"Bitcoin is Islamic" -by Economist Bruce Fenton

Antonas1

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Quote from: akuntester1 on December 12, 2022, 01:20:38 PM

I also think that his statement "Bitocin is Islamic" is wrong.
He "Bruce Fenton" said "Bitcoin is Islamic" just because he saw investment from the Middle East.
Not that it makes Bitcoin Islamic and accepted by all adherents of the Islamic faith.
There are still many pros and cons regarding Bitcoin, especially in the Islamic religion.
I think what he said was just his opinion, although I think it's not quite right because he is not a person with the capacity to say "Bitcoin is Islamic".
But everyone is free to have an opinion as long as it doesn't hurt.

Despite all the debates that exist about Bitcoin.
Every individual is responsible for themselves towards the religion and god they believe in.

In fact, there are already Islamic research journals that discuss Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies if they want to read it, or they can ask Google. Most people equalize Bitcoin with gold and silver as noticed in Islam without finding out the basics, they only claim opinions and personal thoughts. Sadly, when they meet Islamic law, they will say "don't mix economics with religion."

fennic

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According to me and that knowledge I have I will say that Bitcoin and Crypto is halal but if we use leverage and that is Haram and it is also called betting and betting is prohibited in Islam.
We all know that as Muslims we also use leverage that is haram and that is not good for us. This is the leverage that made many people bankrupt. We should see all aspects wether we are Talking about.
By the way we should not discuss such posts regarding relegion.

akuntester1

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No, he is wrong. Bitcoin is not Islamic. Bitcoin does not have a physical materialize that can be used as collateral, which is clearly inverse to one of the requirements for currency in Islam. The physical form is very important as a guarantee for the owner, even if it's just a little wood piece.

Quote from: Findingnemo on December 09, 2022, 03:41:31 AM

While who really cares about religion when it comes to money, when you made billions you will be accepted no matter what religion you belong so as a commoner we need to realise the religions are created by us to progress humans not to keep them under control.

Religion has rules for all of life, including currency, so religion must be involved. Read your holy book.

Quote from: BitDane on December 09, 2022, 04:04:15 AM

When things get entangled with religion or politics, it become messy.

Give me some examples (with religion).

Quote from: BitDane on December 09, 2022, 04:04:15 AM

I hope to separate financial system with religion and politics. Let Bitcoin be Bitcoin and do its natural function. It was created not because of any religion but because it wanted to solve financial problem specifically transaction when dealing with financial institution. As far as I know, it wasn't created because of any religious principle.

No, you are wrong. In fact, it's religion that teaches us about the principles of life, including finance.

I also think that his statement "Bitocin is Islamic" is wrong.
He "Bruce Fenton" said "Bitcoin is Islamic" just because he saw investment from the Middle East.
Not that it makes Bitcoin Islamic and accepted by all adherents of the Islamic faith.
There are still many pros and cons regarding Bitcoin, especially in the Islamic religion.
I think what he said was just his opinion, although I think it's not quite right because he is not a person with the capacity to say "Bitcoin is Islamic".
But everyone is free to have an opinion as long as it doesn't hurt.

Despite all the debates that exist about Bitcoin.
Every individual is responsible for themselves towards the religion and god they believe in.

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Quote from: davis196 on December 09, 2022, 01:34:30 AM

How can this Bruce Fenton guy read the minds of the rulers of the richest "oil monarchies" in the world?
Does he have some insider information? Did he talk with the King of Saudi Arabia or the Emir of Qatar?
What's the point for some of the richest countries in the world to adopt Bitcoin/crypto? These countries aren't undeveloped and poor like El Salvador or the Central African Republic. They can have as many USD/Euro/British pounds as they want, because they have oil.
This seems like another mindless bullish speculation, which isn't backed by any facts and logic. It's just wishful thinking and fantasies.

Having oil is not good enough, you can have oil and become poor, like a certain mismanaged Caribbean country... Being smart about it is what counts. Bitcoin is great and if they understand this, they will use it. A rich country can adopt it the same as a poor one, good for them if they do.

What is the point of having as much fiat as you want when there is an infinite amount of them? Not bitcoins, those are finite.

avikz

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Quote from: LDL on December 09, 2022, 01:16:34 AM

"Bitcoin is Islamic "
-Says Economist Bruce Fenton

That's very true! Bitcoin can be easily adopted by the islamic countries. Bitcoin doesn't provide interest on bitcoin, it appreciates in value! Which means, new bitcoin doesn't get added to your holding as interest payment every quarter. So it's not haram in any way!

Also the anger of Islamic world against the western countries is justified. So if they become more interested in adopting bitcoin and any other alternative currency system, that will not be a surprise!

piebeyb

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Quote from: BitDane on December 11, 2022, 05:08:38 PM

Quote from: piebeyb on December 11, 2022, 12:08:16 PM

We need people who understand this field, not in this forum either, if they think bitcoin is Islamic, there should be Islamic religious leaders who research it, at least religious leaders who are also familiar with current technology are not only based on Islamic law but must be seen from the technological aspect.

