Bitcoin faces it's biggest threat in America

devachelekar

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Quote from: RodeoX on May 01, 2017, 09:07:12 AM

Quote from: ven_bug_trap on May 01, 2017, 06:15:41 AM

... (Correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't live in the US.)

I think you are correct in theory. However we have a very corrupt system compared to say Europe. If market forces were at work in the market now we would have $10/month 100GB service. We would pay $5/month for cable and our cell service would be $20, like in most of the rest of the world. But in America decades of influence and money have created an idiosyncratic and expensive system that is the laughing stock of my friends abroad. The same thing can be seen in pharmaceuticals. We pay twice what the rest of the world pays.

And I'm supposed to believe what ISPs and Cable providers say? After literally 30+ years of bullshit, consolidation, and underhanded dealing? America, you are about to get fooled a second time. That is a shame on you not them. If we go along with it, we don't deserve freedom.

Isps can kiss my ass if they try that shit....

Half of the working class and lower waged people in America would riot... ISPs would be committing suicide by MOB.. government overthrough utter chaos would insue the citizens of America are already at the point where being taken advantage of is going to make heads start rolling. Keep in mind guns are still extremely easy to get by everyday us citizens. Lmao I do not think that ISPs are stupid enough to follow through with this kind of censorship.

Checlets

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Quote from: RodeoX on May 01, 2017, 09:07:12 AM

Quote from: ven_bug_trap on May 01, 2017, 06:15:41 AM

... (Correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't live in the US.)

I think you are correct in theory. However we have a very corrupt system compared to say Europe. If market forces were at work in the market now we would have $10/month 100GB service. We would pay $5/month for cable and our cell service would be $20, like in most of the rest of the world. But in America decades of influence and money have created an idiosyncratic and expensive system that is the laughing stock of my friends abroad. The same thing can be seen in pharmaceuticals. We pay twice what the rest of the world pays.

And I'm supposed to believe what ISPs and Cable providers say? After literally 30+ years of bullshit, consolidation, and underhanded dealing? America, you are about to get fooled a second time. That is a shame on you not them. If we go along with it, we don't deserve freedom.

Isps can kiss my ass if they try that shit.... Half of the working class and lower waged people in America would riot... ISPs would be committing suicide by MOB.. government overthrough utter chaos would insue the citizens of America are already at the point where being taken advantage of is going to make heads start rolling. Keep in mind guns are still extremely easy to get by everyday us citizens. Lmao I do not think that ISPs are stupid enough to follow through with this kind of censorship.

RodeoX

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Quote from: ven_bug_trap on May 01, 2017, 06:15:41 AM

... (Correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't live in the US.)

I think you are correct in theory. However we have a very corrupt system compared to say Europe. If market forces were at work in the market now we would have $10/month 100GB service. We would pay $5/month for cable and our cell service would be $20, like in most of the rest of the world. But in America decades of influence and money have created an idiosyncratic and expensive system that is the laughing stock of my friends abroad. The same thing can be seen in pharmaceuticals. We pay twice what the rest of the world pays.

And I'm supposed to believe what ISPs and Cable providers say? After literally 30+ years of bullshit, consolidation, and underhanded dealing? America, you are about to get fooled a second time. That is a shame on you not them. If we go along with it, we don't deserve freedom.

ven_bug_trap

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I think that in this hypothetical hyper-monetised world of greedy ISPs who suck you dry, there would be a large market for the kind of ISP we have today. To me, it seems to be the same thing as with VPNs, where they profit from customers' dissatisfaction with their ISPs. I don't believe every ISP would somehow jack up their prices, as they are companies in competition with one another. If a group of ISPs raised their prices, another one would see an opportunity as a value proposition to the customer and lower theirs. Subsequently, if one company started offering the "extra benefits" of browsing Youtube, Facebook etc. for free, others would be forced to do the same, as demonstrated by Verizon offering far more attractive deals once Google Fiber was launched. (Correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't live in the US.)

