Topic: Bitcoin ETFs - Good or Bad? (Read 736 times)

Yes, if you take precautions you can be safe for some purchases, but if buy, say, a house or a car, which necessarily has your name on it, then people can trace backwards to find you, and then extrapolate other purchases etc.

For GMail, on the hand, you don't have to be careful, you just use it and nobody without a court order is going to be reading your email.

And yeah, I guess if we're talking about one's spouse, that's probably correct, but if we're talking about malign actors e.g. people looking to steal something from you, spending without taking precautions with Bitcoin can get you ripped off, whereas you can email your brains out with GMail and never have to fear such a thing.

For the average user not accustomed to tradecraft, a centralized app from a reputable company is a better bet than Bitcoin or most other cryptos (obviously not the ones specially designed for anonymity like Monero).

And for most people who are not criminals, the kind of anonymity you get from centralized apps is perfectly fine.

Of course if we're talking about credit card purchases (or PayPal et. al.) then it's is a totally different story. Your purchases are practically announced to the whole world with that because they sell non-anonymized marketing data to whomever wants to buy it.

What somebody needs to do is marry these two concepts wherein you can make payments anonymously with a centralized digital currency architecture that doesn't sell your data (and doesn't even know who you are), allowing average consumers to make anonymous payments and yet not be a security threat by allowing criminals a means of extra-legal payment. 

people couldn't resist that's why they pushed for that ETF but the negative effect will come in the long term. we\re happy ffor the approval though.
there were posts weeks ago that a pool tried sensor transactions which i wouldn't be surprised if it was the institutions who influenced them to do it since they are also investing in the stocks of these mining companies.

Whitney Webb a renowned journalist has been discussing BlackRock's agenda for BTC for a while and she said it started since the plan to censor the internet.

Triangulated? Your Bitcoin transactions are as private as your pseudonym under an Internet page, with the exception that transactions don't have an IP address. If you take precautions, it can be pretty private.

I'd argue that if you just want to hide yourself from your spouse, both are equally private. (Unless your spouse works for the NSA, lol)

The question here is rather whether you want to profit from the Bitcoin price, in which case an ETF is the right option for people who are not confident in dealing with physical Bitcoins. But if you see Bitcoin as an alternative to the currency system and are more ideologically motivated to invest in Bitcoin, then I agree with you that an ETF is the wrong option.

I think that without a Bitcoin ETF, the process of investing in Bitcoin may be slightly more complex for traditional investors who are accustomed to investing through regulated financial instruments like ETFs. They would need to navigate the world of cryptocurrency exchanges, wallets, and private keys.
However, it's worth mentioning that even without a Bitcoin ETF, there are already alternative investment products available in the market that provide exposure to Bitcoin. For example, there are Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC) and other similar investment trusts that allow investors to indirectly invest in Bitcoin

The argument that bitcoin is used by all kind of shady people will remain, it is just that now it will change and instead they will portray themselves as the good guys and make the argument that anyone that is outside of their sphere of influence should be the subject of greater scrutiny, so not much is going to change on that regard, the only thing that it will change is that we will see even more money coming to this market, and as a result the price of bitcoin should reach higher levels than what we expected before.

Regarding these two specific points I would say that bitcoin has been used as a speculative asset since the very beginning, not everybody was interested in using it as currency, so this is an old story, the ETFs are not going to make any difference. And it's the same for the big funds buying bitcoin, if they are buying is because some people want to make money out of it, whoever wants to use it to be independent can keep doing it, it won't become centralized.

definitely, privacy is compromised into this type of investment. however, it depends on the investor if he will comply with such requirements. this ETF on the other hand, provides a good avenue for public to learn more about this digital market. as previously viewed as being used only by illegal actors, now with the introduction of crypto-related ETFs, the notion to this market in my opinion is changing. so whether this one is not good for hard core crypto users because they don't want to compromise their privacy, this on the other hand, is good for crypto adoption. because previously noncrypto users will now have more confidence in looking at this market.

Most consumers don't have any practical way of getting at their private key (if there even is one associated with their account), and the entire point of decentralization is lost. This is like saying you can melt down your GOLD ETF and make some jewelry.

But I never said that Bitcoin has no purpose, only that much of its original vision did not pan out. Clearly Bitcoin serves a purpose, and investors agree.


If somebody within Google read people's email, they would be prosecuted (talking here about reading it in the way that most would care, e.g. your specific emails to get at your own personal messages for a specific purpose). Put it this way, for all practical purposes, if you are not breaking the law, your GMail is more private than your Bitcoin transactions. If you send an email with GMail that you don't want your spouse to know about, you are safe, for instance. With Bitcoin that is a lot harder, and far out of reach for most consumers.

But it's still important to have the ability to do so even if many don't feel a need to. If somehow that gets taken away and all that's left is exchanging on centralised platforms, Bitcoin will lose any purpose.


Bitcoin is pseudonymous (don't be confused with pseudo-anonymous), meaning your public keys/addresses are your pseudonym, and it's up to you to take precautions of whether to connect your real identity with the pseudonym or not. So it can be private but doesn't have to.

As for Google account - they can be accessed by Google themselves if they choose to, so not much privacy there.

Most investors don't hold their own keys anyhow, so this won't make a difference for most people.

It's no different than using Coinbase or Binance or some other wallet app.

And a public ledger is not very... private. My GMail account is more private than Bitcoin because at least there would need to be a valid court order to breach my private email messages. Bitcoin transactions can be triangulated by anybody on the Internet.

Sure, but they have a lot of other benefits. Obviously those who prefer to hold shares in an ETF are not bothered about hiding their holdings from regulators/government entities. Quite the opposite, it's probably much easier to keep track of your buy/sell orders for tax purposes than doing so with private transactions.
Again, ETFs are just tools we can use but don't have to. As long as the option to transact directly and anonymously on-chain is not restricted, I see no problem here.

ETFs, like stocks, follow strict rules. They need personal details (KYC) from everyone, so using them removes the privacy that comes with cryptocurrencies.

