Bitcoin is legal in Thailand | Bitcointalksearch.org

NewLiberty

legendary

Activity: 1204

Merit: 1002

Gresham's Lawyer

Quote from: mrb on August 04, 2013, 03:52:23 PM

Guidance is not law.

Besides, FinCEN is part of the US government, whereas the Bank of Thailand is not part of the government.

this.

And FinCEN is a part of the Dept of the Treasury, executive branch. Yes they do not make law, they do enforce it however, and so their guidance on how then intend to enforce it is instructive but not dispositive absent any definitive litigation and legislation.

In plain English, that means they are announcing (the guidance) what (they think) the current law means and they are likely to attempt to enforce it as such.
Judges may disagree. If it is Judge vs FinCEN, Judge wins. Congresscritters may disagree. If they pass some law that changes or refines the FinCEN guidance, that wins too (subject to it being ruled in court). In the final analysis, what happens in court matters most for criminal matters.

Viceroy

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 501

Quote

The Foreign Exchange Administration and Policy Department advised that due to lack of existing applicable laws, capital controls and the fact that Bitcoin straddles multiple financial facets the following Bitcoin activities are illegal in Thailand

Yes, I'm sure a bitcoin exchange is anti-bitcoin Roll Eyes

Stn

full member

Activity: 227

Merit: 100

Quote from: ?? on ??

I was shocked has fast the media picked this up with only one guy having this info on his blog.
Crazy.

It is indirect proof that it was part of anti-Bitcoin campaign.

Stn

full member

Activity: 227

Merit: 100

Guys who cares is FinCEN, Fed, BoT is the part of government or not. In this case it is absolutely doesn't matter. The fact that alleged blurb in the bitcoin.co.th blog was not uttered by the Bank of Thailand at all. It was just result of confusion or pure lie. No official paper exists and even simple press release was not issued on the alleged illegality of Bitcoin in Thailand.

Viceroy

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 501

Quote from: dree12 on August 25, 2013, 08:20:04 PM

Big misconceptions about the Thai central bank. It is part of the government. In fact, the bank's director is also the minister of finance! The bank is in charge of financial regulation and can indeed pass laws.

that's what I said!

dree12

legendary

Activity: 1246

Merit: 1077

Big misconceptions about the Thai central bank. It is part of the government. In fact, the bank's director is also the minister of finance! The bank is in charge of financial regulation and can indeed pass laws.

That said, the bank's authority seems to only allow decreeing laws regulating foreign currency, that is, currency that is legal tender in another sovereign state. Bitcoin does not as of yet fall under this definition, so any statements about it are not law but rather guidance. The guidance is likely unenforceable until Bitcoin becomes a recognized legal tender in another state.

BitcoinChick25

newbie

Activity: 14

Merit: 0

thanks for posting after reading some other threads I was convinced it was illegal.

Viceroy

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 501

I'll just put this here.

Thai police summon Facebook users over coup-rumor posts, threaten to jail people for ‘liking’

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/thai-police-summon-facebook-users-over-coup-feared-posts/2013/08/05/932e71d8-fdad-11e2-8294-0ee5075b840d_story.html

no surprise they are afraid of bitcoin, they can't even handle free speech!

Viceroy

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 501

Quote from: mrb on August 06, 2013, 04:39:25 PM

Quote from: Viceroy on August 06, 2013, 02:23:21 PM

So we need to follow the advice of the BOT the same as we follow the advice of FinCEN, right?

No. For the last time: FinCEN is part of the govt. BoT is not. How hard is it to understand the difference?

What do you mean "part of the government". BoT was created by the Thai government to be the oversee-er of all Thai banks. Surely they are not just some meaningless organization.

The number one role of BoT is:

It defines its roles as:[1]
Print and issue banknotes

Are they are are they not Thailand's equivalent of "the Fed" in the US? I think they are the same thing.

"The Federal Reserve System (also known as the Federal Reserve, and informally as the Fed) is the central banking system of the United States."

TheButterZone

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 1032

RIP Mommy

Quote from: mrb on August 06, 2013, 04:39:25 PM

Quote from: Viceroy on August 06, 2013, 02:23:21 PM

So we need to follow the advice of the BOT the same as we follow the advice of FinCEN, right?

No. For the last time: FinCEN is part of the govt. BoT is not. How hard is it to understand the difference?

He's a concern troll/pathological liar. Just ignore him.

mrb

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1028

Quote from: Viceroy on August 06, 2013, 02:23:21 PM

So we need to follow the advice of the BOT the same as we follow the advice of FinCEN, right?

No. For the last time: FinCEN is part of the govt. BoT is not. How hard is it to understand the difference?