Iranus

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Quote from: RodeoX on April 28, 2017, 12:17:37 PM

Without net neutrality there would never have been a bitcoin, and it is utterly illogical to think that ISPs are going to leave a billion dollars on the table because they have our best interests in mind.

It's not about having our best interests in mind, it's about having their best interests in mind. ISPs are in competition with each other - if one were to introduce a service as stupid as paying for certain popular sites and removing any part of net neutrality which isn't just illegal activity, people would switch to an ISP that lets them do things they want to. Economically it would be a terrible choice from their side.

Amph

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Quote from: Naokia980 on April 27, 2017, 06:12:51 PM

Isp simpy doesnt care about that. You just need to use vpn if you dont want to share you privacy with them.

i'm not enterily sure about the privacy of vpn they keep the log and can share if forced to do so

in any case if there is a possibility that your isp will block bitcoin, any proxy will do it fine, all this control they are trying to put on the world is detrimental and will do more damage than anything

and also this for now is not supported on other country and on some never will be, but i would take this opportunity and think that bitcoin really need his own private internet with a big mesh network or something, isp internet are not decentralized enough

maku

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I realize that net neutrality is in danger, but at the same time why ISP providers would target BTC if there is no plan to limit/restrict Bitcoin usage at all?
Even in case of censorship, you still be able to use VPN, right? In the worst case you will store your bitcoins online on blockchain.info or BTC.com and use VPN to access your wallet.

Quote from: darkangel11 on April 28, 2017, 12:37:37 PM

Also, why would you sell now when Bitcoin is at ATH?

You want to sell your coins exactly because it is at ATH. Sell high, rebuy later when price will drop.

darkangel11

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ISP companies are not together on it, they actually fight for a place on the market. I don't know the US market but in Europe we users don't have to beg to be connected or look for a provider, they come to us begging. Each month I throw away leaflets from at least 5 different companies that all have boxes in my building prepared in case someone changes their mind. Fiber, 6 months free, private IP, ftp server, just please sign up with us.
If one of them decided to raise the prices people would flock to the other one and since they are competing there's always going to be one that won't follow the crowd.
Also, why would you sell now when Bitcoin is at ATH?

RodeoX

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You guys are a lot more optimistic than I am. I believe a loss of neutrality would produce a fundamentally different internet. I think within a few years the price of service would skyrocket as people pay to add facebook or youtube to their plan. There could be basic internet service but then an endless set of options to pay for specific websites or open certain ports. It really would be up to your ISP to decide what you are allowed to do.
Most people I talk to (outside of the tech industry) simply do not understand what it means to move from an open and free internet to a metered and centrally controlled "view-net". I thought bitcoiners would understand better. Without net neutrality there would never have been a bitcoin, and it is utterly illogical to think that ISPs are going to leave a billion dollars on the table because they have our best interests in mind.

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Quote from: Naokia980 on April 27, 2017, 06:12:51 PM

Isp simpy doesnt care about that. You just need to use vpn if you dont want to share you privacy with them.

Every additional layer required to make something work loses users along the way. Unless a business server implemented built in VPN clients or personalized sandboxes information will always leak to the ISP.
That and most sites do not encrypt on normal internet so it gets to Tor or a blockchain based internet someday in the future possibly on ethereum or namecoin going old school.
http://www.computerworld.com/article/3043490/security/what-can-your-isp-really-see-and-know-about-you.html

Naokia980

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Isp simpy doesnt care about that. You just need to use vpn if you dont want to share you privacy with them.

Userperson321

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Net Neutrality is an issue that is debated a fair amount in buisness in America but fear not, for your freedom is safe. Remember that an ISP wouldn't block a website unless they have a financial or personal reason to do so. And if they do, just use a VPN to route the traffic. No matter how people try to block something, there is always a work around.

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Quote from: Emoclaw on April 26, 2017, 03:48:31 PM

Your ISP doesn't give a flying fuck about whether you use Bitcoin or not. They just want to charge Netflix extra for higher bandwidth.