ETF has nothing to do with decentralization, stay away.

Yes, this is common in every huge news or event happening in the market, so for me, the best thing to do is to wait. Wait for the price to stabilize again. If we assume that the buy the rumor and sell the news is happening then we can be assured it will not stay longer because people just trying to manipulate the market and make money on it.
I don't think any of the ETF things happened affecting the price of Bitcoin recently.

If we exclude all news about Bitcoin Spot ETFs and only use price chart, we will see it is predictive to have corrections for Bitcoin around $40,000 to $45,000. The spike to $49,000 did not last too long and is not important. Finally price has been pulling back with an on-going correction.

Now, includes Bitcoin Spot ETF news, buy the rumor, sell the news is true but after this effect completes its role, we will have good capital contribution from Bitcoin Spot ETF. Money flow is important for any market and we will have massive capital with Spot ETFs.

$200,000 is possible but $600,000 is too much and it will be impossible within next 20 months. It can be a Bitcoin price in next 8 to 12 years, not next 20 months.

I see them as mostly good long term, but in the short term there has always been potential for bad.  For example, it was always going to be a buy the rumor sell the news moment, and that's exactly what we've seen.  However, they are sucking up BTC at a pretty huge rate and when the halving occurs and BTC is distributed from hacks and everything else, the amount of buying power being thrown at a limited asset will be more than the market can take.  I did a little number crunching myself last night and came up with a $600,000 BTC price in 20 months.  Higher than any prediction I've ever made, but my ultimate prediction of a $200,000 BTC in the future feels like it is a matter of months away now (maybe 20).

ETFs are benefical to raise Bitcoin adoption among investors who can't take risks on their own, therefore they seek for middleman services in order to invest. This is the bright side of those funds, although I don't like the idea of concentrating high sums of money on centralized funds. It gives too much power to few individuals on the top positions of financial world, what in theory is the opposite of what Bitcoin proposed to bring to us.

One of the worst aspects of that, is the fact ETFs can be used to manipulate the market, leading coordinated massive sales of BTC, dumping the price and then pumping it again later. If the market were mainly composed by autonomous investors, this kind of market manipulation would be harder to practice.

Anyway, there isn't anything we can do about it. People look for centralization and regulations as a way to feel safer against the risks of a decentralized system, such as hacks, scams and personal mistakes when transacting online. We can't force people to invest by themselves and we can't forbid ETFs to exist. I don't think ETF is the knight on the white horse, although at same time I don't think it's one of the knights of the apocalypse. It has its pros and cons.

The idea that governments can take some money from you, makes them so greedy, if they can find anything that they can take money from you, they will accept it. People assumed that bitcoin would not be loved by governments, even hated, but they missed the fact that if you tell the government that they can tax your bitcoin income, they will be madly in love with it, and that's what we are seeing right now.

I hope that it can go that way, I don't care if I have to pay taxes, it's fine by me, I just have to realize that we are going to end up with something that will benefit everyone, and that should not be an issue. I know that it's going to be a bit of a difficult thing to handle, but it will be as simple as it gets.

They are not completely sincere in buying Bitcoin with their support for the technology in Bitcoin, but it is more likely to prioritize their personal interests. We can see that they will later buy bitcoin as if other people should also buy it. Then some manipulative news will appear and try to make price movements as desired by investors.

The Bitcoin market is still not mature enough, so it is natural that this could be something that is vulnerable to speculation. For ordinary people who only understand how to make money with Bitcoin, perhaps large adoption from several large institutions could be a solution for them. But we ourselves must understand that we do not know the true purpose of what large institutions do.

It could be that we are the real victims.

I can't answer that Bitcoin's movement to ETFs is the right movement.

Bitcoin ETFs are a very good thing for bitcoin in my opinion  I am honestly surprised that it has fallen under 40k like it has, but I do believe it will bounce back relatively soon, and I think a big part of why it's going to come back and then some is the bitcoin ETFs.  These big institutions have tons of clients with tons of money and they will eventually flow in to bitcoin.

Perfect.

The potential downsides, like institutional control and market manipulation, are real concerns. But let's not forget, isn't the current crypto landscape already a playground for whales, manipulating prices with their immense buying power? Whether it's traditional or crypto whales, manipulation exists.

However, the ETF's silver lining is undeniable: increased awareness and adoption. More people exposed to Bitcoin means a wider understanding of its potential, both as an investment and a technology. This could trigger a wave of adoption, bringing legitimacy and stability to the crypto space as a whole.

You welling on "what ifs" won't change the tide. We need to adapt, not resist. The world is evolving, and finance is no exception. Bitcoin, with its disruptive potential, is a force we can't ignore. Embracing the ETF, with all its complexities, might be the key to navigating the future of finance, not just for ourselves, but for generations to come.

I think that was actually a dominating opinion. Even those who were predicting massive gains after the ETF approval were not expecting that to happen immediately after. A lot of people, especially those involved in trading, were saying that a dip/correction is likely to happen (even to $30k levels) before we start the proper new cycle pump.
But, as always, a big part of the bitcoin community have set their hopes way too high and now they're feeling disappointed. Patience is the key.

The information I read from a respected market analyst who doesn't always follow the general predictions and people who scream lambo and to the moon all day, is that Bitcoin wouldn't go above $48k. He was partially right with that. I think the high was around $48.6k - 48.7k. He then said that the market is ripe for a correction down to the $30-35k area. This was a long time before the price started falling. Let's see if he was right.

I have the same thought as you, buy the rumor and sell the news kind of thing, I believe that the market is preparing its way for the halving event before starting to shoot up, my personal thought on before the ETF approval is that I was thinking how the institution would want to buy Bitcoin @then $44k-$48k that the price shot to, So I reasoned that they will try to short the market to get Bitcoin in a more cheaper price than that and which is what we've seen that the market is doing since after the announcement.

You could potentially use a volatile currency if you only held small amounts of it at a time.