Viceroy

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 501

So we need to follow the advice of the BOT the same as we follow the advice of FinCEN, right? So your problem is with the word 'legal' not the idea that Bitcoin is not allowed to be used in Thailand.

mrb

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1028

Quote from: Viceroy on August 04, 2013, 04:40:52 PM

Quote from: mrb on August 04, 2013, 03:52:23 PM

Guidance is not law.

Besides, FinCEN is part of the US government, whereas the Bank of Thailand is not part of the government.

Per Wikipedia:

The Bank of Thailand (BOT) was first set up as the Thai National Banking Bureau. The Bank of Thailand Act was promulgated on 28 April 1942 vesting upon the Bank of Thailand the responsibility for all central banking functions. The Bank of Thailand started operations on 10 December 1942.

Sounds just like the Federal Reserve to me.

Now FinCEN is not part of the Federal Reserve and none of these bodies can make law but they sure can interpret the law and they have. The Bank of Thailand's opinion is that bitcoin is illegal. FinCEN's opinion is that bitcoin is money.

As a matter of fact the Bank of Thailand works hand in hand with FinCEN as they are both members of FATF
http://www.fatf-gafi.org/pages/asiapacificgrouponmoneylaunderingapg.html
http://www.fincen.gov/international/fatf/

Now tell me again how FinCEN's opinion is any different than BOT's opinion in terms of how it affects users of bitcoin.

Err... you answered yourself a few lines above(!): because "FinCEN is not part of the Federal Reserve" (emphasis mine); FinCEN is actually part of the US government (Department of the Treasury). Understand that the Federal Reserve, like BoT, are weaker entities set up by the government, but not part of it, and strictly regulated by its laws.

turtle83

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 250

Supersonic

BoT saying saying something is not legal (assuming they have the right to decide on such matters) only has implications for businesses who want to mention BTC transactions in their books. For it to be "really" illegal for the common man, they need to publish a ruling saying so, send notifications to relevant authorities to enforce such ruling. Thats just the way it is in Thailand. IMHO prostitution is more illegal than BTC in Thailand.

We dont know if BoT did indeed say its illegal or not. The blogpost by the defunct exchange wrote something on their blog (all media articles based off that) doesnt make it law. After days of searching, the only quote I found from BoT did not say anything firm. All they said was they rejected the request for exchange. They probably also told the reporter that they did not rule it illegal, but such headline wont sell newspapers. Has it occurred to you that the exchange's blogpost could have been something lost in translation, or they are just venting out in frustration?

Lohoris

hero member

Activity: 630

Merit: 500

Bitgoblin

Quote from: joesmoe2012 on July 29, 2013, 02:54:22 PM

Wow thanks for the heads up, I'm suprised more people from thailand haven't spoken up yet to correct the misconception.

They did, but media wouldn't listen, and people wouldn't listen.
Once a FUD is spread, people are too stupid to stop it and spread it on.

Viceroy

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 501

Quote from: mrb on August 04, 2013, 03:52:23 PM

Guidance is not law.

Besides, FinCEN is part of the US government, whereas the Bank of Thailand is not part of the government.

Per Wikipedia:

The Bank of Thailand (BOT) was first set up as the Thai National Banking Bureau. The Bank of Thailand Act was promulgated on 28 April 1942 vesting upon the Bank of Thailand the responsibility for all central banking functions. The Bank of Thailand started operations on 10 December 1942.

Sounds just like the Federal Reserve to me.

Now FinCEN is not part of the Federal Reserve and none of these bodies can make law but they sure can interpret the law and they have. The Bank of Thailand's opinion is that bitcoin is illegal. FinCEN's opinion is that bitcoin is money.

As a matter of fact the Bank of Thailand works hand in hand with FinCEN as they are both members of FATF
http://www.fatf-gafi.org/pages/asiapacificgrouponmoneylaunderingapg.html
http://www.fincen.gov/international/fatf/

Now tell me again how FinCEN's opinion is any different than BOT's opinion in terms of how it affects users of bitcoin. Are you really trying to say that BOT has no authority regarding money and Thailand?

Or are you just jazzed about the misuse of the English word "law" or "legal" in this context?

mrb

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1028

Guidance is not law.

Besides, FinCEN is part of the US government, whereas the Bank of Thailand is not part of the government.

Viceroy

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 501

Quote from: mrb on August 02, 2013, 05:42:07 PM

Viceroy, every single one of these articles you quoted has the "Bank of Thailand" as its source. And you completely missed the main point of this thread that the "Bank of Thailand" has no legal power to declare Bitcoin illegal.

Yes the media is wrong. They are wrong more often than you think...

Nor does FinCEN have ANY ability to make law... but they have every right to offer guidance. Tell me how that is in any way different. Thailand's regulating body (the body that regulates all banks) has decided that bitcoin is an illegal currency and will not authorize any of it's banks to trade in it.

