Topic: Bitcoin has no intrinsic value (Read 499 times)

Yeah! this kind of speculation has been said 10 years ago and now they regret what they've said and only you can hear them say 'if only" and "if only". You too, if you are not aware of what's the reality of bitcoins and the opportunity that they will bring to the masses, also lose the chance to buy low and sell high which most people have regret already. Now is not the time to speak about mere speculations rather we look at the crypto market and the liquidity, numbers, and companies that have already gotten their hands on bitcoins.

This depends on your goal but the only person that can answer that is yourself.

If you have the means of investing for long-term, then I highly recommend so. There are lots of people (including myself) have profited in investing into cryptocurrencies (BTC to be specific). It has an inflationary nature where its value may increase substantially in the following years. But again, this is subject to certain risks that are associated with it.

If I where you, I suggest watching videos about BTC as there are tons of materials available in the internet. Upon learning everything, you decide if you think it is best investing.

some say real estate is the big win.. but thats only if you have the money upfront to buy it whole and then flip it quick, then rinse and repeat..

however when "investing" into a house by paying a mortgage long term..
imagine the initial purchase price, for instance $200k. but with mortgage interest and the insurances, maintenance, security and modernisations that many mortgage companies like to see the person do to protect the property. the actually amount of money put into that soon turns into $300k-$400k over a few decades. meaning to break even you have to hope the housing market doubles by the time you want to sell.

also if during the mortgage, you lose your job and skip just a few payments. most banks claim that the first few years you are paying off the insurance and interest only and yet to pay anything towards a % of ownership of the actual property. and so losing your job in the first few years means its all gone, you lose everything. you get nothing back and lose the house.


'total loss' is a bit of an over statement.
no one on the planet can mine for less than $30k and no one is buying for less than $40k
so even if you bought at say $45k . you will always find willing buyers for $30k plus
i think we are safely way above the realm of 'bottom' being below $20k. so the new 'zero' is not zero.

yes in the realm of possibilities the new 'zero' might go down to $25k with new asic efficiencies but no incremental hash competition. but to have a true 'zero' of 'zero'. bitcoin would literally need to have a massive unrepairable flaw/bug that is a 'killer' of crypto.

as long as bitcoin stays as POW ii cant see 'zero' being below $20k again. where this bottom slowly moves up over time.. but if it does a ethereum style 'detonation' flip to POS then yes the new 'zero' can go down to a couple dollars

So is there a better place to invest our money now than here?

There is no guarantee that this is indeed the best and there is no guarantee that there are even better ones like bitcoin, right?
We all know that this could be a blunder, but this is a risk, isn't there a risk when investing?
At least when we are here for now and in the next few years we will still be safe from the risk of total loss considering bitcoin is still growing

Bitcoin has value because it cannot be printed. Bitcoin has a mining cost, which most cryptocurrencies do not have on the POS algorithm.If you invest in bitcoin, you won't get x10 at the end of the year, but you will keep your savings. So far, bitcoin is the most decentralized and independent cryptocurrency in the world.

bitcoins PRICE is speculative.. but that PRICE does sit within a value window
that window is between $30k to $70k right now

easiest way to see if a buy is a good or bad investment is to see if the price is good value or bad value in a easy to understand scale
EG

What is your standard for investment? You better follow that standard of yours whether it means investing in Bitcoin is good or bad. At least you won't be having regrets in the end. Or perhaps get to know Bitcoin more and reconsider your standard.

I'm afraid much of Bitcoin's price right now is speculative, so decide for yourself if this means Bitcoin is a good or bad investment. Everything could potentially lose its value. Nobody is assuring anybody that something will remain valuable throughout eternity. But it seems to me the potential of Bitcoin is bright. I don't know if you share the same view.

If you look at it solely as an investment opportunity then yeah, maybe there are better ways of pure investments, but some investors believe in the concept of bitcoin, its potential as a disruptive technology, and the potential of economic freedom it brings to the individual, so I would say that it has intrinsic value for some people, it depends how you look at it. To me, BTC and crypto, in general, are a continuation of '80s hacker culture to some extent.

If you have any doubt about Bitcoin then you should avoid investing on it.And we know that Bitcoin is much popular now and its truely decentralized.So better if invest how much you can afford.

I feel that we are similar in our understanding of what gives Bitcoin its present value.