Some people who live in countries where currency there is very volatile (although not anywhere near as volatile as Bitcoin) will keep their wealth in an offshore account, and transfer only the money they need in their sovereign currency that day or even minutes before a purchase. And if you have a credit card that draws from an investment account, your wealth can be stored in whatever instrument and everything will be handled for you behind the scenes vis a vie the exchange rates.

And with credit cards and the Internet, one can imagine a the "UI" for your money always being displayed in some measure of wealth you can understand, e.g. US dollars for instance (and yes, this is exactly what we're doing at Haypenny with the "USDE" mechanism).

Most people aren't able to abstract a difference between their payment mechanism, their wealth store, and their measurement mechanism ("how much does it really cost me"), but this is exactly what you need to do in order to understand today's globalized world of finance.

And in this world, Bitcoin and cryptos are speculation instruments, not payment mechanisms. Currency that can viably be used for payment e.g. US dollars or (eventually) Haypenny currencies are all both investments and payment mechanisms. In other words, if you hold Euros, you are essentially investing in Euros, and you can also broadly make payments in directly Euros, etc.

So in summary, there are three different things an instrument can give you:

1. A means of speculation, e.g. an investment you surmise will go up in value.

2. A means of transacting with others.

3. A means of understanding the value, in your own terms, of a given transactions (e.g. converting it to USD or whatever your "native" currency is that your own brain is used to).

Bitcoin and cryptos do #1 only, practically speaking.

Haypenny does #1 and #2 (and it's UI allows you to do #3 in USD specifically).

Traditional currencies do all three.

My question is that even if bitcoin's transaction fees are resolved but given its volatility, is it suitable to be a currency? Is there any currency that will increase or decrease 10% or 20% in value in a day, even an hour? That would cause a lot of problems for people using it for payments.
In my opinion, a volatile asset is more suitable for investment than being a currency, and moreover, how many people are willing to use it as currency? What I see is that people were only focused on the returns that bitcoin provided before we had ETFs. Therefore, I think it is not the ETF's fault that bitcoin cannot become a currency, but it is we who turn bitcoin into an investment, a commodity.

This is some fears as rightly stated, that has been on many minds about the ETFs being approved. Just like number 5 & 6 caught my attention most, I have always known that the ETFs were to put more control over Bitcoin owners. This is how they get taxed. This is how government or agencies could be able to track down any transactions for either payments or by money launderers or for sponsorship of  criminal activities.
This sure takes away anonymity, skews Bitcoin's idea to make it look like a desirable designer asset that may have a future triple value, make the fiat more preferred choice for expenditures and payments and transactions, thereby making Bitcoin more of an asset to own rather than a currency to be spent.

It is still some days in and we can't properly say that this is what will be the final reality of why the Bitcoin ETFs was approved.
After some years perhaps, we can get to revisit this topic in this thread and then we can clearly say if the Bitcoin ETF already approved and in play, was a good idea or a very bad one.

It is always advisable to check prices on public exchanges when one is bidding on a commodity through a platform because as each Bitcoin exchange has different buying and selling rates.


And my assumption is that generally traders in volatile markets always assume that where there is volatility there is money.

I think Bitcoin are doing very well under the circimstances. Let's not forget that none of the other Alt coins has come under the same kind of pressure than what Bitcoin is experiencing.... so they look good, with a lot less transactions.

The congestion is caused by things that are not supposed to be run, like Ordinals ...so do this on any other Alt coin with the same transaction load as Bitcoin and they will suffer the same problems.

We had this problem before and developers brought out SegWit and also the Lightning Network... so Bitcoin are evolving.

   A Bitcoin ETFs has to do with investing fund that tracks the activity used to identify the basic assets, which could be stocks precious metals like gold or even Bitcoin, invsectors happens to know the value of basic assets without owning it directly.

   The Bitcoin ETF's  exchange traded products plan and make decisions to track Bitcoin price, minus the fees and cost of trading.
Investing in Bitcoin ETF could be better for traditional investors because of its method of investing in digital currency.
          Advantages of ETF, its simple,diversify and security while the Dis-addvantages are
  Fees -:investing is more expensive than buying crypto directly .
  Lack of ownership -:when you  Invest in  crypto ETF ,that's you do not own the crypto directly.
  No trading steadily at all times but at only during normal market time, that is trading is limited which is not good.  

I'm going to pick out this sentence in particular. Bitcoin used to be a hope for me as an alternative currency. But today I see Bitcoin more as a commodity (digital gold) and no longer as a currency. Instead, the transaction costs are much higher, which is inefficient for any payment process, especially for small commercial amounts. And if you look at the development of the last few years, there is little hope that there will be further developments that will significantly reduce transaction costs. I would rather see coins like Litecoin or Doge as a currency because they are more practical to use.

How do you know that?

You have much faint in the system.

Remember they couldn't stop torrents and piracy.

But if anything, the ETF demonstrates that the vision of a decentralized technology is a complete failure as a mainstream alternative to current centralized money systems: people don't use Bitcoin that way and they never will.

The ETF shows that nobody really cares about decentralization: they just want a meme to invest in that will go up in value.

(All of the websites, institutions, centralized wallet apps and basically everything that stores private keys in a centralized database does the same thing: shows that consumers don't want "decentralized" anything).

I don't see Bitcoin as a global currency. And I agree, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Lots of technologies start off as one thing and evolve into something completely different.

Bubble wrap was originally created as a wallpaper, for instance:

https://www.businessinsider.com/successful-products-that-were-originally-intended-for-a-completely-different-purpose-2016-3

While it's true that our world is currently dominated by centralized structures, Bitcoin's emergence represents a significant shift. It demonstrates the potential for decentralized technologies to disrupt existing paradigms and offer alternative models for finance and governance. While Bitcoin might not completely dismantle centralized systems, it can potentially act as a catalyst for innovation and inspire the development of more inclusive and transparent financial systems in the future.

In conclusion, the relationship between Bitcoin ETFs, regulation, and global popularity is complex and multifaceted. While regulatory hurdles might seem daunting, I believe the growing demand for Bitcoin and the potential for positive disruption will eventually lead to a pragmatic approach to its integration within existing frameworks.