In America we have the Department of Treasury overseeing all banks through its FinCEN unit. I do not see any difference in why we should give FinCEN's guidance any more credence or why we should ignore the guidance of the Bank of Thailand which is the regulating authority on the matter.

mrb

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1028

Viceroy, every single one of these articles you quoted has the "Bank of Thailand" as its source. And you completely missed the main point of this thread that the "Bank of Thailand" has no legal power to declare Bitcoin illegal.

Yes the media is wrong. They are wrong more often than you think...

Viceroy

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 501

Quote from: ?? on ??

They all have the same "source".
Crappy journalism at its finest.

No doubt, but journalism has been declining for decades the lack of original reporting is nothing new. The core statement remains:

"The ruling means it is illegal to buy and sell bitcoins, buy or sell any goods or services in exchange for bitcoins, send any bitcoins to anyone outside of Thailand, or receive bitcoins from anyone outside the country".

https://bitcoin.co.th/news/

At the conclusion of the meeting senior members of the Foreign Exchange Administration and Policy Department advised that due to lack of existing applicable laws, capital controls and the fact that Bitcoin straddles multiple financial facets the following Bitcoin activities are illegal in Thailand:

Buying Bitcoins
Selling Bitcoins
Buying any goods or services in exchange for Bitcoins
Selling any goods or services for Bitcoins
Sending Bitcoins to anyone located outside of Thailand
Receiving Bitcoins from anyone located outside of Thailand

Viceroy

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 501

"THAILAND MAKES BITCOINS ILLEGAL BECAUSE ITS LAWS ARE TOO OLD-FASHIONED"
http://www.fastcompany.com/3015007/fast-feed/thailand-makes-bitcoins-illegal-because-its-laws-are-too-old-fashioned

"A bitcoin company says the virtual currency is illegal in Thailand"
http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2013/07/29/bitcoin-now-illegal-in-thailand/?mod=MW_latest_news

"Thai central bank rules Bitcoin to be illegal"
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-07/29/bitcoin-illegal-in-thailand

Well somebody better go tell the news media that bitcoin is not illegal because it certainly looks illegal...

http://thainews.prd.go.th/centerweb/newsen/NewsDetail?NT01_NewsID=WNECO5607300010005

https://bitcoin.co.th/news/

polarhei

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 250

Firing it up

Ithink, lots of facts have been masking for years. Not only that. Mining, do something privately cannot be blocked as this is yout wish, a contract unless there is legal statement issued by governments, there is no document mentioning this.

NamLaLai

newbie

Activity: 33

Merit: 0

ความไม่ย่อท้อคือหนทางเอาชนะอุปสรรค... "when the going gets tough, the tough get going" Wink

ninjaboon

legendary

Activity: 2128

Merit: 1002

I bet there will be some positive news on this area next month.

TheButterZone

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 1032

RIP Mommy

http://codinginmysleep.com/bitcoin-illegal-in-thailand-sort-of-not-really-maybe/

dree12

legendary

Activity: 1246

Merit: 1077

Quote from: fellowtraveler on July 29, 2013, 06:16:05 PM

Hey if you guys want to find out for sure, why don't you just ask the Bank of Thailand directly to confirm or deny this nasty rumor about them?

http://www.bot.or.th/English/Feedback/_layouts/Application/Feedback/Feedback.aspx

I tried that—it doesn't work. There's an error.

I've concluded that I'm not fit to read legalese. I located the actual legislation here. A cursory glance seems to indicate that the Bank, or at least officials appointed by the Bank, does indeed have the authority to regulate "foreign currency". Can anyone who is more well-versed in law read this and confirm?

fellowtraveler

sr. member

Activity: 440

Merit: 251

Hey if you guys want to find out for sure, why don't you just ask the Bank of Thailand directly to confirm or deny this nasty rumor about them?

http://www.bot.or.th/English/Feedback/_layouts/Application/Feedback/Feedback.aspx

turtle83

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 250

Supersonic

Quote from: mrb on July 29, 2013, 04:52:27 PM

Again, this does not mean BOT has power to make Bitcoin illegal. They can make "suggestions" to the government. They can "advise" them. But they cannot write laws. For example BOT enforces the Exchange Control Act (which was enacted into law by the government, not by BOT), and this Act, unless changed by the government, does not prohibit Bitcoin.

The day this Act will be changed, or another will be written, to prohibit Bitcoin, will be the day Bitcoin is illegal in Thailand. Until then Bitcoin is legal.

Ok I stand corrected, but BOT has power to treat Bitcoin as currency... I am not much into legal stuff, but my understanding is that in general Thais do not need to update laws to prohibit new stuff, rather they need to update the laws if they need to allow it.

mrb

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1028

Quote from: turtle83 on July 29, 2013, 03:15:51 PM

Well not really. Bank of Thailand is not comparable to Bank Of America but rather to the Federal Reserve in USA. One does not simply open an account with BOT. Other Thai banks open an account with BOT.