Though I believe the blockchain is the real value of the Bitcoin network and the coin only acts as lubrication for the needs of the distributed ledger. The POW is correlated with the cost of mining, the block reward gives incentive for the cost of equipment and electricity as well as noise/heat pollution.
The tx fee is the price to store information on the ledger.

On a side note, I posit that the mining industry (ASIC and GPU) manufacturers have a hand in price development because they control the distribution of mining equipment.  In the beginning Bitmain was only accepting Bitcoin for machines to produce Bitcoin. Seemingly rather self-fulfilling.

There is a documentary (The Price of Everything) that explains why the art industry keeps its prices in check. May shed some light on why BTFD is such an important concept when it comes to Bitcoin.

https://soap2day.cool/watch-movie/watch-the-price-of-everything-free-939.5368558

-PoolMinor

When you invest your money in any asset a certain degree of risk needs to be accepted, if for you the risk that investing in bitcoin entails is too high for you for one reason or another I do no have any problem with it, find another asset in which you are comfortable to invest then do so and call it a day, it is that simple, now technically there is not really anything that has intrinsic value as things do not have value just for existing, they have value for their characteristics, and if you think that a decentralized network in which you can send your money all over the world without any third party interfering with it has a value of zero then that is your call, but do not expect everyone to agree.

I can see the need for low-cost, cross-border money transfers, so do you think this has intrinsic value
Nowadays, people are gradually getting a better view of Bitcoin. With its massive adoption, the demand for it is not small, and the supply is limited, not to mention the loss due to the holders, the value of BTC will be able to go further.

"... #Bitcoin is a commodity money, "digital cash system".

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_money

"Commodity money is money whose value comes from a commodity of which it is made."

The intrinsic (base) value of bitcoin is from electricity, CPU time and cryptography (math / pow).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_money "

- https://twitter.com/BitcoinFX_XBT/status/1510943103431380992

Commodity money wiki - Excerpt: "Commodity money is money whose value comes from a commodity of which it is made. Commodity money consists of objects having value or use in themselves (intrinsic value) as well as their value in buying goods. This is in contrast to representative money, which has no intrinsic value but represents something of value such as gold or silver, in which it can be exchanged, and fiat money, which derives its value from having been established as money by government regulation. ..."

...

"When satoshi wrote the whitepaper and launched #Bitcoin #BTC had zero dollar value.

The first exchange rates were calculated as follows ...

- https://web.archive.org/web/20091229132610/http://newlibertystandard.wetpaint.com/page/Exchange+Rate

Excerpt: "Our exchange rate is calculated by dividing $1.00 by the average amount of electricity required ..." ..."

- https://twitter.com/BitcoinFX_XBT/status/1510945795255775239

...

" ... "... to run a computer with high CPU for a year, 1331.5 kWh, multiplied by the the average residential cost of electricity in the United States for the previous year, ..." ..."

- https://twitter.com/BitcoinFX_XBT/status/1510946020640841730

...

"Excerpt: "... $0.1136, divided by 12 months divided by the number of bitcoins generated by my computer over the past 30 days."

- https://web.archive.org/web/20091229132610/http://newlibertystandard.wetpaint.com/page/Exchange+Rate

Technically only bartering existed when satoshi released #Bitcoin to the public."

- https://twitter.com/BitcoinFX_XBT/status/1510946817227333635

...

"Arguably, bitcoins have always had a (base) "intrinsic value" as intangible commodity money, as above.

Of course, today's pricing stems from other market factors, finite supply (supply and demand) etc, etc.

Something is only ever worth what someone else is willing to exchange!"

- https://twitter.com/BitcoinFX_XBT/status/1510948619536547843

 

I think bitcoin is not the best way to invest your money.  You still have a lot of options and decisions to make but the free market is the core of bitcoin, the reaction to bitcoin's value is the free market.  Fundamentally in my opinion, bitcoin is the hope to change the financial game - where the free market gets a free currency.  Hesitation is a normal state in investing but looking at bitcoin's value history represents a testament to the fact that bitcoin's real value derives from the beliefs people aspire to.

Says who that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value? Is this your lack of understanding of Bitcoin's potential impression or you're just a troll?
You don't need to ask if Bitcoin is the best way to invest money, all you need to do is to check the performance of the Bitcoin market when the world businesses and economies barely survive during the total lockdown.
Check the performance of the market over the years right from its creation and the number of people who are making financial freedom through Bitcoin.