How do you see it as a global currency if it's incapable of managing millions of transactions every hour? It's not built to do so without second layer solutions, so maybe its role is not to be a currency but a store of value? You say it yourself that it's impossible for it to serve the whole world in its current state, so I don't see this as a bad thing. You can't expect a pig to fly, so it's not a bad thing that it doesn't.
To me ETFs are a good thing. They advertise bitcoin, they won against the SEC, which was attacking bitcoin companies, they legitimized bitcoin in the mainstream media, showed that it's much more than a tool to avoid taxes and buy drugs. Have you noticed that the smear campaign against bitcoin that was trying to make people think that it's the cause of global warming has almost disappeared? Nobody is talking about it now that the biggest asset managers in the world are investing in it. IMO this was a big play from the beginning. Bitcoin was supposed to look bad in the bear market so they could buy it cheap and now that they're in, they need it to look good, so the attacks were toned down.

Good: people will be able to buy "Bitcoin" (scare quotes intentional) as easily as they buy any other security with their brokerage account.

Good: Bitcoin cements its place as a pure meme investment attached to nothing tangible whatsoever.

Good: This very well may increase the price of "Bitcoin".

Bad: This event underscores what many of us have known for a long time, which is that Bitcoin will never be a real mainstream currency and doesn't need to be. The original thesis of Satoshi N. has now been thoroughly discredited, as the blockchain architecture has proven itself impossible to scale to even a ten-thousandth of the volume necessary to service the world's current transactions. Almost no holders of Bitcoin keep their own private keys, which means they are kept in some institution, which is kept in some centralized database somewhere, making a mockery of the original vision of Bitcoin.

Bad: "Bitcoin", to almost all of it's investors, is just the word, "Bitcoin" and nothing else, and the ETF will just increase that.

Good/Bad: Bitcoin invented a new kind of pyramid investment, and made this kind of investing more efficient and pure than it's ever been. (Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends on your own views of these kinds of investments).

From what you have described, of course this is not a good thing to do. If there are some parties who control large amounts of Bitcoin, of course this will have a bad impact later. I think let Bitcoin run its course. There are no NFTs, and no control over Bitcoin.
Personally, I hope the spirit of Bitcoin is as it was developed before. This Bitcoin value or price increases slowly, not because it is forced.
Maybe many people have experience here, and realize what happens if a coin increases in price because it is forced. Today the price soars high, the next day it will be criticized.

Like the first commenter said, what ever has an advantage sure has a disadvantage and vice visa, and coming to whether bitcoin ETF is good or not, sure thing, there are a lot of disadvantages as already listed by the op, but have we also looked at the advantages? One of it being that bitcoin is now legal in the USA, and US citizens can now invest in bitcoin through the ETF.

Personally, I feel that without bitcoin ETF being approved, bitcoin may struggle to gain adoption as we all want, and this is because, lots of countries may continue to place ban on bitcoin prohibiting citizens of that from buying or transacting in bitcoin, but right now the ETF have been approved by the US security and exchange commission, the whole wide world should now see and believe that bitcoin is legal and not a scam as many think or thought.

You and I know that the system is so designed in such a manner that nothing survives without approval from the big government.

Man, Satoshi Nakamoto himself created the bitcoin to avoid being regulated by the government. He is an anarchist and a free market advocate.

You should read his posts and e-mails.

And we should expect Bitcoin to change the entire centralization of the world created by the big government.

For me, a bitcoin ETF would make bitcoin practical for widespread adoption, but of course governments would try to make an effort to regulate institutions that file ETFs, going against the grain decentralization of bitcoin, in which case the ETF will be more or less influential. But any ETF issue will have its advantages and disadvantages, how the market will adapt and reflect subsequent needs, including how the regulations will be met by the market. Personally, I think that ETFs have many advantages in terms of sustainability for bitcoin in the future.

Small answer to this small question!

ETF is good for Bitcoin but companies like blackRock or Vanguard are harmful. The amount of money these companies control, it gives them enormous power to manipulate the Bitcoin market as per their wish. Can you see what is happening in the market now?

Everyone expected Bitcoin to reach 50000 once the ETF is approved. But in reality the price has dropped down which gives these big corporates the power to purchase more Bitcoins so that they can create a dominance in the market. A lot of drama is yet to be unfolded.

Probably Bitcoin ETFs approval is good side with many investor have large expected waiting for this announcement, but behind ETFs bitcoin approval have bad side with bitcoin price suddenly dump almost one week after approving bitcoin actually drop drastically.
Since first time ETFs bitcoin approval bitcoin can get raise most highest price but its not hold for longer time before bitcoin going drop lower price again. In my opinion, ETFs approval is bad side make bitcoin can't stable on higher price and failed break out above $50k for this month with potential almost close few percent left. Have bad side with ETFs approval looking for current bitcoin price, although many people celebrate after ETFs approval but face the truth with bitcoin drop drastically.

You need to remember one thing that we live in a centralized world and the government is the one who controls this world. ETFs or regulations are inevitable, what we need is to adapt to them. Do you have any way to combat or prevent these things from happening ? No, we can't do anything but complain and grudgingly accept it . So I think instead of complaining and not being able to change the problem, we should adapt to things.

Bitcoin is decentralized but people have forgotten that our world is centralized and bitcoin is just a small part of the world , don't expect it to completely change the world to our liking.

There is no way to control it, the market is dictating the trend of bitcoin, it is now digital gold, using it as everyday money is difficult, after all, if you have dollar and bitcoin, are you going to spend the bitcoin and keep the dollar? It makes no sense to accumulate a currency that will only lose value.

The whales have been keeping an eye on this for years, they are always one step ahead.

I see only positive things in the fact that Bitcoin has attracted the attention of such big players. Even before them, there were whales who sought to concentrate a large number of bitcoins in their hands, and if this trend continues, it will only lead to an increase in bitcoin prices. Bitcoin is becoming an asset that people want to own not for making daily payments, but as an investment. I don’t know if this is good or bad, maybe Satoshi didn’t want this, but we won’t be able to influence this in any way now, natural processes for the market are happening.

