Money I believe is a signalling system within a society to expend resources, the proof of work is analogous to the day to day work that everyone must do to prove that they have been of some benefit to someone and therefore have earned the right to acrue points to signal release of resources.
But bitcoin is definitely memory... it tracks down and maintains a snapshot of the economy for everyone to see and to interpret for future action... this type of memory is truly mind-blowing.
You could call receipts and business records memory as well, but the fact that it is public and reviewable by anyone makes a huge difference. In essence treating Bitcoin as memory could create further public memory spaces with condensed information occuring in real time, maybe side chains built on top of Bitcoin like Namecoin; These side chains work as memory for all sorts of data that needs to be considered and interpreted sooner or later as an ongoing ledger of truth.
Topic: Bitcoin is Memory (Read 3582 times)
Money Laundering is an act of hiding the source of money by creating layers or methods of obfuscation. Bitcoin doesn't have to be considered a currency for it to be used. Something doesn't have to be a currency in order to be used by a launder. The fact of the matter is that any thing can be used. Cash flow through legit business can create be used. Currency in Currency out. Bitcoin does allow for Currency in and currency out.
At the same time that doesn't mean that just because someone uses it for that propose that everyone uses it for that purpose. Gambling chips could be used, gold or silver can be used, US Dollars can be used, networks of promissory can be used.
The identity checks at the exchanges are put there to restrict the money laundering with in Bitcoin and I for one think its a great idea. This doesn't mean that people cannot still use Bitcoin for illegal or illicit things.
What Bitcoin does have is public ledger so if someone wanted to use it for laundering they would have to overcome this. I think the reality is that while some thing it would be a good method to launder, I think law enforcement hopes launders use Bitcoin to launder, so they have a a way to track the transactions.
http://bitcoinsbs.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/anonymous-transactions/
At the same time that doesn't mean that just because someone uses it for that propose that everyone uses it for that purpose. Gambling chips could be used, gold or silver can be used, US Dollars can be used, networks of promissory can be used.
The identity checks at the exchanges are put there to restrict the money laundering with in Bitcoin and I for one think its a great idea. This doesn't mean that people cannot still use Bitcoin for illegal or illicit things.
What Bitcoin does have is public ledger so if someone wanted to use it for laundering they would have to overcome this. I think the reality is that while some thing it would be a good method to launder, I think law enforcement hopes launders use Bitcoin to launder, so they have a a way to track the transactions.
http://bitcoinsbs.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/anonymous-transactions/
I hope regulators will be open to your position.
If I find a diamond ring, no matter what I call it, I owe taxes in the USA. Crazy as that sounds.
If I find a diamond ring, no matter what I call it, I owe taxes in the USA. Crazy as that sounds.
I fully appreciate that. I think the key point to take away from this is that you can't successfully tax or regulate a concept. I'm sure you can try (war on terror/poverty/etc...). Could you tax/regulate happiness or anger? How about forgiveness or greed? If not, then why do you think governments can regulate memory? Do they tax or regulate other forms of computer based memory? How's that working out for them? (think mp3/movies/applications)
True. can it be done? Is another question. Hell, billions of $USD are laundered and used by criminals each year, and that using existing banking with money they have complete control over.
I don't think their regulation has anything to do with their concern over Bitcoin as a money laundering tool. As you said, billions of USD are laundered every year using their very own fiat. I think this has more to do with the perceived threat to their systems of finance and debt money. The IMF (US puppet organization) basically owns a large portion of the earth through their issuance of loans to needy countries in return for access to their basic societal and government systems (revamping education systems to be in line with US backed corporate for-profit institutions like CollegeBoard, energy contracts, military organizations, etc...). This is just one example of how the United States exerts its influence through its currency. I'm not even going to go into the Central Banking system as I'm sure we're all relatively familiar with that nightmare.
I hope regulators will be open to your position.
If I find a diamond ring, no matter what I call it, I owe taxes in the USA. Crazy as that sounds.
If I find a diamond ring, no matter what I call it, I owe taxes in the USA. Crazy as that sounds.
I fully appreciate that. I think the key point to take away from this is that you can't successfully tax or regulate a concept. I'm sure you can try (war on terror/poverty/etc...). Could you tax/regulate happiness or anger? How about forgiveness or greed? If not, then why do you think governments can regulate memory? Do they tax or regulate other forms of computer based memory? How's that working out for them? (think mp3/movies/applications)
True. can it be done? Is another question. Hell, billions of $USD are laundered and used by criminals each year, and that using existing banking with money they have complete control over.
I hope regulators will be open to your position.
If I find a diamond ring, no matter what I call it, I owe taxes in the USA. Crazy as that sounds.
If I find a diamond ring, no matter what I call it, I owe taxes in the USA. Crazy as that sounds.