If Bitcoin will be worthless, it would vaporize when the government, SEC, the Chinese shut down mining, etc. Besides, the government now understands that Bitcoin is inevitable and if it is going to be worthless the institutions won't be the major investors in this year's market.

With the news like :
https://www.business2community.com/crypto-news/michael-saylor-says-its-bitcoin-initiative-has-been-a-success-for-microstrategy-02468422

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-hodlers-targeting-100k-is-what-s-preventing-40-price-drawdown-data-suggests/amp

Companies and people are already investing in Bitcoins even right now and are looking forward to grow their investments rather sell them, sooner or later one has to understand that it's more fragile to invest in fiats since government does not have a control of war and pandemic or things like that. If the world collapse we wouldn't have much to hang with therefore with Bitcoins with many whales unwilling to sell their coins we still have a chance to not only invest and grow but also answer such questions with solid ground.

Do you back up Gold ?
No ! Why ?
That's because gold is essential, it has its own intrinsic value which means that it does not need the backing up. It's the same with Bitcoins to an extent. It's intrinsic value comes from the people who are holding it and who trusts it.

intrinsic value, is the value in-of-itself..
so all the idiots thinking bitcoin needs to be backed by something separate.. have no clue

if you think intrinsic value is based on some thing separate a thing needs to be backed by that has nothing to do with the thing your valuing..  your wrong

EG bank notes in the 1920's intrinsic value was not that they were backed by gold.
banks notes intrinsic values(features) was the laws that ensured that bank notes were usable to pay court fines, taxes and retail products far easier than another currency.
the intrinsic value(financial) is based on things like minimum wage that give it a notable minimum value.

bitcoin would not exist if it were not for the mining. so mining is the essential thing of bitcoin

take ethereum. its intrinsic value is also PoW mining which gives ethereum the base value of atleast $2k. (no im not talking about the $3k price)
when ethereum 'detonates' to become PoS. that intrinsic value switches to PoS which has a value in of itself of ~$1.50 yep over 1000x less value. meaning that you will expect a huge price correction after the detonation because everyone suddenly PoS signing blocks for only a couple dollars would happily sell down the market price all the way down to maybe $3 and still profit

yep PoS intrinsic value is far far less than PoW intrinsic value.
as for the intrinsic values(features) well ethereum is still begging the many sidechains and tokenisations so ethereums intrinsic values stay the same, but this is not enough to keep the value(financial) at the same support

For an asset to have intrinsic value it shouldn't necessarily be backed by something or generating "cash flow." Take gold, for example: what gold is backed by? Obviously, this would be a stupid question to ask because it is gold that has always been used to support the value of other things but not the other way around. Does gold have intrinsic value? If we forget for a moment that value is always subjective, then we may say that it is the unique physical characteristics of gold that give it the intrinsic value that the vast majority of people recognize. Can we say the same when it comes to bitcoin? Like gold, Bitcoin does have unique traits that some people have already managed to understand and accept as part of their life. However, the problem is these unique characteristics of Bitcoin can't exist on their own, they can't survive without human beings supporting them by running full nodes, mining, and forming the necessary community of developers and users. In other words, bitcoin doesn't have intrinsic value because it disappears if stopped being supported.

"In finance, the intrinsic value of an asset usually refers to a value calculated on simplified assumptions. For example, the intrinsic value of an option is based on the current market value of the underlying instrument, but ignores the possibility of future fluctuations and the time value of money." - Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(finance)

Now let's make examples of other digital things that has value : Skins and add-ons in Online Games like Counter-Strike. (People pay $10 000 for a unique skin for their 9mm) / Virtual property in the Metaverse has market value, because there are a market for it.

You do not have to touch something ..for it to have value. 

In my view, What is the intrinsic value of Bitcoin?
Many argue that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value because it is not backed by anything and does not generate cash flow.
Moreover, Bitcoin is actually backed by a very secure network that is used as a preeminent asset. We can see that there are five factors that become the intrinsic value of Bitcoin, namely:
1. Security
2. Decentralization
3. Scarcity
4. Eternity/ Immutable
5. Utilities

Conclusion
The intrinsic value of Bitcoin cannot be compared with other traditional assets because Bitcoin is a new type of asset. Bitcoin is still trying to find a place among other assets, and it is too early for us to determine Bitcoin's intrinsic value unanimously. The intrinsic value of bitcoin is likely to change based on people's perceptions and the future growth of Bitcoin adoption.