But it doesn't mean we should make a bad thing becomes worse, no one can stop whales and institutions to buy Bitcoin in large amounts, but having more regulation or any other centralized forms make the situation gone worse.

Many people want to attack Bitcoin e.g. censoring dirty Bitcoin, ordinals inscriptions, tightening KYC laws and whales want to own large share of Bitcoins. But fortunately, no one can ever stop Bitcoin by using these threats.

Bitcoin ETF is for me a good thing because it will possibly lure more potential investors that was previously hesitant and doubtful when it comes to acquiring this decentralized asset. The idea of SEC approval on Bitcoin ETF will possibly trigger a massive adoption on Bitcoin in the near future.

All things have two sides, good and bad. Things that work for the benefit of people are marked as good and things that work for the detriment of people are marked as bad. ETFs have some good things and bad things but people expressing their personal opinion helps people to accept the benefit. Whether Bitcoin ETFs are good or bad depends on the investor's goals and perspective. Its advantages and disadvantages are discussed based on different perspectives:

1.ETFs offer the highest growth avenues to sell or sell, to provide a differentiator for average investors.

2.ETFs are regularly monitored, which can help provide a sense of security to investors and reduce the risk of fraud or fraud.

3.ETFs are exchangeable stocks and are an easy option for investors in the traditional financial markets.

4.ETFs can hold different crypto currencies or asset portfolios, to provide investors with a diverse experience within the crypto space.

Disadvantages of Bitcoin ETFs:
Investors in Bitcoin ETFs rely on the fund's manager and the underlying exchange. If any of these parties face problems, it can affect the value of the ETF. All funds may be blocked.

IMO, ETFs indirectly influence bitcoin's decentralization. SEC approves 11 Bitcoin spot ETFs, now waiting for what will happen next.

Not only people on this forum consider bitcoin an investment rather than a currency, but even all of the bitcoin community now considers bitcoin an investment. I also regularly participate in discussions on social network X or reddit, I have never seen any discussion about bitcoin being a currency. Most of them only talk about investment, profits, price of bitcoin...

I agree with you, ETFs are a good thing because even without them, we cannot stop whales and institutions from buying bitcoin in large quantities. Once bitcoin becomes more popular it will certainly become more centralized, that is inevitable and it is not ETFs that make bitcoin more centralized.

No body would want that but still we can't tell anybody what to do with their Bitcoin. For there to be a good side there has to be a bad side, and for the good to be appreciated the bad has to be present so by the time they lose their assets due to hack for storing their Bitcoin on centralized platforms, they'll learn of self/Non custodial ways of storing Bitcoin and that'll make them to pick interest in owing Bitcoin and not buying Spot EFT that they don't have control over.


Bitcoin can be both, Bitcoin being a currency isn't happening anytime so if we're been honest with ourselves but that doesn't mean it won't happen in the future. To keep the spirit of adoption going, Bitcoin been accepted as a commodity is a welcome development because that'll help us reach to other audiences that'll all add to the popularity of Bitcoin and from there we can move forward.


The whales can only manipulate the market for a short period, and by the way if the whales want to manipulate the market they can do that without the Spot ETF, controlling the media is enough power to manipulate the market as the market is being influenced by the media with the spread to fud but all this have temporary effect on the market.

Let me try answering the questions.

My opinion is irrelevant. If another person wants to lock their bitcoin in a centralized platform, then who am I to tell him do otherwise? I'd rather want from the overwhelming majority to respect self-custody, but it is part of the Bitcoin spirit to respect freedom of choice as well.

Again, what I want is irrelevant. However, if my opinion holds even the slightest value, I prefer to allow each individual to determine for themselves the optimal perspective on Bitcoin. ETFs will definitely not destroy Bitcoin as currency, same as with any other centralized platform.

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The following quoted sentences are not questions, so I guess I have to comment them.

As it already happens with centralized exchanges.

As it already happens.

Pseudo-anonymity is the last thing an investor will look when buying an ETF. Nonetheless, it won't affect Bitcoin's pseudo-anonymity in the slightest.

The Bitcoin network has long been congested without any ETFs. We've been at 30-100 sat/vb months now, before ETF was approved. There are countless of reasons why there will be on-chain transactions.

You have raised some very good points. With ETF approval, the price and adoption of BTC will increase, and so will the centralization and regulatory checks. The anonymity of BTC holders is also in question.
I think we can not do much about this. Our only option is to hold whatever BTC we have and wait for the right moment.

Let me explain to you to eliminate any confusion. I am not trying to STOP anyone from creating any centralized platform, where they remove bitcoins from circulation, because that cannot be done. I am highlighting the "dangers" that these actions has on the rest of us that own bitcoins.

Do you understand that Bitcoin removed from circulation has a direct impact on the future of this technology? The whole incentive for Miners to mine are built around a reward system (Block reward + Miners fees) ... so with every Halving, the Block reward are significantly reduced and at some stage it will be so small that "miners fees" have to step up to replace it. So, Miners fees are generated when people pay for on-chain transactions and if a significant amount of bitcoins are locked in centralized (ETF) platforms like this, then miners will not have an incentive to mine.

Centralized ownership of coins also create "whales" and whales have significant power to manipulate prices. The ETFs are just one of the investment options, we will see other options popping up like mushrooms soon.

There are still a lot of people out there that are supporting this technology, because they were burnt by the Fiat system. (They want an alternative payment option that are not controlled by centralized Fiat whales) Unfortunately some people are so blinded by greed, that they are blinded by the dangers that this is bringing to this technology.

This forum is a place where we discuss topics from all angles, no matter if it is something that you do not believe it.  

