Bitcoin as a property right and Legal grounds of regulating cryptocurrencies.

UKprod

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Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

We often hear about regulations and restrictions of cryptocurrencies but we don't know exactly the legal grounds of its restrictions,May it be unconstitutional? Property right is our constitutional right and noone can restrict it without legitimate reason,By this right people can make profit-oriented actions,which are not prohibited.We may agree that its necessary to implement general norms about this but why goverments need to ban it? Is their legitimate reason criminal? but this 'problem' can be easily solved,because they can prevent anonymous trading.

So why did I open this topic? I just want to know will lawyers can do something against this? or Are their actions against cryptocurrencies justified legally?

Hi there! I do see a lot of good questions here. I'd like to take up one of the question being the property right. In this case, most governments don't give right to property in full i.e. your property can be seized by the government at any point in time if they find a genuine reason to do the same (though certain constitutional remedies maybe available). For example: In US, the right to a person may not be deprived of property by the government without “due process of law,” or fair procedures. This does mean that government can seize your assets if it follows due process of law.

Also, I have written an article on grounds to be taken in case of government action against cryptocurrencies here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.56908197 . It is a quick 5 min read wherein I have summarized the strong contentions/ground one can put forth before the courts.

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When the crypto came as assets,most of the people was accepted to inverse.But the same was changed when the people changed their beliefs over it.Only after the huge pump in the bitcoin price,people realised their fault of non investment.So the new phase of investment was started in the 2017.Now after 5 years of struggle,bitcoin crossed their new halves now.

MCVXYZ

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Quote from: Poker Player on March 06, 2022, 01:02:34 AM

Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

Property right is our constitutional right and noone can restrict it without legitimate reason...

Quote from: DaveF on February 23, 2022, 03:18:13 PM

There is no answer to this question. There are 100s of different countries around the world. Each one with different laws & regulations.

...

So, I guess there is an answer.....It depends where you are.

That's right. Depending on the country, you may find in its laws that private property is subject to the common good, the general interest or something like that, so that private property is not a maximum good that the state cannot touch. And even in countries where private property is more respected, there is what is called expropriation, where the state can take away what is yours to make a bridge or a road for example, always giving you an economic compensation, but even if you do not agree.

That's why the OP's argument is weak.

Expropriation is a legitimate reason for government to restrict property rights but as you said the reason of restrictions must be public welfare or something like that, but the question wasn't this. I mean in developed countries where there is a rule of law, Can authorities ban/restrict it in the name of criminal acts? and I was interested in those legal grounds. Now I understand what people said here.

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Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

Property right is our constitutional right and noone can restrict it without legitimate reason...

Quote from: DaveF on February 23, 2022, 03:18:13 PM

There is no answer to this question. There are 100s of different countries around the world. Each one with different laws & regulations.

...

So, I guess there is an answer.....It depends where you are.

That's right. Depending on the country, you may find in its laws that private property is subject to the common good, the general interest or something like that, so that private property is not a maximum good that the state cannot touch. And even in countries where private property is more respected, there is what is called expropriation, where the state can take away what is yours to make a bridge or a road for example, always giving you an economic compensation, but even if you do not agree.

That's why the OP's argument is weak.

ajochems

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Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 27, 2022, 01:16:12 PM

Its like I'm still newbie in this sphere. Thanks all of you for this information written here, I'm trying to get more and more information about transactions and the whole essence of decentralized network in order to connect more legal information to this.

Cryto world with 30 percentage of new people into the sphere.When the newbie invested on crypto especially bitcoin, they need to wait for longer to get bulk of profit.If they are okay with their investments and profit. They can cashout the dollars anytime.The legalization of bitcoin will increase the flow of bitcoin in that country.And it also leads to the new coin of that country.

MCVXYZ

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Its like I'm still newbie in this sphere. Thanks all of you for this information written here, I'm trying to get more and more information about transactions and the whole essence of decentralized network in order to connect more legal information to this.

suzanne5223

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Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 26, 2022, 04:22:31 PM

They ask detailed legal data on every transaction, So the anonymous transactions to send and complete are minimized(I don't know maybe I'm wrong because I don't have enough experience...) that's why I'm talking about the legal grounds of restrictions where there are minimized the risks of criminal activities.

The habit of your country's bank and other financial institutions asking for legal data whenever transactions are done in cryptocurrency doesn't minimize criminal activities. It is just a modern crypto user jailer because millions of criminal activities are conducted every day through the use of fiat currency and the government turns deaf ears.
To avoid this is the situation what you need is p2p trading.

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Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 26, 2022, 08:50:04 AM

In my country its impossible to use cryptocurrency as a payment system anonymously,
~Snipped~
also you have to address recipients legal data and other details, which excludes the benefits of autonomous aspects.

Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 26, 2022, 04:22:31 PM

They ask detailed legal data on every transaction,

The only way for them to achieve such a thing is "only" if you'd use centralized exchanges and custodial wallets... By changing the nature of those services, none of these would be a problem and you can easily do what @suzanne5223 mentioned the other day ^[p2p].

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Quote from: odolvlobo on February 26, 2022, 07:18:06 PM

Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 26, 2022, 08:50:04 AM

Maybe I don't understand about these aspects but I say what I see. In my country its impossible to use cryptocurrency as a payment system anonymously, because if you want to cash out ...

The point is that when cryptocurrency is used as a payment system then you never need to cash out.

I like that point but looks a little bit distant event for my region. they are still unclear what to do and looking other developed countries with a magnifying glass. Anyway, I hope there will be a common approach about this issue, which allows people more freedom of choice.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 26, 2022, 08:50:04 AM

Maybe I don't understand about these aspects but I say what I see. In my country its impossible to use cryptocurrency as a payment system anonymously, because if you want to cash out ...

The point is that when cryptocurrency is used as a payment system then you never need to cash out.

MCVXYZ

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Quote from: suzanne5223 on February 26, 2022, 03:32:02 PM

Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 26, 2022, 08:50:04 AM

Quote from: suzanne5223 on February 23, 2022, 03:42:58 PM

Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

We often hear about regulations and restrictions of cryptocurrencies but we don't know exactly the legal grounds of its restrictions,May it be unconstitutional?

Each country have different rules and regulation and in some country the restrictions of cryptocurrencies maybe constitutional but 95% of countries that have banned crypto are based on unconstitutional and their claim is always that they ban crypto because of criminal act which have been in existence before the creation of crypto.

Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

but this 'problem' can be easily solved,because they can prevent anonymous trading.

I believe you don't understand the autonomous and no censorship aspect of cryptocurrency when you make this statement. No government can totally prevent anonymous trading.

Maybe I don't understand about these aspects but I say what I see. In my country its impossible to use cryptocurrency as a payment system anonymously, because if you want to cash out you will probably have to ask it to the bank or other financial institutions which is not decentralized, also you have to address recipients legal data and other details, which excludes the benefits of autonomous aspects.

Footing what I said, every country as it crypto rules and your country is to address recipient legal data which I believe would be problematic at some point when you want to exchange crypto for fiat currency through banks or other financial institutions but in a situation like this you can still make use of p2p trading system or is it not supported there.

They ask detailed legal data on every transaction, So the anonymous transactions to send and complete are minimized(I don't know maybe I'm wrong because I don't have enough experience...) that's why I'm talking about the legal grounds of restrictions where there are minimized the risks of criminal activities.

suzanne5223

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Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 26, 2022, 08:50:04 AM

Quote from: suzanne5223 on February 23, 2022, 03:42:58 PM

Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

We often hear about regulations and restrictions of cryptocurrencies but we don't know exactly the legal grounds of its restrictions,May it be unconstitutional?

Each country have different rules and regulation and in some country the restrictions of cryptocurrencies maybe constitutional but 95% of countries that have banned crypto are based on unconstitutional and their claim is always that they ban crypto because of criminal act which have been in existence before the creation of crypto.

Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

but this 'problem' can be easily solved,because they can prevent anonymous trading.

I believe you don't understand the autonomous and no censorship aspect of cryptocurrency when you make this statement. No government can totally prevent anonymous trading.

Maybe I don't understand about these aspects but I say what I see. In my country its impossible to use cryptocurrency as a payment system anonymously, because if you want to cash out you will probably have to ask it to the bank or other financial institutions which is not decentralized, also you have to address recipients legal data and other details, which excludes the benefits of autonomous aspects.

Footing what I said, every country as it crypto rules and your country is to address recipient legal data which I believe would be problematic at some point when you want to exchange crypto for fiat currency through banks or other financial institutions but in a situation like this you can still make use of p2p trading system or is it not supported there.

MCVXYZ

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Quote from: suzanne5223 on February 23, 2022, 03:42:58 PM

Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

We often hear about regulations and restrictions of cryptocurrencies but we don't know exactly the legal grounds of its restrictions,May it be unconstitutional?

Each country have different rules and regulation and in some country the restrictions of cryptocurrencies maybe constitutional but 95% of countries that have banned crypto are based on unconstitutional and their claim is always that they ban crypto because of criminal act which have been in existence before the creation of crypto.

Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

but this 'problem' can be easily solved,because they can prevent anonymous trading.