Supply and demand is the mechanism of price discovery. The profit comes from buying low and selling high. This is known as speculation. There's no other way to profit from owning Bitcoin, aside from shitcoin forks and airdrops, that are rare and unpredictable.


Who said anything about Bitcoin use? It's a topic about the origins of Bitcoin's value.

golds intrinsic value(financial) is derived from its mining costs of diesel and sluice machines
golds intrinsic values(feature) is derived from its use in the electronic and jewellery industry

bitcoins intrinsic value(financial) is derived from its mining costs of electric and asic machines
bitcoins intrinsic values(features) is derived from its use as a payment and investment utility

unlike fiat which requires people to hire lawyers and seek financial accountants and also bank managers to set up trusts and off shore holdings. bitcoin can do all this for free by setting up a multisig

unlike fiat where inheritance plans and such require lawyers, bank managers and accountants. bitcoin can set this up using timelocks and privkeys distributed between family

bitcoin can do many many things by itself without middlemen that fiat cant
bitcoin can even do more financial movements than the physical gold. cheaply

yea you cant make jewellery out of bitcoin(tangible) but you can easily prove ownership of it
yep a gold coin/ingot/bar has no identifier that puts a claim to any certain owner. so take it out of your house safe, and you have a hard time proving who owns it.
(try to engrave it.. someone can easily smelt it down and remove any identifier)
bitcoin however can easily prove ownership via signatures, and near impossible for someone to remove that identifier or move the value to their own identifier without your authorisation

Start by understanding how new Bitcoins are created or generated. The amount increases through mining. How do you mine Bitcoins? Can you do it with an old phone? No. Can you do it with a cheap laptop nowadays? No. Can you do it with a brand-new computer? No.

So what do you need? You need ASIC miners who are developed just to mine Bitcoin. Are they cheap and available on shops worldwide? No they are not. They are quite expensive and in most cases need to be pre-ordered because there aren't enough to support the demand. Is 1 ASIC miner enough? No, you need hundreds and thousands of them to be able to compete against the biggest mining firms in the world.

That's just one part of the story. You also need plenty or electricity to power up these hungry freaks of nature. Electricity costs money. As you can see, a lot of work needs to be done just so that you can have a chance to take part in a lottery, where if you are lucky you will win the main prize. The main prize is the block reward. Once you get your hands on those coins, you know you didn't get them cheaply with all the work and money you spent to prepare for that moment. Once they are in your wallet, you will value them.

Before anyone says you don't need thousands of miners to mine. I know that. You can have just one and divert your hashrate towards a mining pool where you will get an equivalent share of the coins once they find a block. Solo mining is an impossible task nowadays. 

I've been following Bitcoin and the cryptocurrency industry since 2009, and I'm still not sure what to think about Bitcoin long-term as a store of value. Economically speaking, it seems like it will have the same result as fiat currencies that are not tied to anything of intrinsic value.

In many of the conspiracy channels I follow on Telegram, there is a lot of discussion about Bitcoin losing all of its value as part of a thing called Devolution, which refers to the idea that Donald Trump and the US and other white hat militaries throughout the world are running a dragnet to catch all the bad guys.

As crazy as that sounds, there are some things that have been predicted about the crash of Bitcoin ( 1: the Three Gorges Dam breaking and destroying most of the Bitcoin mining servers; and 2: Bitcoin becoming environmentally unusable compared to alternatives) that seem like legitimate threats.

the PRICE is speculative.

EG
gold PRICE speculates between $1k to $2k
but golds VALUE sits at about $900..
yep no one can get gold for less than $900 and so golds underlying VALUE is $900

if while the lowest cost of acquisition was $900, the price speculated to say $3k then that difference of $2.1k speculation is a "bubble" where that hyped up PRICE can crash back down below $2k and get close to the $900 value at worse case.

bitcoins VALUE is near $30k. and while the price is at the moment $40k. it has reached $70k which that $70k PRICE was a bubble that corrected down again.
but the price has not dropped below the $30k value while the VALUE amount was at that $30k amount

..
bitcoins intrinsic value is not the price.. the 'store of value' amount of bitcoin is not the price.
once people realise that the 'value' and price are different measures. then people can see the difference.
and when people learn what the real VALUE number is. then when the PRICE moves up but the VALUE is not moving up at the same scale/rate. people can realise when the PRICE is speculating into the realms of bubble

in short..
yes the PRICE is based on random sentiment and sometimes empty reasons.. but the VALUE has reasons and math and actual costs and physical reason for existing

Everything can lose its value in an instant. For example, why is gold valuable? Because it's scarce. Why is Bitcoin valuable? Because it's useful and because it's rare. These are the factors that make a product valuable.