It's not like Bitcoin has been doing great as a currency, and now, suddenly, the ETFs are killing the vibe. It's quite clear from this forum that people largely view Bitcoin as an investment, as something to hodl, not actively spend. The ETFs just provide a more traditional and more centralized way of doing that. Those who care about Bitcoin's decentralization will keep their coins and will keep using non-custodial wallets. But traditional investors can be drawn to Bitcoin ETFs, and this can basically create some new demand.
Ultimately, I think it's a good thing because it helps Bitcoin's reputation, making it look more legitimate. I don't think institutional investors will be able to take Bitcoin under their control this way.

Hello mate! I do not have any grudge against you and neither I am attacking you or your thread. What I have written earlier is what I noticed and checked with your past posting. What I still do not understand is why are creating a topic that is not your forte, what I do understand is that you are not happy about Bitcoin ETFs. My question to you is can you stop them? Next, Hongkong will be coming out with a Bitcoin ETF again my question to you is can you stop them?


Buying Bitcoin ETF does not mean that those buying are getting Satoshi, they are only subscribing to paperwork and they won't get anything. Depending on how Bitcoin performs they would be earning USD and nothing else. Where did you come up with the theory of centralization of Bitcoin? Wherein Bitcoin itself is decentralized as you do not have an understanding of what is exactly Bitcoin ETF means in the practical sense. Let me explain to you what is happening and why it is happening.

Financial institutions were against Bitcoin from the day it got hyped after 2017. They were always negative about it as they felt the threat and knew it would destroy their ongoing scam of fiat currency. To stop that they tried their level best by creating a negative image of Bitcoin before the pandemic. Post-pandemic everyone knew why Bitcoin was good for them and that was one of the reasons apart from institutional investors a lot of money came from personal investors.

These guys as in the financial institution in 2022 understood, how much profit they could generate for themselves if Bitcoin could be made a legal investment option. That is why they came up with ETFs and you cannot stop them, but you can only smile at them as they are now going to buy Bitcoin from the market and eventually promote Bitcoin through their investment and advertisements on Bitcoin.

This could be a big problem right here. Everyone was "clueless" at the start of their Bitcoin adventure, so if ETFs are to take over all the clueless investors, the community will be shrinking.


The dump after the approval was somewhat expected, it's just speculators "selling the news" and the approval was already priced in before it was announced. Some hotheads expected real fireworks in the first days, but we'll have to be more patient as the positive effects will be spread over time.

Everything has merits and demerits, but when it comes to Bitcoin ETFs we have both the sides as institutions may get more control and they may use this to manipulate the market but let's first ask ourselves, aren't the market currently being manipulated by whales? It doesn't matter whether it's manipulated by the whales of cyrpto or institutions. But more people will be aware of Bitcoin after ETF approval and there would be a possible increase in adoption as well. Let's adapt to the current situation because we cannot make any changes single handedly because if we keep worrying about the possible outcome then we might be left behind.

I do not know why you are attacking my thread, when ETFs are the hot topic at the moment. Everyone are talking about it and trying to analyze the impact of this on Bitcoin. I have DM'ed Hhampuz on several occasions and he is very happy with my posting, so stop trying to discredit me to possibly gain a spot for yourself in his signature campaign. 

In any way... a lot of people on this forum still believe that "centralization" of Bitcoin are wrong. Institutional investment are not going directly into Bitcoin, but rather a centralized database that are off-chain. (So it is not a piece of paper, but rather a digital entry into a centralized ledger)

Thank you for the other users that are making constructive contributions to this thread, it is an important "angle" to this relevant discussion.

Why not exactly? You can't stop anyone from buying bitcoins. If you could, it wouldn't be trustless and censorship-free, meaning it would lose its most important feature.
And if we don't have any control over who is buying it, there's no point of asking such question.
Plus, with large financial institutions buying it, there's less risk of it getting banned.

Are there actually any developers out there trying to make it useful as a means of payment? Looks like the lightning network is all we have, but it's far from perfection. It seems like the "community" (whatever that means) quietly accepted Bitcoin becoming mostly a speculative instrument.


I think you mean "pseudonymity". Yeah, this is probably the main threat. When most investors choose to hold ETFs rather than real bitcoins, there's a greater risk of regulators pushing for delegalisation of any non-KYC wallets and other services.

Bitcoin is for everyone. I think in the past there have been talks about its massive adoption and even the financial institutions won't be able to stop it and yet, here they are.

Whether we like it or not, there's no way to stop whatever fuels this adoption of Bitcoin and the advantages and disadvantages that this Bitcoin Spot ETF brings to it.

Whatever happens, happens and that's what we have to embrace. One thing is that for sure is, Bitcoin's move isn't stagnant as an investment based on these events.

Bitcoin Spot ETFs will bring more capital to Bitcoin market and it can help Bitcoin to get higher price. It is good but there are other things like with Bitcoin Spot ETFs and companies from Wall Street, it will force SEC or CFTC and even the USA. Congress to make new laws and stricter regulations on this market.

With more and stricter regulations, in future this market will get less volatility and it means we will see something similar to gold market. It will happen when Bitcoin marketcap becomes much bigger and maybe we will have two or three more cycles to get to that big marketcap.

https://companiesmarketcap.com/assets-by-market-cap/

I was about to say something similar. Remember the day before the official ETF approval, when SEC's twitter profile posted that bitcoin ETFs were official approved? The price shot up from around 44k to almost 48k, only to fall down further after they deleted the tweet and claimed it was a hack. The day after, when it was finally official, the market didn't react in a similar fashion. And now, it's moving downwards, contrary to everyone's expectations. But it's not surprising because many people were saying that a big correction is around the corner. Maybe the last one before the halving hype.

It initially became hype and even fake news about ETFs made the price of Bitcoin rise.
But when the ETF was actually approved, after that the price of Bitcoin began to fall and finally arrived at the current price which touched $40k again and previously almost reached $50k.

ETFs have always been a never-ending drama, which makes the price of Bitcoin even more volatile.
Somehow it ended, and what will happen to the Bitcoin market after the halving occurs.
Whether the ETF will support bitcoin to continue rising to reach ATH or will it just be a fortune.

