD book continue with bids up to 4% over spot:
https://bisq.network/markets/?currency=btc_usd

We invite those who are able to participate!

Thanks.
Even the issues covered in this post
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53726647
don't matter to you regarding privacy?

nicely put; even IDEX has started with KYC and all; I really liked the overall of BISQ but my limitation is tht i don't particularly feel the need for privacy. But for anyone who wants privacy; shud definitely go for it.

Lower your Bisq trading fees significantly by paying them in Bisq DAO's native token - BSQ.
Details here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9am68oMUzuU

The Q2 report on the status and latest developments in Bisq:
https://youtu.be/k_QjrhU3hrc

If you don't like Bisq, here is a list of other peer to peer exchanges to try:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/dyclf8/list_of_bitcoin_persontoperson_p2p_bitcoin/

also https://kycnot.me/

Just decentralize your Bitcoin trading to places where you control your keys.
As many will tell you from experience, once your centralized exchange has a database of your transactions, and your government gets it, you will regret trading on regulated, centralized exchanges.

Thank you for your unique insight on this. Was it not so with Bitcoin itself also just a few years ago?

If you haven't please add your vote to this poll.

Unfortunately no one in India seems not interested in using completely decentralized platform like Bisq because there is no volume at all for the people who want to trade in the last one year.

It's frustrating to have to explain this to generation after generation of "Senior members", but I guess no way around it:

If you realize what a "a web interface" is, having it would defeat the whole purpose of Bisq, particularly in India, or any other place "the authorities" are attempting to ban cryptocurrency trading.

If you don't realize, "a web interface" means that there is a WEB SERVER somewhere, which has a WEB DOMAIN address that can be confiscated or blocked by any competent "authorities".

That's why any exchange advertising itself as  "decentralized", but running through a centralized web server at a centralized domain URL, is simple false advertising to the ignorant.
At best, ALL web-based DEXs are "non-custodial". None of them are decentralized.  

IMHO, BISQ requires a web interface to have more people on board. OpenBazaar.org also have a web interface at OpenBazaar.com.

Why use Bisq exchange?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53969123

or
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53726647


If you don't know how to install or use Bisq, there is a series of video tutorials to help you:
https://bisq.network/getting-started/
if still unclear, please ask:
https://bisq.network/community/

Please vote in the pole above.