I believe that he created it as a better currency and not as a payment system. If you think that the sole purpose of satoshi was to create something that you could earn profit from, then you never understood what he stood for. The decentralization part of bitcoin is the main reason, and it is a currency which means that there is a currency in the world where politics could not impact it and change it.

In regular nations, we keep seeing nations print money all the time and this devalues currency and the worse they act towards money and economics, the poorer you get whereas in crypto nothing like that could happen and nobody can print it, which is the power of bitcoin and why it was created.

It's true that the payment system was the real intention of why Satoshi created it but we all know that it's really not what has given Bitcoin the value it has today. It derives its value from the perceived angle of investment. It's not only newbies who get on the bandwagon that it's an investment opportunity, veterans too are involved. If Bitcoin were solely for decentralized payment system as conceived then it should be like stable coins whose value remain the same or almost the same year in and year out.

Is it a must that you should "invest" in Bitcoin?

If you feel there is a much better way which you think you know, then put your money there. Nobody is forcing you to own some bitcoins. It's a free world.

Ok, Mr Financial advisor, explain to us how Bitcoin generates value?

Oil could lose value and become worthless
Amazon stocks could lose value and become worthless
Gold could also lose value and become worthless
So what's your point?

The same small voice that assures you that Bitcoin could lose value and become worthless.

This is BS. Bitcoin generates profit from supply and demand. And "speculative trading" is not the main use of Bitcoin. Sure some people use it that way too but it is ALSO used as a currency and savings account. Look Africa. These examples prove your "purely speculative trading" claim very wrong.
https://youtu.be/qvwqoYSani0

The term intrinsic value has two meanings - financial and numismatic. Financial meaning only applies to stocks and other financial instruments, it's basically an objective value of how profitable this instrument can be based on its economic performance. This is not applicable to Bitcoin, because Bitcoin generates profit purely from speculative trading. The second meaning, the numismatic one, applies to coins - it is the value of the metal a coin is made of. Bitcoin is digital, so it has no intrinsic value in this sense.

There's nothing wrong with not having intrinsic value. Gold doesn't have one, gems don't have one. In fact it's good that Bitcoin is money in pure form, just like fiat money, because other uses don't interfere with its supply and demand.

1. Bitcoin is not experimental. It has been around 13 years, it runs on open source code which means that anyone can check the code and verify how it operates. Every single line of code. So there is zero question marks about how it operates and on what rules it operates. Also, it does not operate on any website. It operates on those thousands of machines that keep up the one and only Bitcoin blockchain.

2.1. Bitcoin could evaporate? No. Bitcoin runs on thousands of miners and nodes around the world. To be able to disappear, all these machines would need to be destroyed and people running them to be killed. Or else we can just run it on new machines. So this evaporating is kind of impossible to achieve.

2.2 If you mean by evaporating that it's price could go to zero tomorrow, again you need to think more about what would need to happen for that to become reality. Bitcoins price comes from supply and demand. And as long as there is demand (buyers) the price cannot go to zero. So price to go to zero there would need to be suddenly ZERO people in the whole planet who wants to buy Bitcoin. How would that happen? Only way would be if something better money gets invented and we have nothing better in the world at the moment. And even if we invent something better in lets say 200 years, it would be slow transition taking years from older monetary system to the new one. Just like it takes years now to move from fiat standard to Bitcoin standard.

I think it's a matter of perception for each person. When they may not accept the fact that it creates economic value, denying the things that BTC brings will not help you progress if you keep your perspective. At that point, Let's put yourself in the situation and assume that you are assuming. It just comes back to extreme negative when it declares BTC to be worthless. I'm curious if you invested in it or not and profited. Or how about a loss? I am also very neutral about many things that it brings, but I admit that I have earned money to pay for my current life. The difference here you may not realize, but do not think negatively. It's a problem that many people are very satisfied or happy with what it has created.

Nobody said bitcoin is the only and the best way to invest your money. You got that part wrong. You may decide to invest 1-2% of your total wealth and still be a crypto investor.