Technology and theology are two separate entity. Influencing one with the other will greatly affect its impact to the society. I believe the person who stated that Bitcoin is Islamic wanted to tap the Muslim people into diving on the Bitcoin properties more. The guy wanted to get the interest of Muslim government in a positive way. Nevertheless, any propaganda Economist Bruce Fenton in mind is probably aligned to boost the adoption of Bitcoin in Muslim countries.

Quote from: piebeyb on December 11, 2022, 12:08:16 PM

sometimes there are many different opinions from religious leaders because maybe there are some religious leaders who don't understand this technology and only explain about the law, now this must be put together in order to get a really clear law, if I'm neutral as long as it's my money and don't use money other people to invest so yeah it's safe Wink

The problem with religious leader is that they felt that they are entitled to everything especially the right to dictate what their followers have to do. Most of them are stucked in their religious articles and often disregard technologies and breakthroughs, even announcing the technology advancement as way of the devils without understanding the real usage and function of that technology.

Yes, that's why we need people who don't only look at it from a religious perspective, because in every era it's always different and sometimes the technology that develops must be adapted to the needs, for example, people who understand religion say that technology is prohibited in Islam, but they need communication technology. a kind of cellphone to stay connected with family and others, what is meant by law is not only seen from religious law but must be seen from another side, for example bitcoin is used as an asset for investment like gold, I feel bitcoin is Islamic

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Quote from: coupable on December 11, 2022, 11:23:53 AM

I can't find explanations why some people go into strange contexts in their descriptions. I come from an Islamic religious background, and many exaggerators in religion find pleasure in attaching everything to Islam.
Bitcoin has all the characteristics of money and can be used in the same way. Islamic countries do not need a religious text or a jurisprudential interpretation to choose the trading tool, and they may not even need bitcoin in relation to their internal financial strategy. Petrodollar revenues make them relatively safe and avoid them thinking about alternative solutions.

That's true, whenever something different or unique availed in the market. The same gets attached with the islamic religion without any reason. If we go through Christianity or some other religion, we'll get to know about similar context that can relate it. As mentioned petrodollar revenue keeps them rich and this too a reason for the gulf nations to stand with bitcoin usage. Maybe that's the reason why most of the speculators connect bitcoin with Islam.

BitDane

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Quote from: piebeyb on December 11, 2022, 12:08:16 PM

We need people who understand this field, not in this forum either, if they think bitcoin is Islamic, there should be Islamic religious leaders who research it, at least religious leaders who are also familiar with current technology are not only based on Islamic law but must be seen from the technological aspect.

Technology and theology are two separate entity. Influencing one with the other will greatly affect its impact to the society. I believe the person who stated that Bitcoin is Islamic wanted to tap the Muslim people into diving on the Bitcoin properties more. The guy wanted to get the interest of Muslim government in a positive way. Nevertheless, any propaganda Economist Bruce Fenton in mind is probably aligned to boost the adoption of Bitcoin in Muslim countries.

Quote from: piebeyb on December 11, 2022, 12:08:16 PM

sometimes there are many different opinions from religious leaders because maybe there are some religious leaders who don't understand this technology and only explain about the law, now this must be put together in order to get a really clear law, if I'm neutral as long as it's my money and don't use money other people to invest so yeah it's safe Wink

The problem with religious leader is that they felt that they are entitled to everything especially the right to dictate what their followers have to do. Most of them are stucked in their religious articles and often disregard technologies and breakthroughs, even announcing the technology advancement as way of the devils without understanding the real usage and function of that technology.

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Quote from: LDL on December 09, 2022, 01:16:34 AM

"Bitcoin is Islamic "
-Says Economist Bruce Fenton

If Bruce Fenton's a Muslim judge who's permitted to oversee Sharia I'd like to hear him. If he isn't Muslim what's his credentials? If Bruce's quoting others it's satisfactory but if he's making it up with tweets he shouldn't be taken earnestly.

Quote from: mindrust on December 09, 2022, 01:21:35 AM

I have asked this question to chatGPT and he told me:

Quote

It is not for me to say whether or not Bitcoin is Islamic. Different scholars may have different opinions on the matter. In general, though, Islamic financial law has certain principles and guidelines that must be followed, such as the prohibition of riba (usury or interest). It is up to individual Muslims and Islamic scholars to determine whether or not Bitcoin is compliant with these principles and guidelines.

I guess like this big artificial brains over here said, only muslims can decide if bitcoin is islamic.

If the majority of the muslims say, bitcoin is islamic, then bitcoin would become islamic.

Right now I don't think that's the case but in the future, who knows?