1. Nothing wrong with this. People can choose to use Bitcoin in whatever way they want. It's hard money, if they want to use it purely as an investment or store of value through an investment broker that is perfectly fine.


2. Commodity, currency...these are just labels. Bitcoin is what it is. ETFs existing don't change what it is. ETF doesn't change one line of code of the bitcoin protocol. Nothing is destroyed by ETFs existing.


3. This is basically a repeat of #1, and again, nothing wrong with this. PEOPLE decide if they want to buy an ETF or buy actual Bitcoin. They are free to decide what they want to do.


4. If this is talking about the issuers of the ETFs, they literally just have to buy and sell however much bitcoin according to how much of the ETF the investors are buying and selling. The issuers don't decide how much bitcoin they buy and sell. This is not manipulation, it's just an investment vehicle. Also I have no idea why some people equate ownership of bitcoins to ownership over Bitcoin. The two are not remotely the same thing. Bitcoin is decentralized and "ownership", if anything, would be the many thousands of bitcoin nodes and miners, not who owns how many Sats.


5. Don't even know why this point is being made. People investing in bitcoin through an ETF don't have access to the actual bitcoin so pseudo-anonymity isn't even an issue because they don't own bitcoin.


6. At a time when seemingly every other day someone makes a thread on here complaining about the tx fees (even when the fees are back down to like $2 lol) you are claiming that we are going to see an issue with fees not being high enough in the future even as Bitcoin adoption grows massively. I have no idea why anyone would ever worry about this because it is the opposite of a problem for Bitcoin. At not point will not-filled blocks ever be an issue, the issue is getting L2 solutions ready so that everyone isn't trying to cram into tiny blocks and paying ridiculous fees in the future. So this is a total non-worry.



Bitcoin ETFs are not a Knight on a white horse, not sure anyone would ever describe it as that. But it is also not some evil thing lol. Nothing whatsoever wrong with ETFs. Nobody is forced to buy the ETF instead of buying Sats. People are excited about ETF because it means more buying of Bitcoin and therefore a higher price, and a higher price means more people adopting Bitcoin (cuz let's be honest almost everyone first gets into bitcoin for its ability to increase one's wealth), so it means Bitcoin growth in the world. It is silly to try to make ETFs to be some bad evil thing just because it is very different than owning actual bitcoin. It's an investment vehicle that will lead to a higher price of bitcoin and therefore more bitcoin adoption, that's it. Neither good nor evil, but good for bitcoin adoption.

1. Yes, the more they buy and horde, the higher the price will go.
2. I do not understand how ETFs will destroy the " goal of Bitcoin becoming a currency ".
3. Lol. Ownership matters of Bitcoin ETF do not influence the actual Bitcoin price. As long as the ETF investors are creating a demand for real Bitcoin, that is all that matters.
4. - 6. TLDR.

Not all expectations come true. With Bitcoin / Bitcoin ETF too.

"The large institutional financial organisations" doesn't care what I do. Why should I care what they do?

Bitcoin will be what the crypto market makes. My wishes don't matter here. I believe that bitcoin ETF has nothing to do with the bitcoin becoming a currency, because the bitcoin turned into an investment asset without ever having time to become a full-fledged currency.

The same thing happens on any crypto exchanger. Nothing fundamentally has changed.

And before this, they didn’t have control and couldn’t cause strong price fluctuations? Really?

This was already available in ordinary crypto exchangers with KYC, which are the majority.

Miners will receive rewards for mining as before (circa 1st century). I'm sure this should be enough for them (for the next hundred years). By that time, bitcoin ETF will become indifferent to everyone.

I always thought Bitcoin ETF "Knight on the white horse" was dog shit wrapped in cat shit (or something like that).

I am not sure why OP is against EFTs as they are just a way for big financial institutions to make profits and help small investors like us. What I do not understand is the reason to come up with such a shit post after ETFs got approved. If Kakmakr was so not into ETF then what kind of response he gave is questionable as it is not related to ETFshere. It looks like he was more concerned with scams and why? I believe it was totally out of context as scams do not relate to Bitcoin ETF. What I felt after going through his posting history is that he is into gambling and with the recent decision by Hhampuz to remove fossils from his signature campaign he is trying to act as a realistic and active participant of a signature campaign. I have zero clue what he is trying to gain from this thread after ETFs have been approved.

Practically ETFs are nothing but a piece of paper given to anyone investing in Bitcoin. Whereas we as a community have the real satoshis in our wallets and we are proud of it. ETFs for me is a way to gain control over those who want to invest in Bitcoin but are clueless. It is evident with the current price of bitcoin, & that ETFs are not the ones we thought that the price of Bitcoin would pump. On the contrary, they made the Bitcoin price go down initially and it will remain the same till halving.

They and we are both for profit so no one will buy large amounts of bitcoin and lock it up without doing anything. Furthermore, even without ETFs, we have no way to prevent wealthy people from buying the majority of bitcoin. Bitcoin is for everyone and it is a trading market and buying and selling is always happening as long as you have the money.

Even without ETFs, bitcoin would never become a currency. Don't try to blame ETFs for bitcoin's failure to become a currency when even investors like us are turning bitcoin into an investment. We made Bitcoin an investment even before ETFs existed.

I've had thoughts like yours for a long time, but because of the hype, I finally didn't continue with those thoughts because Bitcoin investor friends always thought that ETF approval could create bullishness. When we talk about bullish that means for me it's a positive thing but on the other hand there is a point that we forget institutions want to control the market as they please. This idea continues to be opposed by everyone I know and they ignore the negatives. I admit that the existence of this ETF is a time bomb for Bitcoin because the control of large owners is no longer in the community but in a large entity which already has experience in the global market. Therefore, people now have to become aware and pay attention to the Bitcoin market. Is a bullish increase occurring? or vice versa? Maybe with this incident there are many of us who admit and say: it turns out Bitcoin is better off not being infiltrated by big institutions because this will create more differentiation between us retailers and those institutional whales.