Your concerns are well grounded however. Bitcoin may indeed evaporate tomorrow without leaving a trace. It is written (or used to be, haven't checked the domain for a while) on the bitcoin.org website. It is experimental tech which nobody knows how it is going to end up.

Just because stocks went up higher during the last decade you don't invest 100% into stocks. You diversify.

it depends on what you understand bitcoin as. I don't think that Bitcoin can just become worthless in future time without the signs indicating its irrelevant of future devalues.. some people kicking against that bitcoin is not an asset, so what is bitcoin, is very obvious that some asset become disvalue in reference time but it will take long periods such will happen.. using gold as illustration, before was threading in the market, but right now it has it limitations, because it potentials and firm has reduced because of existence of bitcoin, so before bitcoin can be worthless another thing that is greater than bitcoin will be into existence.

You could really say the same about any fiat currency. They are all just units of value we use to exchange for goods or services at a later point. Now, Bitcoin is a lot more volatile than most fiat currencies so that is where the distinction really comes into play. If you woke up tomorrow and discovered that the savings in your bank account could only buy 80% of what they bought yesterday, you'd likely be very annoyed. It can go up in value as well, but people generally like stability and consistency. I have a feeling that for Bitcoin at least it will improve over time as the amount of holders goes up and this should bring the volatility down. It's actually rather useful having a global currency that does not have to sit between the whims of local exchange banks.

The exact same goes for Gold, Silver and other precious commodities. If people would stop using them for making jewelry and don't look at them as a save way to store money than the price would be a complete other. It all depends on supply and demand, and what investors think the price should be in the future. The exact same thing holds for bitcoins and other crypto currencies. As long as there are other investors who believe in their value we will have an active market to buy and sell cryptos. Just one investor will make sure that Bitcoins don't become worthless. Just imagine a new very big gold mine is being created increasing the gold supply by x2, the price would drop overnight. With bitcoins that can't happen, we can't just find a big supply nobody have heard of overnight. The limited supply of bitcoins is what makes it so valuable.

Try and change the title because it gives wrong information about bitcoin. Bitcoin is an asset, it is digitally created but it has an intrinsic value.

I can not say it is the best way to invest but it is one of the ways to earn passive profits. Just hold, leave it for long time and make profit from it.

If early adopters were thinking like this, they will not buy bitcoin and nothing will be like institutions that are now investing in bitcoin. If institutions are also thinking like this now, they will not also invest.

Nothing has intrinsic value. Value is subjective.

People who don't understand bitcoin, often have not read about the Austrian School of Economy.

BITCOIN is the network with the blockchain.. you cannot take bitcoins off the bitcoin network. thats the whole premiss, promise and security of bitcoin. the blockchain secures bitcoins to the blockchain..
and YOU literally in the same paragraph of saying you never said anything bad about bitcoin, ended the same paragraph by saying in your silly minded view that bitcoin(the actual bitcoin blockchain network) 'can never offer'

LN is a different network .. the HINT is in the meaning of the N in LN
LN does not even use satoshis' it makes payments and accounts for fee costs in millisats. using a message format that the bitcoin network cannot even understand

so please stop deluding yourself and others that your altnet is the proposition people should shift over to by stop using the bitcoin network

grow up and actually learn what the bitcoin network is. and then learn that other networks pretending to be bitcoin are not bitcoin.

LN is a separate network that allows promises of future settlements of MULTIPLE currencies.
LN is not a bitcoin thing. LN is a multi asset thing.

LN is not a bitcoin layer(like a skin of an orange fruit... its a hybrid tree branch connecting multiple fruit together.)
or if you want a different analogy. its not a bitcoin highway.. its a bridge to a different nation where diversity happens where everyone has to 'ride share' and no one can independently own their own vehicle solo on this separate nation

oh and by you disliking the whole 'bitcoin should not be used for 'coffee/donation' amounts. well then the unbanked people earning say $2 in 3 days are not going to be able to buy bitcoin to then lock up to then play with the LN promissory notes (LN smart contracts are a promise without the settlement aspect)

as for your obsession with the altnets.. just check your post history for endless examples of you advertising LN.. heck you even advertised it here with your silly uptopian falsehoods.