Majority of the Muslims opinions isn't making it حلال Halal or حرام Haram. Scholars issue a religious decree it's a فتاوى fatwa in شريعة Sharia. In Islam it's only Muslim scholars who've backgrounds from educated respected teachers & institutes permissible to comment on what's allowed & what isn't. If it's implement faithfully it's the law according to Sharia.

Sharia decrees aren't straight there's a political play backdrop because corruption's played it's hand. A fatwa isn't static every time it's issued. Some are invariably divergent according to areas. Fatwas aren't about religion today they're about politics for domestic consuming. In the same country religious leaders from different cities have disagreed there isn't unity each time.

piebeyb

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We need people who understand this field, not in this forum either, if they think bitcoin is Islamic, there should be Islamic religious leaders who research it, at least religious leaders who are also familiar with current technology are not only based on Islamic law but must be seen from the technological aspect.

sometimes there are many different opinions from religious leaders because maybe there are some religious leaders who don't understand this technology and only explain about the law, now this must be put together in order to get a really clear law, if I'm neutral as long as it's my money and don't use money other people to invest so yeah it's safe Wink

ajiz138

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I don't really want to make an argument about whether this is Islamic or not because in this case, for me personally, religion is clearly not a debatable area in any case, and I don't really like bitcoin associating with any religion.
On the other hand, there are currently a lot of claims like this which actually have only one goal to raise bitcoin back up with some news that really seems to make this something good.
There's nothing wrong with that and I like it, but right now we can't force it completely as if something like this really happened, moreover, this is just one of the many opinions that exist. There hasn't even been any statement regarding the country mentioned by the economist.

coupable

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I can't find explanations why some people go into strange contexts in their descriptions. I come from an Islamic religious background, and many exaggerators in religion find pleasure in attaching everything to Islam.
Bitcoin has all the characteristics of money and can be used in the same way. Islamic countries do not need a religious text or a jurisprudential interpretation to choose the trading tool, and they may not even need bitcoin in relation to their internal financial strategy. Petrodollar revenues make them relatively safe and avoid them thinking about alternative solutions.

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Riba can be committed through any form of a valuable object or assets, either money, gold, diamond, etc, Riba has nothing to do with money and assets directly but it has everything to do with the asset owner.

Moreover who told you that Bitcoin is Islamic? Now you are making me wondering what would have happened if Satoshi Nakamoto is a Muslim or the name of Bitcoin founder has a Muslim name.

Guys imagine what this would have caused, maybe we will be calling Bitcoin the Muslim coin? Anyway, Muslims have the money, I believe they are the wealthiest but it's impossible to buy all bitcoin because of the circulating supply of the asset. Too late to have 50% of the entire max supply lol.

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Quote from: LDL on December 09, 2022, 01:16:34 AM

"Bitcoin is Islamic "
-Says Economist Bruce Fenton

In other words an attention seeking idiot made some statements and the attention seeking media published it. Otherwise he has no idea what he is talking about and is just making random statements which is not entirely wrong nor right.

Bitcoin is a currency and what you do with that currency makes it Islamic or not-Islamic (or better said halal or haram). It's just that simple!

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Quote from: Mate2237 on December 10, 2022, 03:52:23 PM

Everyone has their own viewpoint on bitcoin, taking bitcoin as as Islamic coin is the Bruce Fenton point of view not for all. And the adoption of bitcoin by the Gulf Region is just a prediction not yet reality.

I don't know why people are trying to link bitcoin to a particular religion. Can Bruce Fenton take his Fiat currency to be a particular religion in his country? Bitcoin is neutrality because nobody knows Satoshi, if Satoshi is anonymity bitcoin is also like that.

It simply refers to its legalization in an Islamic manner.
Some people refer to Bitcoin as being similar to gambling because some people are reasoning it as a ponzy scheme and some people without good knowledge are taking it as gambling which is why they take it as some religious leaders are making things clear. Islam has a big restriction over gambling because it was totally prohibited for every Muslim to gamble.

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I don't know it clearly is bitcoin islamic or not? I just heard that future trading is not islamic.

Islamic ideas needs to be implemented by muslim ummah. If a non learned muslim or non muslim says anything then it will be likely to jokes. We don't wanna hear it from a non muslim or illiterate muslim. If bitcoin is legit in islam then we can know it from an Islamic Icon.

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Looks like some Arab countries are going big on cryptos, hence bruce Fenton saying "Bitcoin is Islamic" Taking into account that many Arab countries are of the most wealthy countries in the world so they can buy big with a lot of sheiks holding a large percentage of the total number of Bitcoins.

We could think that it would be a country like Qatar or perhaps Dubai where the larger number of Bitcon holders may be, but according to an article study done by Unlock media, Morocco is the Arab country that has bought more into Bitcoin.