Correct.

Quote from: turtle83 on July 29, 2013, 03:15:51 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Thailand#Roles_and_Responsibilities

Quote

It defines its roles as:
Print and issue banknotes and other security documents
Promote monetary stability and formulate monetary policies
Manage the BOT’s assets
Provide banking facilities to the government and act as the registrar for the government bonds
Provide banking facilities for the financial institutions
Establish or Support the establishment of payment system
Supervise and examine the financial institutions
Manage the country’s foreign exchange rate under the foreign exchange system and manage assets in the currency reserve according to the Currency Act
Control the foreign exchange according to the exchange control act

The post (if true) sounds like BOT's assessment of the laws and they "advised" the exchange that Bitcoin is illegal. They probably have the power to make (unenforceable) policy with regards to Bitcoin...

Again, this does not mean BOT has power to make Bitcoin illegal. They can make "suggestions" to the government. They can "advise" them. But they cannot write laws. For example BOT enforces the Exchange Control Act (which was enacted into law by the government, not by BOT), and this Act, unless changed by the government, does not prohibit Bitcoin.

The day this Act will be changed, or another will be written, to prohibit Bitcoin, will be the day Bitcoin is illegal in Thailand. Until then Bitcoin is legal.

turtle83

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 250

Supersonic

Quote from: TheButterZone on July 29, 2013, 02:49:41 PM

So essentially this is like only Bank Of America saying "Bitcoin is illegal" and then everyone taking that as fact.

Well not really. Bank of Thailand is not comparable to Bank Of America but rather to the Federal Reserve in USA. One does not simply open an account with BOT. Other Thai banks open an account with BOT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Thailand#Roles_and_Responsibilities

Quote

It defines its roles as:
Print and issue banknotes and other security documents
Promote monetary stability and formulate monetary policies
Manage the BOT’s assets
Provide banking facilities to the government and act as the registrar for the government bonds
Provide banking facilities for the financial institutions
Establish or Support the establishment of payment system
Supervise and examine the financial institutions
Manage the country’s foreign exchange rate under the foreign exchange system and manage assets in the currency reserve according to the Currency Act
Control the foreign exchange according to the exchange control act

The post (if true) sounds like BOT's assessment of the laws and they "advised" the exchange that Bitcoin is illegal. They probably have the power to make (unenforceable) policy with regards to Bitcoin... that is if it is recognized as currency.

kuusj98

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

I <3 VW Beetles

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-07/29/bitcoin-illegal-in-thailand

I havent read it completely, but BTC is in NO way illegal, remember that people!

joesmoe2012

hero member

Activity: 882

Merit: 501

Ching-Chang;Ding-Dong

Quote from: mrb on July 29, 2013, 02:24:37 PM

Bitcoin was not ruled illegal in Thailand. There is poor reporting and interpretation going on. The Bank of Thailand has no legal power. A few senior members of the bank saying something is illegal does not make it illegal. The Foreign Exchange Administration and Policy Department are merely departments of the bank, not branches of the legislative government of Thailand.

This is a scenario similar to what happened in 2011 in France: MtGox's bank closed their account saying that a Bitcoin exchange was "illegal/unauthorized". MtGox sued the bank. And courts sided with MtGox and forced the bank to re-open their account: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-in-france-first-legal-decision-directly-related-to-bitcoin-41317

Same thing here. The Bank of Thailand saying "this is illegal" does not make it illegal. They are just an institution, who does not represent the government, who displays a hostile attitude toward Bitcoin. Nothing more.

Wow thanks for the heads up, I'm suprised more people from thailand haven't spoken up yet to correct the misconception.

TheButterZone

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 1032

RIP Mommy

So essentially this is like only Bank Of America saying "Bitcoin is illegal" and then everyone taking that as fact.

mrb

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1028

Bitcoin was not ruled illegal in Thailand. There is poor reporting and interpretation going on. The Bank of Thailand has no legal power. A few senior members of the bank saying something is illegal does not make it illegal. The Foreign Exchange Administration and Policy Department are merely departments of the bank, not branches of the legislative government of Thailand.

This is a scenario similar to what happened in 2011 in France: MtGox's bank closed their account saying that a Bitcoin exchange was "illegal/unauthorized". MtGox sued the bank. And courts sided with MtGox and forced the bank to re-open their account: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-in-france-first-legal-decision-directly-related-to-bitcoin-41317

Same thing here. The Bank of Thailand saying "this is illegal" does not make it illegal. They are just an institution, who does not represent the government, who displays a hostile attitude toward Bitcoin. Nothing more.

Topic: Bitcoin is legal in Thailand (Read 8308 times)