LN is at best a niche side service. its not a unque bitcoin only feature. its not even the same network as bitcoin not the same unit of measure as bitcoin. plus it just doesnt work to scale

imagine that wiki wanted to accept LN balance. they would need to set up either thousands of small balance channels with regular donators. whereby those donators have to also allow some of their locked balance to be used by others routers. or they would need to fiund a LARGE channel partner that can cope with many thousands of users routing through them.. in both cases it does not work in the real world..

as for you pretending you have never suggested that people should stop using bitcoin for the donation/coffee/small amounts billions of people find essential amounts..
again check your post history.. here is just one of many examples

your major problem is that when you imagine people talking about scaling BITCOIN. and wanting to donate or buy small price items with BITCOIN.. your brain does not understand the meaning of BITCOIN and instead your brain diverges into thinking about your other network which you pretend is bitcoin.

I love how you always sneak your own messed up opinion about LN into every conversation

The problem is now just the speculation but it is the fact that price is the ONLY thing we see being discussed about bitcoin. For example if you go to r/bitcoin it is all memes and price and very little is discussed about the technology if at all.

Funny thing is that I have only seen you make these statements not anybody else!
I personally believe that bitcoin blocks need to scale to match the increasing demand but at the same time LN as a second layer "bitcoin network" is offering very useful utilities that the blockchain can never offer.

OP,you sound kinda butthurt.Did you get scammed or something?
Your post doesn't make any sense.


This doesn't make any sense.Bitcoin doesn't "generate value" by itself.The value of Bitcoin is determined by the mining costs and the supply/demand for Bitcoins.
Bitcoin gets more expensive,but it might get worthless some day.Yes,and so what.This applies to every financial asset around the world(maybe except gold).Do you think that Tesla,Amazon,Facebook,Apple stocks won't become worthless some day?Nothing lasts forever.
The "Bitcoin doesn't have instrinsic value" mantra that has been repeated by all the BTC haters have gotten completely meaningless at this point.Repeating the mantra one more time won't make it meaningful.

sidenote. im keeping this quote for later use when pooya wants to advertise his favoured altnet while saying bitcoin utility cant cope as a currency (contradition)

anyways...
value and values are two different terms.. the term with the 's' (values) is the utility and feature, benefits. the term without the 's' is a financial measure

bitcoins values(features utility and benefit) have many.
bitcoins value (financial) is not just some random number. its actually based on actual things. and due to mining and other things. it has less chance of 'going to zero' than many POS coins.

POS coins have little to no value or values. but POW coins have value. and in some cases of pow altcoins have values too. but bitcoin has the most of both


i agree its not money out of thin air. there is actually alot of economics going on..
yes advertising bitcoin as 'to the moon' and '$100k in 2021/2 or $1m by 2023 is silly exaggerated advertising that needs to stop. because thats just hyping up bitcoin and trying to promise long term possibilities as things that are (falsely) promised to happen short term

. but this is where people need to learn about the VALUE and not the PRICE.
i personally never care for the day-to-day price speculation. i prefer to look at the store of value window ongoing which moves up at a more steady pace.
EG the $4k-$20k window of 2018 now being the $30k-$70k window of 2022

we will not reach $100k in 2022 nor $1m by 2023, but those PRICES may happen in a more distant future. as long as idiots dont try tarnishing/hinder/stifle bitcoin utility to try offramping people to other networks. by claiming that bitcoin cant work as a currency..
but if bitcoin was to actually get back to its 2009-2015 plan of growing and scaling THE BITCOIN network. bitcoin has the better chance of achieving higher store of value numbers.

(subtle hint how you(pooya) are part of the group that wants to claim bitcoin is useless as a currency and people should play on other networks!!(facepalm))

Government issues paper money by putting gold as a reserve in most cases but these days the printer is just printing the money without any mechanism causing extreme inflation. May I ask you who will assure that this excess printing of fiat money should not happen?

This shows that even the assurances by the government are useless and fake. So better do not look for assurances but look at the bitcoin model. There is no flaw in the bitcoin model and it's hard to believe its demand could go down when there is too much inflation on the alternative currency (fiat money).

Bitcoin do have intrinsic value, you can't generate Bitcoin freely without any cost since you need to mine using mining rigs, electricity, and the other maintenance cost. It's different with Bitcoin's value; the use case, decentralize, no one control, widely used, etc. Also it's different with Bitcoin's price as we can see on any exchanges the price is around $40K.

Bitcoin could become worthless if there's another better technology comes up, but... I don't see any crypto or technology which better than Bitcoin until now.