Reid

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It's Islamic, it's Christian, it's Buddhists, and so on. Bitcoin is for everyone. They can claim it is for them and yet they cannot literally claim it.
I think the only point of what he said is to pull more investors in the Islamic regions all over the world. It's not a bad idea or a bad strategy, maybe it will be successful but who knows.
Although, it will be better if they will be fed by correct information about Bitcoin and not about the religion only.

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Quote from: Gyfts on December 10, 2022, 03:07:38 PM

Quote from: Findingnemo on December 09, 2022, 03:41:31 AM

If I am not wrong money isn't prohibited in any religion so bitcoin itself a currency so its Islamic for sure.

While who really cares about religion when it comes to money, when you made billions you will be accepted no matter what religion you belong so as a commoner we need to realise the religions are created by us to progress humans not to keep them under control.

Gambling is haram by any interpretation of the Quran so if someone were to trade Bitcoin for short term profits, it could be considered impermissible. Islamic nations aren't generally susceptible to individual liberties and I don't see that translating to financial liberty either. Bitcoin is only as Islamic as the theocrats in power want it to be because here's nothing in Islamic writings that would even begin to capture Bitcoin's compliance with Islam.

That being said, the Middle East is becoming slightly more westernized so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they're making BTC investments. I just wouldn't make the connection that it's because Bitcoin's Islamic. There is no relation.

Gambling is haram but trading isn't so how can we say that trading bitcoin for short term is impermissible?

Either short term or long term as long as its used as medium of transfer the bitcoin isn't against the sharia law.

Middle east becoming modern but not entirely still equal rights for women is not practiced in some of middle east countries but they see the growth of BTC for decade and atleast now they decided to jump in or they will miss the train.

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Quote from: LDL on December 09, 2022, 01:16:34 AM

"Bitcoin is Islamic "
-Says Economist Bruce Fenton

He recently said these things in a video message. He also said that Bitcoin is starting to gain acceptance in the Middle East/Gulf region, not just adoption. He claims to see 9-digit BTC investments from the Middle East/Gulf region this year.

Does he know it exactlyso that he can say that Bitcoin is Islamic?
Perhaps this will also depend on the views of each scholar and his institution. Because in my place, Bitcoin is actually considered haram even though this is not related to usury. Because, Bitcoin is considered to have no underlying physical form, so there is no guarantee for investors who own Bitcoin. What's more, Bitcoin is considered gharar and dharar.

But once again, maybe each country has a different view and different acceptance regarding this. So that this will have an influence on whether Bitcoin is legalized or allowed or not.

Dunamisx

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I don't think a religious beliefs can go against the adoption of bitcoin since it's a currency acceptable for making payments only in digital form, i cannot say for other cryptocurrencies since some of them present investors with scam and fake realizations, but bitcoin has always served it purpose ever since Satoshi completed his research work on it and launched, bitcoin can also serve as a religion means of giving offerings, charity or any philanthropic givings inbythe name of a religion.

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Everyone has their own viewpoint on bitcoin, taking bitcoin as as Islamic coin is the Bruce Fenton point of view not for all. And the adoption of bitcoin by the Gulf Region is just a prediction not yet reality.

I don't know why people are trying to link bitcoin to a particular religion. Can Bruce Fenton take his Fiat currency to be a particular religion in his country? Bitcoin is neutrality because nobody knows Satoshi, if Satoshi is anonymity bitcoin is also like that.

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Quote from: LDL on December 09, 2022, 01:16:34 AM

"Bitcoin is Islamic "
-Says Economist Bruce Fenton

He recently said these things in a video message. He also said that Bitcoin is starting to gain acceptance in the Middle East/Gulf region, not just adoption. He claims to see 9-digit BTC investments from the Middle East/Gulf region this year.

I would not relate bitcoin to any religion because bitcoin is a currency, and all currencies are legal in every religion. The only thing that makes a currency illegal is that if you get it by illegal means, doesn't matter if it is fiat / paper currency or bitcoin digital currency.

As far as investment in bitcoin is concerned by the gulf and the middle east is concerned, if it happens believe me it will take bitcoin to a new all time high. The oil producing gulf countries are very rich and if they decide to invest in bitcoin,it will be enormous.

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Quote from: Findingnemo on December 09, 2022, 03:41:31 AM

If I am not wrong money isn't prohibited in any religion so bitcoin itself a currency so its Islamic for sure.

While who really cares about religion when it comes to money, when you made billions you will be accepted no matter what religion you belong so as a commoner we need to realise the religions are created by us to progress humans not to keep them under control.

Gambling is haram by any interpretation of the Quran so if someone were to trade Bitcoin for short term profits, it could be considered impermissible. Islamic nations aren't generally susceptible to individual liberties and I don't see that translating to financial liberty either. Bitcoin is only as Islamic as the theocrats in power want it to be because here's nothing in Islamic writings that would even begin to capture Bitcoin's compliance with Islam.