I believe you don't understand the autonomous and no censorship aspect of cryptocurrency when you make this statement. No government can totally prevent anonymous trading.

Maybe I don't understand about these aspects but I say what I see. In my country its impossible to use cryptocurrency as a payment system anonymously, because if you want to cash out you will probably have to ask it to the bank or other financial institutions which is not decentralized, also you have to address recipients legal data and other details, which excludes the benefits of autonomous aspects.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

We often hear about regulations and restrictions of cryptocurrencies but we don't know exactly the legal grounds of its restrictions,May it be unconstitutional? Property right is our constitutional right and noone can restrict it without legitimate reason.

Which country are you talking about?

In the U.S., your assertions are on shaky ground. The property rights protections in the U.S. constitution are very limited.

Quote from: https://www.cato.org/cato-handbook-policymakers/cato-handbook-policy-makers-8th-edition-2017/property-rights-constitution

The Constitution protects property rights through the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments’ Due Process Clauses and, more directly, through the Fifth Amendment’s Takings Clause: “nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.”

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Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

Property right is our constitutional right and noone can restrict it without legitimate reason,By this right people can make profit-oriented actions,which are not prohibited.We may agree that its necessary to implement general norms about this but why goverments need to ban it? Is their legitimate reason criminal?

Rights can be restricted if legislation consider it so that it is against the laws of the society as they seem it so, government is legislation and may ban based on their opinion. They may have different reasons for banning bitcoin and I think one of it is lack of understanding and that bitcoin is bubble, scamming the people and because of the pressure, growth of technology, digital marketing and need for digital payment and blockchain introduction, they are bowing to regulation.

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Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

We often hear about regulations and restrictions of cryptocurrencies but we don't know exactly the legal grounds of its restrictions,May it be unconstitutional?

Each country have different rules and regulation and in some country the restrictions of cryptocurrencies maybe constitutional but 95% of countries that have banned crypto are based on unconstitutional and their claim is always that they ban crypto because of criminal act which have been in existence before the creation of crypto.

Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

but this 'problem' can be easily solved,because they can prevent anonymous trading.

I believe you don't understand the autonomous and no censorship aspect of cryptocurrency when you make this statement. No government can totally prevent anonymous trading.

DaveF

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There is no answer to this question. There are 100s of different countries around the world. Each one with different laws & regulations.

What might me legal here may or may not be legal in that country over there and if you go to that other country waaaayyy over there things are going to be different.

And then you get into the rules and regulations on different states / provinces in some countries.

So, I guess there is an answer.....It depends where you are.

-Dave

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Quote from: MCVXYZ on February 06, 2018, 09:04:15 AM

We often hear about regulations and restrictions of cryptocurrencies but we don't know exactly the legal grounds of its restrictions,May it be unconstitutional? Property right is our constitutional right and noone can restrict it without legitimate reason,By this right people can make profit-oriented actions,which are not prohibited.We may agree that its necessary to implement general norms about this but why goverments need to ban it? Is their legitimate reason criminal? but this 'problem' can be easily solved,because they can prevent anonymous trading.

So why did I open this topic? I just want to know will lawyers can do something against this? or Are their actions against cryptocurrencies justified legally?

Firstly, Constitutionally, the parliament can bring in any law and if they can't they can easily amend the constitution to bring in that law. Secondly, the "My Property" reason actually is not valid because you would keep meth/ coke in your locker saying it is my property and I can keep it for legitimate reason, I'll hoard it and then sell it later when prices rise. Obviously drugs and crypto are quite different but in eyes of the government, both are just a product that they don't want in the system so they bring a law to ban the use of it in simple words. Lawyers can go against the government's decision, but even lawyers can't go against the parliament's decision in a lot of cases. Rest it can depend upon case to case.

MCVXYZ

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Still interesting what are the legal grounds of restrictions. As for me the majority of restrictions doesn't comply with the main principle of rule of law. I opened this topic 4 years ago and still no legally argumented discuss, I think there is no general agreement outside the EU and this is the main reason of every legal problems.

MCVXYZ

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We often hear about regulations and restrictions of cryptocurrencies but we don't know exactly the legal grounds of its restrictions,May it be unconstitutional? Property right is our constitutional right and noone can restrict it without legitimate reason,By this right people can make profit-oriented actions,which are not prohibited.We may agree that its necessary to implement general norms about this but why goverments need to ban it? Is their legitimate reason criminal? but this 'problem' can be easily solved,because they can prevent anonymous trading.

So why did I open this topic? I just want to know will lawyers can do something against this? or Are their actions against cryptocurrencies justified legally?

Topic: Bitcoin as a property right and Legal grounds of regulating cryptocurrencies. (Read 452 times)