Forget best or worse, bitcoin is not even an investment. Bitcoin is a currency and as the only existing decentralized censorship resistant payment system it offers a lot of utilities for people all around the world and utility means intrinsic value.

That's been the biggest problem newbies have been facing, bitcoin is advertised to them as an investment that will give them a lot of money out of thin air! Everywhere they look there is only talks about the price, how much it has gone up or how much it can go up. Unfortunately many of you guys don't bother doing any research yourselves either to see what the hell this Bitcoin you are buying is!

If you are going to claim that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, you would do well to explain why it does not. To me you've seen it written somewhere without stopping to think much about what it means.

I've seen several reasons to defend that, such as it doesn't produce cash flows, or that it's not backed by any government. In general, the arguments used are garbage. In the first case, we can see that there are many things that don't produce cash flows and do have intrinsic value, such as a mansion you live in that is worth $10M. The second is laughable, because the currencies backed by the government we can see that they have value but decreasing value that tends to 0, something that we can see taken to the extreme in economies that end up dollarizing as in South America. And on the other hand, if that were the case, gold would not have any value either because it is not backed by governments.

I think there are more arguments, but instead of trying to show why they are wrong I will go to the positive part. Bitcoin, yes it has intrinsic value because:

1) It is the best invention we have to store and transfer value, especially in medium and large amounts.
2) It is scarce, and with a total limit to its production.

real value is where there has been some real hard labour cost put into the assets creation/acquisition, whereby people refuse to sell at a loss because there is real cost involved.  in that loss.

gold is only $1,800 instead of just $1 because it costs over $900 instead of $0.50 to mine it.

a $200k house is based on all the bricklaying and plumbing and modernisation updates being around $100k of costs.

understand that the speculative price is not the same as value. and that price is usually above value within a safe amount to still be deemed as within value.
..
however when things 'bubble', is when the PRICE (not to be confused with underlying value) when the speculative price is pushed out to a random number that has no bases of stability or rational thought.
EG when a house build cost was $100k but they are trying to market it for $5million.. that is a market bubble. and not sustainable.
houses being sold way above value is a signal that there will be a market crash.
...
take most POS coins. assuming there is 46,000 people 'validating' POS blocks
now assume there are ~2 coins mined per block every 15 seconds.
meaning 480 a hour, meaning 11520 a day, meaning 46,000 in 4 days

this suggesting each person probably gets 2 coin every 8 days

that makes their coin have an underlying cost of 96hours of passive computer time per coin. which at say 0.04/kwh puts an average desktop computer at half that cost of electric(500w). meaning 2cents per hour or $1.92 cost for mining POS on a popular coin with many thousands of people validating(mining)

well. what i have described is Ethereum after its 'detonation'.. whereby it shifts over from POW to POS
so although Ether while on POW has a mining cost of over $2000. when it switches to POW its value turns into $2

so watch Ethers value plummet by atleast 1000x
..
however bitcoins 'value' sits at a bottomline value of $30k(including the hardware costs) because right now the cheapest you cam mine bitcoin anywhere on the planet is about $30k. the most expensive electric cost using latest gen asic hardware costs included is about $70k

this value window of $30k-$70k. and then seeing that bitcoin PRICE sits happily within this value window shows that bitcoin is a good store of value, without having much of a hyper inflated bubble of speculations pushing the price way outside the value limits.

but with that said. bitcoin could lose hashrate competition and next gen miners could be more efficient which could bring the cost value down and thus cause the price to come down too.. but this is less probable compared to the known drop ether is about to experience soon

The "best" way to invest your money is subjective, and will differ depending on personal situation.

It technically could, just like how your business could technically end up being bankrupt and the business stock you invested in going bankrupt.

Nothing. There's no such thing as guarantees with anything.

There is no definitive answer to this. Otherwise nobody would invest in anything else anymore, right. My advice is to do your own research and decide for yourself if you believe Bitcoin is a project that has a prosperous future or if it's doomed to fail.

Everything could 'potentially lose all its value', the reason for that is rarely that it 'generates value', though. That sentence makes absolutely no sense.

Nobody assures this will not happen. Nobody. This is freedom money. Free market and that's pretty much it.

Feel free to read the whitepaper, it's a relatively short and enjoyable read.

I'm misquoting satoshi here, but I like this sentence:

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?