That being said, the Middle East is becoming slightly more westernized so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they're making BTC investments. I just wouldn't make the connection that it's because Bitcoin's Islamic. There is no relation.

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Quote from: davis196 on December 09, 2022, 01:34:30 AM

How can this Bruce Fenton guy read the minds of the rulers of the richest "oil monarchies" in the world?

Bruce Fenton is someone who has lived in Dubai, Saudi Arabia, and also spend some time with people who are leaders from the Gulf/Middle East. According to what he said there's an increase of skepticism in fiat currency and when issues like this continue people always look for an alternative I believe we already know the alternative people will run to for safety.

Quote from: davis196 on December 09, 2022, 01:34:30 AM

Does he have some insider information? Did he talk with the King of Saudi Arabia or the Emir of Qatar?

It won't be difficult for him to have insider information as Gulf/Middle East

Quote from: davis196 on December 09, 2022, 01:34:30 AM

What's the point for some of the richest countries in the world to adopt Bitcoin/crypto? These countries aren't undeveloped and poor like El Salvador or the Central African Republic. They can have as many USD/Euro/British pounds as they want, because they have oil.

We need to understand that it's not all the people that are from this region are super rich and if exchanges like Rain offer crypto trading across the Middle East let's ask ourselves who's their customers.

Quote from: davis196 on December 09, 2022, 01:34:30 AM

This seems like another mindless bullish speculation, which isn't backed by any facts and logic. It's just wishful thinking and fantasies.

For now, we can assume it to be mindless speculation but let's wait for the Islamic finance decision.

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I don't have much information about the religions so I cannot say if something is Islamic or not, mostly the people who give ideas about what is against their religion and what is not against religion will pay attention to and research the thing they are going to judge about it, so far I see none between these people researching and talking about bitcoin because they actually mostly do not have much information and they don't know what exactly is bitcoin completely.

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Quote from: tjtonmoy on December 09, 2022, 09:57:33 AM

Quote from: DooMAD on December 09, 2022, 09:41:40 AM

I get the sense Bruce Fenton just says whatever gets him the most media attention. Seems to be working for him. At best, his words are poorly phrased. If he had simply said something along the lines of "The non-debt-based nature of Bitcoin may appeal to Muslims", that would be reasonable. But instead, he opted to take that position to its extreme to sound more controversial and therefore clickbait-y.

Yeah i agree with you here. Every translation of Qur'an in many languages have made it complicated. You need to learn from the one who knows Arabic language .

Whatever Bruce Fenton said didn't arise from any complication, lack of understanding of Arabic language or failure to interprete the Qur'an correctly, in simpler terms he was just talking about BTC and muslims, and he knew exactly what he wanted to achieve by saying what he said, he knew that putting it in this way will create the most debate, and i guess it has.

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Quote from: mindrust on December 09, 2022, 01:21:35 AM

I have asked this question to chatGPT and he told me:

Quote

It is not for me to say whether or not Bitcoin is Islamic. Different scholars may have different opinions on the matter. In general, though, Islamic financial law has certain principles and guidelines that must be followed, such as the prohibition of riba (usury or interest). It is up to individual Muslims and Islamic scholars to determine whether or not Bitcoin is compliant with these principles and guidelines.

I guess like this big artificial brains over here said, only muslims can decide if bitcoin is islamic.

If the majority of the muslims say, bitcoin is islamic, then bitcoin would become islamic.

Right now I don't think that's the case but in the future, who knows?

I am a Muslim and I don't have a lot of knowledge to this, but from what i know, interest is haram. But you can trade one thing for others.

[According to Surah Al 'Imran, verses 13--132 in the Quran: "O believers, take not doubled and redoubled interest, and fear God so that you may prosper". Receiving or paying interest is deemed to be a major sin in Islam.]

As long as you take the right amount to buy sell BTC, then in Islam it's halal. Future trading is haram, but spot Buy Sell is not haram.
But there's a thing that bugs me.
If it's not a physical currency, and you trade it for something which is physical goods, then that have some issue which I have very little knowledge about.

As you said, it's up to people how they take it.
But for me as long as I can trade BTC in spot buy sell then that's ok for me.
I take future trade as betting and betting in islam is haram. So i try to stay away from that.

Quote from: DooMAD on December 09, 2022, 09:41:40 AM

I get the sense Bruce Fenton just says whatever gets him the most media attention. Seems to be working for him. At best, his words are poorly phrased. If he had simply said something along the lines of "The non-debt-based nature of Bitcoin may appeal to Muslims", that would be reasonable. But instead, he opted to take that position to its extreme to sound more controversial and therefore clickbait-y.

Yeah i agree with you here. Every translation of Qur'an in many languages have made it complicated. You need to learn from the one who knows Arabic language .