If they keep buying, am sure they can't keep holding, those that have bought in the pass are by now releasing some of their holding, this same organizations too can run loss when the market becomes unfavourable on them and they can't afford to continue holding at a particular time.


No, but from where you're taking it isn't as how it was, Bitcoin is a decentralized digital currency and there's nothing they can do about it, the whole issue with the bitcoin ETF is not something to mind it be focused on, they are only being dependent on the bitcoin market price and not the network itself.

Apparently, to every advantage their is always a disadvantage. The Bitcoin spot ETF gives investors more convenient and clear way to be exposed to the price movement of btc without much complexity there by increasing the adoption spread of Bitcoin
While the  regulatory uncertainty and the management fees could be a major problem.

1. Many platforms already did this, Binance, Coinbase etc, it's not only ETFs.

2. There's no relation ETFs will destroy Bitcoin as a currency, if you paid a house with Bitcoin, it means you're use Bitcoin as a currency regardless how much the amount is.

3. Same like number 1.

4. Same like number 1 and other rich people e.g. Nayib Bukele, Elon Musk etc.

5. Everyone has a choice to buy the real Bitcoin instead of the IOUs version.

6. Same like number 5.

You're overreacting ETFs will control Bitcoin when this case already happen since 2014 where Mt.Gox was the biggest centralized exchange. And it's definitely BAD.

Why are people afraid of manipulation from those funds because even without ETFs, the market is being manipulated by bigger players? Bitcoin and cryptocurrency has been a market rife with manipulation since its inception and it remains so until now, I think no one is unaware of that.

I'm not saying ETFs are good but everything has its pros and cons. Perhaps now funds like blackrock and greyscale are using their power and wealth to manipulate the market. But why don't we think further when in the future there will be many funds and investors participating in the market and helping the market become even stronger? And once the market gets bigger, price manipulation gradually disappears.

ETFs will indeed reduce bitcoin's decentralization, but that's the price we have to pay if we want bitcoin to become more popular.

Many of the fears that I thought about the bitcoin ETF before when it was approved, some things like what you mentioned in points 4 and 6, this will become a reality and will be easily manipulated by certain parties, especially by Blackrock itself which has a large enough fund to move the price of bitcoin or even carry out activities that can harm many real bitcoin investors due to price manipulation, but maybe if the financial companies that propose this bitcoin ETF will not stay silent with each other, because in my opinion they are also in the scope of competition, there will be conflict if one of them is detected manipulation and or kill each other. IMO

yes this is a destiny that we cannot interfere with, whether or not we agree with the bitcoin ETF will not have any influence on the outcome of the decision and what has happened, everyone has the freedom to use bitcoin or treat bitcoin.

I think ETFs are inevitable. If the SEC doesn't approve it this year, then as bitcoin becomes more popular they will find a way to regulate it. Maybe you don't expect ETF but I believe you also expect that bitcoin will become popular worldwide. And one thing you need to know is that for bitcoin to become popular in the world, it will be impossible to avoid the intervention of governments, legal agencies...Without their permission, I believe that bitcoin becoming popular in the world would never have happened. Our world is a centralized world controlled by the government, we cannot expect bitcoin to change the entire centralization of the world.

tl;dr is that there are pros and cons to having a Bitcoin spot ETF. But regardless if the pros outweigh the cons or vice versa, there's really nothing we can do, right? Bitcoin is permissionless and is both for your closest friends and for your toughest enemies.

These questions are valid and I think it just really depends on the person because we might all want different things or we might have different plans for the long-term

One thing for sure however is that etf approval will attract more investors thus more people trying to make transactions then making the mempool more congested so you are right in the next following months as the price of bitcoin increase and more people become interested bitcoin might not be the best cryptocurrency for everyday transactions

Everything that has advantages also has disadvantages. Institutional investors attract more money and attention to the Bitcoin space. Many people who never knew anything about the currency will begin to be aware of what Bitcoin stands for. Some persons would never have invested in Bitcoin if not for the ETF because they can't keep their keys or passwords safe.

But all this attention and increased Investment comes with a price which is centralisation and loss of privacy. The only reason why the SEC approved the ETF is because they have devised various mechanisms to control the sector.

We cannot stop these investors from acquiring Bitcoin because it is a free market but we can still maintain our privacy and enjoy decentralization. Nobody will force you to sell your coin to anybody, it's still a matter of choice. It will also be difficult for these institutions to control the market because Bitcoin is still decentralized. I sense that the government will target decentralized platforms shortly but for now, we still have a choice.

People will always invest in profitable areas. The only problem is that they are investing in the right commodity through the wrong channel. Sadly many of them don't know the implications of what they are doing because they don't have enough information about Bitcoin. Maybe a hack or bankruptcy of these centralized platforms will force them to learn more.

So, the much anticipated (under speculators) Bitcoin ETFs have recently been approved by the SEC. Most speculators bought into the hype, expecting a massive increase in the Bitcoin price.

The question you have to ask yourself is this :

1. Do you want large institutional financial organisations buying large amounts of bitcoins and then locking it up in centralized trading platforms?

2. Do you want Bitcoin to be a commodity or a currency? ETFs will destroy the goal of Bitcoin becoming a currency.

3. ETFs take direct investment capital into personal ownership of Bitcoin away and it pulls that capital into centralized trading platforms. (Those coins are owned by the trading platform, because they control the private keys)

4. Fiat whales get control over bitcoins and can be used to manipulate the Bitcoin price. (They control the traditional Fiat investment options, so they will gradually increase their ownership of bitcoins to control that too)

5. ETFs destroy pseudo anonymity, because it is highly regulated with strict KYC requirements implemented to identify every trader on their platform.

6. Bitcoin's future success rely on actual coins being transfered on the Blockchain, because it generates miners fees to reward the miners. What happens when the Block reward falls away and not enough transaction happen, because bitcoins are locked up in ETFs.

I hope people are not too blinded by greed to see the dangers of Bitcoin ETFs and the centralization of the tokens in Fiat controlled trading platforms.

Let's discuss..

Do you still think Bitcoin ETFs are the Knight on the white horse?