That, plus I suspect it wouldn't be legal to do that anyway--as long as bitcoin isn't outlawed. What Rodeox has put forth is certainly something to think about, I just don't see it happening. Ever. And if they did pull some shit like that, we could find ways around it. In fact it'd give bitcoin an even greater allure.

Coin-Keeper

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Quote from: RodeoX on April 27, 2017, 02:31:04 PM

Quote from: darkangel11 on April 27, 2017, 02:03:42 PM

A couple questions:
1. Why would they make such restrictions while everywhere outside the US (with the exception of China) there are no such things? ...

2. Wouldn't that mean the most restrictive ISP's losing clients, which would quickly turn into a battle of who can make the most while imposing the least restrictions? ...

Good questions.
1. Why not? If I were an ISP I would be foolish to just let you use facebook without charging you a FB fee. I would confuse you with BS about speeds and Megabytes then bend you over and take every penny I can. No system will stand for long with money just sitting there to be taken. I heard all these arguments before when cable TV was new. It will make TV cheaper and better, you will never again watch a TV commercial because you will pay up-front. How'd that work out?

2. Yes. There will be some special ISPs that will not restrict your use. However you will pay a high price for them. And if they want they can change their mind and screw you anyway. Your internet use will be a choice made by others, not you.

Quote from: bustedsynx on April 27, 2017, 02:07:05 PM

Thus the proliferation of VPN services.

Unless your ISP says "Na, we are not going to allow it. We are going to track every keystroke and you are just going to STFU."

I'm not risking it. I am out in that scenario.

They are not going to forbid VPN connections. Corporations demand those connections to protect their digital wealth in "information/data". Further speed is not really an issue with BTC. Once connected to a good VPN you can bridge to TOR and nobody in the USA would ever know that either. Its what I do. I have never transacted any single sale or buy using a raw ISP connection, and hope I never will. In the absolute worst case scenario you would leave the USA to complete the sale of all your BTC and move on. That scenario is almost impossible having access to multiple corporate vpn networks here. I just can't really get there. I do however have concerns because my ISP at home provides 150 meg and is reasonably priced.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

Quote from: darkangel11 on April 27, 2017, 02:03:42 PM

A couple questions:
1. Why would they make such restrictions while everywhere outside the US (with the exception of China) there are no such things? ...

2. Wouldn't that mean the most restrictive ISP's losing clients, which would quickly turn into a battle of who can make the most while imposing the least restrictions? ...

Good questions.
1. Why not? If I were an ISP I would be foolish to just let you use facebook without charging you a FB fee. I would confuse you with BS about speeds and Megabytes then bend you over and take every penny I can. No system will stand for long with money just sitting there to be taken. I heard all these arguments before when cable TV was new. It will make TV cheaper and better, you will never again watch a TV commercial because you will pay up-front. How'd that work out?

2. Yes. There will be some special ISPs that will not restrict your use. However you will pay a high price for them. And if they want they can change their mind and screw you anyway. Your internet use will be a choice made by others, not you.

Quote from: bustedsynx on April 27, 2017, 02:07:05 PM

Thus the proliferation of VPN services.

Unless your ISP says "Na, we are not going to allow it. We are going to track every keystroke and you are just going to STFU."

I'm not risking it. I am out in that scenario.

bustedsynx

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Thus the proliferation of VPN services. When there's censorship, there will always be people trying to go around it.

darkangel11

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A couple questions:
1. Why would they make such restrictions while everywhere outside the US (with the exception of China) there are no such things? Even the Cinese don't make you pay premium, they just block what they don't like.
2. Wouldn't that mean the most restrictive ISP's losing clients, which would quickly turn into a battle of who can make the most while imposing the least restrictions?
If I were an owner of an ISP and saw such opportunity, I would start a campaign showing my company as the most liberal and allowing for free use of cryptocurrencies and earned much more than those restrictive providers.