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I get the sense Bruce Fenton just says whatever gets him the most media attention. Seems to be working for him. At best, his words are poorly phrased. If he had simply said something along the lines of "The non-debt-based nature of Bitcoin may appeal to Muslims", that would be reasonable. But instead, he opted to take that position to its extreme to sound more controversial and therefore clickbait-y.

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Quote from: NdaMk on December 09, 2022, 09:21:10 AM

There isn't a need to drag religion into this. Bitcoin just like Fiat can be use the right way and also be misused according to Islamic teachings. With fiat you could lend them with or without interest, same goes to bitcoin lending, the lenders could decide to add in interest it is now left for the lendee to reject the offer if he is on Islamic ruling. The edge bitcoin has over banking sectors is its ability to be controlled by the owner whereas in banking some actions are taken with the owners knowledge. And some of these money in banks are used for businesses that are frowned upon based on teachings of Islam. With bitcoin they have total control of it.

Otherwise bitcoin usage goes same way as the fiat just the investor has the deciding factor.

The main question has always been what is bitcoin in relation to Sharia law. If it is money, then the owners have certain obligations, for example, paying zakat if you had a certain number of coins during the year. If it's a product, then that's another matter.

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Quote from: BitDane on December 09, 2022, 04:04:15 AM

When things get entangled with religion or politics, it become messy.

Give me some examples (with religion).

Religions are created by men to emulate concepts, principles and morals of spiritual world. But since they are driven by men, religions just subvert such principles and then we have religious leaders portraying themselves as the masters of universe, who know every secrets and details of God's creation.

They are greedy for money and ambitious for power and popularity. That is why politics and religion are mixed so easily and when this happens, a false Messiah is always raisen by the nation as a savior. That is one example, idolatry.

Within it, every kinds of abuses and absurds practiced by authorities are justified in name of God and in name of a higher noble mission to save the nation from the evil forces. Citizens blind by idolatry just accept it as the only true.

Bitcoin isn't islamic, protestant, catholic, buddhist, atheist, conservative or liberal. It's simply a currency, which can be used for the good or for the bad, depending who is using it and for what. And the most important: bitcoin is for all!

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There isn't a need to drag religion into this. Bitcoin just like Fiat can be use the right way and also be misused according to Islamic teachings. With fiat you could lend them with or without interest, same goes to bitcoin lending, the lenders could decide to add in interest it is now left for the lendee to reject the offer if he is on Islamic ruling. The edge bitcoin has over banking sectors is its ability to be controlled by the owner whereas in banking some actions are taken with the owners knowledge. And some of these money in banks are used for businesses that are frowned upon based on teachings of Islam. With bitcoin they have total control of it.

Otherwise bitcoin usage goes same way as the fiat just the investor has the deciding factor.

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I wouldn't put it that way. Bitcoin can be accepted by many countries in the Gulf and the Middle East, but this has nothing to do with religion. The main reason is the lack of trust in fiat, as it is losing popularity more and more, in contrast to the trust of these countries in digital assets, investments which are becoming very popular in the Arab countries. However, bitcoin is sometimes scammed, and I wouldn't say the Quran would allow that. Therefore, I think dragging theological comparisons here is wrong.

Hydrogen

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Quote from: LDL on December 09, 2022, 01:16:34 AM

"Bitcoin is Islamic "
-Says Economist Bruce Fenton

He recently said these things in a video message.

Its an old topic which has been covered for many years.

Quote

Usury: Islam

Riba (usury) is forbidden in Islam. As such, specialized codes of banking have developed to cater to investors wishing to obey Qur'anic law. (See Islamic banking)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury#Islam

The religion of islam contains teachings against usury. Which invokes trends against high interest rate banking, payment and merchant services.

The format and principles bitcoin is built upon is definitely more aligned with muslim religious ideology in contrast to fractional reserve banking and standardized financial establishment practices.

Christianity also contains similar teachings although it could be fair to say most christians are unaware of them.

LDL

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In the Views of Islam,,, Bitcoin consider as Haram when it would be used as...

Gambling : Based on Islamic thinking, Bitcoin will be considered haram only when Bitcoin is used in various gambling sites. Generally, Bitcoin is widely used in most gambling fields.

High Yield APY/Interest%: Currently, various exchanges, websites offer high interest rates, which have been declared completely haram in Islam. Staking, High APY, interest% etc are completely Haram. But in these cases Bitcoin offers higher interest rates. If the interest free offer is only fully halal in Islam.

Illegal Activities : If illegal activities such as anti-social activities, smuggling, contraband transactions, drug dealing, money laundering, and international smuggling are done through Bitcoin, then Bitcoin will be declared haram in the eyes of Islam.

Apart from the actions mentioned above, if Bitcoin is earned and spent honestly for the benefit of people, i.e. for livelihood, then only Bitcoin will be considered halal in the eyes of Islam.