I fully appreciate that. I think the key point to take away from this is that you can't successfully tax or regulate a concept. I'm sure you can try (war on terror/poverty/etc...). Could you tax/regulate happiness or anger? How about forgiveness or greed? If not, then why do you think governments can regulate memory? Do they tax or regulate other forms of computer based memory? How's that working out for them? (think mp3/movies/applications)
I hope regulators will be open to your position.
If I find a diamond ring, no matter what I call it, I owe taxes in the USA. Crazy as that sounds.
If I find a diamond ring, no matter what I call it, I owe taxes in the USA. Crazy as that sounds.
I've always recognized the definition of money being a medium of exchange. By this definition, bitcoins are definitely money, because they are a medium of exchange.
So shells, sticks, stones, prostitutes' bodies are also money?
Bitcoin is not money.
I agree.
Funny thing when you ask different people what ''money'' factually is they will give you different answers:
If you ask me I will tell that factually money is pieces of paper.
Somebody else will tell you it's pieces of round metal.
Yet a banker will tell you it's digits stored in a server.
A hooker in Nepal will tell you money is her body - that's how she pays for food, etc.
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Can something be at the same time a piece of paper and a piece of metal and a body? I rather doubt it.
Can something be at the same time a human and a desk and a brick? I rather doubt it.
If someone disagrees, can they empirically prove it is possible for them to be at the same time a human and not a human?
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Maybe ''money'' as described / defined by the regulators, scholars is a bit flawed / imperfect / completely wrong? Just food for thought.
I've always recognized the definition of money being a medium of exchange. By this definition, bitcoins are definitely money, because they are a medium of exchange.
By that reasoning US dollars are just as much "memory" as Bitcoin. I think its certainly a perspective you can take, but it isn't any more correct than calling it a "currency" really.
It's shared public memory that is totally focused on exchanges of value: aka currency.
It's shared public memory that is totally focused on exchanges of value: aka currency.
Bitcoin is not money.
I agree.
Funny thing when you ask different people what ''money'' factually is they will give you different answers:
If you ask me I will tell that factually money is pieces of paper.
Somebody else will tell you it's pieces of round metal.
Yet a banker will tell you it's digits stored in a server.
A hooker in Nepal will tell you money is her body - that's how she pays for food, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can something be at the same time a piece of paper and a piece of metal and a body? I rather doubt it.
Can something be at the same time a human and a desk and a brick? I rather doubt it.
If someone disagrees, can they empirically prove it is possible for them to be at the same time a human and not a human?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe ''money'' as described / defined by the regulators, scholars is a bit flawed / imperfect / completely wrong? Just food for thought.
It's time we grow a pair of testicles here.
I agree, FoBoT is gutless.
wow just double posted your topic, sorry man didn't even mean too
mmmm nah this kind of argoment just doesn't work.
it's meant to be a currency, it's used as a currency... then it's a currency.
nitpicking will get you nowhere.
If it functions as a framework of memory (the blockchain etc...), exists in the realm of digitized memory (fundamentally it's transistor states), and is used as a system of memorizing interactions between parties, then it is memory.
Also, this whole business about nitpicking getting you nowhere is absurd. That's all that the law ever was and ever will be: one hugely convoluted semantic shit-fest (that everyone agrees to accept). It's through definition that laws are established. We've been conditioned to think of Bitcoin as a currency, but in reality it's something much more subtle and revolutionary.
Please read the original article I posted before arguing here. This is truly something to take serious note of.
That is interesting but worst case is people will just have to use it in secret.
governments (those with the guns/power) can do what they will, logical arguments will not be a part of what they decide to do
anything that threatens the oligarchy will be threatened
anything that threatens the oligarchy will be threatened
It's time we grow a pair of testicles here. You think we should bend over and take regulation as it comes? It will be regulated away in due time if we take this approach. Bitcoin will be taken to the courts. What I'm arguing is that there will be a huge difference in results if we defend it as a currency instead of what it actually is, a system of memory.
it's meant to be a currency, it's used as a currency... then it's a currency.
nitpicking will get you nowhere.
governments (those with the guns/power) can do what they will, logical arguments will not be a part of what they decide to do
anything that threatens the oligarchy will be threatened
anything that threatens the oligarchy will be threatened
It will be regulated away in due time if we take this approach. Bitcoin will be taken to the courts. What I'm arguing is that there will be a huge difference in results if we defend it as a currency instead of what it actually is, a system of memory.
governments (those with the guns/power) can do what they will, logical arguments will not be a part of what they decide to do
anything that threatens the oligarchy will be threatened
anything that threatens the oligarchy will be threatened
Thank you.
One of the best papers I've read on Bitcoin. Mandatory reading for anyone who's involved. They explain why Bitcoin cannot be regulated under statutes concerning money laundering, namely because it cannot be narrowly defined as a currency. Bitcoin is not money. It is memory. This should be a sticky at the top of this thread.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2275730
Enjoy!
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2275730
Enjoy!
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