Blocking the use of certain sites and demanding payments for access will surely lead to protests, like in Europe when the European Parliament voted the ACTA treaty.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/6407227/Protests-erupt-across-Europe-against-ACTA

RodeoX

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For me it is a huge thing simply because it introduces the ability for an ISP to control access to bitcoin. As mentioned above, your Netflix account may be a bigger loser. There will be endless fees to view content, have streaming speeds, whatever your ISP dreams up.

And why would they let you use bitcoin for free? Your ISP could decide that you owe a fee for using their network for your bitcoin use. Right now no one really owns the internet, but this would put ISPs in the driver seat and allow them to meter, monitor, and restrict your use of all the internet. I can't envision a world where an ISP could do this, then not do it. That would be leaving money on the table, -an illogical act.

It's a deal breaker for me.

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Quote from: RodeoX on April 26, 2017, 08:54:59 AM

There are endless threads here about how some evil entity will crush bitcoin and I have learned to ignore them on grounds of their lack of merit. No one ever presents a logical method to accomplish this, even a logical reason is often absent. However that may be about to change and I now have to consider selling off my bitcoin holdings before a collapse in price.

The issue is net Neutrality. Without it your bitcoin use may be limited to whatever your ISP decides for you. They may cut it off or make it a TOS offense. They may demand a fee for you to use it, really anything is possible. But make no mistake, your bitcoins will not be under your exclusive control anymore. For this reason I will be considering a 50% divestment and a possible total dumping of bitcoin. I will keep enough for the geo-cache contest, but that may be it.

Thanks guys, it has been a good project and can continue elsewhere in the world from here!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/05/technology/trumps-fcc-quickly-targets-net-neutrality-rules.html?_r=0

From what you analysed there, I must confess that the threat from that angle is real whether we believe it or not but my concern is that, it does not necessarily means the end or the crash of bitcoin simply because of the following reasons;

1. Bitcoin itself has been able to build a fortress around news like this and even tougher ones that people have used to predict the end of bitcoin but it came back stronger.

2. Also, this threat is more or less related to the United States which has not been new and if this is coming, I dont see it having a maximum impact considering the number of users around the world.

freedomno1

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Sigh the problem is that we have America setting the damn rules.
Hence we’re in danger of having a system that combines the worst features of a world with network neutrality and a world without it.
http://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/4/26/15436104/network-neutrality-ajit-pai
I wish it was possible to move ICANN to another country but that's a pipedream.

darkangel11

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He stopped nine companies from providing discounted high-speed internet service to low-income individuals.
It's all about the money. They don't want people to have free or cheap access, they want to suck them dry. This is like a counter anti-monopoly law made by the monopoly itself and Trump has shown that he's there to serve the needs of the whales, not the poor.
Don't worry though they don't care about bitcoin. They could as well limit your access to your bank and demand a fee. It won't happen.
"Don't have money to buy internet at high prices? Maybe you don't need it, get a better job you lazy asshole." D. Trump 2017 Grin

Emoclaw

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Your ISP doesn't give a flying fuck about whether you use Bitcoin or not. They just want to charge Netflix extra for higher bandwidth.

Inicnat

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Why bitcoin could collapse?? The tech of Blockchain it is just more and more used, right?

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

There are endless threads here about how some evil entity will crush bitcoin and I have learned to ignore them on grounds of their lack of merit. No one ever presents a logical method to accomplish this, even a logical reason is often absent. However that may be about to change and I now have to consider selling off my bitcoin holdings before a collapse in price.

The issue is net Neutrality. Without it your bitcoin use may be limited to whatever your ISP decides for you. They may cut it off or make it a TOS offense. They may demand a fee for you to use it, really anything is possible. But make no mistake, your bitcoins will not be under your exclusive control anymore. For this reason I will be considering a 50% divestment and a possible total dumping of bitcoin. I will keep enough for the geo-cache contest, but that may be it.

Thanks guys, it has been a good project and can continue elsewhere in the world from here!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/05/technology/trumps-fcc-quickly-targets-net-neutrality-rules.html?_r=0

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