Smartprofit

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Quote from: kryptqnick on December 09, 2022, 06:18:39 AM

I remember an article declaring Bitcoin halal. That's something I understand, as it basically allows Muslims to use it. -snip-

If we look at the studies of scholars and sheikhs, all of them still claim that Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are haram, even fiat. But they also said, when you can't fight back and have no choice but to use it, then the law becomes permissible.

I don't know Islam very well....

As far as I know, in the tradition of Islam it is forbidden to lend money. From this point of view, it is likely that some of the popular financial instruments in the DeFi ecosystem do not follow the Islamic tradition.

However, Bitcoin is a deflationary virtual currency that does not contain algorithms built into the code that allow you to lend coins at interest. From this point of view, Bitcoin can probably be approved by representatives of traditional Islam.

Large-scale investments in Bitcoin by oil sheiks can greatly increase the price of the first cryptocurrency.

Anguwa

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Quote from: kryptqnick on December 09, 2022, 06:18:39 AM

I remember an article declaring Bitcoin halal. That's something I understand, as it basically allows Muslims to use it. Bitcoin being Islamic, however, sounds as if there's something specifically Muslim to it, which isn't true. It's like appropriation of Bitcoin by one religion. I am happy that Muslims can use Bitcoin and that it doesn't go against their laws, but people of other faiths and atheists can use it just as well.

In my personal view, trading Bitcoin is simply the buying and selling of a digital asset, which almost everyone in the world does. The difference is that people buy and hold Bitcoin while they wait for the price to increase by two or even three or four times the purchase price, which is just as normal as the profit or gain we experience when buying and selling other goods. Bitcoin is authorized and lawful.

CryptoGPU

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Saudi Prince Al-Waleed: Bitcoin Is 'Going to Implode'
https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2017/10/23/saudi-prince-al-waleed-bitcoin-is-going-to-implode/

A senior member of the Saudi royal family struck a critical tone about bitcoin during a media appearance today.

*today: it was back in 2017

kryptqnick

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I remember an article declaring Bitcoin halal. That's something I understand, as it basically allows Muslims to use it. Bitcoin being Islamic, however, sounds as if there's something specifically Muslim to it, which isn't true. It's like appropriation of Bitcoin by one religion. I am happy that Muslims can use Bitcoin and that it doesn't go against their laws, but people of other faiths and atheists can use it just as well.

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Quote from: LDL on December 09, 2022, 01:16:34 AM

"Bitcoin is Islamic "
-Says Economist Bruce Fenton

1. How about we let Muslims decide what's Islamic and what not
2. How about we stop mixing Bitcoin and religion
3. After a failed carrier strat as a politician probably it's not the best time to talk about international stuff that's way beyond your current capabilities

Quote from: Dave1 on December 09, 2022, 02:31:38 AM

So who knows, maybe this time, to be able to push the price again we need the billionaires of those Arab countries to be able to see bitcoin at least $100k.

It's a bit ironic that we need the so-called old finance billionaires to rise bitcoin value, a few more steps and we're going to see cheers on Rothschild, Soros, and Buffet investing in Bitcoin.

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Bitcoin people earn in different ways and there are many different ways to earn. If you have earned money through the avenues like Grambling section gambling casino then it will be illegal income according to Islam. But if you collect from him more than you lend by fiat, it will be illegal.

But we whose earn cryptocurrency by working from bitcoin forum it is legit. Because we are not affiliated with any gambling or casino that is why it is legitimate earnings. However, I believe that if there is profit or loss, such activities can be called legitimate according to Islam, such as trading, investing, holding, etc.

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Quote from: Findingnemo on December 09, 2022, 03:41:31 AM

If I am not wrong money isn't prohibited in any religion so bitcoin itself a currency so its Islamic for sure.

It's not the money that is prohibited, it's the way you use the money and how you have earned it. Islamic nations invest just like everyone else and they use fiat like all other people. What is not acceptable is to profit from interest. If you borrow 1 BTC from a Muslim who respects those principles, he isn't allowed to request that you pay him back 1.1 BTC. You give back what you borrowed with no interest.

Quote from: Findingnemo on December 09, 2022, 03:41:31 AM

While who really cares about religion when it comes to money, when you made billions you will be accepted no matter what religion you belong so as a commoner we need to realise the religions are created by us to progress humans not to keep them under control.

Since when are religions guided by progress, development, freedom, or even peace? You do what you are told and what is written in the holy books with no complaints. Independent minds are neither desirable nor welcome in religious circles. They undermine their positions of power and control.

Ricky Gervais made a good tweet about religion a long time ago. He said:

Quote

I see Atheists are fighting and killing each other again, over who doesn't believe in any God the most. Oh, no..wait.. that never happens."

https://twitter.com/rickygervais/status/247246481185202177?lang=en

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Quote from: mindrust on December 09, 2022, 01:21:35 AM

I have asked this question to chatGPT and he told me:

Quote

It is not for me to say whether or not Bitcoin is Islamic. Different scholars may have different opinions on the matter. In general, though, Islamic financial law has certain principles and guidelines that must be followed, such as the prohibition of riba (usury or interest). It is up to individual Muslims and Islamic scholars to determine whether or not Bitcoin is compliant with these principles and guidelines.

I guess like this big artificial brains over here said, only muslims can decide if bitcoin is islamic.

If the majority of the muslims say, bitcoin is islamic, then bitcoin would become islamic.

Right now I don't think that's the case but in the future, who knows?

When things get entangled with religion or politics, it become messy. I hope to separate financial system with religion and politics. Let Bitcoin be Bitcoin and do its natural function. It was created not because of any religion but because it wanted to solve financial problem specifically transaction when dealing with financial institution. As far as I know, it wasn't created because of any religious principle.

Findingnemo

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Bitcoin = Financial freedom

If I am not wrong money isn't prohibited in any religion so bitcoin itself a currency so its Islamic for sure.

While who really cares about religion when it comes to money, when you made billions you will be accepted no matter what religion you belong so as a commoner we need to realise the religions are created by us to progress humans not to keep them under control.

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Both fiat and Bitcoin can be Islamic depending on the usage of these currencies. If you give someone a loan using Bitcoin and you ask for interest, then you have committed riba according to Islamic laws. But if someone gives an interest-free loan in fiat, this is not against Islamic laws.

There are some allegations that the Middle East is gradually becoming a cryptocurrency because many highly profiled citizens are under sanctions because of their connections to human rights violations or terrorist financing. Hence, to invade these sanctions, they are opening their economy to crypto. There are also speculations that the close relationship between Russia and some middle east nations is not just for political reasons but economical ones. It is assumed that cryptocurrency is one of the tools sanctioned Russians are using to dodge this punishment. And since Russia has been disconnected from SWIFT, Gulf nations are now middlemen or intermediaries for these cryptocurrency transactions.

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I don't advocate for mixing up Bitcoin with religion, and trying to use the Quran to support bitcoin falls within that radar.
Heavy investments from the middle East and Islamic regions from both the government and individuals would surely push the market upwards and increase adoption, as would investments from any other country and region.

I didn't quite clearly hear or read what would drive such investments from the islamic region from the speaker, seems more like an optimistic approach.

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I guess everyone is really looking for some reason why bitcoin will go on six digits or even higher in the next couple of years or at least the next bitcoin bull run.

I remember myself what could be the triggering point when we are not yet on the bull in 2022, and so I read it the money could come from government and it did, from El Salvador and then we have some entity like Elon and Michael Saylor to push the price to $69k.

So who knows, maybe this time, to be able to push the price again we need the billionaires of those Arab countries to be able to see bitcoin at least $100k.

davis196

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How can this Bruce Fenton guy read the minds of the rulers of the richest "oil monarchies" in the world?
Does he have some insider information? Did he talk with the King of Saudi Arabia or the Emir of Qatar?
What's the point for some of the richest countries in the world to adopt Bitcoin/crypto? These countries aren't undeveloped and poor like El Salvador or the Central African Republic. They can have as many USD/Euro/British pounds as they want, because they have oil.
This seems like another mindless bullish speculation, which isn't backed by any facts and logic. It's just wishful thinking and fantasies.

mindrust

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I have asked this question to chatGPT and he told me:

Quote

It is not for me to say whether or not Bitcoin is Islamic. Different scholars may have different opinions on the matter. In general, though, Islamic financial law has certain principles and guidelines that must be followed, such as the prohibition of riba (usury or interest). It is up to individual Muslims and Islamic scholars to determine whether or not Bitcoin is compliant with these principles and guidelines.

I guess like this big artificial brains over here said, only muslims can decide if bitcoin is islamic.

If the majority of the muslims say, bitcoin is islamic, then bitcoin would become islamic.

Right now I don't think that's the case but in the future, who knows?

LDL

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"Bitcoin is Islamic "
-Says Economist Bruce Fenton

He recently said these things in a video message. He also said that Bitcoin is starting to gain acceptance in the Middle East/Gulf region, not just adoption. He claims to see 9-digit BTC investments from the Middle East/Gulf region this year.

He added that the growing skepticism surrounding fiat in the Gulf region is showing interest in investing in BTC and the number of investors is increasing day by day. He mentioned several Islamic countries including United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, Saudi Arabia as Bitcoin investment regions.

Source:https://cryptonews.net/17381325/?utm_source=CryptoNews&utm_medium=app&utm_campaign=shared

Topic: "Bitcoin is Islamic" -by Economist Bruce Fenton (Read 569 times)